Could I have found the problem?

[redfan]

Hi Sheila,

Well it's been 2 days, they have not been any more sleepy than usual, but their is a marked difference in the amount of time they are playing (and it's  play).  They are spending a good couple hours more a day awake and either playing or bumming about lol.

Yeah Animed is excellent, will be using them again.

Hopefully things just continue to improve   everyone, I shall be posting some other topics soon 

Would have replied sooner, but the site seemed to be down the last day or so.  Cheers again guys

[sheilarose]

Oh well done Redfan - excellent work 

You might find no sign at all, but most likely the boys may either sick up a stomachful of dead worms or poo them out into their tray.

You might find they sleep a bit more than usual for the next 24 hours but the worms will be paralysed almost instantaneously. The boys will begin feeling more comfortable the minute the worms unhook. Then it's just a matter of gravity 

That supplier is brilliant isn't it - my stuff arrived yesterday which was almost unbelievable.

If there are still poorly symptoms after two or three days come back and let us know, please? We're no substitute for a good vet when cats are really suffering, but we can usually help with the day to day issues.

[redfan]

Update - The Drontal came yesterday which was very fast really.  We have just now given them to the cats.  Slushy being 4kg+ has had a whole one, we only gave Gizmo a half tab (he's about 3kg or so) as before want to err on side of caution with Gizmo given the little problems he's had lately.

The good news, we successfully managed to mix them in with the wet food (the new Whiskas Gravy one) and to my surprise they both ate the tabs without any issues.  We checked the whole area thoroughly too.  Very pleased about that

Should I look out for anything in particular now, such as dead worms in poo or if they have a reaction (what would indicate this)?

Cheers

[redfan]

Hippykitty - I am pretty experienced with fish, also member of a fish forum .. I know the stuff in the flea can is very Lethal to fish.  I did ask a vet about it and the advice was given the cats have very little access to the room to just leave that room alone.

Cheers for the input

[Hippykitty]

I'm not a fish expert, I just know there are warnings about it on the can. Maybe ask a vet or perhaps there's a purrs person who keeps fish and might kn

At one time the word "chocolate" was filtered to "healthfood" 

[redfan]

  yup I have been buttered .. which is kind of cool for me, I like South Park and my fav character is Butters 

[sheilarose]

 

Haha. You've been Buttered! That's our Purrs swearguard. You won't believe some of the replacements we get - hilarious reading.

[redfan]

Hippykitty - I was actually going to leave the fish room alone as the door is always closed That should be ok yeah?

The boys are getting the snip in 2 - 3 weeks poor butter  though I know it needs doing.

Gillian - Thanks for the tip

Gill - Thanks its what I thought anyway.

[Hippykitty]

When you spray your house, cover the fish well.

Are they booked for the snip yet? I know men cross their legs when this subject is broached, as if it's going to be done to them, but it really is best for your cats. I once lived in a shared house where there was an entire tom: he would go missing for days and come back looking awful, thin and tatty, sleep solidly for a few days then be off again. He smelt! Honestly, that's no life for a cat, even though you may be thinking about all the nookie he was getting!

On average, entire toms have half the lifespan of a neutered tom. They get killed on roads, are more likely to become FIV/FeLV, get infections from fighting wounds etc etc And it's not "a short life but a happy one".

On my soapbox. I'm really into getting cats of both sexes done. You'll find your males turn into much nicer cats when they've had the snip.

[Gillian Harvey]

Webbox treat sticks are also great for getting pills down 'em  http://www.webboxpetfood.com/site/content_cat_treats.php - you can get them in most supermarkets. Just break a piece off and squish the pill inside it 

[Gill (sneakiefeline)]

no question is ever daft and no they wont catch your cold 

[redfan]

Sheila - Thanks for the advice, I will attempt the butter technique  

Gill - Yeah it's the house spray and not for the a spray for cats .. tbh not sure I would use a spray on flea treatment anyway ... I have fish tanks so using anything that increases my contamination is a big no no.

Thanks again guys .. and here is a another daft (unrelated) question, Sure this has been covered before but may as well ask here as doing this reply.  Both me and Mrs Red are full of a really nasty cold atm ... I am right in thinking cats cannot contract human virus's?

Thanks once again guys 

[sheilarose]

Thanks, Gill.
Indorex is a house spray that Redfan has ordered. It's the one my vet recommends and really does work with just one application lasting 12 months.

