post-op infection

[Fire Fox]

I'm glad Ginger is OK but find it odd how slow most vets and doctors are at accepting probiotics. Personally I don't think the fact that a cat doesn't get diarrhea after ABs should mean that probiotics aren't a good idea. A good gut flora is important for so many things. I will try to find the link again, but a while ago I found a website about 'friendly' bacteria. They are beginning to discover that different strains have different functions in the body - an important one is keeping 'bad' bacteria at bay, but others support health in lots of other ways.

Agree 100%, in my line of work it is incredibly frustrating - the scientific evidence for many natural treatments (physical activity, nutrition, certain supplements) is overwhelming yet prescription drugs with side effects continue to be overprescribed.  The occasional course of probiotics can be hugely beneficial, like you I speak from personal experience as well as that of my (human) clients.

AFAIK there is no risk at all to taking probiotics, no negative side effects. Well unless you count the risk to the drug companies revenue stream! I wouldn't mind betting drug reps wine and dine vets just as they do the medics. Lowly pharmacists and technicians got a few sarnies, they knew we adhered to the local formulary. If we were lucky the vegetarian option would be ... chicken mayo. 

[Mark]

I'm glad Ginger is OK but find it odd how slow most vets and doctors are at accepting probiotics. Personally I don't think the fact that a cat doesn't get diarrhea after ABs should mean that probiotics aren't a good idea. A good gut flora is important for so many things. I will try to find the link again, but a while ago I found a website about 'friendly' bacteria. They are beginning to discover that different strains have different functions in the body - an important one is keeping 'bad' bacteria at bay, but others support health in lots of other ways. I can't remember all the things but some of them helped the body fight cancer, some help to excrete waste products, others help assimilate vitamins etc.

I saw this thread once and it convinced me to keep taking them myself! 

http://www.innvista.com/health/nutrition/biotics/proborg.htm

This is the list of what just one strain does 

L. plantarum has many significant uses including:

    Preserving key nutrients, vitamins, and antioxidants
    Manufacturing vitamins B1, B2, B3, B5, B6, B12, vitamins A and K, and short chain of fatty acids
    Helping to produce “lactolin”, a natural antibiotic
    Contributing to the destruction of moulds, viruses, and parasites
    Eradicating such pathogens as Staphylococcus aureus from fermented food
    Helping to maintain healthy cholesterol and triglycerine levels
    Increasing the number of immune system cells
    Providing protection from such environmental toxins as pesticides and pollutants
    Reducing toxic waste at the cellular level
    Stimulating the repair mechanism of cells
    Synthesizing the anti-viral amino acid, L-lysine
    Producing glycolytic enzymes which degrade cyanogenic glycosides
    Eliminating toxic components from food including nitrates

[JenGeorgieBob]

well, back from the vets with Ginger for her check up.
I was worried as the infection hadn't seemed to go down but the vet said that most of it is actually inflammation rather than pus.
She has some more antibiotics to take so that it is a longer course. I have been told to express it once a day to try and keep the pus flowing  but not to bathe it in warm water or anything.
She said pro-biotics were not necessary unless she has really runny poo then look at it again.
She said they normally like to check on this sort of thing every 3 days but they close tomorrow lunchtime and then re-open Wednesday after christmas, so if I feel it is necessary to take Ginger to the on-call vet on Monday but that I will have to pay emergency call out fees. 
I just want her to be better, I said I was worried about the infection spreading and Ginger getting poorly, but the vet had a good feel and said that the deeper spay wounds have healed and the infection is seperate from the muscle and is just below the surface of the skin so it is under control.
She did seem like a good vet, just not as friendly as the last one...just have to give the antibiotics time to work.

[Gill (sneakiefeline)]

Lacto B is a probiotic for cats and comes as a very fine powder which you add to food.

