What's the youngest a cat can be spayed?

[Susanne (urbantigers)]

I'd say the USA should follow us, rather than the other way around.

They are happy to neuter dogs at a very early age even though there is a lot of research against it (early neutering has lots of negative effects in dogs).

I don't know about dogs, but there is not research against it in cats.  Quite the contrary - the research that has been carried out indicates no adverse effects in cats that are neutered at a young age.

When I was looking for kittens 11 years ago, I spoke to someone at the rspca about some - they were going to be neutered before rehoming, so clearly they have been doing it for some time.  But lets not forget that many vets in the USA won't do it either - it's far from universal over there.

 

[JackSpratt]

Little Tyke is approximately 3 1/2 months. So if I was allowed to get the spay done at 4 months, it wouldn't be far off. The first cat I cared for off Freecycle HAD to be spayed at four months - she started calling.

I'd like to think the vet doing anything to any of my animals had some experience but you can generally tell a good vet anyway. my two favourites at the practice I use regularly are an established Aussie bloke who is ace, and a newcomer who I think qualified quite recently. She's good with the animals and if she isn't 100% sure shewon't pretend to be just to save face - she'll ask someone with more experience.

Sadly,I'm good at starting debates Rosella!

[Rosella moggy]

Well what a debate. Didn't notice this going on. What have you started JS? 

How old is our little Astryd now i.e. how long are we talking about before her big day?  I so understand your concern at her possibly getting out. It's bad enough having to keep a newbie in that's already had the op.

For what it's worth, I would much prefer my vet to be experienced rather than recently qualified.  Obviously vets have to go on courses to keep up to date and they build on their knowledge as a result of the courses and practical experience over the years.  Whilst I have been in my line of work for over 30 years (god help me), I think it often stands me in good stead to offer better advice than someone new to the field. Whilst I feel tired at times    I don't think of the advice I give as antiquated 

[JackSpratt]

the microchip (which is quite painful)

Although not about this topic the above was included in a post. All I will say is that we chip all our kittens/cats before homing. Most of them don't even flinch.

I was going to comment on that. None of my cats have ever seemed at all bothered by microchipping; even Jack who had to have it done twice because they underestimated how thick his skin was and it popped back out the first time!

[Den]

I'd say the USA should follow us, rather than the other way around.

They are happy to neuter dogs at a very early age even though there is a lot of research against it (early neutering has lots of negative effects in dogs).

[Ela]

the microchip (which is quite painful)

Although not about this topic the above was included in a post. All I will say is that we chip all our kittens/cats before homing. Most of them don't even flinch.

[Ela]

cats are photo-estrus so they only come into season usually when the nights get lighter in the spring.  This means that a kitten born in summer will not ususally come into season until around March the next year.

If only that were true, unfortunately it is not. Nowadays cats come into season at all times of year and sadly kittens are having kittens.

[Desley (booktigger)]

Actually, MM, I dont think that is true, as the rescue near me have been doing it for at least 15 years, i must ask the other 2 rescues I know who neuter early how long their vets have done it, I know one of hte rescues has done it for 5 years - and neither of those two are RSPCA, although the second does use an RSPCA vet.

[Millys Mum]

If you went back a decade and operated on 8 week old kittens a high % would die as the drugs have improved dramatically since then.

My vets are on the older side of things (hoping they dont retire early  ) but that doesnt stop them from going to seminars and learning the same new techniques that trainee vets are learning.
The vet schools arent giving new vets the ideas its a personal choice whether or not they want to perform a non life saving op on a small animal.
Fortunately many vets work alongside a rescue and can see the benefits of doing so.

[Christine (Blip)]

Oh and yes, there are techniques/strategies that are "antiquated" and still being used in the UK, in many areas of life. As older generations die off and newer/younger ones take over, things generally improve for the better. This is a fact (I can give many examples, in particular, economics and medicine). I know some people like to think that the old ways are/were always the best, but most of the time I dont believe this is the case.

