Taking clapton off fortekor

[Mark]

He had been on Fortekor for about 3 months when they were taken - I don't have the readings for last november when he was diagnosed but the ones I posted were "marginally improved" readings.

I hate the idea of putting needles in him - OH would forbid it. The vet suggested keeping him in for 24hrs for rehydration next month if no improvement. Also, after the improvement in eating yesterday, He has hardly eaten today but it could be to do with the fact that we had 2 people clearing the garden today and that kind of thing always upsets him.

[Gillian Harvey]

I asked for a copy of Clapton's last readings from 2 months ago which were a slight improvement on the previous ones.

Urea 20.2
Crea 300

These seem quite high compared to Swampy's

Was he on fortekor when the bloods showed an improvement Mark? They are a bit better than my Suzie's - urea 26.5 and creatinine 359. Shame, Clapton's relatively young isnt he? You could ask your vet about subcutaneous fluids that you give at home, to rehydrate and help the kidneys. Would Clapton let you inject him to do this? 

[Mark]

I asked for a copy of Clapton's last readings from 2 months ago which were a slight improvement on the previous ones.

Urea 20.2
Crea 300

These seem quite high compared to Swampy's

[Gillian Harvey]

me again. Swampy's going on to Fortekor. He has creatinine 182 (177 in Jan), urea 9.4 (normal in Jan) and urine concentration of 10.16. He's 15 yrs old. No idea how bad those figures are?
I

The lab figures I have show 80-180 is normal range for creatinine and  4 to 12 is normal range for urea, so based on those figures (bearing in mind, labs differ slightly in their 'normal' ranges) Swampy's urea looks still in normal range, creatinine just over the high side of normal. The urine gravity figure should probably read 1.016 - and normal is between 1.015 to 1.05 - so again within normal range. So those figures look pretty good for his age!

[swampmaxmum]

me again. Swampy's going on to Fortekor. He has creatinine 182 (177 in Jan), urea 9.4 (normal in Jan) and urine concentration of 10.16. He's 15 yrs old. No idea how bad those figures are? Vet says he is checking with Novartis but thinks it's not contra-indicated for liver disease but understands my concern. He also says he will try to check on the food suitability thing and will let me know IF he remembers !! very vague but nice guy!

I asked about beef and pork and btw he says it depends on the cut/the quality of the meat but that generally for kidneys, chicken is better. says the big cos test and manipulate ingredients so it's not like us feeding beef or pork we buy in the supermarket.  If I hear anything more, will post.

[swampmaxmum]

can you give Clapton pills? A quick whoosh down the throat might piss him off for a bit, but better than drops in food etc.  If he likes the Tesco nosh, why not stick to that? Or a/d. Ok it's not perfect for his condition but it's better than not eating.
Am I utterly wrong in thinking that if he's on Fortekor it gives you a bit more scope to feed less 'suitable' (ie designed for kidneys like K/d) food?  If he won't eat k/d minced chicken, no point in trying the other k/d which is solid muck.

If his mouth is sore, shouldn't that be treated? If that vet won't, is there another in the area? having said that, won't the steroids help any mouth inflammation?

Beef is a strange one - the l/d is beef (now pork) and with Hills very dodgy but quite extensive testing on liver damaged cats, you'd think they'd avoid an ingredient that's actively harmful. At the risk of having the phone slammed down on me, I'll try to ask the co again. However my vet won't ring up their vets department which is really what's required to find out what's best for kidney and liver patient cats ("it's her again, on the subject of food SIGH") but would like to know why Hills moved from beef l/d to pork l/d.  I'd assumed it was for cost reasons, but would be good to know if it was for clinical reasons.  (Pork can contain tapeworm for humans? Is that it?)
Swamp's doing well on it, but maybe it's not designed for long term use??
Plus need to find out what's in their k/d minced chicken and if that formula's changing too. 

Hope Clapton's Tesco jelly's going down well today anyhow.  My friend in France kept her cat pretty much on steroids for 2 years btw (she was old and the vet was tut-tutting as well). But she still had a quality of life and my friend made the decision to keep her going on steroids & the vet respected the decision in the end.