Hope Ginger improves rapidly 

[Mark]

Human probiotics don't usually have vit c in. You can't really OD on them, so if you want to use a human one, I'm sure it is fine - just double-check there are no nasties in, but unlikely - There are species-specific strains of organism but a lot are common. You could get some in the chemists and sprinkle a bit in her food (make sure they are capsules as tablets are usually flavoured). Apparently they are best given in something fatty like cream cheese so more of the organisms survive the acidic environment of the stomach to do their job in the gut, which is alkaline. I use enteric-coated probiotics but don't think there is an animal version.

[souffle]

Poor Ginger. I hope she heals up soon. It sounds as if the infection is localised in and under the skin and possibly under the glued area and this could be why is is not actually oozing out as it would with just stitches. The meds should kick in at maximum effect in 3 days. Vetark make another probiotic called Avipro which is similar to ProC but does not have the vitC in it and the vet may stock this. You can get it online though unlikely before Christmas. Most vets will have something similar. The probiotics will also boost the immune system though they must be given as far away from the antibiotic as possible or else the meds will kill all the friendly bacteria.
Hope she is better soon xx

[Janeyk]

Poor Ginger, glad to hear that things are seeming better though and she seems well on herself, give her a cuddle from me 

[JenGeorgieBob]

Thanks again for the advice (this website is the best, everyone is so helpful, knowledgeable and caring!!!)
I will ask at the vets about the probiotic then, so far her poo is firm, same as normal really.
I think it looks a little bit better today, but I haven't been able to have a close look, breakfast has gone down so it is mad run around time and she does not want to stay still!

At least she is still her normal self, eating like a little piggy and running around causing mayhem and getting her brother into trouble, I think if it was bothering her I would be even more worried!

She is not too bad to pill either, just pop it in her mouth and it doesn't stress her out.

I suppose I could do her antibiotics as normal but give her some extra dried food a bit later in the day and give her the probiotics then? So she would have a little lunch in order to get some probiotics in her during the antibiotic course.

Again thanks for all the help, you guys are fab!!! 

[Tiggy's Mum]

Poor Ginger No practical advice, just wanted to send her a gentle head kiss Hope the antibiotics quick in and it clears up quickly 

[Fire Fox]

I agree with everything Mark has said, as always he manages the balance between support and plain speaking well. Live yoghurt is good, but freeze-dried probiotics are far more concentrated (millions to billions) and easier to store/ administer. Pets at Home have this
http://www.petsathome.com/shop/proc-probiotic-100gm-by-vetark-15796

Most ingredients are cat-friendly but please run past your vet as I don't know the effect of high dose vitamin C on felines. I have heard of smaller doses of the human version (Acidophilus capsules from Holland and Barrett) being given to cats, again please run past your vet for confirmation. If freeze dried the probiotics must be stored in the fridge once opened and given with or after food so the stomach acid doesn't kill the good guys off!  As Mark says you should try to separate probiotics from the dose of antibiotics but, if that is impossible, focus on giving them after the course is complete.

With all my knowledge I would be just as worried as you - it's easy to spout logic and science when it is not your furball.   You know you are doing your utmost and the spay is best for her long term health, this infection is a hiccup ... remember the World Health Organisation describes health as "a state of complete physical, mental and social well-being and not merely the absence of disease or infirmity." On that basis? Lucky Ginger!

[JenGeorgieBob]

Would Pets at Home sell a probiotic? there is one on the way too and from the vets so I could pop in then and get some for her, last time for Benji I think I used live yoghurt but he was not impressed with the taste, lol.
They gave her an injection and I have to give her 2 tablets a day, begins with an N and is a penicillin, I would check the name, but I have a Fred on my lap.
I did wonder how the infection came about, she did not lick it but I can't say that Fred didn't lick it for her when I wasn't looking or even she licked it while I wasn't looking. Up until it was squeezed she had shown no interest in the wound at all, just the bald patch where the fur begins. I don't think Benji licked it as he didn't like the smell of the kittens when they came home, so avoided them.

It's amazing how much they wrap their little paws round your heartstrings isn't it?

