Author Topic: welcome to catsville...how cute is this!  (Read 5819 times)

Offline Jiskefet

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Re: welcome to catsville...how cute is this!
« Reply #43 on: May 23, 2011, 14:17:11 PM »
Which is why I think a regular compulsory check by animal health care professionals for every animal rescue organisation would be such a good thing. It would put an end to any unfounded rumours, and they should be in a position to order some changes if things weren't as they should be.

Offline Susanne (urbantigers)

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Re: welcome to catsville...how cute is this!
« Reply #42 on: May 22, 2011, 14:43:33 PM »
We will probably never know the truth about this.  With the internet, facebook etc. it's so easy for one moan or complaint to take on a life of it's own.  All it takes is one disgruntles ex volunteer to start spreading rumours before someone's name is blackened.  Not saying that is the case here, but we dont know what is the truth of it or who is telling the truth.

Offline Jiskefet

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Re: welcome to catsville...how cute is this!
« Reply #41 on: May 19, 2011, 16:51:31 PM »
It is a problem, though, if he doesn't accept help.
And a government could easily make it obligatory for anyone who receives gifts of publicly advertizes as a charity or rescue organisation to have one or more professionally trained, competent people in charge, and to produce proof of the actual health and care sirtuation on a regular basis.

If money is not an issue, it would be easy enough to find dedicated, competent peole ho'd want to work there and take responsibility for health care and hygiene. And it would give Craig a chance to do fewer chores and spend more quality time with his beloved cats.

But apparently, he will not go for this option unless he is forced to.

Offline JackSpratt

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Re: welcome to catsville...how cute is this!
« Reply #40 on: May 18, 2011, 20:36:16 PM »
You could be right, who knows except the folk that know him well?




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Offline Jiskefet

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Re: welcome to catsville...how cute is this!
« Reply #39 on: May 18, 2011, 12:13:25 PM »
I can't shake the feeling Craig isn't very good with people, to put itmildly. I know a few autistic people (asperger) who would react just like this.
With animals, you can react on instinct, and they will react on instinct, of course. It is much  easier for these people (if he indeed has asperger, which I can not be sure of,of course)to connect with than the complex social signals of humans.

Offline JackSpratt

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Re: welcome to catsville...how cute is this!
« Reply #38 on: May 18, 2011, 09:45:52 AM »
I agree with both of you, but was told that Craig shuns any offers of help. Again, just what I'm told by the girls that visited though.

I think a vet visit once a week is a wonderful idea - free of charge if possible to keep his outgoings down. I don't mean free medication, I mean free check ups. ;)




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Offline Judecat (Paula)

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Re: welcome to catsville...how cute is this!
« Reply #37 on: May 18, 2011, 00:17:56 AM »
I think the best way to avoid this kind of controversy would be to make it obligatory for rescue centres like this to have a resident vet, who visits the premises preferably on a daily basis, but at least several days a week, checks the general cat population and attends the sick ones, and who is legally responsible for the health and medical treatment of all cats on the premises.
Thereshould also be regular obligatory visits from a verterinary health inspector.
 
If the stories are true, this guy is in way over his head. And if they are not, it would be far easier to prove if the place would be checked on a regular basis and if a vet would be on hand.

And there should be more than one person in charge, if only to take some of the load of Craig's shoulders.
Even if he feels OK working 16 to 18 hours a day to care for his cats, it should not all rest on one man, as one man can get ill, too. There should be enough back-up. Preferably professional back-up.

I would agree with all of this. Being a bit personal here, but if I get a migraine I struggle to look after two cats, if Craig (God forbid) had a broken limb or something what would happen to the cats?
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Offline Jiskefet

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Re: welcome to catsville...how cute is this!
« Reply #36 on: May 17, 2011, 21:59:42 PM »
I think the best way to avoid this kind of controversy would be to make it obligatory for rescue centres like this to have a resident vet, who visits the premises preferably on a daily basis, but at least several days a week, checks the general cat population and attends the sick ones, and who is legally responsible for the health and medical treatment of all cats on the premises.
Thereshould also be regular obligatory visits from a verterinary health inspector.
 
