Purrs In Our Hearts - Cat Forum UK
Cat Health & Behaviour => Health & Behaviour General => Topic started by: Stuart on August 31, 2007, 01:15:25 AM
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Hi Folks, I just want some like minded ppl to speak to just now. I have two Cat's Hamish 17 and Misty 16.
I got Misty from a lad that I worked with and about a year later, coming home from work on a very wild night, Pouring down with rain and Howling a gale, just about to go into my house when above the wind noise I could hear Meowing, I looked around and could just make out this Black Cat, I took him in, put up ads for found cat but got no replys, eventually one of my neighbours told me of a family that had a cat like him but they had moved to australia, I dont know how long he had been running wild but he was unwell, took him to the vet's. ended up he had Cat flu & sinus infection. the Flu did come back a couple of years ago, but with treatment it cleared up again, apart from that he has had a healthy happy life.
Hamish old has not been his usual self these last few weeks, so took him to the vet's on monday, thyroid and CRF was suggested. When we got back from the vet's, he seem's to have gone from bad to worse, he is now spending most of his time by himself in the spare room, the vet phoned today with the results, blood count not good, and was told to bring him in tommorrow so he can be put on a drip for 24 hours, is this normal ??
Needless to say my heart has been sinking more and more with each passing day, He drinks plenty of water as for the last 10 years, I have kept a tap in the bath running for the both of them, He is still eating"just" got him a single fish from the chippy tonight and he scoffed most of it..
I think Deep down I know the outlook is not good, and he has reached a respectable age.
(http://)
Would Be grateful for any Advice .... Stuart
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:welcome: Stuart to Purrs ;)
Cant really give you any info hun but there will be more people on in the morning who will be able to help with your questions.....until then im wishing :luck: to you and your cats x
(its a good sign that the cat is eating & drinking okay) :hug:
Ps....your kitties are gorgeous
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Hi Stuart, welcome to Purrs :) Hamish and Misty look adoreable :Luv: :Luv: I don't really know much about CRF but if you do a search, I'm sure you'll find some useful information. I will point this thread out to Elaine as well as she is pretty much an expert on the subject and I'm sure will be glad to share her knowledge with you. Look forward to hearing more about your furbabes and to see some more piccies ;D
Sending big hugs to Hamish and I hope he feels better soon, :hug:
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Hi Stuart,
Welcome to purrs. I don't know much about thyroid but it is treatable with meds or surgery depending on severity. As for CRF, my 8 year old Clapton has mild CRF and with fortekor treatment his condition has improved so much that he is borderline normal now. There are also various prescription diets available with low phosphorus but mine won't eat them. There is a website full of info but there is a lot to take in http://www.felinecrf.org/ . I would assume if your vet is going straight to subQ's, the condition is quite bad although I am surprised they haven't prescribed fortekor as it is very good. Basically, it opens the arteries around the kidneys which takes the pressure off them and allows their body to expel the toxins that build up and make them feel rough. There are others on here that have a better understanding than me. Getting the phosphorus intake down is important. If he won't eat prescription food, senior food (ie felix or whiskas) is lower phosphorus than regular food. I would also say that if Hamish is going to need regular subQ's, maybe you could speak to your vet about doing it yourself at home as it will be expensive having the vet do it without all the stress of overnight stays. Not all vets will allow home treatment. Good luck
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Good morning Stuart and :welcome: to Purrs
First of all thank you for taking Hamish in and giving him a good home and happy life all these years, he was a very lucky lad to meet you that night.
Unfortunately my encounter with CRF is not good as my cat did not last very long with it, however, there are members here whose cats have lived many years with CRF. In addition to Elaine I hope that Helen - (Tiggys Mum) sees this thread very soon. Helen gave me lots of advice when Cleo was poorly.
Have you seen this:
http://www.purrsinourhearts.co.uk/index.php?topic=4817.0
:luck:
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I am sure he will feel a lot better after 24 hours on fluids, and the vet explains things better to you then. Cats with CRF can live for years, so fingers crossed for him.
Mark, not all vets will use Fortekor, my vet doesn't rate it very much.