[Susanne (urbantigers)]

i have read the same about pork, there is something beginning with t that is why you shouldnt' feed, but hte list is at work.

I think that might be the parasite I referred to in the other thread in General, Desley.  I can't remember the name but I think there is a parasite that can be in pork that is a potential problem and I have a feeling it might begin with T!  I never give raw pork but am happy to let Mosi have his hi life pork and game as he likes it and it's not caused him any problems so far.  Bozita also contains pork.  Of course, I'm always prepared to change my mind!

[Mark]

I know clapton woldn't let me feed him with a syringe. He doesn't even like being picked up and he gets really upset if you touch his mouth.

[Desley (booktigger)]

Tricky one Mark - fingers crossed it is that inflammation in his mouth that is causing the issue, and not the CRF - although tricky if the vet wont do anything about it anyway. Not sure what else you can try really, you could just pop in and ask for the syringes and fluids - although it is something that most cats dont tolerate, you might be best asking for something to put in his normal water instead - my vet did say they dont tend to drink it then though. i have read the same about pork, there is something beginning with t that is why you shouldnt' feed, but hte list is at work.

[Mark]

Mark glad to hear clapton is eating even if it is the steriods but i just wanted to say you can get long acting steriods and if need be cats can be on them indefinately..yes its not ideal but neither is a babe with mild crf and doesnt eat...perhaps this is a medication that will need to be repeated.

RE the pork..there is/was some old story or something about cats shouldnt be fed on pork (even healthy ones) so i'll have to go and see if i can remember or look that one up for you as its a vague dot in the back of my head.  I'm trying to remember about insulin aswell coz i cant remember if porcine insulin is or isnt ok for cats (not that insulin is anything to do with clapton but there was something about pork there too im sure)

He said the injection should last a month. I got mixed messages from him though. On one hand, he said he won't do more bloods yet and other the other, saying poor quality of life is no life and its not fair to an animal to keep it going if it feels unwell all the time. He described creatanine as the day after a bad hangover when yo feel you need to eat but when you smell the food, you feel sick.

[Gill (sneakiefeline)]

Oh dear drops on his food.............he wont eat that again 

[Mark]

I forgot, one other thing he gave me was a bottle of abecin (childrens vitamins) God knows how I am meant to administer as clapton won't let me put the dropper in his mouth and he stopped eating when I put the drops on his food (his 3rd pouch tonight!)

including the fortekor, bill was £70 so not bad really - even though a new pair of shoes would have been nicer 

oh and the k/d food I have already is chicken and he won't touch it 

[CurlyCatz]

Mark glad to hear clapton is eating even if it is the steriods but i just wanted to say you can get long acting steriods and if need be cats can be on them indefinately..yes its not ideal but neither is a babe with mild crf and doesnt eat...perhaps this is a medication that will need to be repeated.

RE the pork..there is/was some old story or something about cats shouldnt be fed on pork (even healthy ones) so i'll have to go and see if i can remember or look that one up for you as its a vague dot in the back of my head.  I'm trying to remember about insulin aswell coz i cant remember if porcine insulin is or isnt ok for cats (not that insulin is anything to do with clapton but there was something about pork there too im sure)

[Mark]

If he was Mark, then I think the best idea is to give Clapton a happy quality of life and feed him what he likes best, irrespective of anything else.

I think the more he is messed about with food and meds, the more unhappy he will be............................but this is just my opinion...........and it was the route my London vet said to take with Kocka.

I always hope that I made the right decision and she had the best life I could give her until she went to the Bridge at 20yrs old.

The problem is, clapton is only 8. If he can't get on with renal food I think I will order some Ipaktine binders and Kaminox renal support solution and give them a try. Its all too 

[Mark]

Vet gave him a steroid injection and gave me childrens vitamin drops to give him every day. The vet also offered me a syringe to give clapton water & glucose solution (I don't know what happened but I didn't get them   )

He said to watch him for a month and bring him back if there is no improvement. He mentioned that an animal must enjoy life and there is no point in existing but feeling sick and miserable. He told me NOT to give him milk as it has large molecules or something and is very bad for the kidneys and pituitary gland. He said I need to aim for food with small molecules like fish, chicken etc. - he said any carbs like pasta would be good but unlikely he will eat them. On no account give him pork of any description as this is the worst possible food with large molecules. Also beef is a no-no

Mark, what did your vet say about whether to keep on with fortekor or not?

