Author Topic: Cruel Declawing - Again  (Read 9685 times)

Offline Mark

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Re: Cruel Declawing - Again
« Reply #46 on: October 15, 2007, 10:36:18 AM »
Kylie is a big scratcher but I have found that if you repeatedly gently lift their paws away from things you don't want scratched, eventually they will stop - as long as there are alternative scratching areas. We have 2 sofas in our basement living room. An Ikea karlanda and an expensive multiyork in red velvet. After a bit of training, they never bother trying to scratch the red one but we make a point of letting them scratch the Ikea one freely. When it looks really tatty, we just order a new cover  :evillaugh:
« Last Edit: October 15, 2007, 11:18:09 AM by Mark »
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Offline Beanie

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Re: Cruel Declawing - Again
« Reply #45 on: October 15, 2007, 09:53:58 AM »
Sadly Queen Penguin it happens. A lady who apperaed interested offering a home to a cat went to a local rescue. She was, shall we say dispatched from the premises by the proprietor, when it became clear on meeting that she wanted a certain colour type of ginger cat to blend in with her durniture and new carpet colour. The cat was of secondary importance and it does not take a quantum leap of the imagination to visualise that the cat would have a limited shelf life in her mind God forbid an accident on the carpet or scratch mark on the furniture. The pompous woman did stop short of saying Have him wrapped and sent round

It these type of real life situations, which occur which make make my blood boil and make me generally cautious when going on an open web site, as not everybody is automatically all they seem.
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Offline Queen-Penguin

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Re: Cruel Declawing - Again
« Reply #44 on: October 14, 2007, 23:41:08 PM »
Why would anyone do that to a cat to protect their furniture? It makes me sick that some people are so nasty! If you have a cat, be prepared to have at least some of your furniture and fitting scratched to pieces!!
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Offline Beanie

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Re: Cruel Declawing - Again
« Reply #43 on: October 14, 2007, 23:01:59 PM »
Hi Lang,

Thanks for your reply. I believe we should be quick to codemn wherever it is - in our own backyard or wherever. I couldn't agree more with your examples. Cruelty and ignorance have no national boundaries. In some ways it may be easier if it did.

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Offline Lang

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Re: Cruel Declawing - Again
« Reply #42 on: October 14, 2007, 20:28:23 PM »
I think the reason I posted as I did was that when my American friend expressed astonishment that we didn't allow declawing, my first thought was "Bloody Americans!"  :innocent: But then I was brought up short, thinking about the cruelties we accept in Europe (bullfighting, for example) and in this country (breeding and using greyhounds for entertainment without thought for their subsequent welfare).  It occurred to me that perhaps I should not be so quick to condemn, as we tend to be blind to the things which occur on our own doorstep.

Offline Beanie

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Re: Cruel Declawing - Again
« Reply #41 on: October 14, 2007, 19:32:07 PM »
Hi Lang,

I hear what you are saying but I don't think anyone actually feels Superiortalking about barbaric practice. Nor should we. Your point about glasshouses is not without foundation. However, we have a duty to listen as much as we have to educate. To look at our problems and then stay silent on other issues is folly in my book, although I don't think that is what you are really saying.

I think that most of the problem is that people's behaviour is excused with the overuse of the word culture. which should not be a safe harbour from which to retreat and do and say nothing. Cultiuremeans civilisation which is a moving feast and to cultivateas a person or as a society is to improve. You and I are on the same page when decrying declawing as barbaric and the British public are not alone in this view.

I am proud of my English culture but that does not mean that I am proud of all of it. Seeing pictures of Kate Middleton in today's papers being taught how to kill a beautiful stag with a telescopic rifle churns my stomach to the core and the Royals - and I am not anti Royalist - would doubtless defend this as part of our
culture :censored: :censored: :censored: :censored: :censored: :censored:
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Offline Lang

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Re: Cruel Declawing - Again
« Reply #40 on: October 14, 2007, 13:18:58 PM »
I have been speaking to an American friend, who indeed had her first cat declawed, and it appears that our attitudes to animals are driven by our culture.  She considered the practice as normal and perfectly acceptable, although I and some other English friends have managed to change her mind slightly.   In America, apart from the declawing (and debarking) issue, there is the fact that unhomed cats are regularly put down in animal shelters. 