Come to think of it I haven't seen an aerosol cat-on spray for donkeys years - there used to be one called Nuvan Top we used in the eighties but as you rightly point out - the cats (and rabbits back then) hated it and were paranoid of all spray cans after one session.

Can you get milbemax without prescription?

[Gill (sneakiefeline)]

I use a drop on wormer from the vets and know from two vets that you need 2 weeks between that and a drop on flea product.

Millebax is the mini wormer pill and much easieer to get into a cat cos of its size.

Purrrrrrrrrrsonally I would not recommend a flea spray for a cat as they hate it and remember. My huge Misa is terrified if I pick up a can of coke or a house spray and srtat shaking it. Its so sad and it goes back to his bad past.

If its a house flea spray you are talking about, I apologize for butting in 

[sheilarose]

A bit of experience for you here - You'll find the wormers don't go into food, Redfan.

The pink antibiotics are palatable so the cat doesn't taste them. Wormers are bitter and nasty tasting - don't waste your dose trying to mix it with food cos he'll not eat it. Best just to smear a big knob of butter on the tablet and get it on the back of his tongue.

There are palatable wormers - Panacur make a granular one, which you dose over three days, but the one's you've ordered need to be given in tablet form.

[redfan]

Dawn - Thanks puts me at rest a little

Sheila - As top Dawn thanks re the eye thing.  I do think it maybe something to do with him a little under the weather.  As for piling them, Not too worried as Gizmo was generally ok with the antibiotics he was on, seemed to just take them when mixed with gravy food

They do love butter too so that maybe an option.

Will be discussing the vet situation with mrs redfan (sounds funny that lol).  Many thanks again guys, will update as this goes on

[sheilarose]

I think I would do the exact same thing, Redfan. 

Dawn's right - my cats get black bogies in their eyes and it does look like crusty dried blood. Nothing to be concerned about and may actually be a symptom of him being run down due to the worms. It's not an exact science but certainly tackling the worms head on will make him feel much better and then see what symptoms are left afterwards.

2-3 weeks is fine for the Frontline to be out of the system. You can use whatever you prefer now. Drontal is an excellent all rounder. You'll find good clips on youtube and eHow showing how to get pills down him.
 
As they're so young, make it a special treat for them - have some cooked chicken ready to stuff down them when they've been pilled - it stops them feeling like its a punishment and keeps them loving you.

Oh - get Mrs Redfan to buy some butter - it will help those tablets go down a treat if you smear it on (and there's less chance of him storing it up to be spat out later - they do that you know)

As for changing vet - well I'd be tempted to register the boys at a second practise and see if you like them better, especially as they are due to have their peas podded any minute!  You may wish to contact your local Rescue for a recommendation?
 
Any new vet will request the old vet's treatment list as a matter of course so don't be phased if this happens. I have my lot registered at the local vet nearest to me (a large and very costly chain vets practise beginning with G), but actually prefer another practise a few miles away, as I've had several bad experiences locally with very poor veterinary practise, high prices and unnecessary treatment.
Happy as Larry with the new bloke, can't believe I waited so long to move and so glad I did. 

Did we cover everything? Oh the worms in Poo - sometimes you might see one poke its head out but not always.

[Dawn F]

I shouldn't worry about the eyes - the sleep from cats eyes is very dark brown and can look like blood if wiped with something damp, I had a former feral who needed his eyes cleaning every day so don't be too alarmed on that front

[redfan]

Hi, The frontline was about 2 - 3 weeks ago.  Thanks for the link, have had a little browse

I can see what your saying regarding the contra-indications of using Droncit Spot on , however I am going to use Drontal tabs which I assume will be very similar and should pose no real issues.

Cheers

[sheilarose]

How long ago did the Frontline go on, Redfan?

