Topic: Agghhhh - poor cats (Read 13903 times)

JackSpratt · « **Reply #60 on:** February 28, 2007, 13:08:50 PM »

Whooosh - **the sound of all this going over my head!**

Hippykitty · « **Reply #59 on:** February 28, 2007, 12:59:06 PM »

Sorry if this is controversial, but this is all too much like eugenics, and we know who made that infamous!

ccmacey · « **Reply #58 on:** February 25, 2007, 11:43:04 AM »

I know nothing about all them numbers and that but I suppose if you can get an exotic shorthair you could get an exotic longhair? Going to have a look on the net.

COSMIC CREEPERS · « **Reply #57 on:** February 25, 2007, 00:33:16 AM »

hello all i have the pink transfer slip here

mangos dad - BREED NO - 70 19 COLOUR - red tabby exotic SH REG NO - CSSR 388117
mangos mum - BREED NO - 11 COLOUR - tortoiseshell LH REG NO - CS 449649
MANGO - BREED NO - 70 15dv COLOUR - red self LH XC VA REG NO - 70 15dv

When i bought mango the breeder said that mangos dad was a EX SH but mum a persian so mango is a persian as she has long hair ( she doesnt have a clue ) she is also on the active reg but i would never breed her as she is not a persian so it would be pointless breeding to anouther persian , i do see the point in breeding a male ex to a persian to keep the breed type of the exotic but not the persian dam to the exotic sire .what annoyed me is that she charged me a lot of money saying that she was a persian on the active reg she said there is no such thing as a exotic longhair
we love mango all the same

Millys Mum · « **Reply #56 on:** February 23, 2007, 19:53:17 PM »

Reynard · « **Reply #55 on:** February 23, 2007, 18:18:57 PM »

I think that it'd be more likely to be Exotic Variant as opposed to Longhair (Persian), since Persians are only bred like to like since that's the only way they'd breed true. I guess the ultimate proof would be Mango's paperwork, though as she is a pet as opposed to a breed / show cat, the difference between a Persian and a longhaired Exotic variant is pretty academic really.

The Exotic gene pool is certainly large enought to breed Exotic to Exotic, but even this is still likely to throw up the odd longhair kitten if both parents carry the gene - will be a ratio of 3:1 SH to LH. But breeding like to like can, according to the blurb on the website I referenced, lead to a deterioration in type and coat, hence the inclusion of Persians in the Exotic breeding programme. If left as is, the Exotic would tend towards BSH characteristics (the original outcross in the UK) as opposed to having the appearance of a SH Persian.

Susanne (urbantigers) · « **Reply #54 on:** February 23, 2007, 17:56:12 PM »

Yes - that's what I think is the case. The exotic must have been carrying long hair which when mated with a persian produced a long haired kitten. But would such a kitten be called a persian or an exotic longhair variant? For registration purposes that is, I guess it doesn't matter in practice if the cat is not being shown or bred. I wouldn't have thought persian breeders would need to (or want to) breed persians to exotics as that would produce short haired offspring and I'd have thought the persian gene pool would be large enough for there to be no need for anything other than persian x persian matings. I can understand why exotic breeders would want to use persians as exotics haven't been around as long.

Gill (sneakiefeline) · « **Reply #53 on:** February 23, 2007, 17:53:20 PM »

Ooooooooooooooo Genetics is so interesting but so complicated

Reynard · « **Reply #52 on:** February 23, 2007, 17:42:06 PM »

Susanne, as far as I am aware, Longhair (Persian) breeders only breed Persian to Persian because the gene for longhair is recessive and this is the only way that Persians breed true. I haven't got it to hand, but the catalogue for the Exotic Shorthair Cat Society show gives the parentage of the pedigree exhibits but from what I recall, it seemed that the typical outcross mating was putting a Persian stud to an Exotic queen. I can check that for you if you want, but it wouldn't make any difference which way round the mating was as hair length is not sex-linked.

The thing is, because Persians are used in the Exotic breeding programme, some registered pedigree Exotics carry the recessive gene for long hair. As short hair is dominant, any kittens resulting from a Persian-Exotic mating (regardless of which way round it is) will ALL be short haired and therefore can be fully registered as Exotics even if they carry the gene for longhair (heterozygous). That's why Exotic to Exotic matings can occasionally throw up the odd longhaired variant kitten.