I think progress has more to do with the accumulating body of research than the rise of each succeeding generation per se.  'Standing on the shoulders of giants' as it is often described.  There is a nice little explanation at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standing_on_the_shoulders_of_giants

[Desley (booktigger)]

There are other issues such as the fact that even in countries where early spay is done, it isn't done around the country, as i keep saying, there are vets here that do neuter early, and if vets used CP's guidelines, it is getting earlier than the 6 months, which I think is the best we can do, you can't suddenly expect the whole country to do the same thing, but things are gradually changing for the better and some people (and that includes rescue people and vets), simply dont like the thought of neutering babies, and we do have to respect that view. Early neutering has been around for about 20 years in the US, and I know the feral rescue near me have been doing it for about 15 years now. But, there are other things done in the US that we simply dont want to be done over here.

[sunama]

Well, if you go back a decade, I doubt that neutering was being done (by the RSPCA), at such a young age. Clearly, over the years, they have discovered that perhaps, early neutering offers more advantages than disadvantages. This is showing that some strategies are being adopted, while the older "antiquated" techniques are being ditched.

The strategy of early neutering will almost certainly have been adopted by looking at data/results from other countries who are happy to neuter at an earlier age.

Oh and yes, there are techniques/strategies that are "antiquated" and still being used in the UK, in many areas of life. As older generations die off and newer/younger ones take over, things generally improve for the better. This is a fact (I can give many examples, in particular, economics and medicine). I know some people like to think that the old ways are/were always the best, but most of the time I dont believe this is the case. Like I said earlier, it is important to move with the times - the RSPCA seem to have done this, at least with regards to feline neutering.

[Kittybabe (Ruth)]

Since my quote doesn't include all I said, I will ask again, maybe in a different vein. Which parts  of the world are you suggesting (I see in the thread that the practices you refer to are mostly US based) have better practices that we should follow? You seem to imply that the UK is antiquated in its practices (and I am sticking to the topic of neutering/spaying when I ask this)?

[sunama]

And why should one country not come up with its own guidelines instead of following along with the "world" when it comes to any animal's welfare?

If other parts of the world are using techniques that are working, then why shouldnt another country, such as the UK adopt these techniques. To be set in your own ways is not the way to improve. This goes for not only cat neutering, but everything in life.

Personally, I always look to learn new techniques/ways of doing things from people as that increases my knowledge base. If I find that their technique is better at doing something, then I will adopt it. But to simply blindly ignore that technique being practised elsewhere will leave you personally, or us as a society, left behind. For example, where UK was once considered a superpower, we have allowed other countries to overtake us. Being stuck in the old ways is generally the reason why balance of power shifts from one country to another. But I'm getting off-topic now, so I shall stop.

[sunama]

I know they have to get experience somwhere, but I would prefer that to be under the guidance of someone who has done it before, as they are a lot smaller.

I hear what you are saying, but what happens if there are no vets in your area who have ever neutered at 3 months, say?

Also, do the RSPCA vets neuter cats, if you brought your cat in, say, or do they only deal with cats that are brought in for rehoming?

What curious things to say, Sunama.  Where are you from, may I ask?

London, UK.

The vets are very experienced.

Sometimes, the most experienced people at a particular job are not necessarily the best people to get work done by. They are set in their ways and a lot of the time they tend not to adopt more advanced opinions/techniques.

In the UK, it would appear that vets are beginning to adopt the new approach of neutering at an earlier age. A decade ago were cats being neutered as early as 8 weeks - probably not?

Could it be that vet schools are now training the newer vets to adopt new ideas (being used in the USA, for example), such as neutering cats at a younger age?

[Kittybabe (Ruth)]

Personally I think the UK should follow guidelines used around the rest of the World, rather than come up with its own. And remember, this is just cats we are talking about - I'm sure the UK have different theories (to the rest of the World), when considering other animals, too.

I guess I'll be the second person to question the why of this comment.   What exactly do you classify as the rest of the world, Sunama? Whilst the UK might be different to some countries it's practices when it comes to neutering/spaying (and I don't believe that every single vet some of those countries neuters very early, I know of two at the very least in the state of Connecticut in the US, in one city... so therefore there must be more in that whole country who do the same), it does not make it wrong, it does in fact just make it different.  And why should one country not come up with its own guidelines instead of following along with the "world" when it comes to any animal's welfare?

