Pictures of feral cats needed for youtube vid

[Kittybabe (Ruth)]

I think this ends the discussion which both parties seem to agree to so I am locking this thread.

[Hippykitty]

And yes, I agree that this debate should end here. It is becoming circular and isn't achieving anything positive.

[Hippykitty]

BC, I can't help but think that you are deliberately misinterpreting my words. Nowhere in my post do I suggest that you hate feral cats, I just find it hard to get my head around the concept that you can love the cats with whom you live, but would want them dead if they were abandoned strays, or multi-generational ferals. One of my cats was feral, and is now tame, no way would I want her, or her brethren gunned down just because she was in the wrong place and living upon what she could to survive.

I agree that youtube is often used for irrational vlogs, but the link points to a Discovery Channel documentary, with no comment from the person who posted it, other than the blurb mentioning that it is 'a strong documentary' as a warning to anyone with a delicate disposition.

You and I will never agree upon this point, as I see it from the cat's point of view, not that of the endangered wildlife, and don't blame the ferals either for their existence in Australia, or for the demise of the local fauna.

If you loved badgers, would you go badger-baiting? Or agree with the activity? That's what I really don't understand about your attitude. Why are you here, on a cat forum, which promotes the welfare of cats and is a place where those who love and care for them can share this feeling with like-minded people?

[blackcat]

Thanks hippykitty fo re-opening this debate when I think most of us would prefer that it be dropped.
I think you will find that none of my posts suggested I hate ferals. I simpy acknowledge that they are a serious, if not critical problem in Australia where there are slaughtering our native fauna at a rate that can not be sustained without drastic action. I, like the majority of Australians, am not in supoprt of the more extreme behaviours of a minority of people. I do, however, support rapid and humane removal of this and other feral colonies of animals such as goats, camels, pigs, buffalo etc.

What I object to is the assumption, and very clear implication, that this is all Australians who behave in the manner you describe. Furthermore that I personally, suppport the more horrific and barbaric methods that you are likely to find promoted on such unreliable 'brag'-sites as youtube.

If you want to obtain a balanced and scientifically accurate reflection of the threat they impose or the methods used to approach this problem I suggest you look up government sites, or those associated with the more respectable wildlife organisations such as AWC.

[Hippykitty]

It was this link, which is a Discovery Channel documentary about feral cats in Australia, that you need a strong stomach for. It contains images such as cat skins being tanned in order to discover where the feral cat originated from, and far more gruesome images. At some points I had to use the slider to pass these bits and get to the conclusions.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=bd8wB0SjI3c&mode=related&search=

I realise that you opinion about the feral cat won't change, Blackcat, and I still find it strange that anyone could love an animal in one circumstance and not another. They give us unconditional love, surely we owe them and their relatives the same. A feral cat is the same species as the cat you cuddle, I find it hard to imagine how you can love one and want the other exterminated. The existence of ferals isn't their fault, they didn't ask to be abandoned to fend for themselves. IF total extermination via killing is successful in Australia (and I doubt that this policy will work, as cats are swift and fast breeding) they willl be replaced with abandoned cats who will start the circle again. There will always be ferals because humans abandon unwanted unneutered cats, the best we can do is care for them by trapping and homing or TNR, not by killing them. Extermination doesn't work: more cats will fill the vacuum. This has been found to happen when, for example, a feral colony has been cleared from hospital grounds - a new, less stable, colony move in. So the best we can do is stabilise the numbers by TNR.

You say that TNR wouldn't be possible in such a large country and that the introduced cat is more successful at hunting, breeding and surviving, than the native species. That's evolution: natural selection, and can't be stopped, unless you introduce another, more successful species than the cat who preys on cats, and the cycle starts over again. I suspect the cat MAY have been introduced to control the massive rabbit problem in the first place.

We're not as ignorant of the Australian plight as you seem to believe, and the loss of native species is regrettable, but in the final analysis it isn't the fault of the cat, but of man for destroying natural habitats in order to farm sheep. The same thing happened with the Rain Forest for cattle farming.  To me the cat seems to have become a scapegoat.