What seems to have happened with Mango (from what I understand from your explanation) is that the Exotic stud used by this lady for her Persian queen MUST have been carrying the recessive gene for long hair, resulting in at least one Exotic variant in the litter. If the stud was homozygous for short hair, then this would not have happened.

Susanne (urbantigers) · « **Reply #51 on:** February 23, 2007, 17:20:34 PM »

Hey Reynard - we needed you a week or so ago on another thread!

We were discussing Mango's parentage and breeding programmes! I know about variants (having a somali I know about Abysinnian and Somali variants) but what was confusing me about Mango is that Mango's mum was a persian and her dad was an exotic, apparently (although exotic variant seems more likely). It seems that Mango's breeder bred her persian to a friend's exotic on a bit of a whim and I was wondering whether it made any difference which way around the parents were - ie I can understand that someone breeding exotics might breed an exotic queen with a persian for type but would someone with a persian breeding programme breed a persian queen to an exotic? And is that allowed under GCCF rules?

Reynard · « **Reply #50 on:** February 23, 2007, 16:58:05 PM »

Quote from: COSMIC CREEPERS on February 19, 2007, 12:20:10 PM

the breeder has been wrong in the way that she has lied about what exactly i was buying but even though mango is a LH EXOTIC she is a persian to us ( especially as there exactly the same looking )

The breeding programmes for Longhairs (Persians) and Exotics are often run in parallel, with Longhairs used in breeding Exotics to maintain type.

What you do need to keep in mind, is that the gene that produces long hair in a cat is recessive, so it will only breed true when you mate Longhair to Longhair. Exotics are bred by mating either Exotic to Exotic or Exotic to Longhair - as the gene for shorthair is dominant, the kittens of an Exotic to Longhair mating will always be Exotics although genetically they are heterozygous i.e. they carry the gene for long hair. From what I understand, the latter mating is still the most common and if cats from these matings are then bred together i.e. heterozygous Exotic to heterozygous Exotic, you will have a ratio of 3 Exotics to one Longhair in the litter of kittens - and two of the shorthair Exotic kits will carry the gene for long hair.

To quote from the Exotic Shorthair Cat Society webpage on breeding (http://www.exoticshorthaircatsociety.co.uk/breedexotics.html) "Longhair (Persian Type) cats should be used as an integral part of any breeding programme in order to maintain type, conformation and quality of coat." The longhaired exotic variants (like Mango) are still registered pedigrees, but they are placed on the GCCF reference register and cannot be shown. They can however, be used as an integral part of a breeding programme from what I understand. The same issue applies to some other breeds e.g. Selkirk Rex.

If Mango is registered as an Exotic, her breed number should be 70.xx - most likely 70.15d (red self) or 70.19 (red tabby) from what I can tell. If you have her paperwork, you should be able to find this out. If she is a Longhair (Persian), her breed number will be in the low single or double figures depending on her exact colour / pattern.

Though to be honest, if what you bought was a pet quality kitten (not for show or breed) then it truly doesn't matter whether she is an Exotic or a Longhair, since as I've explained, Persians and Exotics are part of the same breeding programme anyway. However, when you do go and visit a breeder, it is your responsability to ask the right questions about the cat / breed you are intending to purchase, but if you were sold an Exotic variant as a Longhair, then you really should take it up with the GCCF (or FIFe or TICA if relevant).

JackSpratt · « **Reply #49 on:** February 23, 2007, 16:11:26 PM »

OK, this guy is REALLY annoying me!:

Jones
Private
Sheffield, South Yorks, UK
Approx. 20 miles

Today
Description
I am looking for an odd eyed kitten or young cat, preferably female. Either pedigree or crossbreed. Unspayed. If pedigree then on active reigister. Very good price paid.

Anybody a member of preloved?

Linda (Bengalbabe) · « **Reply #48 on:** February 21, 2007, 22:01:41 PM »

HI Dawn, if you e-mail them to me I'll post them for you - dying to see the gorgeous girl

Dawn F · « **Reply #47 on:** February 21, 2007, 09:31:53 AM »

Tilly only has tantrams if you pick her up when she doesn't want to be picked up and fortunately the tummy troubles she grew out of at about 5 months! I'd love to post a pick but can't because they are all too pick and I am rubbish with technology!

Gill (sneakiefeline) · « **Reply #46 on:** February 20, 2007, 19:29:33 PM »

Linda (Bengalbabe) · « **Reply #45 on:** February 20, 2007, 18:58:02 PM »

Yep, bengals do have sensitive tums and you need to be very careful with feeding.