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Hi Stuart & :welcome: to Purrs
Sorry to hear about Hamish, I just want to say that although CRF is a progressive condition that you could have more time together than you think. My cat was diagnosed aged 17 and I was told 5 - 7 months would be a realistic timeframe of how long we had left together. In the end we had another 20 months and it was not CRF that took her, with medication and diet her CRF was so well controlled that every blood test we had her results got better and the test before I lost her showed her results to be within normal range! I really do second the recommendation of www.felinecrf.org There is a lot to take in about CRF but the website I linked to is very easy to digest and very thorough, I honestly believe that without the information that I had learned from that website my little girl would not have had as long as she did with me.
If Hamish is having IV fluids at the vets that could really pull him back so to speak, fluids at home is a completely different ball game and might not be necessary after Hamish has had his IV fluids. Once he's back home and stable as Mark says a really important aspect of controlling CRF is diet. My cat never ate the prescription foods either so we opted for lower phosphorous foods and when she decided they were the devils food she had 'normal' cat food with a special powder sprinkled on to absorb the phosphorous. Don't want to get too bogged down with specifics at the moment as there is such a lot to take in but this is a really active site so you can ask new questions as and when and hopefully someone with CRF knowledge will be along soon enough. Also if you ask your vet for the blood results and post them on here we can interpret them for you. The main ones to look for are Urea, Creatinine and Phosphorous.
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Hi Stuart,
You've got lots of good info already, and I really rate the felinecrf website, so much good info on there. I expect Hamish was dehydrated and hence the reason for the IV fluids, he will probably feel much better after that, and you may be able to give fluids yourself (subcutaneously) at home which can also help enourmously, it certainly helped with my Suzie, and wish I'd started it earlier with her.
Now I have Jasper, who also has CRF, fairly advanced, but he's on fortekor, and seems to be doing quite well at the moment. So although there is no cure for CRF, there are treatments that can improve quality of life.
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Thank You All so much for your words of support and advice.
Its silly, He's still here, but I cant stop crying. I'm not a negative Person, but in the past I have always learned to expect the worst. that way if it happens, you are kind of prepared, and if it does'nt it's a Bonus. I Took Hamish to the Vet's this morning, took me a wee while to find him. I slept with him in the spare room last night "he always Hogs the Pillow" but when I woke this morning, he was'nt there?? he had managed to crawl his way underneath to the back of the bed, had to take a stanley knife to it to get him out. and he comes out looking at me as if he was "saying whats the problem ??" He's still looking bright though :Luv:
Like I say I have 2 Cats Misty and Hamish, Misty is a Rebel, a kind of Rage against the machine Punk type.
whereas Hamish is the most couthiest laid back Cat you'd ever meet..allthough he does run like a panzy :innocent:
Misty thought he was the boss untill one day I took home fresh fish for them, when Misty came in about for some Hamish Hissed at him, I couldnt believe it myself, even misty had to take a second look at him :-:
I notice there was fortekor treatment mentioned ?? The vet's did give me Antirobe pill's for a mouth infection, but other than that, no other medicinal treatment has been suggested. I Had his bloods taken twice in the last six years, and both times was told they were fine, it was suggested the third last time I had him to vets, that they do a blood test, I said but he had his bloods done last year, the vet checked her PC and said "well there's no record of it here!" I told her "Great!! I pay for blood test, and you don't keep the results !!"
however when I went down today, The vet told me in 2001, he had slightly raised blood count. and yet I was told his bloods were fine.
Incompitent?? I dont know, I have thought about changing vets, but the nearest one is 15 miles away, and Both Hamish & Misty dont Travel well.
My Mother's last two cats had CRF, but i was'nt there to see the symptom's , I do remember her telling me that they want to feed Kirsty on Rice" which she didn't eat. Kirsty was 13 and Poor Geordie( Now He Was a BIG Cat ) was only 3, He was Just a Shell in the end..
You have these Beasties for so long, that you think they will be with you forever, But my Problem is that I know Sooner or later The Decision will have to be made for Euthanasia, I Wont Let him Suffer, no matter what !!