[Mark]

Poor Ginger 

I assume the vet looked at her. Firefox has already said most of it. I assume they gave her a large dose of AB. The infection shouldn't get any worse, but if it is systemic, it is hard to tell if a cat has a temperature, although they are likely to go off their food. If it is producing more pus than the ABs can deal with, she will need some kind of drainage so I would keep an eye out. If there is no way she could have licked the wound, I would personally have to question hygiene practices at the vets - infections don't come from nowhere  (the reason vets do dentals last each day before sterilising everything).

I agree about giving probiotics but they should be given a couple of hours after ABs - not an issue if the AB is intravenous - ie convenia.

I am really surprised doctors and vets don't recommend probiotics as a matter of course.

[JenGeorgieBob]

The vet nurse did ask for a vets opinion, I didn't think about inflammation but that does make sense seeing as it was squeezed when she was there...
I suppose I am thinking of it as an abscess because there is nowhere for the pus to come out, but if it does get reabsorbed then thats where it would go...
Thanks for the advice, I think I am just worried and impatient for her to feel better, I feel like I should have spotted it sooner and I really don't want the infection to spread and for her to get poorly, her and Fred have already been through so much in their little lives it just seems like one thing after another.
At least her appointment is on Thursday so it won't be too long before she sees the vet again.
Thanks for the advice and the reassurance 

[Fire Fox]

  

As far as I can recall pus is primarily 'casualties of battle' - once the infection is under control this can be reabsorbed. You should be more concerned if the wound fails to heal properly than if it heals beautifully. Assuming the correct antibiotics are used in the correct dose for the correct amount of time, all bacteria in Ginger's system will be killed. If there was a systemic (widespread) infection there most definitely would be a rise in body temperature, just as a localised infection causes the site to feel warmer than usual.

It is only necessary to drain infections if there is an abscess; these are walled off infections and don't respond well to antibiotics. These can be a particular problem if they burst causing a systemic infection or if the contents put pressure on another tissue/ organ sufficient to prevent normal function or cause damage. Not all the swelling you see/ feel will be pus, inflammation is a normal part of the healing process and/ or the immune system recognising an intruder. A skilled medic should be able to tell the difference between inflammation and an abscess.

As an aside, in some types of joint injury there is evidence showing that the use of anti-inflammatory medications actually slows the healing process down!  It would be worthwhile getting hold of some probiotics (friendly bacteria that reside in the gut) as these will be killed by the course of antibiotics and are an important part of an animal's immune system. Do check everything I have said with the vet or vet nurse as my microbiology is pretty rusty!   

[clarenmax]

Aw poor Ginger   I hope the abs clear this up quickly 

[Gill (sneakiefeline)]

I dont know to be honest but if only a vet nurse has looked at it I would demand to see the vet.

Depending on what abs they take 24-48 hrs to kick in..............Convenia takes 48 usually

I would be very worried like you and do hope this clears up fast 

[JenGeorgieBob]

Gingers spay wound is infected 
I noticed it looked a bit puffy but thought it was normal, until I gently pressed it and pus came out. She has been to the vets and they have given her some antibiotics and she is due to go back Thursday. What I am worried about is that the infection is still in there, it is a sizeable pocket of pus I can see and feel which does not seem to be coming out as the skin heals over it. I thought the vets would have tried to drain it but the vet nurse said it is not necessary as she is on antibiotics now, is that right? How long should it take for the antibiotics to work and the size of the 'pus-pocket'  decreases? It seems to be the same size, if not bigger, but she was only at the vets yesterday and had an injection and one pill this morning, so am I being too impatient?
The manager of the RSPCA where Ginger is from and I volunteer was very surprised to hear it was infected and said it is very rare for it to happen, but suggested that it could be that her immune system isn't all that good due to her being so ill as a young kitten.
She is acting fine in herself, does not have a temperature and is due back at the vets 1.10pm on Thursday so it won't be too long until she is seen by a vet, but I am a worrier and wanted some opinions

Jen