Lenny, Loki and Lubo are mortified to be described as having "Toddler Behaviour Problems"

They think they are big leopards

Michelle (furbabystar) · « **Reply #44 on:** February 20, 2007, 16:48:56 PM »

As you know i have 10 cats - 9 are moggies and Freddy J is a Tonkenese.
It wasnt the case of wanting a "pedigree", I really wanted a Red point Siamese because of the look but couldnt put up with the "noise" so when i saw the Tonkenese i feel in love ! Almost the same look but without the Vocals lol

I love how Bengals look but having worked with a few i found that they all seem to have the dodgy tummys and toddler behaviour problems lol so knew they werent for me !

Susanne (urbantigers) · « **Reply #43 on:** February 20, 2007, 14:02:18 PM »

I met Mosi's mum's breeder at a cat show. I got chatting to her and you know how you stop and admire the cats and chat with exhibitors/breeders. It was shortly after Magpie had died and we had a good long chat about Somalis (I'd already done research into the breed but hadn't made my mind up completely), introducing a new cat to Jaffa etc. I took a card and kept an eye on her website. Shortly after xmas some kittens appeared on her website and I also looked at the somali cat club website and noticed the same kittens on there but with a different breeder's name. I also recognised the kitten's father's name and prefix - it was a cattery that seemed to do well in cat shows etc. I contacted the first breeder and it turned out that she had bred the mum and was helping out the mum's new owners as this was their first litter. She did have some kittens due later in the year but suggested I went to look at these kittens, which I did and the rest is history! I suppose I was lucky in that they were obviously good breeders as I don't think I could have said no to those fluffy little bundles curled up asleep on the sofa when I went to look at them! But I do like to think my preparation paid off and that it wasn't purely luck that found me a good breeder. I still email both the breeders sending pics etc. A cat club doesn't guarantee a good breeder but it helps and is a good place to start. It's a shame when a breeder doesn't show interest in following the progress of kittens but I suppose the important thing is that they adhere to rules and guidelines re breeding and produce healthy, well socialised kittens.

Linda (Bengalbabe) · « **Reply #42 on:** February 20, 2007, 12:52:47 PM »

Yep that just not on Dawn. I'd love to see a pic of your baby

Unfortunately being a member of the breed club does not guarantee much. I joined the bengal cat forum before getting my boys, met a few breeders and spoke to loads of people who had bengals and asked about their experiences. Thats what made me really comfortable in dealing with the breeders I have.

They are 2 of the best people I have ever met and I now count them amongst my friends

Susanne (urbantigers) · « **Reply #41 on:** February 20, 2007, 11:26:10 AM »

Very mean of her!

I'm still in contact with Mosi's breeder and the breeder of Mosi's mum (who took Mosi's brother to be a stud cat - Mosi reckons he got dealt the wrong hand there

) and send them photos of Mosi, chat etc.

COSMIC CREEPERS · « **Reply #40 on:** February 20, 2007, 11:01:56 AM »

thats just meen of her dawn

i did the same with moomin and she wasnt bothered either

i would have been bothered

Gill (sneakiefeline) · « **Reply #39 on:** February 19, 2007, 20:33:22 PM »

Yes it is Cosmic and long shall it stay that way

COSMIC CREEPERS · « **Reply #38 on:** February 19, 2007, 20:00:58 PM »

int it nice to have a freindly debait without been nasty

Gill (sneakiefeline) · « **Reply #37 on:** February 19, 2007, 18:39:58 PM »

I think that everyone will do what they believe is the right thing to do, experience sometimes changes our opinions.

I have 4 cats all rescued and two are pedigrees that were passed from mother to daughter and then to me. They are not bad boys but they have characters

My two moggie rescues also have characters

and CP did not tell me the truth about one of them but I love them to bits and have even just had a tail up from Madam Sasa, so thats very nice.

I would hate to see the breeds die out but would like to see better control over pedigree breeders, but in the real world like with any breeder, any control is unenforceable. This does not just go for cats but also for dogs.

Sam (Fussy_Furball) · « **Reply #36 on:** February 19, 2007, 18:20:35 PM »

Quote from: Linda (Bengalbabe) on February 19, 2007, 17:46:34 PM

Well said Gillian, I too have my moggie whom I love very much and make regular monthly donations to cat rescue IN ADDITION to having my pedigree bengals.