I am Just sitting here by the phone justnow, waiting for the vet to tell me how Hamish is doing.
I apologize for babling a bit, but It's good to speak to other people who have experianced or are going through the same
Once again THANK YOU ALL for your Kind words of support and encorougment
I will Keep you all updated on Hamish's condition
Stuart...
P.S. I will mention Fortekor and have a look at the FelineCRF website ;)
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Hammish in 1994
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Stuart,
Hamish and Minty are lovely. I'm sorry to hear about Hamish but please don't despair. Things can be done for CRF cats. Helen has already responded to you and I think there was another lady usualy on here who's cat suffered from CRF (Elaine and Winston?) but I may be wrong. Winston I believe lived to be 21.
Don't give up hope. I keep my fingers crossed.
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:welcome: to Purrs ;D
I am sorry to hear about Hamish and you are in the right place for good advice as you can see. It maybe a good idea to get your vet to give you a copy of any test results cos people on hear know about the numbers on them and will tell you a bit if they can.
I hope that your vet can treat Hamish and yes its Elaine and Winston, and Elaine has loads of info.
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Here is Elaines info on CRF:
Re: HELP ME PLEASE!!!
« Reply #42 on: December 18, 2006, 11:24:57 PM »
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I am posting the info from Elaines info on the hovel so I can add this to the links on this site, hope you dont mind Angel.
Chronic Renal Failure - CRF - Frequently Asked Questions
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LIVING WITH A CRF CAT
If you are reading this, your cat has probably been diagnosed with CRF. Your cat may be newly diagnosed or has been fighting this disease for some time.
You undoubtedly feel overwhelmed, frightened and emotionally devastated by the news. Don’t beat yourself up about not noticing anything sooner; cats are masters at masking until they can hide it no longer.
CRF is a very complex issue and all things are relevant. I have tried to keep it as simple and easy to understand as I could. CRF is a progressive, terminal illness and not usually an immediate death sentence. Most CRF cats can go on to live for quite some time. I would like to offer some hope and support where I can.
Winston was 18 and half years old when he was diagnosed. My vet offered me little hope, so I set off, heartbroken, and started to read and learn as much as I possibly could about CRF and am still learning today. It’s not all plain sailing and we had many emotional pit falls but Winston’s quality of life was good and we shared each others lives for another 2 and half years. Winston died at the grand old age of 21 on April 4th 2006.
I am not a vet nor am I an expert on CRF but wanted to share what I have learned and try to explain in layman’s terms. I hope this may help you and your cat.
WHAT IS CRF?
CRF or Chronic Renal Failure is, in my opinion, a little misleading and I prefer to use the term Insufficiency as opposed to Failure.
It’s a term that classifies kidney problems, which eventually results in kidney function being lost.
As kidney function is lost cats are unable to filter, process and eliminate waste products effectively, resulting in a build up of toxins in the blood stream, making your cat feel very sick.
WHAT ARE THE SIGNS OF CRF?
The signs can often be very subtle but usually include some or all of the following.
An increased thirst and/or urination
Loss of appetite
Vomiting
Weight loss
Dull coat
If you think your cat may have CRF, a trip to the vets for a blood and/or urine test will confirm this.
MY VET ADVISES TO PTS MY CAT
Vets may offer this option as it may be an easier solution for an owner who may feel that the cat is near the end or if faced with, what may be years of treatments to help keep the cat stable. Some owners may feel they wouldn’t be able to cope or afford on going treatments.
Many vets talk very negatively about CRF from the start which doesn’t instil much hope or confidence in the owner. It is important that you and your vet can talk openly and honestly with each other thus creating a good working relationship for the benefit of the cat.
Change vets or get a second opinion. Many vets are not very experienced with CRF, or they think that the owners won’t do what is necessary to help and care for a CRF cat.
No one can tell you how long your cat can live with CRF. Some cats may go down hill fast, while others may go on for years. Even cats with high kidney values can sometimes go on to live for quite some time.
Ask for a copy of the blood results and ask your vet to explain the values to you, and what your options are.