If the stories are true, this guy is in way over his head. And if they are not, it would be far easier to prove if the place would be checked on a regular basis and if a vet would be on hand.

And there should be more than one person in charge, if only to take some of the load of Craig's shoulders.
Even if he feels OK working 16 to 18 hours a day to care for his cats, it should not all rest on one man, as one man can get ill, too. There should be enough back-up. Preferably professional back-up.

Offline JackSpratt

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Re: welcome to catsville...how cute is this!
« Reply #35 on: May 17, 2011, 16:48:11 PM »
Ummm, OK. But I don't see how a healthy discussion about the places is causing issue unless it becomes a witch hunt to use a phrase Jiskefet mentioned earlier.

This lady is exceptional and I've literally looked up more links about her; not one bit of bad press. My point was, that some places like that do work......




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Offline Gill (sneakiefeline)

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Re: welcome to catsville...how cute is this!
« Reply #34 on: May 17, 2011, 13:19:30 PM »
I think these links should stop being added, it serves no purpose cos nobody from here will ever know what is true and what isnt................leave this stuff on FB please

Offline JackSpratt

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Re: welcome to catsville...how cute is this!
« Reply #33 on: May 17, 2011, 10:32:59 AM »
This is another place I've read about...

http://www.cathouseonthekings.com/

I've never heard any negative reports about this place at all.




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Offline JackSpratt

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Re: welcome to catsville...how cute is this!
« Reply #32 on: May 17, 2011, 10:29:04 AM »
http://www.tampabay.com/features/humaninterest/article1151027.ece

Was sent this last night. Again, no idea how accurate the reporting is, or how much we can believe from either side. I just think it can be dangerous to glorify someone who is actually possibly doing a lot of harm. And I will stipulate again; I do NOT think this man is a bad person. I think he cares about cats and has overstretched himself, but I could be wrong and this place could be amazing. Who knows? Noone, unless they go and see for themselves! ;)




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Offline Judecat (Paula)

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Re: welcome to catsville...how cute is this!
« Reply #31 on: May 17, 2011, 00:26:59 AM »
I agree that people shouldn't go off half cocked and make decisions based on little or no knowledge of what is actually going on.

The other thing is that what conditions would these cats be living in if they hadn't been taken in? Probably a damn sight worse with no medical intervention at all.
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Offline JackSpratt

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Re: welcome to catsville...how cute is this!
« Reply #30 on: May 16, 2011, 23:40:23 PM »
Exactly. I always pay attention to things like this because my sister and her partner went to Thailand years ago and saw the monastery with the tigers on the grounds - transpired the monks did not treat the tigers well, despite what people thought. Was terribly sad, and I always wanted to make sure I knew what the truth was about a place before wanting to visit after that.




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Offline Gillian Harvey

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Re: welcome to catsville...how cute is this!
« Reply #29 on: May 16, 2011, 23:18:46 PM »

Does that make the situation any clearer? I have no idea....

Its hard to know what is the truth  :-:

Offline JackSpratt

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Re: welcome to catsville...how cute is this!
« Reply #28 on: May 16, 2011, 23:00:07 PM »
OK, I asked this:

Can I ask if anyone has voiced their concerns to Craig directly when getting these pictures? Or offered to help raise funds? I'm having a discussion regarding Caboodle Ranch elsewhere and would like to know to respond accordingly.

And received this reply:

Funding is not the issue. He told me pennies fall from the sky and he has people from all over the world sending him money. In the attached article Craig says donations have poured in. Yes people voice their concerns to Craig and he tells you not to say anything about his cats to him. I was warned politely in an email from Nanette that Craig does not like for anyone to suggest things to him because he's being doing it for xxx amount of years and knows what he's doing. He told me the same thing in person. I kept my mouth shut so I wouldn't get kicked out of the ranch as others have when they've pointed out sick/injured cats.

Does that make the situation any clearer? I have no idea....




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Offline Jiskefet

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Re: welcome to catsville...how cute is this!
« Reply #27 on: May 16, 2011, 21:57:46 PM »
If I had proof the Kaboodle Ranch was indeed in trouble, I'd not start a witch hunt, I'd be trying to raise funds for more veterinary care, like a resident vet.

