Breeding- agree or disagree?

[Susanne (urbantigers)]

Early spay and neuter would go some way to addressing the problem.  If kittens were already neutered before they went to new homes, there would not be the opportunity for accidental pregnancies or for new owners to fail to get their cats done before they went into heat and ended up pregnant.

[Desley (booktigger)]

IT is one of those things I read, and have no idea where, it just stuck in my mind - although looking at your figures, it might be a lot higher now, or I could have been thinking of the rescue population. I am off work this week though, so will try and look it up again. I was with friends on Fri, and the subject of rescue came up, as he had heard some stats on dog rescue (that shocked me to be honest), and we both decided that the only way anything would happen, would be through education. I personally think the charities that can afford to put adverts on the TV should focus them on neutering rather than cruelty, as if there were less animals, there would be less cruelty, as they would be in loving homes.

[Beanie]

Des made the comment early on in this thread (ist page)

pedigrees only account for about 2% of the population

I am not sure where that comes from unless it is an educated guess. I would interested to know Des as it is a subject close to my heart, as nobody in this country seems to be having a grown up debate about unwanted animal birth and what to do.

Lets us take that 2% as a starter. The GCCF had 31,133 cats registered by members in 2006. I have no knowledge about TICA and Felis Britannica don't publish the figures and seem to regard it as a closed secret. Ignoring those two, ignoring unregistered breeders and the outright irresponsible owners and assuming that is an annual pedigree figure, that would mean circa  1,556,650 new cat births oper annum.

It is why this debate is necessary as the strain on rescues is simply collosal and often intolerable. It is why there is rarely a spare pen abvailable for more than a few minutes. It is also why they need every cat lover's financial support.

There is no one simple solution. It is not a fault of any one area of the cat world but it is a collective fault. Existing and prospective owners need to be educated along with the younger generations. It is everybody's problem from the individual cat owner who refuses to look at the question and the suffering it brings to the irresponsible registered breeders and backstreet breeders right through to the large national charities paid officials and charity trustees who simply do too little and should combine therir resources on this subject and spread the cost in the process.

It is why there should be a proper debate which Cats Protection (as the premier cat charity) should host along with other national charities, independent rescues, veterinary representation and breeders associations. If a law has to be passed then so be it. I am not a lover of Self regulation, as it is totally ignored by many which does untold harm. All these organisations have a moral obligation to discuss this question and the room where it is debated should have a sign above the door which simply says Check your ego in at the door and collect again on the way out. Do I think this debate will happen? No. Meanwhile the only losers are many within the cat population.

And before anyone who doesn't know me asks the inevitable - No, I am totally against a destruction policy.

[Desley (booktigger)]

CC, peds without papers aren't copycats, they are moggies. I was asked by the receptionist at my vet if I knew anyone who wanted an only Bengal (multi-cat household issues), and I asked if htey had spoken to the breeder, and he looked as though that had never ever entered his mind = and he has rescue Siamese.

[Ela]

Too many people in it for the money, not caring who they sell too as long as its the right price and dont offer any kind of return policy,

How right you are,  very often I  am asked to taken in breed cats some very young. I always ask if the caller has contacted the breeder to see if they can take the kitten/cat back or make a suggestion who can. I have never had any other reply but 'they don't want to know'.

[Millys Mum]

In the current climate im anti breeding, the amount of pedigrees being bred and sold to those with no commitment to the life of a cat are flooding breed specific rescues. A cap on breeding peds is needed IMO.

Too many people in it for the money, not caring who they sell too as long as its the right price and dont offer any kind of return policy, not that they should need it very often if they only sold to appropriate people

I cant ever imagine a near 100% neuter figure being reached, theres nobody to police it for starters. The world doesnt care what happens to animals, they are too busy messing around with mother natures DNA 

[blackcat]

and rather better placed - they are actually resting in an eyesocket!!

[Den]

Ohhhhhhhhhhh those eyes are stunning 

[Susanne (urbantigers)]

The breed standard calls for ears to be set wide apart - as the face has got narrower, the only way that can be achieved is to stick them on the side of the head!  Not a good look, imo.

I've posted this pic before, but this is what I consider ideal for siamese.  It's somewhere between the old style and the modern.

[JackSpratt]

Yep, the top ones are the type I remember - much nicer. Sorry, CC was just curious.