You know your cat better than any one else so follow your instincts.
CREATININE AND UREA ARE HIGH
Urea, when protein is broken down through the digestive process, ammonia is absorbed into the gut. The liver then makes a substance call urea from the ammonia. The urea then travels through the blood stream in the form of urea nitrogen to the kidneys, the blood is filtered out and the rest is filtered out as urine. This means that the urea test is to check the level of nitrogen in the bloodstream.
Creatinine is another waste product which is filtered through the kidneys. Creatinine can tell us more accurately of underlying kidney issues because diet, dehydration and stress affect it less.
Many vets will tell you these values and then tell you what the normal ranges are. It’s scary because it sounds like your cat’s values are exceptionally high. By doing this, your vet isn’t giving you a good reference.
Each cat is different. These values are variable and can be reduced with treatment or at least stabilised. Some cats are able to tolerate mid to high levels of Creatinine and Urea quite well.
For example
Normal ranges Urea = 3.5 – 8.0 mmol/L Creatinine = 40 – 180
Winston was stable for over a year with a Urea of 18mmol/L and Creatinine of 360 – 377
Although these numbers look high, Winston was comfortable. He had off days but mostly he was on good form.
MY CAT WONT EAT THE PRESCRIPTION FOOD
It’s always best to introduce new foods gradually. There are some mixed opinions about prescription food for CRF cats. The important thing is that your cat eats. If your cat won’t eat the prescribed food, try to find a food with the lowest phosphorus that your cat will eat. Senior cat foods tend to have less phosphorus than Adult cat foods. You may also want to discuss the use of phos binders with your vet. A phos binder will bind the phosphorus in the food in the intestine and stops it from being absorbed. A cat with CRF can‘t excrete phosphorus from its kidneys properly, this in turn may affect calcium levels which can have serious consequences. High levels of phosphorus will make your CRF cat feel very sick. It is recommended that the phosphorus level in the food you choose for your CRF cat should be under 1%, most prescription foods have a phosphorus level of under 0.5%.
TEMPTING YOUR CAT TO EAT
It’s very upsetting and frustrating when your cat refuses to eat. You may want to try the following.
Mixing some chicken or tuna into your cat’s food.
Try a variety of foods.
Sit with and talk to your cat while it’s eating.
Excess tummy acid is a big issue with CRF cats, ask your vet about Zantac syrup or similar to help settle your cats tummy.
Slippery Elm Bark may also be useful to help combat tummy acid.
Try mixing some tuna and water together.
Baby foods; just make sure they don’t contain any onion.
Try warming the food or adding a little boiled water to it.
Try assist feeding, sometimes if you can get a little food into your cat, he/she may start to eat on their own. Syringe a little food into the side of the mouth and not directly down the cat’s throat.
You may also want to ask your vet about appetite stimulants.
HIND LEG WEAKNESS
Your cat may have a potassium deficiency. Ask your vet about a potassium supplement.
MY CAT IS VERY SICK AND LETHARGIC
CRF cats are very prone to becoming anaemic. This can be life threatening and must be taken seriously and treated.
PCV and HCT are both values that can indicate anaemia. Your vet can prescribe Epogen or similar to help with this but my favourite is a supplement of B vits and Iron in the form of Pet Tinnic.
HOW WILL I KNOW WHEN IT’S TIME TO LET GO?
This is of course a very difficult time. Some say you will know instinctively, others that their cat let them know. It may be an idea to think about PTS before the time actually arrives. Talk to your vet and ask for their guidance. It’s very rare that a CRF cat will die peacefully in its sleep.
With Winston, it was under discussion for a week or two before; his age and ability to cope, as well as his quality of life were all considered. He was almost 21 years old and frail, his world had become so very small and he barely moved from the bed at this stage. He just seemed miserable and the bad times had now out weighed the good times. I couldn’t watch him suffer any more, despite my best efforts to help him. Sadly, the day after his 21st birthday, I let him go. He had had a long and happy life.
WHERE CAN I FIND OUT MORE ABOUT CRF?
