Magic - 12yr old cat, Kidney failure, FIV, Calici

[clarenmax]

Couldn't agree more 

[Millys Mum]

So pleased to read your update, he sounded so poorly before! Keep up the good stuff magic 

[Desley (booktigger)]

Am glad there has been an improvement despite no renal food, he is obviously drinking enough to flush his kidneys out.

[a11ycat]

Sorry it's been so long... but thought I would give a bit of an update.
We were able to get Magic eating regularly in the spare bedroom, so last week we brought Magic down into the kitchen to join Rusty.
They're getting on fine, they're not best friends yet, but there's been no unfriendly behaviour from either of them. Neither of them see the other as a threat, and so hopefully with time they will enjoy each other's company.
Magic has been continuing to eat regularly, and he's not been on any renal food, and he's drinking from his cat fountain. So I decided that he'd stabilised enough to go to the vets for another blood test. He wasn't best impressed with that idea, but we got the blood tests and the results have come back very good.
I didn't get a chance to speak to the vet properly about the results and I'm not sure what exactly they measured, but when he was ill and on the drip that weekend he had a value of 49.
He now has a value of 16 and apparently a normal cat is 10, so we're all very relieved that there's been a big improvement.

[Mark]

My VetUK delivery came today. Clapton was after food tonight so I put some Purina renal biscuits in a bowl. I was almost certain he would ignore it but thought I would give it to Alice if he didn't want it....... - he pounced on it and had a good amount  - that is the most renal food he has eaten in a long time 

I also gave Alice and Kylie some as they both had fish tonight so thought it will balance out the phosphorus a bit - they both ate it 

[Mark]

Senior food is always under 1% so for renal, I would say under 0.5% is the target. On xmas day, Willow jumped up on the table and clawed some turkey off my plate. I asked the vet if it could have made her crash and he said it is possible that it caused a spike which sent her downhill. To be that bad she was obviously in a serious way but it shows how important low phosphorus is in a renal diet. The vet said the phosphates build up and this is what makes them feel sick.

Here is the Purina N/F info. http://www.purinaveterinarydiets.com/FelineProductDetail.aspx?prod=235
It is £11.09 for 1.5kg from VetUK - it was under £9 last year 

So now it isn't much cheaper than Hills or RC - although they both come in 5kg bags (which works out cheaper), which Purina doesn't - although with one cat on it, I think a 5kg bag would probably go stale?

I suppose the important thing is which one they will eat.

[Desley (booktigger)]

IT might be 130% difference Mark, but it is still under 1%, which is what I thought was the recommended level? Will pm you now

[Mark]

I managed to get him to eat a Felix pouch and a Hills pouch yesterday, so we're able to start getting him off chicken etc.
I'm just wondering what is considered high/low phosphorous levels?

As a rule of thumb, for dry food, 0.3% for renal, 0.7% for senior and 1.2% for regular adult - there are a few exceptions, such as Applaws (also sold in Sainsbury's under the name of Encore) which is horrendously high - something like 2.5% - so a definite no-no for CRF cats - I wouldn't feed it to seniors either

The numbers are different for wet food but I forget what the formula is to convert the numbers to Dry-weight matter - you can do it based on the fact that most wet food is 80% water - senior wet food tends to have about 30% less phosphorus than adult

There is a list here http://www.felinecrf.org/tinned_food.htm that shows various wet foods. Whiskas isn't on there but Felix senior is. I think the figures they give must have been converted to Dry Matter numbers.

[Mark]

Purely Senior Dry doesn't have that much more phosphorus in than RC Renal, it is 0.7 compared to 0.3.

That is 130% difference which is a huge difference, although it is a lot lower than regular food so sometimes we have to compromise if if means they will eat.

You are right about R/D being weight loss - I get confused with all the different codes. g/d is the early renal food although there is very little difference between that and k/d.

I don't have any of the Purina N/F at the moment but it should be delivered tomorrow. Desley & Ally, if either of you want me to send you a little bit to try, PM me and I will post you some.

[a11ycat]

I managed to get him to eat a Felix pouch and a Hills pouch yesterday, so we're able to start getting him off chicken etc.
I'm just wondering what is considered high/low phosphorous levels?