ADD EDIT

here's a section from the contra-indications for Droncit Spot-on

2. Droncit Spot-on 20mg Solution
Praziquantel, the active ingredient of Droncit® Spot-on is a pyrazinoisoquinoline derivative used widely as an anthelmintic for both human and veterinary medicine.
Praziquantel is effective against all stages of development of intestinal tapeworms. The substance is very rapidly absorbed and distributed throughout the parasite. Both in vivo and in vitro studies have shown that praziquantel causes severe damage to the parasite integument, resulting in contraction and paralysis. There is an almost instantaneous tetanic contraction of the parasite musculature and a rapid vacuolisation of the syncytial tegument. This rapid contraction has been explained by changes in divalent cation fluxes, particularly calcium.
Praziquantel is absorbed very rapidly and almost completely in the stomach and small intestine. Studies of the behaviour following oral administration have been conduced in rats, dogs, monkeys, sheep and humans. Depending on species, maximum serum levels are reached within 0.3 to 2 hours. The chemical is evenly distributed to all organs. The elimination half-lives of 14C-praziquantel and its metabolites are between 2 and 3 hours in rats, dogs, monkeys and sheep.
Praziquantel is rapidly metabolised in the liver in both humans and animals with the 4-hydroxycyclohexyl derivative as the main metabolite. Praziquantel is completely eliminated from the body within 48 hours; irreversible binding to body constituents has not been observed. Elimination is in the form of metabolites with virtually no parent compound excreted. Between 40% and 71% of the substance is eliminated in the urine and 13%-30% in the faeces.
No incompatibility has been observed between this product at the recommended dose and a range of common veterinary treatments.

 It's this last sentence that suggests the two products would not combin to give you any trouble.

Also, have a read of this chap's advice - he's a vet in Florida where they get superfleas and ticks, so he knows what he's talking about.

http://animalpetdoctor.homestead.com/Fleas.html

[redfan]

Thanks guys

Right then ... HippyKitty & Sheila - I'm trying to do what's right here, and I too have had some doubts regarding the advice received thus far, so yeah guess I'm going on reputation. 

Gizmo is rather better now however not completely 100% tbh.  Now is where I ask "daft" questions so bear with me here.

Would you guys agree that I am better taking this into my own hands and worming anyway? (not trying to get you to take responsibility for it lol) I have been considering this anyway.

Is it normal not to see visible worms in poo?  I did see this rice like thing protruding from Slushy bum last week.  Also, today Gizmo is not eating all of his dry food, he polishes off the wet food np.  Equally I have just had to wipe his left eye which was very wet (got a small amount dry blood from corner of eye) this was just after he woke up from sleeping.  Should this concern me?

Basically I am trying to do the right thing without taking him to the vets again (as this will only further stress him) however if it's worth doing, should I consider a different one for a 2nd opinion?

Many thanks and hope that was all laid out so easy enough to understand 

UPDATE - Have now ordered 2 Drontal Worming tablets and the flea spray from Animed, thanks for the link cannot believe the price difference.  I estimate Gizmo is about 2.5kg so just going to give a half tablet (site says half tablet for up to 2kg) will this be ok (sooner err on side of caution)? 

[sheilarose]

Hi Redfan.

I've re-read your first post an honestly say I'm a bit concerned that your vet didn't immediately treat for worms - all the symptoms you describe could well be down to the infestation - especially as he did find fleas and all vets know that tapeworm is transmitted by fleas. The two almost always co-exist. Cats with severe worm infections do become tired, lethargic, diarrhea ridden, and because of their low health can be prone to infection so could display a higher than normal temperature too. 

Don't want to be presumptive but I had a vet once who made a habit of stringing out treatments for his own ends, while my cats continued to suffer pain...I do hope that's not the case here. 

Depends if you can effectively "pill" your cats or not - I suspect this isn't something you've tried before. It's not the easiest skill to master and some cats just will not be pilled, so be ready for this. 

If you CAN give them pills, this is surely the most effective way because pills such as Drontal contain ingredients that kill all known parasitic worms in cats. You dose by weight, so make sure you buy the correct mg pills or you may risk under/overdosing the boys. 

If you can't get to grips with pilling, and believe me we've all been there and failed at that, I use Droncit spot-on which you apply in the exact same way as Frontline - just behind the neck on bare skin. Droncit spot-on ONLY kills tapeworm, but as this is the most common worm to trouble for in/out cats (due to it's eggs being transmitted by orally ingested fleas) it is a pretty good second best. 

I tend to use Droncit spot-on three times a year (larger cats need two tubes), and when my cats go for their yearly vaccs/check-up, I ask the vet to pill them a multi-wormer (£7) so they get a proper clean out annually.