[blackcat]

the standard has remained the same, it is just that breeding to that standard has accentuated certain physical characteristics as desirable and as the change occurs over many generations, people don't really seem to notice until it is affecting the animal's well-being. LIke that persian Ratie (?) owned, who was unable to breathe without being surgically altered. The flat face of a person leads to all sorts of physical discomfort also and makes them a high-maintenance cat unable to effectively groom itself or breathe.  Breeds are lovely, but showing and lack of care in setting the breed characteristics, means that at times the animals become the victims of their own popularity.

[Den]

Looks like someone needs to change the breed standard back 

[blackcat]

the wedge shape and wide-set ears is a breed standard, as you can see, this is what breeding to meet the standard does to any pedigreed breed over time. FOrtunately you can still get siamese who look like the top pic, they just don't go well in shows ......

[Den]

  Doesn't even look like the same breed.

[blackcat]

this is what they used to look like, back when I bred them

and this is how they look now - as you can see the eye is right over on the side of the face and doesn't really look like it fits is eye socket comfortably, and the nose is very narrow. I have seen some where the skin around the eye is bare of fur, so they look like they have something nasty wrong with them

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[Den]

What do siamese cats look like now?

I'd like to see too. I don't know what they did like/what they look like now.

[JackSpratt]

What do siamese cats look like now? I love traditional siamese - a great aunt of mine used to keep them. (or breed them, it's hard to tell when you're young and there's a lot of cats!)

[Susanne (urbantigers)]

I think it's very sad that breeders of traditional siamese can't show their cats, even though they fit in with the breed standard, because they haven't a hope in hell of winning anything.

[blackcat]

I'm certainly with you there Den, having been to a cat show a few months back, for the first time in years ........ I was shocked and disappointed to see what has been done to the siamese and orential breeds in the interests of accentuating points. I know that there are breeders out there who do not produce animals like that, but siamese are in danger of going the way of persians in producing animals that will have increasing difficulties with breathing and sight, simply because these very necessary functions have been compromised in the interests of achieing extreme features ....... 

[Den]

and you should be doing it to improve the breed.

Sadly for many pedigreed breeders, 'improving the breed' amounts to accentuating points and characteristics that are prized by the judges, but do not necessarily benefit the cat.

See that to me isn't improving the breed and it annoys me. *going into doggie mode* I don't like they way they are creating low roached backs on GSDs it's ruining the breed .. but there are breeders out there who arent breeding that way. I HATE the way Golden Retrievers are looking at the moment ... but you can still find beautiful working GR's who look how they are supposed to. Plus I DETEST Barbie Collies  and people who breed for sport as it's ruining the breed. This is why I find it so hard to explain my views. I can't say I don't disagree with breeding because that would be a lie ... I do believe in it. I would only buy and support certain people, those that I think are good. Those that go for the breed and not what the judge/current trend might want.

I totally agree with breeders having life long responsibility. Those who will take back the animals they bred no matter how old the animal is.

[Ela]

There goes Ela repeting herself again in more ways than one lol sorry

If a question is asked more than once, or misread then the result is a repeat of the answer or what that particular poster feels is the answer or their thoughts.  

[Susanne (urbantigers)]

it's about the breeder themselves, their motives and their goals. If you are going to breed you should know the lines of the animal inside out (parents, grandparents, great-grandparents etc) and you should be doing it to improve the breed. The parents should be health checked ... not just the kittens.

I agree with that.  Imo, there isn't really a straight forward answer to this, as the definition of "breeder" is so vague and subjective.  I can't even say that I think it's ok to breed pedigree cats.  I think it's ok for responsible breeders to breed pedigree cats because I love some of the breeds and would not like them to become extinct.  I completely understand the pov that sees all cats as just cats, and doesn't distinguish between peds and non peds, and therefore is opposed to all breeding.  But I wouldn't want to see the future of pedigree cats left in the hands of irresponsible or backyard breeders, and that's what would happen if the good guys stopped breeding.  If reputable pedigree breeders stopped breeding, then the only place to get a british shorthair or a Persian or a Bengal etc.... would be from backyard breeders.  The demand wouldn't just disappear.  And god knows what state the breed would be in with the lack of health testing and care which a reputable breeder will carry out (improving the breed means eliminating any health issues as much as anything else).  But of course, there are a lot of bad pedigree breeders, including those who register their cats.  I do wish there was more control over breeding, but it would have to be well policed otherwise breeding of pedigree cats would just be pushed underground.  There are many people who are willing to buy a so called pedigree cat without papers, so I'm sure many would be happy to buy from an unlicensed breeder.