As for my initial comments about how the cat is vilified in Australia, it is. While doing the image search for my video, I was lead to sites which detailed an enormous antipathy to ferals, bordering on irrational hatred. I accept that this could be the bias of the sites, but it was a view I came across repeatedly.

[Bazsmum]

 

[blackcat]

Told ya!!

[Bazsmum]

  I did it 

I just love it...... 

>Pinkbear......Squaw 

[Pinkbear (Julie)]

My Squaw is in there, Ruth!  There's nothing to worry about.... 

[blackcat]

Ruth, there is nothing there that will upset you. It is an excellent video that gives a clear insight into the plight of the feral cat in England. The backing track is great and the presentation is balanced and well-done. You should watch it. I felt it was an excellent piece of work.

[Bazsmum]

Would love to watch the video link HK but i cannot watch it....call me chicken.....i do think its a good thing your doing tho 

[blackcat]

Thanks Ruth. I appreciate the intervention

[Kittybabe (Ruth)]

Whilst this is indeed an interesting debate it is an emotive one. Having said that let's keep this thread factual and without any kind of personal attack on other forum members.

The forum is an area for reasonable debate. Let's avoid having a thread locked please.

[blackcat]

You obviously represent the minority that view the ferals as vermin, and think they have no right to breathe, or any other animal for that matter that dares to encroach where some humans don't see fit.   

On the contrary. If I viewed ferals as vermin I would not be on this site. Once again, the debate is turning from the factual exchange of information to the subjective abuse of an individual. Judgemental attitudes such as this actually obscure the debate and make it dififcult for view points to be exchanged.

You may not be consciously aware of it, but your environment does contribute to your viewpoint. I would however point out that, since the feral cat population is not controlled here in England, where they are readily observed and accessed and one does not have to travel hundreds of miles off-road to get to them, how would you suggest that the population be controlled in an area where such conditions apply?

I repeat, no animal is vermin, all animals have a right to a healthy life that is free of suffering. not just cats.

[Dawn (DiddyDawn)]

Day old kittens will take lumps out of you.

Please do not judge this by the standards you are familiar with as that is not a  sound basis on which to form your opinions.

The comment about day old kittens I find quite laughable really or more accurately an exaggeration, we may be British but we certainly aren't stupid.  Tigers and Lions are big cats and even they wouldn't take lumps out of you at that age 

As for opinions,  mine are based on my love for animals not on how I was brought up or what I am familiar with.  You obviously represent the minority that view the ferals as vermin, and think they have no right to breathe, or any other animal for that matter that dares to encroach where some humans don't see fit.   Yes, all animals have a place but again, most don't choose to be where they are, again the dreaded human dictates this    As Hippy pointed out, ferals have a purpose and they keep the rodent population down and yes, they do also kill birds etc.........this is nature and nature is unintentionally cruel but humans should know better   

[blackcat]

I don't see where my comments are racists, I would have the same views on animal cruelty wherever it was in the world not just Australia. 

Dawn, I am sorry if my comments appeared to be personal, it was not you who was villifying the Australian and American race generally. However when people make remarks such as 'In Australia, feral cats are hated enormously, to the extent of hanging them from their back legs and leaving them on trees like trophies. It was unclear whether they were dead or alive when hung. It seems that ferals are blamed for everything: the decrease in bird and rodent (!) population, the spread of disease, and a multitude of other far-fetched stuff.'

it is appaself-evident from this wording that that they have not taken the time to inform themselves. This is a real problem, not one which people are making 'far-fetched' claims about.

Test areas have been fenced off in reserves set aside to preserve native wildlife. Some have been cleared of the fox population, some of the cat population, some of both, and some of neither (the control areas). Populations of native animals were signiificantly more depleted in the areas that contained cats only. Whereas in the fox-only areas, while there was a reduction in native population which was not so great. This is scientifically replicable information, not subjective commentary by people who simply have an opinion.