Now that I think we can all agree on. You raise very valid points, Jiskefet. I just believe that if there's a possibility all is not what it seems folk have a right to know. I'm not for one second saying this mans reason for setting up isn't genuine because that part is clear to see.

The trouble is that this is not the way the people who put these pics and stories on the net seem to see it.
I taste an urge to bring the owner to 'justice' in their posts, rather than to help the kaboodle ranch and its inhabitants.
Pointing an accusing finger, instead of reaching out a helping hand.

And I agree with the slogan of many (good) stores and companies:
If you are satisfied with our performance, tell the world, if you are not, tell us.

If one puts forward one's complaints and doubts and they do nothing about it, or have no good explanation, one can spill the beans....... But somehow I get the very strong impression these people never properly discussed their fears and worries with the owner and volunteers.

Offline JackSpratt

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Re: welcome to catsville...how cute is this!
« Reply #26 on: May 16, 2011, 21:26:00 PM »
If I had proof the Kaboodle Ranch was indeed in trouble, I'd not start a witch hunt, I'd be trying to raise funds for more veterinary care, like a resident vet.

Now that I think we can all agree on. You raise very valid points, Jiskefet. I just believe that if there's a possibility all is not what it seems folk have a right to know. I'm not for one second saying this mans reason for setting up isn't genuine because that part is clear to see.




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Offline Jiskefet

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Re: welcome to catsville...how cute is this!
« Reply #25 on: May 16, 2011, 16:55:03 PM »
I mean the people who are going to this place as visitors, taking pictures of dirty sinks and toilets in a bathroom which is open to the cats (though obviously it is not the cats using the sink or the toilet, so in that sense it is no threat to them at all), of a 'dirty' table, which is just covered in the soil the cats walk on and sleep on all day, anyway. Visitors to the ranch who take pictures of sick, or allegedly sick, cats and, instead of checking with the people in charge about the animal's health or treatment, place them on facebook and youtube as proof of neglect. They have no knowledge whether or not they are being neglected, as they do not ask the right qusetions to the right people, they see something, assume the worst and broadcast their interpretations all over the internet as if they were facts.

I am all for a thorough investigation of the Kaboodle Ranch by professional health inspectors, but I don't agree with people secretly taking photos and videos, claiming they show sick animals, while not discussing their condition with the people in charge of them, or lending a hand when they see a cat they consider in need of help.

Of course, seeing sick animals is always a reason for concern, but the people who place these stories on the internet are slandering the owner, as they are offering no real evidence for their accusations, as they are not discussing their worries about specific 'sick' cats with him or his volunteers. If they had,and they were not satisfied with the answers, they would have reported the outcome of these discussions.

I do worry about the cost of feeding and caring for these cats, and how long he can keep it up. But spreading allegations among the general public will only increase, or maybe even CAUSE these problems.
If unproven stories are creating the impression that donating money to this ranch is assisting in creating a bad place for these cats, is very likely to CAUSE cats to be neglected at some time in the future, because their funds WILL run out as a result of more and more pepole backing out.

If they really believe he is in over his head, they'd better assist him in getting more money, more medical care and more volunteers, instead of accusing him and making people turn away. If I had proof the Kaboodle Ranch was indeed in trouble, I'd not start a witch hunt, I'd be trying to raise funds for more veterinary care, like a resident vet.

Offline JackSpratt

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Re: welcome to catsville...how cute is this!
« Reply #24 on: May 16, 2011, 15:55:04 PM »
Sadly, it's believed that the cats aren't getting medical treatment there due to finances and people are concerned about neglect. That's what I read anyway. His heart's in the right place, though.

That's all I put. I didn't claim to know for a fact I was just offering the other side of the story. I hope you aren't referring to me when you say "see everything short of a household situation as neglect" because I don't. Each cat has different needs and some thrive being left to their own devices whereas others don't.




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Offline Jiskefet

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Re: welcome to catsville...how cute is this!
« Reply #23 on: May 16, 2011, 14:39:57 PM »
You know what I am really afraid of?
That people who know little to nothing about running a rescue centre have an unfounded opinion about how a place should be run, and see everything short of a household situation as neglect. By airing their views and spreading pics and videos of 'neglected' cats, they may shy people away from volunteering or donating.
That way we can be sure the cats will at some point be neglected.