This seems appalling, but when it's a cultural issue it's very difficult to deal with, and each country has its own area of barbarism built into its culture.  As an example, until recently we were happy to hunt foxes with dogs.  And indeed, I am old enough to remember when the practice of foxhunting was actually *endorsed* by the RSPCA!

Yes, we should work to educate where possible, and it is quite right to express our abhorrence about the practice on forums.  But I think we should guard against feeling too superior about the issue, because we are all living in glasshouses.

Offline Desley (booktigger)

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Re: Cruel Declawing - Again
« Reply #39 on: October 14, 2007, 09:57:04 AM »
sadly, a lot of vets offer it without telling the clients the full implications, and that there are alternatives to it, but from using an American forum, it does seem that awareness is being raised - good job I dont live in America, I would prob be in prison from sitting outside vets telling the truth about it!! There is an equivalent to our RCVIS, sadly, this is part of their points regarding declawing, and I suspect while they think this, it wont change (despite teh fact that other countries dont do it):

Scientific data do indicate that cats that have destructive clawing behavior are more likely to be euthanatized, or more readily relinquished, released, or abandoned, thereby contributing to the homeless cat population. Where scratching behavior is an issue as to whether or not a particular cat can remain as an acceptable household pet in a particular home, surgical onychectomy may be considered.

Here is the full article:

http://www.avma.org/issues/policy/animal_welfare/declawing.asp

And here is one on California:

http://www.avma.org/onlnews/javma/oct07/071001a.asp
« Last Edit: October 14, 2007, 09:58:53 AM by Desley (booktigger) »
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Offline Beanie

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Re: Cruel Declawing - Again
« Reply #38 on: October 09, 2007, 22:23:45 PM »
Hi Mark,

I think that is largely true although there are signs of change but far too slow. Ideally the law would need to have federal backing but the reality is that it would need to be passed in each state and there lies a problem. General animal issues are receiving more state attention as the current administration goes about its business with scant regard to nature, the environment or animals. Tomorrow's problem; tomorrow's bill.

The animal lobby is far more powerful now and put questions to Senator John Kerry and George Bush before the last election about animal issues and the potential incumbents' views. This was a first in the USA as it has largely been the province of the powerful self interest groups like the national Rifleman's Association and strong Jewish lobby (no disrespect intended) to name but two. Senator Kerry had the decency to reply and most of his views were deemed reasonable with scope for a better understanding and improvement of other answers. They are still waiting to hear from Bush who chose not to reply or ignored them, which says it all.

I hope that their increased group strength will reopen this debate and get into everyone's face about it. Sadly, if it was still an issue in the UK we may have a similar problem, as it is not politically sexy enough  for many MPs. Thankfully, we don't have to see if that comment is correct or not.
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Offline Mark

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Re: Cruel Declawing - Again
« Reply #37 on: October 09, 2007, 21:03:03 PM »
Hi Pete,

It just baffles me. The problem is, the Americam public is led to believe by vets etc that its just a routine part of having a cat like jabs & worming. It will be an uphill struggle. Surely there must be a well-informed genuine cat-lover in power that could have some kind of influence. I find it as upsetting as the Chinese treatment of cats. The problem is, where to start. I find it so depressing when I see petitions that have 200 sigs. Its a big place and the law would need to be passed from the top. I didn't think my email to the Oprah show would get a reply but thats the kind of support anti-declawing needs for anything to happen. I saw on one site, anti declawers caled "bleeding hearts" and that seems to be the way they are seen.
DO NOT BREED OR BUY WHILE SHELTER ANIMALS DIE

I believe I am not interested to know whether Vivisection produces results that are profitable to the human race or doesn't. To know that the results are profitable to the race would not remove my hostility to it.  Mark Twain

Offline Beanie

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Re: Cruel Declawing - Again
« Reply #36 on: October 09, 2007, 20:03:09 PM »
Hi Mark,

I have taken the liberty of sending you an article by email that I raised with a respected animal welfare group in the USA, as nobody would or could answer points about the legality of declawing.