And HippyKitty, I do not consider Youtube to be a reliable source of accurate information. It is a public forum that does not discern between reasoned debate and subjective content. If it did, it would not contain some of the appalling footage that we have seen drawn to our attention on this site. It is neither appropriate nor in the spirit of this forum for either view point to be debated further here.

I will, however, state once and for all my position. I love animals, I will go out of my way to ensure they do not suffer. However, my love for animals extends to all animals, not just cats. There are places where a cat should be, such as curled up infront of a fire. There are places it should not be, such as in the Australian bush. The same applies to tigersnakes. They should be in the bush, not in front of my fire. If the animal is in the wrong place it can cause serious harm. If it can be removed from the wrong place humanely then it is appropriate to do so.

This does not include the more extreme examples that have been cited by some members in this debate. It would be useful if, in future, people take the time to inform themselves before expressing an opinion on a public forum, and if someone challenges their world view with some hard facts, if they could focus on the facts, rather than on turning the entire matter into a personal attack. That is very much not in the spirit of this forum and I am disappointed that some members felt it appropriate to behave in that way.

[Hippykitty]

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=bd8wB0SjI3c&mode=related&search=

Watch all the parts of this, if you have the stomach.

Feral cat=species extinction

this equation doesn't work.  The presence of the feral cat is largely incidental to the threats to various indigenous Australian species; the real culprit was the destruction of the natural habitat by man in order to farm sheep. The feral cat is actually performing a service by keeping down the rabbit population. Without the cat, you may have to undergo the shame of myxomotosis yet again - and that WAS a shameful attempt at manipulating the course of nature, which has a way of balancing itself. Or do you want the rabbits back?

As Dawn has pointed out,  your views are surprising for someone who is on a cat forum, which is probably why it has stirred such emotion amongst those of us who hate to see cats cruelly treated.

There are a few very odd wordings in your last posts:

they are also vicious killers,

The use of "vicious killers" is strange, the cat isn't being deliberately evil; cats are natural predators.

a pair of breeding feral cats

Cats don't pair-bond, as you should be well aware.

we, or rather your  ancestors

Duh! Who's accusing who of racism? Anyway 'you' lot are not indigenous to that land, you took it from the aborignes! No wonder you have a complex about the poor cats. (Sorry, being a bit personal, but feeling GrrrrrrHHHHH........ concerning your opinions!) 

[Dawn (DiddyDawn)]

The sort of irrational outbursts that I have witnessed on this forum tonight are the same root cause that leads to racism - you attribute a particular characteristic, demonstrated by a minority - too all people with that same shared identification.

I don't see where my comments are racists, I would have the same views on animal cruelty wherever it was in the world not just Australia.  There are other ways to control the animal population, the gun isn't the answer to everything, that is the easy option.   I'm sure they could set up camp for a few days and do a neutering blitz, but that would cost money and take time so that would definitely be out of the question. 

And for your information, I do have Australian relatives but I think their views are slightly different to yours.

[blackcat]

I agree we will have to agree to differ Dawn, however I can not accept that the views I have expressed suggest that I in any way endorse cruelty to animals of any sort. Sleep well,

Good night

[Dawn (DiddyDawn)]

Considering this is a cat forum for people who love cats, I cannot believe that we are having a discussion about shooting cats and someone defending the action and especially as most of the rescues on this forum deal with ferals on a daily basis.  I think this is something we will have to agree to disagree on as your views are very different to how I would envisage a cat lover's views to be.