Me to ... i have my gorgeous little rescue Rossi (who is my special little lap cat

) as well as my two Abys and I also make regular monthly donations to cat resuce.

Linda (Bengalbabe) · « **Reply #35 on:** February 19, 2007, 17:46:34 PM »

Well said Gillian, I too have my moggie whom I love very much and make regular monthly donations to cat rescue IN ADDITION to having my pedigree bengals.

Gillian Harvey · « **Reply #34 on:** February 19, 2007, 17:41:10 PM »

Quote from: Hippykitty on February 19, 2007, 09:27:19 AM

Why do people want to buy pedigrees when they can give a good home to a cat who is living in a shelter?

Its about preference, but theres no reason why people can't do both! I have rescue mogs, rescue pedigree persians, and pedigree persians from my friend who used to breed, all lovely and all deserving of good homes.

Linda (Bengalbabe) · « **Reply #33 on:** February 19, 2007, 17:04:08 PM »

Agree with all comments made. People do need to be aware of the personality of the breed they are interested in and do their research properly in advance and make 100% sure they are in a position to offer the right home and care levels. I spent a considerable amount of time doing my research and understanding the bengal breed before getting my boys and was (and remain) absolutely sure they were the right cats for me

That said, I will defend the reputable bengal breeders who are out there and spend a lot of time educating the public on the breed before selling their kittens to them. With both the boys and Nova's breeders the relationship grew over a period of months and I spent a lot of time persuading these breeders I was the right person to home their bengal to.

I do however accept (like many breeds) there are a growing number of backyard bengal breeders offering people a 'cheap alternative'. They will continue to do so whilst people want to buy their kittens from them.

Susanne (urbantigers) · « **Reply #32 on:** February 19, 2007, 15:14:58 PM »

Quote from: Ela on February 19, 2007, 14:59:13 PM

Quote
posted about the possiblity of removing the voice box of his bengal because he was annoyed by the noise it made...

That is a disgrace, you would think any breeder worth their salt had made sure that anyone adopting a breed knew of all it characteristics

Inideed. Unfortunately it's very probable they got the kitten from a backyard breeder. There seems to be quite a market in backyard breeders for breeds such as bengals - ie popular but expensive - and many people happy to get a "bargain"

Ela · « **Reply #31 on:** February 19, 2007, 14:59:13 PM »

Quote

posted about the possiblity of removing the voice box of his bengal because he was annoyed by the noise it made...

That is a disgrace, you would think any breeder worth their salt had made sure that anyone adopting a breed knew of all it characteristics

Desley (booktigger) · « **Reply #30 on:** February 19, 2007, 13:16:55 PM »

Susanne - I think it is the energy levels that mean most Bengals end up in rescue - I love the look of them, but I dont think I Could cope with a high energy cat, so I wont ever have one (unless I foster one and cope of course). I also love the look of longhaired cats, but until I can foster one and find out if I can cope with the upkeep, I shan't be having one. I do think that responsble breeders have a place, esp with some of the breeds that have been round for hundreds of years, but I disagree with creating new breeds, and I think the amount of new breeders should be very carefully monitored to avoid too many being born, I also think there are certain standards that should be met by breeders first, esp in light of what you read on forums - I can think of 2 on here this year alone that should be prevented from breeding further. Incidentally, the only way I can see myself having a pedigree is if one comes up in rescue that I fall in love with and circumstances mean I can say yes - it would prob have to be an oldie too.

Dawn F · « **Reply #29 on:** February 19, 2007, 13:06:21 PM »

I can't imagine not ever having a bengal but would definately go down the rescue cat route next time

Susanne (urbantigers) · « **Reply #28 on:** February 19, 2007, 12:59:46 PM »

A bit off topic but - on another forum I use someone (not a regular poster) posted about the possiblity of removing the voice box of his bengal because he was annoyed by the noise it made...

Can you believe that? Apparently he had done no research on the breed and found he couldn't cope with their purrsonality and behaviour. (Needless to say many people posted that he should not even consider doing that). I do think that's the reason quite a few bengals end up in rescues. They are stunning cats that are becoming popular (which means more back yard breeders selling them) and it's amazing the number of people who don't research the breed before they get one and then find they cant cope. Same with persians and their grooming needs.