There is nothing that I hate more in cat welfare than declawing. Barbaric is not strong enough a word. Thankfully, it is illegal in many European countries but, it seems, there is not a strong enough impotus in the USA to stop the butchery by law. I always think of this and shudder when I hear the USA described as a civilised society.

I haven't looked right through this thread but I vaguely recall that Desley, if she is around, has a good knowledge of how this works in the USA. I hope that you find the article useful.

Anything, however great or small to stop this torture and sadistic, satanic mutilation should be done.
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Offline Mark

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Re: Cruel Declawing - Again
« Reply #35 on: October 09, 2007, 12:28:16 PM »
DO NOT BREED OR BUY WHILE SHELTER ANIMALS DIE

I believe I am not interested to know whether Vivisection produces results that are profitable to the human race or doesn't. To know that the results are profitable to the race would not remove my hostility to it.  Mark Twain

Offline clarenmax

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Re: Cruel Declawing - Again
« Reply #34 on: October 09, 2007, 12:05:47 PM »
I saw those as well, but think they were smaller strips?  Could be wrong though.

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Offline Susanne (urbantigers)

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Re: Cruel Declawing - Again
« Reply #33 on: October 09, 2007, 12:05:06 PM »
I think PAH do a cheaper version of sticky paws.  I can't vouch for how well they work, but I have noticed them in the past and they were a lot cheaper than the actual sticky paws.

I have a throw on my sofa but Mosi just burrows beneath it  :scared:

Offline clarenmax

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Re: Cruel Declawing - Again
« Reply #32 on: October 09, 2007, 11:55:24 AM »
Max is an absolute terror for scratching sofas, even with the huuuuuge scratching post (which he uses loads, just has the odd 'moment' shall we say).

Our old sofa took the brunt of the scratching, you can see the wood through the arm where he's gone through the fabric and foam, but do I care .... no not really, it adds a bit of character to our house  :evillaugh:

Sticky Paws do work most of the time on the new sofa though, they are very good.  Got mine on ebay and I think they were a bit cheaper.

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Offline Susanne (urbantigers)

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Re: Cruel Declawing - Again
« Reply #31 on: October 09, 2007, 11:08:36 AM »
The site this was posted on is very anti declaw, both in terms of the official stance and most posters.  Usually people get pounced on if they mention declawing, but in this case the poster actually lost one of her cats post op due to undiagnosed cardiomyopathy (which I didn't notice first read through as I was distracted by the declawing issue) so I guess people feel it's inappropriate to have a go.  It also doesn't go down too well to criticise people who have already had their cats declawed as opposed to those considering it.  Qute a few people have declawed cats that were already declawed when adopted.

I guess I'm lucky in that mine don't scratch a lot, although that's probably because I have loads of scratching posts in every room.  But I do have claw marks on the sofa from where they catch their claws when playing.  That just comes with having cats, imo.  If I thought more of my furniture than my cats I wouldn't have cats.

Offline Corporal Smokey

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Re: Cruel Declawing - Again
« Reply #30 on: October 09, 2007, 11:04:23 AM »
I have the sticky things too. They're very expensive from Lakeland Ltd. but are brilliant. We have a bit of a Supernanny system at our house. They have 2 claps a shouted name and then get put next to their scratching post. I've only ever had to do it a couple of times with Smokey and he's very naughty otherwise! Don't think I've ever needed to with Josh but he was well looked after before I homed him.
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Offline JackSpratt

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Re: Cruel Declawing - Again
« Reply #29 on: October 09, 2007, 11:03:25 AM »
There are a lot of alternatives that can be tried before people resort to this "operation." (Personally, the only reason I'd ever see decalwing as viable is for a medical issue.) People are generally just too lazy and impatient to train their cats.

My cousin goes on a predominantly American cat site and nearly got banned after commenting on someones post. They were considering declawing their cats because their new partner "didn't like them scratching where they shouldn't." She told them they were cruel and inhumane and it was a mutilation of their cats.

Cats are always going to scratch things, and even with training will every now and then do it where they aren't supposed to. It's the price you pay for sharing your home with such an amazing animal! ;)




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Offline Gail Bengal Slave

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Re: Cruel Declawing - Again
« Reply #28 on: October 09, 2007, 10:48:42 AM »
Mine don't claw the furniture, if they have a go at the carpet a sharp ZUBIN or ZEBEDEE makes them stop. They only do it when they are excited. Plus I have scratch posts in the house and garden so they can use them, they also use the fence  :-:
The Americans can be so stupid at times, they make me SO  :censored: angry  >:( >:( >:(

Haven't they heard of the stuff called sticky paws which prevents claw sharpening, as they dont' like the sicky on their paw pads.