If they think there is not enough care for the cats, then volunteer and HELP there and then.
These cats have nowhere to go, there is many hundreds of them, and if he has to pack it in, they will be killed, as no-one will be able to rehome even a fraction of them.

I would not even be surprised if some people in the area want the place to be vacated, and are deliberately starting a witch hunt against the man. Something similar happened to Dierenthuis in the Netherlands. They had to move from their perfectly organized farm to a place they will have to build up from scratch, because ONE neighbour wanted them out of there.
He succeeded because it was supposed to be a farm, not a rescue centre.

I am praying the new owner wil build a mega pig or chicken farm with ten times the inconvenience the neighbour claimed to have from the cat and dog shelter.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2011, 14:44:34 PM by Jiskefet »

Offline Gill (sneakiefeline)

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Re: welcome to catsville...how cute is this!
« Reply #22 on: May 16, 2011, 14:25:47 PM »
Very well said Jiskefet  :hug: :hug:

Offline Jiskefet

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Re: welcome to catsville...how cute is this!
« Reply #21 on: May 16, 2011, 11:47:29 AM »
By the way, what would you do if you were in a place like this, visiting, and you saw a sick cat? Would you secretly film it and put the film on the internet, claiming the animal was being neglected???

I know I wouldn't. I would go and find the owner of the place or a volunteer, and report the sick animal. I might take a photo to show them which cat I meant, but i would be asking THEM what was wrong with the cat, if they were aware it was poorly, if it was being treated for this condition, etc.....

I find no reports of such conversations in the allegations made on the internet. Just pictures and accusations. In my view, if a visitor spots a cat he thinks is sick or in acute distress, and does not report it to the people in charge, he is JUST as guilty of neglect as whoever is in charge.

Offline Jiskefet

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Re: welcome to catsville...how cute is this!
« Reply #20 on: May 16, 2011, 11:33:14 AM »
I still wonder how much of it is true...
If a vet is visiting each week, sick cats would be treated, don't you think?
Their main problem will probably be catching them in order to be treated. And some infections will be hard to weed out in free-roaming populations, even if you treat all sick individuals. It is one of the hazards of a 'natural' lifestyle.

Of course, sick animals should be adequately treated, but with such an extensive population, there will ALWAYS be some sick cats, and before you make allegations about them not being treated or cared for, you should make very sure it is the SAME cats that are sick the next time you see them.

The pictures do not tell the entire story, or rather, they tell a story from a not quite realistic point of view.
So the sink and table are dirty... They WOULD be with hundreds of cats running around all day. Just look at MY sink after ONE cat walked over it. If you expect everything to be as spotless as in a house, you need a cleaner standing by at each bathroom 24/7

The water is dirty, they say......
It doesn't look all that dirty on the pictures. Ther may be some dirt in it, but as long as it is natural dirt, sand blowing in, or leaves, I do not see the problem. My cats have a bowl of fresh water at all times, but where do they drink? From the fountain or a rain puddle. Dirty water.
How clean do you suppose a brook or lake is? They are the natural sources of water for all free-roaming animals.

They show a video of a cat having trouble breathing. I magnified this film to have a good look, but I don't see it..... It may be because the film gets too unclear, it is a very bad recording, but I do not see any evidence of laboured breathing.

I saw my Daisy when she was suffering from FIP, I saw my Tuppence in a similar condition when her heart was getting bad, and they did not look like this cat. I see no obvious discomfort  like I saw in my darlings, who WERE indeed having trouble breathing.

I do agree places like this should be closely monitored, but I see no actual proof of neglect. The photos and stories are random images, showing a given point in time. They are no proof of neglect, only of the fact that not all cats are in perfect health (which is only to be expected, given the number of cats that live there). If you survey an apartment complex with a similar number of people, you will find quite a number of them ill or injured. Does this mean they are not being cared for?
Only if you repeat the survey a week later, and again a month later, and the same pepole are in the same condition or worse, with no sign of care or treatment, THEN you can say they are being neglected.