There is a wealth of information on the internet about CRF. Try a search for Feline CRF and you will be faced with more sites than you could shake a stick at. Here are a few of my favourites.
Tanya's Feline CRF info centre
Nadia's Feline CRF page
Feline CRF Information Centre
FAB CRF Management Home
For The Love of Cats - CRF info page
World Small Animal Vetinary Association - CRF Care guidlines
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As I am sure many of you will be reading this thread , I would just like to remind you that we have a a button at the top called links and in there is some good health info, including the crf site and elaines info.
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Hi Stuart, so sorry to hear your cat has been diagnosed with CRF. You have already been given loads of very good advice and directed to the "bible of CRF" site.
Can I just start by saying that CRF is an emotional rollercoaster and the initial shock of the diagnosis was enough to set me off crying. I still cry and my old boy has been gone for over a year now so dont worry about getting upset here. One thing that I learned is to read as much as you can about the condition, learn fast but dont get too bogged down that you lose sight of the kitty. There are many of us that can help you here should you need anything made clearer.
Dont frett too much about the numbers as they are variable and with treatment, diet and the love of a good owner these can be brought down or made stable. It is a good idea to get copies of the blood tests so you can monitor the condition of your cat and the progression of the illness.
Try not to despair too much at this stage, many cats do really well after they have been rehydrated.
As for the CRF site, try to pick out the info you need right now, print it out, take it with you to the vets. Try to build a good working relationship with your vet for the sake of your kitty.
I noticed you mention your cat is currently taking antirobe for a mouth infection? You may also want to look into slippery elm bark too. Its very good for a multitude of things that CRF cats are prone to getting including mouth ulcers, ulcers of the esophigus (sp), constipation and diahorrea as well as excess tummy acid. You can find it under holistic treatments on the CRF site.
Anything you need, just ask no matter how silly you may think it is as all things are relevant when it comes to CRF.
Wishing you and your kitty lots of love and best wishes xxx
Try to stay possitive, your kitty needs you onside more now than ever before. xxx
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Hi Stuart
Sorry to hear about Hamish. I had my cat pts back in may due to renal cancer and I still cry when I think about that day. If your cats dont travel well it may be posible to fax the results off to the other vet for an opinion. Be persistent and inisist on tests and full blown explanations. Feel free to pick our brains here-I had the most wonderful help from people here when Fluffy was ill and had I not poured my heart and soul to complete strangers on here I would have never known what to ask the vet and therefore get the final result. Do not feel pressured into keeping to a time slot at the vets-if there is something you want knowing insist on them telling and if they say they have other patients to see then offer to wait or come back when they have more time/ On my last trip to the vets I spent a total of 4 hours talking to a vet over the course of the day on the phone whilst at work as well as face to face in the evening. If you are not happy with something dont be afraid to say. that is the one big regret I have with Fluffys treatment-I was not happy and didnt kick up a fuss as much as I should have.
I wish you and your furry friends all the best and most of all I hope Hamish does not suffer :hug:
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Hi Folks, The vet phoned yesterday and said that Hamish had improved a wee bit, and had eaten a couple of times, but were still wanting to keep him overnight to see how he was in the morning. I phoned not long ago and vet says he's really looking bright, and eating heaps of the special food, they are giving me that Fortekor for him also ;D
on the not so good, the gum infection (he's also got a jab for that) and his thyroid cannot be treated justnow. mainly concentrating on the CRF, and see how he fairs. I'll be picking him up at 11am to take him home to familiar surroundings. The vet also said she was amazed how manageable he is, not getting stressed out with all the fuss thats going on, I just said he's probably enjoing it !! Like I say he's got a really laid back personallity.
The vet also said I'd have to watch that now he's rehydrated, he keep's it and doesn't loose it all by still weeing.
I'll also get the Blood Count and post it on here later today
Stuart.........
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Am glad things are seeming more positive - kidney and hyper-t do go hand in hand, but I am sure you will be able to deal with that when his kidney values are better. Fingers crossed you have lots more time with each other.