Love to all the de-clawed cats- you'll get your revenge on your callous owners.



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Offline clarenmax

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Re: Cruel Declawing - Again
« Reply #27 on: October 09, 2007, 09:54:14 AM »
I agree with your sentiments entirly Amy, as others have said in the past, if you want a pet who is low maintenance and will never cause any upset to your household, get a bloody goldfish.

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Offline Corporal Smokey

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Re: Cruel Declawing - Again
« Reply #26 on: October 09, 2007, 09:49:09 AM »
Oh dear what a terrible shame...I do hope your furniture will be ok. I'm taking mine in to have their legs chopped off next week as they keep running around and making paw-marks on my new laminate  >:(. Sorry but I really hate this mentality. It really is as pathetic as the people that find it oh so easy to give their cats up for rescue. Aaarrggghhh, just buy a cuddly toy if that's what you want!



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Offline Susanne (urbantigers)

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Re: Cruel Declawing - Again
« Reply #25 on: October 09, 2007, 09:01:10 AM »
And this is what they/we are up against.

Quoted from another forum

Quote
I took my three cats, .... to the vet today to have the girls spayed, declawed, and chipped and ... declawed and chipped. ..... I don't really like the idea of declawing my cats -- I was really uncomfortable with doing it, but I cannot control where they claw and they've already destroyed so much of my furniture and I want to buy a house in the next year.

Offline Susanne (urbantigers)

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Re: Cruel Declawing - Again
« Reply #24 on: October 08, 2007, 17:46:39 PM »
It may only be small areas that are coming out against declawing but it's better than nothing.  Lets hope this attitude spreads across the rest of the US.

http://www.littlebigcat.com/index.php?action=nlarchive&show=volume5no6

Offline Gail Bengal Slave

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Re: Cruel Declawing - Again
« Reply #23 on: October 05, 2007, 14:12:39 PM »
Dig a hole in your garden using you bare hands with open wounds.

That's how the cat feels, how sore it is for them, having to dig a hole to toilet in.



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Offline dolcetta46

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Re: Cruel Declawing - Again
« Reply #22 on: October 05, 2007, 14:02:36 PM »
Actually I am from the US and I agree with some previous comments, lots of people who have declawed their cats have done so out of ignorance, they didn't realise the extent of damage they were inflicting upon their beloved.  Some of them were truly horrified and regretted when they learned the truth, and I don't think they would ever do it again if they had another chance.  Like many other things proper education will be the key for new owners.

Offline Susanne (urbantigers)

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Re: Cruel Declawing - Again
« Reply #21 on: October 05, 2007, 13:56:19 PM »
I don't know how people can care more for their furniture than their cats.  Does a piece of furniture greet you when you come home or cuddle up to you when you're ill?  I don't think so.  I agree that a lot of it is the vets who push it as part of a neuter package.  There are lots of Americans opposed to declawing but I think part of the difficult in making it illegal is the fact that different states have different laws so it's hard to get something like declawing banned across the whole country (didn't California ban declawing recently?).  Remember that declawing wasn't actually illegal over here until recently (I think the new animal welfare act would cover it now) - it was just frowned on by the RCVS and not actually practiced - hence most people over here not having a clue that such a procedure exists and so not asking for it.  Is there an American equivilent of the RCVS?  I suppose those would be the people to lobby as if they discourage vets from declawing that would help. 
« Last Edit: October 05, 2007, 13:58:37 PM by Susanne (urbantigers) »

Offline Cheesecat

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Re: Cruel Declawing - Again
« Reply #20 on: October 05, 2007, 13:28:41 PM »
Poor babies  :'( I feel so sorry for the black cat - it looks terrified  :'(

In our old house our lot scratched the wallpaper (lots! it was textured and they looooved it!) and sofas (still do but so what!) - its part of who cats are and what they do! I agree that if they don't want a cat to be able to be its natural self, they should get a stuffed toy - far less effort for these people.