I'll admit that I've no idea how I would want the breeding of non pedigree cats to occur in an ideal world.  Because it's something that is unlikely to happen in the forseeable future (or ever), it's something I've never felt the need to think about too deeply, but it is interesting to hypotherise.   If everybody really did neuter their cats, we would have to come up with a responsible way of breeding moggies.  Would certain people be given a licence?  Would those people allow their cats to roam free to find a mate?  Or would specific individuals be bred in the way that pedigree cats are now?  In which case, selective breeding would be taking place, with moggies being treated as a specific breed.  I'm afraid I don't have an answer to that one.

[blackcat]

and you should be doing it to improve the breed.

Sadly for many pedigreed breeders, 'improving the breed' amounts to accentuating points and characteristics that are prized by the judges, but do not necessarily benefit the cat.

Anyone who chooses to breed should be doing so because they are producing healthy animals that are of good temperament. Pedigreed animals are just as likely to end up on the loose as moggies. Breeding anything, human or animal, is a big responsibility if you are not also willing to take responsibility for the health and well-being of the offspring. Unfortunately, just as people breed indiscriminately at times, so too do people who have animals. When the world is a better place and everyone accepts that they are responsibility for how their actions affect the lives and wellbeing of everyone and everything around them, we won't need to have this discussion. But sadly the world is the place that it is, and there are problems as a result of irresponsible human behaviour. We are the only ones who can make the decisions, and we have a responsibility to ensure our decisions are taken with the world view in mind. Most of us don't.

[Den]

This is a hard one for me as I don't know how cat breeding works. If you have a cat and don't know the parents and want to breed because it's a great cat and you want another one like it then NO!! thats not a good reason for breeding.

I'd say no to breeding moggies ... just going on with dogs I like papers (unless they are ISDS regs or proven working dogs in the case of Border Collies). It's not just about papers though because people still exploit that. Just because your cat may have papers doesn't mean it's a right to breed .. it's about the breeder themselves, their motives and their goals. If you are going to breed you should know the lines of the animal inside out (parents, grandparents, great-grandparents etc) and you should be doing it to improve the breed. The parents should be health checked ... not just the kittens.

So someone who got the kittens all checked out before homing them would be ok regardless of being ped or mog?

Not for me it wouldn't.

[ccmacey]

I think this topic has been discussed before on a previous thread: http://www.purrsinourhearts.co.uk/index.php/topic,11111.0.html

Thanks Sam but I feel this is a different topic all together, That topic is asking wether they should breed, Im asking peoples opinions about breeding. 

[ccmacey]

Moggie is a non ped cat. Ped cats without papers are just copycats.

[Den]

Is a moggie the same as a mongrel or is a moggie a cat without papers? Sorry for the dumb question I really don't know. I've come from the dog world and am still learning.

[ccmacey]

There goes Ela repeting herself again in more ways than one lol sorry 

I do suppose most ped breeders are doing it because they love the breed, but what about the mog breeders, I do think most do it for the money which I dont think is right.

So someone who got the kittens all checked out before homing them would be ok regardless of being ped or mog? But thats in with the price of a ped I would think so the new owner would be paying for that anyway.

So someone in my situation with a love for cats would be ok to breed?

But my love for cats stops me from breeding because I could not asure a safe and happy life for them for the rest of their lives.

So what Im think Im trying to say is if you love cats that much how could you breed not being able to safe guard them forever?

[Sam (Fussy_Furball)]

I think this topic has been discussed before on a previous thread: http://www.purrsinourhearts.co.uk/index.php/topic,11111.0.html

[JackSpratt]

I think I'm reading your posts wrong, Ela.  Anyway, back on topic - CC, I feel that if cats are bred there should be an element of control to the stuation as kitten figures seem to be steadily rising each year and more older cats seem to be getting discarded to make way for them.

[Ela]

But if everyone had their cat spayed or neutered surely then there would be no irresponsible people, hence no kittens

I hear that said most days (well I hear' if everyone had their cats neutered there would be no kittens')and it is one the the comments that does annoy me, and it takes a lot I can tell you.

There are always going to be irresponsible owners and there are always thousands of strays up and down the country. You know yourself  who knew  about a stray tom and although we lent a trap and gave  a free voucher for neutering,  which would also cover flea and worm treatment yet it did not use it as the person concerned kept saying I want to see if I can get it without trapping. The trap was returned after quite a long time still not used. The length of time the trap was out and not used that tom could have fathered hundreds of kittens, and may be still doing so for all I know. So if that idea comes from someone who really cares and has a knowledge of the implications of allowing cats to roam unneutered. you must know that there are thousands of people who do not have your knowledge.