Droncit spot-on, Drontal tablets and your regular flea treatments (Frontline Combo, Advantage, Fiprospot are all recommended) are available without prescription from Animed or VetUK. I find Animed to be cheapest and very prompt in delivery.

http://www.animeddirect.co.uk/cats/worming

If you think the fleas are now in your home environment, order a can of Indorex while you're at it. You will almost certainly need it when the warm weather finally arrives. One application will clear their beds and play areas of fleas, eggs and larvae for a whole year.

Don't be afraid to ask questions, even what you might think are daft ones - it's the cats that matter and we are all learning every single day, and all find the need to ask "daft" questions from time to time. 

[Hippykitty]

I tend to agree with Sheilarose. Worming tablets (not Profender drops) from the vet would be a good idea at this time.

While things may seem better at the moment, if Gizmo still has worms in his gut, they'll be taking lots of nourishment which he should be getting. Tapeworms also attach to the wall of the digestive system and generally make the cat run down. Things will get worse if the worms are left alone.

While you're at it, get worming pills for both cats - from the vet, not from a shop - it's likely they're both infested.

Though Gizmo may seem a little run down for a day or so after treatment, this will quickly pass and is normal. There are lots of worms being killed in his system.

Also, get Slushy neutered asap.

Unless you use Profender, which is applied to the skin like Frontline, there's no similarity between the way Frontline and wormers work. I think your vet is giving you strange advice. Being in practice for a long time is no guarantee of quality.

[redfan]

Hi Sheila, Yup the vet is very much qualified and has had his practice over 20 years.  My partner has always used him (her and her ex had trained greyhounds and had a small unusual animal farm) and the surgery is the most popular in this town.

I do agree the advice does sound a little strange, however at this point the boys seem to be doing ok, I will be keeping a close eye on things.  I may even decide to try worming myself in the week or so.  What wormer would you say is the best? 

Not sure he feels the frontline will interfere with worming med however his point was that it's still possible the frontline made Gizmo ill to start with so he feels it's better all round to leave off adding any other treatments for the time being.  He was very satisfied that whilst I am not seeing evidence of worms in poo and they are not losing lots of weight then it's ok to leave it a little while.

Cheers

[sheilarose]

Sorry, I totally disagree. If your cats have tapeworm, they need to be treated asap.

Are you sure your vet is qualified? This is very dubious advice.

Worms are making your cats sick, and its not something that Frontline treatment will interfere with. 

[redfan]

To Update -

Gizmo seems to be doing so much better now, he is playing and his poo is again solid.  Did check with the vet regarding worming and he has asked that we just increase the food (to offset what the worms are eating) and leave medicating for another month.  This is due to the fact he is still unsure whether the Frontline is what had caused the problems and does not want to introduce more chemicals which could potentially take everything back to square 1 again.

I can see his point and it is what was concerning me.  As above, Gizmo and Slushy are doing pretty well now so leaving another month or so is not a major issue.  Obviously I shall continue to watch closely and act accordingly.

HippyKitty - That's an interesting idea but not sure either of them are going all the way as such (this just sounds wrong lol) however the vet did also say it's most likely the behaviour issues are caused by Slushy dominating Gizmo so much.  Many thanks for the input.

I will be posting more often soon .. currently in between broadband supplier so using a dongle which is obviously more costly.  Will link a video of them I took yesterday too when the new broadband is up and running this week

Cheers guys

[Hippykitty]

I realise I'm a bit late on this thread, but I wondered if it might be useful to take a sample of the slushy poo to vet - I'll bet it contains semen.    Assuming that Slushy was "going all the way"!

Apart from that, it seems that your cats are now doing fine.

[redfan]

Thanks Gill

I missed the vet calling as I had to go out, so will be chasing up the worming thing in the morning.

Many thanks to you all for your continued support and advice.

[Gill (sneakiefeline)]

Yes thats definately worms........tapeworms.

[redfan]

Thanks Gillian I will maybe look into that The vet is calling this evening so I can discuss things with him.

As an update, I have noticed what looks like a piece of rice protruding from Slushy's bum so assuming they both have worms.  Will be worming them both this evening.  Also re the poo, it's actually improved a lot this weekend, he is now having pretty solid motions again and has even been a lot more alert than this last week.  Though still not his crazy self.  Will be asking the vet about getting Slushy the snip (still want to hold off with Gizmo till he's 100%) as the dominance thing is ridiculous now and am blaming this for a lot of the issues re Gizmo.

Equally in support of the worm thing, have noticed they are both losing weight, classic sign of worms I guess.