[Desley (booktigger)]

I have had no problems with Zi eating RC Renal, I think RC is more palatable than Hills. The wet food is a different matter though. Purely Senior Dry doesn't have that much more phosphorus in than RC Renal, it is 0.7 compared to 0.3. I dont know what the wet foods are like. I would try and limit his ham, its not just the phosphorus in ham, the fat molecules are larger, so harder for the kidneys to process.

Mark, I thought r/d was the weight reduction food? Do you have any of the Purina renal left Mark?

[Mark]

It is great that he is eating which is the most important thing - but just bear in mind that chicken/fish/ham are very high in phosphorus and have very little nutritional value other than the protein. Ham especially is one to watch out for due to additives; especially phosphates 

As I posted before re phosphorus binders, Ipakitine is really good. There is a newer paste which is supposed to be better but Clapton can smell it and refuses to eat anything with it mixed in. Renal food is good but recent research says it is too low in protein which is really important for cats (the initial research was done with rats  ) - I think over times, the manufacturers will catch up. Senior food has less phosphorus than adult food but still a lot more than renal does - so binders are a good bet. I add a slosh of water and a scoop of ipakitine to each pouch. Mix it up in the pouch and then dish up 

Clapton won't eat renal dry but he will eat senior dry once in a while - again it is reduced phosphorus but not as low as it could be but more palatable than renal it seems. If you want to try renal dry, Hill's k/d smells the meatiest. They also do one called r/d which is supposed to be for early renal failure - slightly higher phos than k/d but still good. I just buy Hill's senior light which goes down well - I guess it is a case of doing the best you can but at the same time, giving them food they will eat & enjoy. I gave up buying renal wet - at £10 a box, most of it went in the bin. Your vet should be able to give you samples of either Royal Canin or Hill's renal.

Purina also make renal wet & dry. I ordered another bag of the dry to try again as he ate it for a while the last time but then refused it. It was no big deal as the other cats loved it. It is only about £8 for a 1.5kg bag from VetUK

That is my experience anyway - I know other people give their cats renal food and they eat it but I think most people have problems with trying to give cats that are "under the weather" to begin with, unpalatable food.

If you are feeding "normal" pouches, Hi-life have the highest phosphorus so I don't buy them.

[Millys Mum]

Its good to hear hes started eating at night, i agree to holding off the bloods, they will be high at this stage regardless due to the starving hes put himself through, best to let him pick himself up before any more stress.
Do you reckon you could hide his tablet in something tasty (when his plates start being cleared overnight)

I'd get him a yeoww cat nip toy and little mice to see if he will come out at night and play, the purrs shop sell the yeoww toys, they are seriously good nip!

Supplements wise you can get binders to put in their food if he doesnt like the renal diets. Im sure Mark can give you the best foods to choose or avoid as some brands are much higher phos than others 

[a11ycat]

That night (after we'd gone to bed) Magic ate some of the chicken and ham and drank some water from a plate.
He ate nothing the following day, but then last night he ate all the soft food that we'd put out for him (chicken, ham, tuna and half a pouch) and drank some of the water from a plate.
I think it is the same scenario today... so we're hoping he will eat tonight again.
I have been giving him the Benazecare in the evenings but I might switch it to the mornings to see if he then eats during the day or not, I don't really mind when he eats as long as he eats, and we need to get him eating enough to keep him going.
We've spoken to the shelter and the vets and have agreed not to do blood tests on him this weekend. It is unlikely that it will change our treatment of him and it's not just the expense, but the stress of taking him back to the vets which I think might be good to avoid if possible.
I've tried to spend some time in the room talking to him each day, but I have to manhandle him to get the tablet in him, so he is growling at me at the moment. Hopefully with time that will decrease.
I've used the money that I would have spent on the blood test to buy him a water fountain, and I'm trying to research his diet and possible supplements, any recommendations/advice gratefully received.

[a11ycat]

There's still no sign that Magic has eaten anything, I've taken the collar off in the hope that will help.
Tonight we've put down a mix of dishes with cooked chicken breast, ham, tuna and a luxury cat food of chicken strips in seafood sauce.
It might be too much variety, but I'm hoping he'll like something... 