[Susanne (urbantigers)]

The vets are very experienced. I'll pop in this week and see whether I can talk them round.

Good idea.  If they are good vets, they should be happy to discuss it with you and at least explain their reasoning for wanting to wait a further month.  I think a lot of it is just down to vets doing it as it has always been done and just picking 6 months as an appropriate age because that's what they have been taught and it's as good a number as any! 

[JackSpratt]

The vets are very experienced. I'll pop in this week and see whether I can talk them round.

[Christine (Blip)]

Do they perhaps believe that the air in the UK is slightly different which results in cats growing slower or do they perhaps believe that Biology functions differently in the UK, compared to that of the rest of the World?

Personally I think the UK should follow guidelines used around the rest of the World, rather than come up with its own. And remember, this is just cats we are talking about - I'm sure the UK have different theories (to the rest of the World), when considering other animals, too.

What curious things to say, Sunama.  Where are you from, may I ask?

[Desley (booktigger)]

I know they have to get experience somwhere, but I would prefer that to be under the guidance of someone who has done it before, as they are a lot smaller. There are vets in the UK who will do it, 3 of the rescues near me neuter everything at 8 weeks old, and I just wish more people would do it.
While Cats Protection are recommending an older age than some, it is also younger than mosts vets currently do and suggest (6 months seem to be the norm for generations now), so they may just be doing it gradually. That said, I dont know many CP branches that neuter early, it tends to be the RSPCA that do (one of the few good things about them). As for using guidelines around the world, some countries are later than us, at 6-12 months depending on country, and also, not everything done in other countries are things we want to do - such as declawing.

[sunama]

... I would be dubious about asking a vet with no experience to do a 2-3 month old

Well, the vet has to get experience at some point, regardless of the age of the animal. You might not like him/her to get the experience on your own cat - fair enough - but the way I see it, is if you have experience of neutering a 6 month old, then neutering a 3 months isnt going to be too different. The only difference is that the operation will be a bit more fiddlier. The vet has to learn at some stage and cant keep chickening out to avoid it.

...but CP's guidelines are 4months old at the moment, ...

Around the world they do it at a younger age, yet Cat Protection suggest a later age - I find this strage. Do they perhaps believe that the air in the UK is slightly different which results in cats growing slower or do they perhaps believe that Biology functions differently in the UK, compared to that of the rest of the World?

Personally I think the UK should follow guidelines used around the rest of the World, rather than come up with its own. And remember, this is just cats we are talking about - I'm sure the UK have different theories (to the rest of the World), when considering other animals, too.

[Desley (booktigger)]

No, 5 months isn't unreasonable, I would be dubious about asking a vet with no experience to do a 2-3 month old (although i have seen a 10wo male kitten two days after neutering, apart from the obvious scar, you couldnt tell, he was playing etc), but CP's guidelines are 4months old at the moment, my vet will do them that young, and the rescues vet 5 months - Shadow was effectively the size of a 5 month old when she was done, and was one week off coming into heat, despite being done just after Christmas. She did get a rare small lump, but I dont think that was her age, just one of those things, and I do like to have these things to exercise the vets's brain!! (the next neuter wasn't straightforward either!)

[Susanne (urbantigers)]

So people don't think I'm unreasonable asking the vet to consider spaying at 5 months?

Not at all.  5 months is not what I would call paediatric neutering so it's not like you are asking for it to be done at a really young age.  I would advise having a one to one chat with the vet and at least ask him/her to take a look at Astryd and make a decision based on her individual size and development.  At least then he can explain why he'd prefer to wait and you can explain why you'd like her to be done at 5 months.

Both of my boys were neutered at 5 months.  With Jaffa, I had to take him and Magpie to the surgery for the nurse to assess them and see if they were ready, and with Mosi I just told them I wanted him done then.  The actual vet who did it (from overseas) did actually ask me, on the phone when I rang to check what time I could drop him off, whether I wouldnt' rather wait until he was older, and even suggested 7-8 months.  I just said no I didn't want to wait and wanted him done then.  She was ok about doing it.