Thank you for you comment too Nicky, duly noted

[Gillian Harvey]

Would it be worth me asking the vet for something to help stop the wet poo that I can pick up as I really do not want to take him in again (been 3 times this last week already and sure that's not helping either)?

Also, should I given this poo situation just feed dry food (they usually get a mix of Whiskas kitten biscuits and whiskas wet food)?

Personally I'd drop the dry - Whiskas dry is full of cereals which can be a problem as cats were never meant to eat plant proteins.  I'd maybe try him on plain cooked chicken for a few days to see if that helps, then slowly re-introduce the wet food. 

[nickynoo93]

Hi and welcome, sorry you are having problems. I have no advice as these ladies are brilliant at knowing what to suggest.

The only thing I will add is that although My 3 cats are housecats they do get wormed and flead, Poppy seemed to collect fleas when she went to the vets, this caused her an allergy which made her very sore.

They only go into the garden under supervision. When we got the 1st 2 we lived in a flat.

Nicky

[redfan]

Thanks again

Gill - Thanks, I will deff ask the vet about the protexin and the probiotic yoghurt, many thanks again.

Heather - I will ask the vet to recommend a wormer, I do actually have something we bought last summer (did not open it) so will try and find it and check if ok when I contact the vet later today

Will update later today once have discussed all this with the vet.

Cheers guys

[heather sullivan]

All cats, as far as I know, even house cats, need worming. Fleas can transmit tapeworm so I would def get them both wormed. They can also inherit worms from their mothers .

http://www.pet-happy.com/is-it-necessary-to-worm-an-indoor-cat/
http://www.pets.ca/cats/tips/tip-63-worms-in-kittens-worms-in-cats/

[Gill (sneakiefeline)]

The way to cure runny tums is thro probiotics and the quickest way rather than order online is probiotic yogart.

The best probiotic that you can get from the vet is call protexin and can be bought onlne from Vet UK but its quite expensive.

If they eat dairy products like you say , yogart will be fine if they will eat it.

However if you are going to the vet anyway or you could ring him and ask for 10 protexin, you mix half a capsule into wet food daily. Just once a day and you will find its a miricle worker 

[redfan]

Thanks for the replies

Heather - no they have never been wormed (did not think required as house cats?) he does not have an itchy bum though and I have never seen anything in the poo.

Gill - not sure about the yoghurt tbh, think they would eat it as they love catmilk.  I did wonder whether its the fact he eats pretty much everything including stealing our food when he can (butter, cheese that kind of thing)?

Would not just be safer at this point to see if the vet can give me something for him? .. bit worried the yoghurt could make things worse tbh.

Many thanks for all the advice I'm getting, very happy

[Gill (sneakiefeline)]

Does Gizmo like yogart, try him with some probiotic yoghart and that should help him harden but will take a few days.

I would  not change the food.

If both boys eat the yogart not a problem unlress you know they cant tolerate milk.

[heather sullivan]

have they been wormed? Worms can cause runny poos, anaemia (which makes them lethargic) and also make them sick. Worms also give them an itchy bottom

[redfan]

Many thanks Snarf,

I think your right regarding the hormone thing and it gives me great confidence in talking to the vet about this.

To update - Gizmo has just been to the tray (2nd time today as mentioned this diarrhoea has not increased his frequency at all) and hes had a very wet poo again.  I will of course be mentioning this to vet when I update him tomorrow (and pay this last weeks bill ) , however couple of extra questions if thats ok ...

Would it be worth me asking the vet for something to help stop the wet poo that I can pick up as I really do not want to take him in again (been 3 times this last week already and sure that's not helping either)?

Also, should I given this poo situation just feed dry food (they usually get a mix of Whiskas kitten biscuits and whiskas wet food)?

I do not think the diarrhoea is an infection as such as surely Slushy would have picked it up by now, maybe this is also a stress thing (it's only started happening after his last visit to the vet) .. Poor thing, really feel for him atm.

Many thanks again

[snarf]

i think its a fairly good bet that this is at least part of the issue, mounting other males can be a dominance thing so it may be that slushy is doing other things to assert his top-cat position and Gizmos abit downcast about it. it could be entirely hormone overload though! certainly worth mentioning to the vet and maybe getting slushy fixed asap- cats are sexually mature from 4-6months so you have 2 hormone riddled teenage boys!