[blackcat]

a rather simplistic view Dawn, and one that does your intelligence no justice. I am sure if you take the time to think about it you will realise there may just be a little more to the situatiion that some sort of endemic Australian anti-cat-ness going on here. Governments do not invest vast sums of money on addressing a problem if the problem does not exist. At least the Australian one doesn't - I can't speak for the English one. The sort of irrational outbursts that I have witnessed on this forum tonight are the same root cause that leads to racism - you attribute a particular characteristic, demonstrated by a minority - too all people with that same shared identification. Cats are lovely creatures, they are also vicious killers, and in a country where the native population breeds at maybe one offspring per every couple of years, a pair of breeding feral cats (whcih can result in up to 420000 offspring over a 7 year period, is not a good combination.

OK we, or rather your ancestors took them there, but we, the people and wildlife who live there are the ones who face the consequences. I agree shooting is not the best solution, however in the circumstances it is the only reasonable one in the vastness of the bush.

It is neither fair, nor well-thougt-through to compare this with mass exterminations in an inner city area, As I indicated in my earlier posts, these are not urban ferals, they are wild animals that have seen neither hide nor hair of humans for generations. They have to be tough to survive and they are really tough. They are way bigger than your average moggy, muscular and vicious from birth. Day old kittens will take lumps out of you.

Please do not judge this by the standards you are familiar with as that is not a  sound basis on which to form your opinions.

[Dawn (DiddyDawn)]

Then considering this country is so vast, why isn't there room for all or are the ferals taking over 

[blackcat]

I'm sorry Dawn, I can appreciate that it is difficult for British people to understand the vastness of the Australian Bush, but when you have a population that might have to travel for 30 hours by vehicle before they run into another human being, that sort of approach is less than practicable. Clearly this is not something that can be resolved on this forum, and equally clearly my experience in this area is not of any interest to the people who wish to be outraged, rather than to listen to facts. I am off to bed now.

[Dawn (DiddyDawn)]

Because there IS a feral population in australia, destroying will create a vacuum which other ferals will fill. This has been found to happen in urban areas: you destroy the ferals, and more move in.

Hence the best method of control is Trap Neuter Release. You then have a largely sterile feral population which will humanely decline.

It doesn't say much for us as people if we randomly use feral cats for sport, which seems to be the case in Australia and certain US states. Nor will it adequately reduce numbers. It'll just stir up what is worse in humans: cruelty, sadism, and off-loading blame onto the feral cat. Most of the now-extinct species has been made extinct by man. The american bison and indigenous wolf became extinct because of over-hunting. In the case of the wolf, it was viewed as evil vermin and a price put on it's head. Mass slaughter ensued. Now certain types of wolf can only be found in zoos and safari parks.

Very well put Hippy and I agree 100%.  Although we may be a dot compared to Austrailia, the TNR programmes would work just as well out in the bush.   It's common knowledge if you "dispose" of them by whatever means, there will be other ferals moving in on the patch and the cycle starts again.   I think through education, a lot of people are seeing the ferals as needing our help and are taking an active interest in reducing numbers humanely with the TNR programmes, and this does work and it is being usied more and more.  Part of the problem is too many people see ferals as vermin and although the ferals may be different over here, they are all the same in the fact they are where they are because of humans.  Humans are responsible for a lot of the devastation in this world, more so than the poor animals that die because of it.

[blackcat]

there is a significant difference between a quick bullet to the head, and slow starvation, suffocation and dehydration. And what is more, it is not being done to make a quick buck.

[Pinkbear (Julie)]

Well, thus was ever the case, blackcat. People love sensationalising and since when were the press ever interested in the truth of anything?  And Australia's native wildlife has suffered enormously, there is no doubt. I don't think anyone said otherwise, did they? 

But as with everything else in life, it all boils down to money. It's cheaper to shoot a cat than to neuter it. So why don't we shoot all the unwanted ones?

30 years ago, much of what is now plush, elite housing developments where disused warehouses on the bank of the Thames. These ruins where home to 100s of ferals. No one noticed when the developers sealed off these buildings to make them airtight. Or if they did notice, they just didn't care... It was cheaper to gass them in those days, you see. 

Developers are doing it again with the Olympic site. Only this time, they can't use the gass because environmentalists won't let them. So they are just demolising the ruins around the cats instead. Celia Hammond say queens are wandering the rubble crying for their babies...