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ok heres the results
crea 923.00 umo1/1 44 - 159 Hi481%
tp 88.00 g/1 52 - 82 Hi 7%
urea mmo1/1 2.5 - 9.64 Hi381%
heart rate is over 200
the vet said this is not good
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He's right, it is way outside the normal range. Lynn may be able to explain it to you ... :hug:
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ok heres the results
crea 923.00 umo1/1 44 - 159 Hi481%
tp 88.00 g/1 52 - 82 Hi 7%
urea mmo1/1 2.5 - 9.64 Hi381%
the vet said this is not good
Were these bloods taken before the rehydration? - if so they may look a lot better after rehydration. The creatinine is very high, but I can't see what the urea figure is. Would you vet be willing to let you do subcutaneous fluids at home? This would certainly help to keep him rehydrated. It helped for a little while with my Suzie, and she was a remarkably good patient. Sounds good that he's eating though.
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ok heres the results
crea 923.00 umo1/1 44 - 159 Hi481%
tp 88.00 g/1 52 - 82 Hi 7%
urea mmo1/1 2.5 - 9.64 Hi381%
the vet said this is not good
Were these bloods taken before the rehydration? - if so they may look a lot better after rehydration. The creatinine is very high, but I can't see what the urea figure is. Would you vet be willing to let you do subcutaneous fluids at home? This would certainly help to keep him rehydrated. It helped for a little while with my Suzie, and she was a remarkably good patient. Sounds good that he's eating though.
I agree with Gillian, if the bloods were done before the rehydration, they have probably improved since being rehydrated. I hope the Fortekor and diet will probably help. http://www.felinecrf.org/treatments.htm#what_is_benazepril
Asking and talking to your vet about sub-q's is also a good idea as I fail to see how you can stop your cat losing the fluids by weeing. You may also want to add extra fluids to your cats food and/or get a water fountain to encourage him to drink more as cats are not instinctively drawn to water in the same way that dogs are. Every little helps.
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Those results do look very high, I would imagine they were taken prior to the IV fluids. Is your vet going to be re-testing Hamish after he's had finished his IV's? They could have come down dramatically by now.
With regards the hyperthyroid my cat Tiggy had both CRF and hyperthyroid, she was hyperthyroid for the last 4-5 years of her life, it was really well controlled by meds. My vet liked to try and keep her thyroid levels at the high end of normal as a faster bloodflow is good for the ailing kidneys.
Glad that he seems to be coping at the vets OK, I bet you can't wait to have him home though :hug:
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My Tiffy has CRF
I thought he was going to die about a month ago.
I spent nights syringe feeding him and giving fluids by syringe and he managed to pull through.
With CRF, cats can crash and they look like there are dying, Its very easy to let emotion sway our judgement. I have found this very hard. It can be an emotional rollecoaster but sometimes very worthwhile.
I have been taught to give subcutaneous fluids at home. It works and Tiffy has a good quality of life. Its like topping his system up. I think CRF cats get to the stage where there oral intake doesnt keep up with the increased fluid loss through the kidneys. So overtime, dehydration can happen but isnt noticed easily. So it can get to the stage of danger and you think the cat is dying. Ways to check for dehydration include looking at the gums to see if they are dry and checking for uraemic ulceration. Also you can do the pinch test by lifting the scruff of the neck and observing how quickly the skin returns to its normal state (tissue turgor) but please be aware that if the cat has lost a lot of weight, that the skin at the scruff may have become looser and so give a false reading. The best way to check for dehydration is a blood test unfortunately. The tests look at PCV (packed cell volume). A Urine dipstick can be used to test the specific gravity. This shows how concentrated the urine is. The pulse rate you stated will be because of a reduced systemic blood volume. The heart will have to beat faster to pump the available blood around the body. This changes as to how the body is hyrdrated. Also your vet needs to consider high blood pressure as this may need to be addressed.
Elaine on this forum has helped loads. Shes had a lot of experience with CRF and sadly im catching up.
For me I find the following very important.