I think it would be better if amateur do-gooders stopped spreading allegations, and, instead, professional veterinary health inspectors visited this place, and every other place like it, once a month or so, to check whether they provide proper care.
And these professionals would have to look at individual cats. If Lucy Lu was sick last time, they will need to check if, and how, Lucy Lu was treated and if she has improved.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2011, 11:38:58 AM by Jiskefet »

Offline JackSpratt

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Re: welcome to catsville...how cute is this!
« Reply #19 on: May 16, 2011, 10:23:54 AM »
It seems to be. The people that filmed the cat appear to be on speaking terms with the man who runs the ranch. Don't get me wrong, I think this man means well, but clearly needs financial support to care for all the cats.

(And I know what you mean. Some cats look totally ill even when they're being medicated and cared for, that's just the way it is sometimes.)




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Offline Feline Costumier

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Re: welcome to catsville...how cute is this!
« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2011, 10:20:42 AM »
I have to say, I'm still in two minds but there are a lot of things which are concerning if true.

http://www.facebook.com/caboodleranch.savethekitties

Offline dizziblonde

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Re: welcome to catsville...how cute is this!
« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2011, 10:04:41 AM »
I agree that to some extent people can overmedicate an animal - HOWEVER, I've just seen video footage of a cat at this ranch walking completely off kilter due to an inattended ear infection. That to me isn't overmedicating, it's a basic need.

Do you actually KNOW it was an unattended one? You might have had a fit at one of our old cats (long since departed) who had an inner ear infection which was treated, but never fully recovered his sense of balance and spent the rest of his life doddering around the lounge slightly like he'd drunk a bottle of vodka. Fully vet-checked out... just came to the conclusion he'd whacked his balance out of kilter and lived for a good few years after that.

To an outsider though it might well have looked like "oh that poor cat needs treating".

Offline JackSpratt

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Re: welcome to catsville...how cute is this!
« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2011, 08:05:37 AM »
I agree that to some extent people can overmedicate an animal - HOWEVER, I've just seen video footage of a cat at this ranch walking completely off kilter due to an inattended ear infection. That to me isn't overmedicating, it's a basic need.





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Offline Judecat (Paula)

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Re: welcome to catsville...how cute is this!
« Reply #15 on: May 15, 2011, 23:30:19 PM »
I quite agree, having watched two different dog owning friends prolong the lives of their animals , one Shepherd, one Black Lab, both with severe displaysia of the hips. Carrying them out to the garden to 'do their business', watching the dogs distress when they have accidents because they cannot move outside themselves. Absolutely heartbreaking.
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Offline Michelle (furbabystar)

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Re: welcome to catsville...how cute is this!
« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2011, 15:57:41 PM »
I do think, however, that this man and his vet may have a more 'natural' approach to the situation.
We tend to overmedicate our pets, as if they were human, extensive cancer treatments etc.

But sometimes, I think one should wonder if this is done for the animal's benefit, or for the owner, who ascribes 'human' reasoning and emotion to his pet.
Pets accept it, when their body tells them it is time. Pets have no need to extend their suffering in order to have a little more time with their loved ones, they have no unfinished business, like us.
If they try to hang on, it is because they feel their owner isn't ready yet, not because THEY are not.

So not starting any life-prolonging treatment when there is no cure, or if the cure entails too much or too prolonged suffering for the animal on his way back to health, does not equal neglect, it equals another way, a more natural way, if you please, of dealing with life and death.

We do not speak of neglect if a dairy cow or a free-roaming dartmoor pony does not receive cancer treatment or twice-daily insulin shots...... So why would it suddenly be neglect or animal abuse if we view medical treatment of semi-feral free-roaming cats in the same vein?


VERY WELL SAID - GREAT POST

Offline Jiskefet

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Re: welcome to catsville...how cute is this!
« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2011, 12:48:23 PM »
I do think, however, that this man and his vet may have a more 'natural' approach to the situation.
We tend to overmedicate our pets, as if they were human, extensive cancer treatments etc.

But sometimes, I think one should wonder if this is done for the animal's benefit, or for the owner, who ascribes 'human' reasoning and emotion to his pet.
Pets accept it, when their body tells them it is time. Pets have no need to extend their suffering in order to have a little more time with their loved ones, they have no unfinished business, like us.
If they try to hang on, it is because they feel their owner isn't ready yet, not because THEY are not.