I remember a thread where someone said they heard that people got rid of a cat as it didn't match the furniture.  :censored:

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Offline smudgepickles

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Re: Cruel Declawing - Again
« Reply #19 on: October 05, 2007, 13:15:53 PM »
This is just as barbaric as saying "oh I dont want my child getting into everything lets chop off its fingers at 3 months old"  :censored: :censored: :censored: :censored: :censored: :censored: :censored: someone would soon do something about that..............I certainly would like to chop the fingers off the vets that perform the declawing  >:( >:( >:(  :censored: they are


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Offline dolcetta46

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Re: Cruel Declawing - Again
« Reply #18 on: October 05, 2007, 13:14:30 PM »
No I don't have the guts to look... but I always wonder, if they don't want their cats to be cats, why don't they just get a stuffed toy to cuddle with instead of make a living creature suffer for their own conveniences??  :(
« Last Edit: October 05, 2007, 13:17:26 PM by dolcetta46 »

Offline Gail Bengal Slave

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Re: Cruel Declawing - Again
« Reply #17 on: October 05, 2007, 13:07:21 PM »
I would rahter be scratched that declaw my babes. It is their defence.

How can a declawed cat defend itself?. You may as well sit them in the middle lane of the Mway. It is barbarric and totally cruel. People who do this should have their finger and toe nails ripped out.



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Offline Yvonne

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Re: Cruel Declawing - Again
« Reply #16 on: October 05, 2007, 12:42:54 PM »
Hi guys and girls,

Yes this practice is pretty sickening and I did not even realise that it was legal until I was talking to my fried (Liz) in Florida, at the time I was looking for a Manx.  I mentioned that I thought that there were several breeders in America for the Manx which she confirmed and she also confirmed that declawing was optional at about three months.  I was shocked and astounded, I said that cannot be right it is illegal but she assured me that it was not.  I then looked on websites and yes, indeed, there it was and it has to be said that many Americans do not declaw their cats but some do and it would appear to be the Vets that are pushing it more so than the cat owners.

I think we may need to target American Vets as some cat owners who are possibly not too experienced.  Picture the scene, you leave home, set up with your partner and then you get yourself a kitten, even if you have been brought up with cats you tend to take advice from close friends and your Vet and if the Vet is recommending declawing to save your new three piece suite they are probably thinking it is a minor procedure being carried out something like clipping the toenails where in actual fact we know that the procedure is very different from that.

I have to say that I have not actually found any websites that are for the declaw procedure all of them and the majority are American websites, they are all against the procedure.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onychectomy

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Offline Corporal Smokey

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Re: Cruel Declawing - Again
« Reply #15 on: October 05, 2007, 12:14:20 PM »
It is a hideous and cruel practice indeed  :'(. Sadly, I think there is a lot of ignorance surrounding it in the US. I don't think Americans are any more cruel than we are, I just don't think they realise. A lot probably assume it must be ok if it's allowed.

My OH has American relatives who know people with de-clawed cats. I don't know what their stance is but I remember when I first had Josh and Hope OH's mum (doesn't really know about cats so could be forgiven) said "Why don't you just have them de-clawed, that's what they do in America?" Their family is not cruel in any way and I can't imagine them saying such a thing unless they genuinely don't know.

I'm seeing the Americans this weekend, it may be an interesting debate! And if I can convince just one family to take knowledge back to Chicago with them and stop it from happening to just one innocent angel then I've helped in some way. I believe in small steps so I will do my very best.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2007, 12:15:33 PM by Corporal Smokey »
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True love is rescued. Miss you always Josh and Hope xx

Offline clarenmax

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Re: Cruel Declawing - Again
« Reply #14 on: October 05, 2007, 11:17:29 AM »
I did look at the link, and I'm sickened that anyone can do that to their cat without a medical reason to do so >:(

Its so barbaric, God, how can anyone want to inflict pain like that just to keep their furniture tidy.  It makes me sick.

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Poot, adopted 14th August 2009. I'm sure Maxy sent you to me sweetie xx

Offline Mark

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Re: Cruel Declawing - Again
« Reply #13 on: October 04, 2007, 23:38:09 PM »
You just have to look at their eyes to see the pain - it just breaks my heart  :'(

I got this automated email but don't hold out much hope.