[JackSpratt]

Blimey, how did this thread turn into a massive debate! So people don't think I'm unreasonable asking the vet to consider spaying at 5 months?

[Tinamary]

I think i did say "in my opinion" and i am going to stick by it.  Lol

[sunama]

I cannot answer that because i did not get Cat C back until he was 3. 

In that case, you cannot use your 3 cats as a comparison. My suspicion is that either Cat C was:

the largest cat in the litter (from birth) and/or
the most dominant, so would compete and win for a limited amount of food and/or
was fed a different diet to what you fed his brothers, leading to him growing larger.

What wouldve been ideal is if all 3 cats were brought up in your home, fed on the same diet, with the same genes, with the only difference being the age at which he was neutered.

[sunama]

I've tried persuading the person I spoke to a couple of times but it was a no go. Maybe I'll walk up to the vets and ask directly to see a vet while on the premises.

If you do, then stipulate that in the USA, it is quite normal for all pedigree cats to leave the cattery and to their new homes, fully neutered at 3 months.

Of course, you cant put a gun to the vet's head, as he will have to be comfortable working on a small animal. The newer breed of vets should be more willing as they wont be so set in their ways. Also, once the vet has operated on a small/young animal with no problems, he is more likely to do so in the future, on other animals. As an example, my Reflex was 12 weeks old when he was neutered and the vet who did it, had never worked on such a young cat. However, after the op was done, he apparently said that it was a breeze and there were no issues. He had to be persuaded though.

My Bengal's breeder told the vet flat, that if he didnt do the neutering at 3 months, he would goto another vet that would. Obviously the vet capitulated as my breeder brought A LOT of business his way.

Oh and remember another thing, vets are not the defacto authority on cats. It may actually be that you, as a breeder or cat-owner know more about your own animal than he does. So sometimes he will tell you what your cat should be eating, when he should be neutered and whether or not he is under/over weight, but you may actually be wiser on these issues.

I say, trust your gut instinct.

[JackSpratt]

I've tried persuading the person I spoke to a couple of times but it was a no go. Maybe I'll walk up to the vets and ask directly to see a vet while on the premises.

[Desley (booktigger)]

Studies show that there isn't much difference in cats neutered early, I will have to dig the study out (it is on here somewhere) as I think it showed the group neutered early had less issues in certain departments. I would advise getting females neutered earlier, as if they are done before their first season, their chances of developing mammary cancer later in life is 200 times less. Plus of course they can't accidentally get out, it is sad to see 8 and 10 month olds with kittens. Our first pregnant cat this year came to us in January, and the other year we had 10 kittens over Christmas (we have 3 at the moment).

[JackSpratt]

It's the same vet I took Astryd for a VN check to, but I could say I made a mistake with the age due to her being from a free ad. I'd rather not lie though.

Teresa, I can understand that concern she is still a little scatty. Rest assured we aren't going to let her out on purpose yet.

[Tinamary]

cats are photo-estrus so they only come into season usually when the nights get lighter in the spring.  This means that a kitten born in summer will not ususally come into season until around March the next year.

Sadly not, theres pregnant strays all year round, yes theres times of year there are more but theres never not any 


Yes there are I know that but not as many in general around winter time.

From what I hear, removal of the testes does not effect the size of the cats' bones. If this is the case, then their size wouldnt have been effected, unless they were competing for a limited amount of food and the most aggressive cat won.

Are you saying that i give my cats limited amount of food.  You should see my food bill.  Pampered or what. Lol


For clarity, lets call your cats

Cat A - neutered at 7-8 months old.
Cat B - neutered at 7-8 months old.
Cat C - neutered at 12 months old.

The aggression is going to be less without testosterone - so this would indeed explain why Cat C is more territorial.

At 7-8 months, which of the 3 cats was the largest?
Also, at 7-8 months old, which was the most dominant cat?

I cannot answer that because i did not get Cat C back until he was 3.  He is the most laid back cat ive known and does not have an aggressive bone in his body.   He is just bigger than the others.