So not starting any life-prolonging treatment when there is no cure, or if the cure entails too much or too prolonged suffering for the animal on his way back to health, does not equal neglect, it equals another way, a more natural way, if you please, of dealing with life and death.

We do not speak of neglect if a dairy cow or a free-roaming dartmoor pony does not receive cancer treatment or twice-daily insulin shots...... So why would it suddenly be neglect or animal abuse if we view medical treatment of semi-feral free-roaming cats in the same vein?

Offline CatGirl

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Re: welcome to catsville...how cute is this!
« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2011, 11:24:57 AM »
I hope he gets a lot of donations,to be surrounded by cats is my idea of heaven! :Luv:

Offline Jiskefet

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Re: welcome to catsville...how cute is this!
« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2011, 10:38:03 AM »
Well, he has a vet coming round every week.
We have a place like that in Holland, Dierenthuis.
They have hundreds of cats, ferals as well as AIDS and leukemia cats.
A vet clinic from Amsterdam treats them, most of the time for free, it is THEIR donation to the place.

Offline Susanne (urbantigers)

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Re: welcome to catsville...how cute is this!
« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2011, 09:31:09 AM »
The cost of veterinary treatment for that many cats must be enormous.  I just don't see how he can do it, even with donations.

Offline JackSpratt

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Re: welcome to catsville...how cute is this!
« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2011, 08:42:48 AM »
Sadly, it's believed that the cats aren't getting medical treatment there due to finances and people are concerned about neglect. That's what I read anyway. His heart's in the right place, though.




Carrie, Jack,Toby and Parsley ~ Love and miss you all always.x

Offline Jiskefet

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Re: welcome to catsville...how cute is this!
« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2011, 16:48:22 PM »
It looks like a cats' paradise to me.
He obviously loves and cuddles them, the cats love him, too, and they are not locked up in a house, they can roam the grounds as they please. There are many cats, of course, so they will get less human attention than a domestic cat, but he has volunteers working with him, and the cats have each other. You can see they have close social groups and get along very well.

I see something similar with my own cats. They are one big family, not only within my household, but with the other cats in the street, too.....

Offline Susanne (urbantigers)

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Re: welcome to catsville...how cute is this!
« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2011, 07:53:36 AM »
It was also featured recently on this programme

http://www.purrsinourhearts.co.uk/index.php/topic,37581.0.html

I don't know when that was filmed and obviously a 10 min segment on a tv programme can't show the whole picture, but the cats looked well cared for and they said a vet visited once a week to check over any cats that showed signs of being ill.  The cats do, obviously, live in a semi feral state as there's no way one person can look after that many cats in the way that you would look after a domestic pet.

Offline thekittensmittens

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Re: welcome to catsville...how cute is this!
« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2011, 00:00:18 AM »
Thanks for bringing the other thread to my attention Gill- I found the site purely by accident after googling building a cat garden :shy:

I think the FAQ section here
http://www.caboodleranch.com/FAQs.html brings answers to a few questions.
looking through the pics of the cats on his site I would say they all look amazing, they are all huge though :wow:
Im not sure what is going on - I hope its not a hate campaign from others who just dont like what he is doing there :(
maybe a purrs trip is in order-purely for research of course ;)
Im going to have a look at what the groups complaining about the ranch have as evidence in their favour as from what ive looked at on his site the photos if recent (runs through easter etc) all seem to show healthy happy cats :Crazy:

Offline Gillian Harvey

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Re: welcome to catsville...how cute is this!
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2011, 22:06:42 PM »
Thats the place where there's been all that controversy about recently,

 http://www.purrsinourhearts.co.uk/index.php/topic,36946.0.html

Offline kerri86

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Re: welcome to catsville...how cute is this!
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2011, 21:12:32 PM »
oh my goodness that's fantastic.. though I just thought that Gill re what if the money runs out or something happens to him - is there anybody else that would take them all on?

That's my idea of heaven to be honest, imagine it, you would never ever feel like you don't get any hugs ever again lol!!
xx
<3 Tinks   xxXxx
<3 Davey xxXxx

 


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