Ela · « **Reply #27 on:** February 19, 2007, 12:39:45 PM »

Quote

I would not be without my bengals but

Last year we took in a lovely unneutered Bengal and named him Suni after finding him in a pub car park (named The Sun) Unfortunately he was found to be FIV poss however, he is fine and has now a loving indoor home.

Cheesecat · « **Reply #26 on:** February 19, 2007, 12:33:09 PM »

Quote from: COSMIC CREEPERS on February 19, 2007, 12:20:10 PM

been treat like a fool from mangos breeder has not put me off just means i will not be messed with next time

Did you find out if there is anything you can do about it? Obviously I know you want to keep Mango and I dont mean giving her back - but could you pass her name onto whoever she is supposed to be registered with? (I havent a clue about pedigrees, can you tell?! lol

)

I hope other people have read your thread too and will research into breeders alot more before getting a pedigree kitty from a breeder.

Have you posted pictures of Mango by the way?

Hippykitty · « **Reply #25 on:** February 19, 2007, 12:26:46 PM »

But PLEASE Cosmic, don't become a breeder yourself, at least not until you are far more knowledgeable on the subject.

Linda (Bengalbabe) · « **Reply #24 on:** February 19, 2007, 12:26:10 PM »

Yep, I second that Suzanne. I have the bengals and a moggie whom I rescued. Both breeders and rescue were very helpful and concerned around the type of home their babies were going to. I don't think you can say breeders care more than rescues or vice versa, I'm afraid its down to the individuals running them. That said there are breeders out there who are very good, are breeding for the right reasons and care very much about their kittens. Lubo, Lenny and Loki's breeder is still in touch with me on a fortnightly basis asking how the boys are doing as is Nova's. I would not be without my bengals but accept that some do not agree with ownership/breeding of pedigree cats.

COSMIC CREEPERS · « **Reply #23 on:** February 19, 2007, 12:20:10 PM »

its ok i know a lot of people do agree with you

after guss died and i struggled so long with him , i saved hard and 2 yrs later bought mango as i had always wanted a persian but having children of my own then wanted to get one were i knew we could bring her up to be a happy safe pet

the breeder has been wrong in the way that she has lied about what exactly i was buying but even though mango is a LH EXOTIC she is a persian to us ( especially as there exactly the same looking )

I do also have moomin she is now 2 yrs i got her from a lady who found a stray that had 5 kittens moomin was the only one who survived and i took her at 7 wk as she had nowere to live ( the lady was keeping the stray but not the kitten ) i met the stray and she was also lovely temprement
so im not all bad

been treat like a fool from mangos breeder has not put me off just means i will not be messed with next time

Susanne (urbantigers) · « **Reply #22 on:** February 19, 2007, 12:15:46 PM »

Quote from: COSMIC CREEPERS on February 19, 2007, 12:03:33 PM

im sure im not the only person to have bought a pedigree from a breeder

No you're not

I've been involved in this discussion too many times to feel like getting involved again

but I just wanted to reassure you that you're not the only person on here with a pedigree cat (bought from a breeder). A few of us have pedigrees. I have one pedigree and one rescue. I have to say I had no problems with Jaffa (or his brother Magpie until he died from a blood clot in his neck age 8 ) despite him being a rescue of unknown parentage and history, except for Jaffa being very timid around people he doesnt' know (I don't think he was well socialised as a kitten). Mosi was from a breeder and is the complete opposite - confident, happy, healthy, outgoing and extremely well socialised.

I think the distinction between pedigree and non pedigree is a bit of a red herring, as breeding pedigree cats and registering them with the GCCF doesnt' a good breeder make (neither, sadly, does being a show judge although you'd think it ought to). In my book there are just good, reputable breeders (the minority) and bad breeders, although of course the line between those 2 is not always clear. The latter, of course, should not be breeding. You'll find differences of opinion on whether the former should. As I have a pedigree cat I think it's obvious what my opinion is!

Cheesecat · « **Reply #21 on:** February 19, 2007, 12:06:10 PM »

no no there are lots of people that have... I am not attacking you, sorry if it seemed that way!

I have just read your posts about Mango and I cannot believe the breeder you got her from is getting away with what she is!

Its just that personally I could not do it - I dont have the money anyway, but even if I did, I think I would rather give the money to a cat charity and take a moggy kitty rather than a pedigree - or get a pedigree from a rescue - everyone is different of course. I am not right or wrong, I am just me

Author Topic: Agghhhh - poor cats (Read 13903 times)

ccmacey