[blackcat]

But if everyone had their cat spayed or neutered surely then there would be no irresponsible people, hence no kittens?

Not every cat has an owner ........

[JackSpratt]

Please don't be led into thinking that if everyone had their cat neutered/spayed they would die out, that is just not going to happen there are far too many irresponsible people for that.

But if everyone had their cat spayed or neutered surely then there would be no irresponsible people, hence no kittens?

I think maybe if you want to breed from ANY cat be it a moggy or a purebreed, you should have to obtain a license. That way the situation would have an element of control about it and there wouldn't be population booms as regularly as there is.

I don't disagree with breeding, but feel it is a litte unneccesary.

[Den]

I'm not against breeding. I'm for responsible pedigree breeding ... I could go on and on and on about the subject for dogs lol but I don't know enough about cats to go into what I feel is responsible.

[Ela]

I personally do not believe in breeding  (what a surprise many of you will say)

Please don't be led into thinking that if everyone had their cat neutered/spayed they would die out, that is just not going to happen there are far too many irresponsible people for that. If there were a few less cats/kittens available would it be such a bad thing? Maybe just maybe they would be more valued.

Each week I am asked to bring in a number a number of pedigree cats, Bengal, Siamese and Persians being the most poplar breeds I am offered. Even pedigrees rescues are usually always full to bursting.

I appreciate however, that many of us have different opinions on this emotive topic.

[Desley (booktigger)]

I dont have any issue with pedigree breeders, as there are breeds that have been around longer than any of us, and it would be a shame to lose them purely cos of irresponsible people allowing their cats to breed causing an overpopulation issue - pedigrees only account for about 2% of the population. I do think there should be stricter guidelines to make sure that anyone who does breed pedigrees are reputable, and there should be a stop on creating new breeds while we have an overpopulation issue. I also think early spay/neuter should be done more to prevent people letting kittens, either moggie or pedigree, breed.

[Beanie]

Moggy breeders (and also unfortunately backstreet ped breeders) have absolutely no obligation to do any of this, so consequently kittens are sold at a much younger age, sometimes barely old enough to be away from mum, tend to be unvaccinated, will not be health-checked and in the case of backstreet ped breeders, the kittens will have no papers and therefore no proof that they are what the breeder says they are.

I think that is a very valid point which is largely true. The vast majority of people who care for moggies will have them neutered. Generally speaking,those people can know as much or more than breeders on a more general basis but not as  much about a specific breed.  However, it is the backstreet breeders who care little and know less about the animals, who are just means of quick cash as far as they are concerned. I would love to be able to wipe them out. (NB: reda that however you like  :naughty:They are a massive part of the problem of too many animals ,many of whom end up unwanted and cared for, if lucky, when they become surplus to requirements.

[Reynard]

Last of all whats the difference between a Pedigree and a Moggie breeder? Surely if they have the same knowledge/ care it's the same difference? 

From a Cat Fancy perspective, all breeders (reputable including for show purposes) must be registered with a governing body e.g. GCCF, TICA or Felis Britannica.

With respect to the GCCF, there is a Code of Ethics for breeders, to which they must adhere - deviation from this will give rise to disciplinary action i.e. fines, bans etc. What this boils down to is:

All kittens must be at least 13 weeks old prior to homing, have their complete kitten course of vaccinations, be wormed, flead and come with all the relevant paperwork.

Moggy breeders (and also unfortunately backstreet ped breeders) have absolutely no obligation to do any of this, so consequently kittens are sold at a much younger age, sometimes barely old enough to be away from mum, tend to be unvaccinated, will not be health-checked and in the case of backstreet ped breeders, the kittens will have no papers and therefore no proof that they are what the breeder says they are.

[ccmacey]

Would like to get some thoughts on this subject, why you agree or why you disagree. I'm talking about cats inparticular.

I dont really know my own status on this because if all the cats in the world were neutered (long shot I know) surely there would be cats no more?

I have just read a comment in another post saying "some breeders are ok as they keep particular breeds going, which must not die out"

But what about the pure moggies I'm sure everyone loves them and you dont get a reputable breeder breeding these types of cats, do you?

What do you think a reputable breeder must have/ know about cats to be able to breed them safely?

Last of all whats the difference between a Pedigree and a Moggie breeder? Surely if they have the same knowledge/ care it's the same difference?

Please keep things just to the point on this one thanks.