[clarenmax]

Aw I hope he's feeling a bit better soon, and that he lets his poor nosey heal 

[Janeyk]

  Bless his little heart, he is a beauty.

I do hope that the meds help him feel much better 

[Tiggy's Mum]

Poor Magic, his little nose looks so sore

Really hope that the meds can stabilise him and he can enjoy his new home that he waited so long for 

[Mark]

I'm sure he will settle down and be a lot happier in time. Benazecare is a great drug and really does help 

His poor little nose looks sore.

[a11ycat]

I didn't hear anything from the vets yesterday, so I rang up and then went in this morning to collect him.
He had been eating a couple of pouches a day, and we'd decided to put the blood test off until the weekend because with him having been on fluids so recently, they were likely to distort the results anyway.
So here is Magic once we got him home:

I left him alone and went up to check on him at lunchtime...
He was hiding under the blankets on the bed...

He'd obviously opened up the nose again with trying to hide (stitches came out on Saturday).
So had to take him back to the vets. He was hissing and growling and clinging on to anything not to go back in the carrier to the vets. Though I was relieved he made no attempt to claw or bite me. 
They've superglued it, though we'll have to see if that will work else he'll have to have an anaesthetic to be stitched up again.
So he's back home and wearing the collar.

Much to his disgust.
He did eat this morning at the vets, but no sign so far of him eating here. I've even got some of the special food he was on at the vets to try this evening... but I am giving him the same as what he was having at the shelter...
He's now on 1/2 a tablet of Benazecare a day.

[Millys Mum]

Sometimes timid ones like a safe bolt hole like a crate so it wouldnt hurt to try. Other than that keep him to one room with his food/water near to where he hides, then you will know if anything goes it was him.
Have you approached the rescue you got him from? Surely they should have noticed his symptoms 

I hope he comes home and has some quality time with you, hes lucky to have found you 

[Mark]

Hi Ally,

I'm not sure if the dog cage will be better but I suppose there is no harm in trying. Has the vet given you Fortekor or Benazecare? (both the same drug) - one of mine has been on one or the other for 4 1/2 years now and I am convinced it is what has kept him going. I used to give him Fortekor but now he has 1/2 a benazecare a day hidden in a treat. As far as drinking goes, a cat with kidney disease will normally drink as much as they need to - it is only when they are in a bad way that that they are so nauseous they won't drink - so basically I think he will drink as much as he needs and if he won't drink, a vet trip is needed. I don't monitor Claptons drinking as I feel I don't need to. I mix in a slosh of water with his wet food to help him. Has the vet prescribed prescription food or phosphorus binders? - keeping their phosophorus levels down is really important as the build-up that CRF cats get makes them feel rough and it is a downward slope. CLapton refuses to eat renal food so I buy Ipakitine from VetUK. It is a powder that you put one measure in each meal and mix it in. It chemically reduces the amount of phosphorus that their body absorbs. It is only about £15 and you get 150 measures in a 150g pot.

[a11ycat]

Hi,
As you may have seen on my newbie thread Magic has been having a really tough time.
I'm hoping that I can bring Magic home tomorrow, but I'm concerned about him going down hill again.
Obviously if the kidney failure is really severe, then he'll go down hill no matter what I do, but I want to give him the best chances I can.
He is a very scared cat, I presume he was found as a stray, he then lived in an isolation cage for 6 months until I adopted him, which I think he got used to and was ok with being handled/petted.
I adopted him a week ago, and he spent most of that week hiding under the spare bed which meant that I couldn't really monitor him but I did know that he wasn't eating, and I couldn't really tell if he was drinking or not. Sadly I thought it was just all the stress of being rehomed, and didn't realise it was so serious until I took him to the vets on saturday.
I don't think we can afford to let that happen again. We've blocked off the access to under the bed, so he's not going to be able to hide under it.
There is a covered over cat bed and the scratching post has a box at the bottom he could go into if he wanted...
I'm wondering if I should go to the extreme case of putting him in a dog crate with the cat bed, a litter tray and food/water so I can monitor him a lot easier?
I don't want to stress him out, but in some ways all he has been used to for the last 6 months is being confined in a small area... so maybe it will help him adjust?
Does anyone have any easy ways of monitoring how much he is drinking?
Please if anyone can advise me, I'd really appreciate it.