Dear Mark ,

Thank you for your e-mail!  Your  message is important to us.
  Unfortunately, due to the volume of e-mail messages we receive every day, we
 cannot guarantee that you'll receive a personal response.  Feel free to
 check out our Frequently Asked Questions for additional help.
http://www.oprah.com/tows/program/tows_prog_main.jhtml

Thanks again for writing to us!

Sincerely,
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« Last Edit: October 05, 2007, 00:03:40 AM by Mark »
DO NOT BREED OR BUY WHILE SHELTER ANIMALS DIE

I believe I am not interested to know whether Vivisection produces results that are profitable to the human race or doesn't. To know that the results are profitable to the race would not remove my hostility to it.  Mark Twain

Offline smudgepickles

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Re: Cruel Declawing - Again
« Reply #12 on: October 04, 2007, 23:17:27 PM »
To think how worried and upset we animal loving humans get when our fur babes cut their pad and rush them off to the vet........how much pain must those poor little darlings be in.........sorry but it made me cry to think about their pain, for what >:( bloody furniture)

Offline Mark

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Re: Cruel Declawing - Again
« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2007, 23:14:48 PM »
I doubt that anything will come of it but I have emailed The producers of the Oprah Winfrey show. Very level headed, directing them to the American website and saying that Oprah is in a position to educate Americans to do the right thing. They probably get 1000's of crackpot emails every day but I have tried. You never know.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2007, 23:35:37 PM by Mark »
DO NOT BREED OR BUY WHILE SHELTER ANIMALS DIE

I believe I am not interested to know whether Vivisection produces results that are profitable to the human race or doesn't. To know that the results are profitable to the race would not remove my hostility to it.  Mark Twain

Offline JackSpratt

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Re: Cruel Declawing - Again
« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2007, 22:29:34 PM »
I've just scrolled down the site REALLY fast and that's about as much as I can cope with. Poor things - if people value their furniture more than they value allowing their cat to have its natural instincts they shouldn't have a cat. (Don't get me wrong, it irks me when my cats scratch my sofa, but there's no way I'd do that to them.)




Carrie, Jack,Toby and Parsley ~ Love and miss you all always.x

Offline Mark

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Re: Cruel Declawing - Again
« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2007, 22:20:21 PM »
I did find one and posted the address  ;)

I saw  ;)  ;D

I got waylaid - it upset me so much  >:(

Edit to say - I think the page came up because Slovenia does not allow declawing - but the USA does  :Crazy:
« Last Edit: October 04, 2007, 22:53:24 PM by Mark »
DO NOT BREED OR BUY WHILE SHELTER ANIMALS DIE

I believe I am not interested to know whether Vivisection produces results that are profitable to the human race or doesn't. To know that the results are profitable to the race would not remove my hostility to it.  Mark Twain

Offline Mark

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Re: Cruel Declawing - Again
« Reply #8 on: October 04, 2007, 22:19:29 PM »
I must be getting stronger .. I managed to look & I am discusted.. How can they promote declawing ?   :censored: :censored: :censored: :censored:

sorry read the text.. they arnt promoting it but I bet there are sights that do

Seeing photos like that makes me feel sick but I think we need to see them to act on them. The look on the cats faces is heartbreaking - how can people be so selfish & heartless.

There is a section on their website of hatemail from vets etc they have exposed who are threatening legal action etc but they are standing firm. It really needs someone like Oprah to take a lead to stop this practice. I wonder if she is a cat lover? - and how to get a message to her as she is so powerful now anything would have to pass through her minions. Any ideas anyone?
« Last Edit: October 04, 2007, 22:20:45 PM by Mark »
DO NOT BREED OR BUY WHILE SHELTER ANIMALS DIE

I believe I am not interested to know whether Vivisection produces results that are profitable to the human race or doesn't. To know that the results are profitable to the race would not remove my hostility to it.  Mark Twain

Offline Sam (Fussy_Furball)

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Re: Cruel Declawing - Again
« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2007, 22:16:50 PM »
I did find one and posted the address  ;)
In ancient times cats were worshiped as gods; they have not forgotten this.

 


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