I'm interested in what he said about the molecules - don't understand it mind! Did he expand on how big molecules affect the kidneys etc? How do we know what foods got big molecules and what food hasnt?  Bit of a shame about the beef, all my cats, including my 2 crf cats love it! I always thought that more fatty meats like beef, are better for crf cats, because the more the fat the lower the phosphorus? maybe got that wrong!!

Elsa had a steroid and vitamin injection over 3 months ago now, and vet reckoned it would last about 6 wks - but she's still eating really well.

He said to keep on with the fortekor as it opens up the arteries around the kidneys, taking the load off them and allowing them to get rid of the creatanine which is the toxin that makes them feel nauseous. He said something else about molecules but the gist was all dairy and pork have large molecules and should be avoided (thats why I'm confused about k/d minced chicken containing pork) he said pasta would be excellent if you could get a cat to eat it!. He said next month he may want to keep clapton in for 24hrs rehydration. I wish I took him up on the offer of a syringe to give clapton glucose & water to rehydrate (he talks a lot and he went off onto something else)

[Gill (sneakiefeline)]

If he was Mark, then I think the best idea is to give Clapton a happy quality of life and feed him what he likes best, irrespective of anything else.

I think the more he is messed about with food and meds, the more unhappy he will be............................but this is just my opinion...........and it was the route my London vet said to take with Kocka.

I always hope that I made the right decision and she had the best life I could give her until she went to the Bridge at 20yrs old.

[Gillian Harvey]

Vet gave him a steroid injection and gave me childrens vitamin drops to give him every day. The vet also offered me a syringe to give clapton water & glucose solution (I don't know what happened but I didn't get them   )

He said to watch him for a month and bring him back if there is no improvement. He mentioned that an animal must enjoy life and there is no point in existing but feeling sick and miserable. He told me NOT to give him milk as it has large molecules or something and is very bad for the kidneys and pituitary gland. He said I need to aim for food with small molecules like fish, chicken etc. - he said any carbs like pasta would be good but unlikely he will eat them. On no account give him pork of any description as this is the worst possible food with large molecules. Also beef is a no-no

Mark, what did your vet say about whether to keep on with fortekor or not?

I'm interested in what he said about the molecules - don't understand it mind! Did he expand on how big molecules affect the kidneys etc? How do we know what foods got big molecules and what food hasnt?  Bit of a shame about the beef, all my cats, including my 2 crf cats love it! I always thought that more fatty meats like beef, are better for crf cats, because the more the fat the lower the phosphorus? maybe got that wrong!!

Elsa had a steroid and vitamin injection over 3 months ago now, and vet reckoned it would last about 6 wks - but she's still eating really well.

[Mark]

Maybe I should try some.

Now the steroids have kicked in, he is eating for england! 2 pouches with licked-clean bowl!! 
As he is meant to be on low-phos diet, I think maybe I  should stick to fish/chickem senior (or ideally K/D) so as not to overload his kidneys. I won't feed him til bedtime now and see if he is hungry enough to eat the k/d or the other kidney food in the cupboard.

I want this tio work as the vet sounded like he was priming me for PTS 

[Gill (sneakiefeline)]

Hills ad is like a creamy pate and kocka would only eat it off my finger, she ate it for the last few years of her life, supplemented by anything else i could tempt her to eat.

[Mark]

Well about 1/2 hour ago, he started licking my hand & face (means I'm hungry!) and I gave him a pouch of Tesco in Jelly. 10 mins later, the bowl was licked clean. 15 minutes later he wanted more and he ate a pouch of whiskas senior (hasn't done that in weeks). I know its the drugs so shouldn't get too excited but at least he's eating.