[blackcat]

BC, your not doing shadows street cred any good 

Shadow doesn't need street cred, there are far too many staffies around here for him to walk the walk. His trademark is winning hearts, and collecting adoring fans 

[Millys Mum]

Just the 6 sunama, 3 are from the group done at 17 weeks. They were raving loonies and when george went to the bridge from FIP my family i decided to keep them as permanent kitties.

The boys were getting interested before then so they must have x amount of testerone floating around at that age 

BC, your not doing shadows street cred any good 

[Teresa Pawcats]

I prefer to neuter at 6 months of age but every case is different and requires individual consideration. My biggest worry should this kitten escape would be whether she is old and wise enough to cope with traffic etc.
The one thing I would never recommend is lying to your vet.

[blackcat]

I'm pretty sure that neutering does not affect behaviour on the basis of age at which it was carried out. Bob, my 19 year old, neutered at a very early age, would always be the cat in the lead when strays entered the yard, closely followed by Sofie, neutered 9 months and finally Ralph, neutered 6 months, but by far the most 'masculine' of the crew. Shadow the dog, neutered at 3 months, was at the rear, but he is possibly the most submissive animal I have ever met  I seriously doubt this has anything to do with his age at neutering, as he still had his stitches in when I adopted him, and I chose him because he was alone, in the middle of the pen, apologising for his existence ...

[sunama]

I had 5 done at 17 weeks,

Crikey.
How many cats do you have in total?

[sunama]

From what I hear, removal of the testes does not effect the size of the cats' bones. If this is the case, then their size wouldnt have been effected, unless they were competing for a limited amount of food and the most aggressive cat won.

For clarity, lets call your cats

Cat A - neutered at 7-8 months old.
Cat B - neutered at 7-8 months old.
Cat C - neutered at 12 months old.

The aggression is going to be less without testosterone - so this would indeed explain why Cat C is more territorial.

At 7-8 months, which of the 3 cats was the largest?
Also, at 7-8 months old, which was the most dominant cat?

[Millys Mum]

But Milly, wont they have the cat's age already on record? Usually when you sign up to vets, they get the animal's full details.

You use a different vet, your not very good at being deceitful! As astryd was going to be a temporary kitty she may not be on record for vaccinations yet.

cats are photo-estrus so they only come into season usually when the nights get lighter in the spring.  This means that a kitten born in summer will not ususally come into season until around March the next year.

Sadly not, theres pregnant strays all year round, yes theres times of year there are more but theres never not any 

I had 5 done at 17 weeks, they are all different individuals with varying temperaments because thats what they are, individuals. Their neutering didnt play a role in this as they were all done at the same time. Some are just braver than others, Taz would be a wimp with or without his balls 

Theres nothing sadder than a kitten having kittens. Many suffering badly from the pregnacy and birth, people are not responsible enough to ensure they dont get pregnant and even those that mean well can suffer accidents. The kitty in question is trying to door dash, the smart thing to do is to make sure if she did get out she wasnt chased and got by the local tom.

[Susanne (urbantigers)]

I have three brothers (Cats that is) and two were done at around 7-8 months and one at 12, the one at 12 months is much bigger and able to handle himself in the big word wearas the smaller ones seem to spend their lives hiding under the bench and dithering when a tomcat comes into the garden. 

With respect, I don't imagine that has anything to do with the age at which they were neutered.  Related cats can and do have very different personalities (and can have different fathers).  My first 2 kittens were brothers but were like chalk and cheese personality wise.

It's testosterone that causes the desire to mate, fight and spray.  And neutering is about removing the supply source.  So no need to wait until they  are testosterone charged before neutering.  And with females there are health benefits to neutering before the first season.

[Tinamary]

I have three brothers (Cats that is) and two were done at around 7-8 months and one at 12, the one at 12 months is much bigger and able to handle himself in the big word wearas the smaller ones seem to spend their lives hiding under the bench and dithering when a tomcat comes into the garden.  It does not seem to affect thier health as they are all healty.
Its only my opinion and not for everyone but personally i think it gives them a good start.