There I go... off on another rant about ferals. Sorry! 

[blackcat]

As it happens, PinkBear, yes they are taking active measures to control a large number of feral animal populations, be they cats, foxes, rabbits, camels, horses or canetoads. Not to mention dogs, goats, and numerous other species ill-advisedly released in the Australian environment. A quick google will provide you with ample sites which demonstrate clearly the amount of damage that is being done to native species as a result of this.

I do not endorse cruelty in any shape or form. I think that the views I have consistently expressed in this forum make this clear. However it is a problem that has to be dealt with or the world will lose even more precious, unique and potentially valuable species.

I am particularly annoyed when irresponsible reporting achieves that which it sets out to do - an uninformed, emotional response that tars an entire country or race with the same brush as the few violent twisted individuals that those reporters choose to single out as representative. You may recall that not so long ago, a member of this forum was telling us about the standard of reporting on a tragic accident that affected her son. The same standards of reporting are those which have led to this unprecedented 'personalisation' of the argument on tonight's forum.

[Pinkbear (Julie)]

It's a sad fact that for every kind of animal there is a nationally organised campaign and support group - all except the feral domestic cat. In some places in the world they suffer far worse fates than in Australia. I find it ironic because they are only there because we have introduced them and our careless, irresponsible actions have led to them becoming wild.

But I can't agree with anyone that thinks displaying trophies of animals shot for non-food reasons it okay. Not very civilised in this day and age, is it?

What are Australians doing to controll numbers of Cain Toads these days, blackcat? Are they also hunting the camels as well?

[blackcat]

Most of the now-extinct species has been made extinct by man.

With all due respect HK I have worked in the organisations that are dedicated to the preservation of Australian Wildlife. I have seen the scientific proof of this. I agree, they have been made extinct by man - by man introducing species into environments that are ill-suited to cope with them and whose Indigenous species are suffering as a consequence. I love my cats, and I have always had cats since my mid teens. However I would no more let them loose in the Australian bush than fly to the moon. While there is some validity in your statement about trap-neuter-release, you should also bear in mind the scale of the problem. England could be dropped in the middle of the Australian bush and you would never find it. In that vast land (my home land) there is a population of a mere 20 million people, the vast majority of which clings to the coastal edges.

If you wish to engage in this debate ensure you are informed about the problem. It is easy to judge from your comfy city armchairs.

[Hippykitty]

Because there IS a feral population in australia, destroying will create a vacuum which other ferals will fill. This has been found to happen in urban areas: you destroy the ferals, and more move in.

Hence the best method of control is Trap Neuter Release. You then have a largely sterile feral population which will humanely decline.

It doesn't say much for us as people if we randomly use feral cats for sport, which seems to be the case in Australia and certain US states. Nor will it adequately reduce numbers. It'll just stir up what is worse in humans: cruelty, sadism, and off-loading blame onto the feral cat. Most of the now-extinct species has been made extinct by man. The american bison and indigenous wolf became extinct because of over-hunting. In the case of the wolf, it was viewed as evil vermin and a price put on it's head. Mass slaughter ensued. Now certain types of wolf can only be found in zoos and safari parks.

[blackcat]

That is a quite different matter. Someone who would do that would be subject to the same cruelty laws as anyone else.

That is the problem with this sort of hysteria-raising reporting. It does not differentiate between systematic control and individual cruelty. While there are a few hairynosed tree-huggers in Australia who might support any method of killing off feral cats, they are very much the minority.

However, you must understand that a feral cat in the Australian bush may not have seen a human being for several generations. They are a quite different kettle of fish to urban ferals, or even farm cats. Shooting is a humane and effective method of reducing their numbers. No-one who was raised in the bush is incompetent with a gun. They shoot to kill and they do so humanely. Despite their rough exterior, most bushy's are a soft as they come.