[swampmaxmum]

On no account give him pork of any description as this is the worst possible food with large molecules. Also beef is a no-no

Ah well Hills make their l/d for liver patients from beef and now pork! Although of course I wonder just how much is in it?!

minced chicken k/d smells very strong and when they've had it, they much preferred it to the horrible old k/d. Might be worth a try? hope the steroids work.

[Mark]

nightmare as he keeps going off what he will eat and if you keep changing it, he'll get confused and picky too.  Have you tried Hills a/d or the minced chicken k/d at all?
suppose he's not allowed salt which is what would make any chicken broth or home cooked chicken even nicer

you've prob tried feeding him in different ways eg off your finger or back of spoon? so that he just licks, doesn't really have to eat.

all the best.

I don't think he will eat any Hills food - I have loads of K/D but it's supermeat style (will have to look nto getting the minced one). I hope the steroids kick in soon as I want to see him eat. I am going to try a different type of fish tonight - I will have to force myself to go and get fish & chips and let him have some 

[Mark]

Well back from vets

The good news is Clapton weighs the same as 2 months ago. I pointed out that its only because I am here 24/7 and teasing him into eating mouthfuls

Vet gave him a steroid injection and gave me childrens vitamin drops to give him every day. The vet also offered me a syringe to give clapton water & glucose solution (I don't know what happened but I didn't get them   )

I asked him to check claptons mouth as he has been hissing and running off. He has some inflammation in his gums (I think he only has 1 or 2 teeth left) but the vet didn't want to give him an anaesthetic to remove the tooth whilst his kidneys were undermined, so gave him a long-lasting antibiotic.

He said to watch him for a month and bring him back if there is no improvement. He mentioned that an animal must enjoy life and there is no point in existing but feeling sick and miserable. He told me NOT to give him milk as it has large molecules or something and is very bad for the kidneys and pituitary gland. He said I need to aim for food with small molecules like fish, chicken etc. - he said any carbs like pasta would be good but unlikely he will eat them. On no account give him pork of any description as this is the worst possible food with large molecules. Also beef is a no-no

I also met 2 CP kitties Dylan & Henry going in with their foster mum and we had a chat. They had come from Stoke CP as they are overrun 

http://www.catchat.org/cantcp/cgibin/prview.cgi?id=2007050604

[swampmaxmum]

nightmare as he keeps going off what he will eat and if you keep changing it, he'll get confused and picky too.  Have you tried Hills a/d or the minced chicken k/d at all?
suppose he's not allowed salt which is what would make any chicken broth or home cooked chicken even nicer

you've prob tried feeding him in different ways eg off your finger or back of spoon? so that he just licks, doesn't really have to eat.

all the best.

[Mark]

He always loved chicken but I think he has been having it too much as he has even gone off that. I have tried it raw, boiled, roasted etc. I will poach some coley for him later but won't hold my breath. Anyway, the birds are doing really well today - opened 6 pouches/trays + sardines. Ironically the only one he attempted to eat some of was the lidl (4 pouches for 63p! )

[Elaine]

Is Clapton a fan of chicken?  Maybe a chicken broth?
Sorry you have probably been through everything you can possibly think of.  Just trying to remember all the times Winston went off food and what got him eating again.
Normally the sardines worked for him but sometimes I would roast some chicken and use the juices from that to cover his food or make a little chicken broth.  He never was a fan of the old tuna water.  I also would paoch a little white fish in a little milk.

[Mark]

I have tried all kinds of fish but he isn't a fishy cat except sometimes boiled white fish. I opened a can of sardines a while ago - the ring came off so I have to find the tin opener 
I also have a can of hi-life fish platter but I know he won't eat it. I opened one 2 weeks ago and they all turned their noses up.

[JackSpratt]

Good luck at the vets, Mark. Hope Clapton is doing OK.

[Elaine]

Have you tried him on pilchards or sardines?  Stronger smelling foods used to help encourage Winston to start eating again.  Good luck at the vets today xxx

[Mark]

I'm going to ask the vet to do bloods again today. Its only about 2 months since he had them done and at the time, the vet said do them again in 6 months but I think its important to find out whats what. a few weeks ago, he was mad for Tesco own brand but he won't even eat that now. He refused boiled coley last night and chicken on monday so I am out of ideas. The only thing he will take is cows milk.