[Millys Mum]

Theres control and then theres being sick about it.
I saw one site from some petuna who blew holes into them with a small canon mortor contraption. He fed them milk in containers to get them there as targets. 

[blackcat]

[In Australia, feral cats are hated enormously, to the extent of hanging them from their back legs and leaving them on trees like trophies. It was unclear whether they were dead or alive when hung.

I think you will find they are dead. Hanging 'vermin' off fences is an old Australian tradition. In the bush feral cats cause a huge amount of damage to wildlife. Entire species have been wiped out due to depradation by ferals. Sure humans are contributing to habitat loss, but the populations that are being predated are in areas where people do not go because there is nothing of economic value there. The parks, national parks and sanctuaries are being seriously damaged by the activities of feral cats (and dogs). Sorry, but there is a desparate need to control them in Australia and shooting and trapping are legal, and at times the only way you are going to get them. Feral cats, of several generations descent, are huge, muscular and would make the average wild cat look tame. I have seen them and met them.

If we are to maintain our populations of native species, protect the biodiversity of a unique faunal collection that developed in isolation in a country where the biggest predator was a snake, then feral cat populations in rural areas MUST be controlled.

A bandicoot has as much right to life as a cat, and in Australia, the bandicoot got there first.

Hysterical reporting by ill-informed city people has a lot to do to justify its existence.

[Bazsmum]

Having decided to do what many do on youtube: blatantly rip off copyrighted material; I did a google image search for feral cats. Lots of good images came up. But I was HORRIFIED by what I read on the sites, especially the Australian ones.

In the US they're holding feral cat hunts: shooting them for fun and 'to keep the population down'.

In Australia, feral cats are hated enormously, to the extent of hanging them from their back legs and leaving them on trees like trophies. It was unclear whether they were dead or alive when hung.

It seems that ferals are blamed for everything: the decrease in bird and rodent (!) population, the spread of disease, and a multitude of other far-fetched stuff. Even their hunting abilities are maligned. One site said something like, "the sweet cat sitting beside you is an evil hunter, capable of tearing it's prey apart......"  Duh! Isn't that what a cat is meant to be. Don't humans do considerable worse things; the cat is only catching its food!

 

 

[Hippykitty]

Thanks, I'm still tired from missing a night's sleep doing it. Credited you, Pinkbear. As I nicked most of the images from the web, I did a general credit to the cat rescues who 'donated' images! Windows movie maker wouldn't let me fit any credits on after the stuff about feral homing, so the credits are along the side, with the blurb.

[Pinkbear (Julie)]

It's really good! 

[blackcat]

What a great backing track!! A really effective piece of visual messaging. well done!!

[Hippykitty]

Yes, I found some of the stuff written about ferals totally disgusting.

By the way, the vid is done and up on youtube. I've been up all night editing it!

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=9dAd4iHCFhY

[Pinkbear (Julie)]

HK... you are just beginning the same journey of discovery that I did many years ago.  I remember with horror the day when I heard 30 years ago that whole ferals colonies were being gassed to make way for housing and supermarket developments in LONDON! 

I bore all my pals senseless going on about 'my' ferals. 

[Hippykitty]

Having decided to do what many do on youtube: blatantly rip off copyrighted material; I did a google image search for feral cats. Lots of good images came up. But I was HORRIFIED by what I read on the sites, especially the Australian ones.

In the US they're holding feral cat hunts: shooting them for fun and 'to keep the population down'.

In Australia, feral cats are hated enormously, to the extent of hanging them from their back legs and leaving them on trees like trophies. It was unclear whether they were dead or alive when hung.

It seems that ferals are blamed for everything: the decrease in bird and rodent (!) population, the spread of disease, and a multitude of other far-fetched stuff. Even their hunting abilities are maligned. One site said something like, "the sweet cat sitting beside you is an evil hunter, capable of tearing it's prey apart......"  Duh! Isn't that what a cat is meant to be. Don't humans do considerable worse things; the cat is only catching its food!