[swampmaxmum]

How's his liver enzymes, Mark?  I wondered if they were elevated or if Fortekor is not too bad on the liver. That plus the kidney probs could be making him feel nauseous.

Hope you get on well with the vet. And that Clapton eats enough.

Swampy's urine sample went off this am (for dipstick only again   ) so no doubt Fortekor's coming his way soon too. Plus Max whose blood kidney results are traditionally worse than Swampy's.  I  just hope no side effects.

If you stop and start, doesn't the creatinine go up (as posted below, it goes up after starting treatment)?

[Mark]

Got him booked in for 4.30 today. He hasn't eaten again  he ate a bit last night but he is bound to be losing weight. I let him have a bowl of regular milk last night as I know it doesn't upset his stomach and food is food. I dread taking him as he gets so scared and plays dead 

Now the appointment is made, he will probably eat all day 

[Millys Mum]

Did you see the vet today Mark?
I really think you need to decide if you are giving the Fortekor and at what dose, stopping and starting the drug will confuse his body and probably make him feel more like a rollercoaster!

[Mark]

Funny you should say that. I have halved his dose to see if it makes any difference. I will speak to the vet about it. He was eating quite well yesterday ( a sprinkle of serrano ham over his bowl of food helped  )

He's not feather weigh but he has lost a bit of weight over the last few months.

[swampmaxmum]

what does he weigh Mark? I read somewhere that if cats are very light, Fortekor can be more of a problem.  I have no idea but is it a pill that you can adjust the dosage of, so that a cat gets some benefit and the side effects are diminished?

hope Clapton gets some nosh down him today.

[Mark]

Well he isn't eating much still.

This morning I decided after offering him olli & roast chicken without luck, to try beaten egg. It seemed to do the trick and he ate 2 pouches of Tesco in jelly (he seems to prefer it to more expensive ones)

I am going to speak to the vet about fortekor. (he is back on it now)

[smudgepickles]

I must admit I took Bella off the fortekor as she was like a zombie and sleeping so much  her counts were so bad they said they would be honest that they didnt expect she would live very long

She has no medication now and is 25 years old. I let her eat, sleep and have her little run arounds when she has the energy. I didnt want her to just exist. i hated seeing her like a Zombie

Hope he enjoye his FR chicken tonight Mark. Can I send my 9 for some too

xx

[Mark]

He had a small bowl of roast chicken this morning - not very nice smelling chicken cooking at 8.30  (like xmas day  )

He has also eaten 2 bites of ollie wet. 

I will continue coaxing him with mouthfuls  but I think I will have to take him to the vets on Tuesday 

[swampmaxmum]

I'm worried about the liver thing but seem to recall it was mentioned as a bp lowering med instead of Istin, but rejected as not working well enough. I'll have to make some enquiries as the Swampcat's ALT is now just over 50 which is the best for over a year. He's still on Destolit and Zentonil; the jury is out on Destolit but if it ain't broke etc. Zentonil gives an appetite boost - wonder if it may help cats with kidney nausea? It's a food supplement not a drug.

Also Mark have you tried (if chicken be moooost acceptable lol) Hills k/d minced chicken? It seems to be a lot more appetising than the old style k/d which think is being phased out too.

My friend is making chicken broth for her sick one and he's loving it as doesn't have to work too hard to eat.

Thanks for the Fortekor info Helen. I'll read it all, print it out and try to get the vet when he's not in one of his ultra vague moods. Last time he told me that I had decided to forego Fortekor for the Maxcat, whereas we'd not even discussed it. Whoops.

Hope Clapton likes his free range.

[Angiew]

just to second the not stop/starting.

as stated fortecor slows down the flow through the kidneys so the kidney has more time to do its work.
At first this can cause an increase in the levels which is why it can take a while for the benefits to kick in.

may cause the liver to work harder.

Fang (rip 1 year today ) was 2 weeks into fortecor.