In the case of finding the cat very ill. It is worth trying to syringe feed and give fluids for a day or 2. The CRF cat tends to do better with better hydration and their BUN and creatinine levels will change as they get better hydrated. Antibiotics may be neccesary to treat uraemic ulceration or other infection caused by the crash. An antacid drug like felodipine may help the cat with the nausea and encourage it to eat these drugs work by reducing the acid levels in the stomach and so reducing the nausea. A steroid injection may help to give a boost and as an appetite stimulant.
CRF cats can feel sick if they have ureamia/ high levels of blood toxins and so anti emetic medications or slippery elm bark is useful. They wont eat of they feel sick and so syringe feeding is important. If a cat doesnt eat for a while they can develop a condition called hepatic lipidosis or fatty liver disease. This can be fatal. In this case, force feeding by sryinge at home will save its life. Also if the cat has uraemic ulcers in its mouth, these are likely to make its mouth feel sore and make the cat less willing to want to eat as much as it needs. If the cat is dehydrated its mouth will be very dry and this will not help. I find blending Tiffys food so its not puree, but an easier texture helps. I have also invested in cat water fountains with filters and also a britta water filter jug. He loves the filtered water and its better for his kidneys. He definately takes more water now its filtered.
If the cat wont eat specialist renal foods. You can add a phosphate binder to the food to make it less toxic to the kidneys. Sometime, its better just to get the cat to eat something. If you need to syringe feed, Using a blender and adding a little water works well as you dont need to use Hills A/D which is the only available food that is easily sryinge feedable. Also adding water helps with the fluid intake. If you would like some tips on syringe feeding then feel free to ask.
The cats bowel habits need to be monitored as being dehydrated causes constipation and this will make the cat feel lousy and if this goes on for a long time, puts the cat at risk of megacolon. I use 1/2 ml of lactulose twice daily and its working well.
Vitamins especialy the B vitamins are important in CRF and so suppliments can help.
Please take a look at my post about giving subcutaeous fluids.
http://www.purrsinourhearts.co.uk/index.php?topic=6964.0
Good luck and best wishes. Its really worth trying to give things a go. CRF is incurable but there are many stories here and on the feline CRF website about CRF cats living happy lives for up to a few years.
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Hi ppl, Hamish is home and looking / feeling better ;D
Yes the Results were the ones taken before the rehydration, I have asked the vet how many times you can do this IV thingy and she said as
many times as you want, I also asked her about replenishing his fluid's at home, and she said this is done with a syringe under the loose skin at
the neck, sounds easy :'( I see sub-q's were mentioned, there was nothing said about those. what are sub-q's ??
He still seem's to be eating the Royal canin Renal food as does Misty, had to go back to the surgery and ask them is it ok for him to eat it also?
as splitting them up when they have always eaten together, just because they have different foods is a shame.
but I was told because Misty is 16 years and 1 month (only found out his correct age today) that it would do him no harm..
Hamish has spent most of the day Looking out of his window watching the cars go by(with me trailing behind him with a bowl of water) but he
is back in the spare room now, I Know he's still not 100% but he is looking an awful lot better( apart from all his shaved bits, 2 in the neck and 1 on each front leg)
Have to take him back to vet's on monday, see how he's doing
p.s. I did ask about slippery elm bark and Phos Binders, but was told he doesn't need them justnow
Thanks again, and I'll keep you Posted on how he's doing ;)
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Sub-q's is the term used for syringing fluids under the skin as your vet described.
So pleased to hear that Hamish is doing well xxx
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I did ask about slippery elm bark and Phos Binders, but was told he doesn't need them justnow
Just a couple of thoughts.
I didnt start using phosphate binders Till Tiffy became seriously ill. I do wonder if I should have started earlier.
The cat Has CRF. A chronic disease process that is going to get worse. The kidneys are at a stage of being permanently damaged due to polycystic disease or glomerular nephritis and so on and could at any point decide to fail fully. Suerly, any thing that will make the kidneys job easier and not stress them so much is a good thing and could possible increase life expectancy and quality of life. Is it a case of the more done earlier on may help in delaying the disease process.
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The kidney is made up of a million or so tubules called nephrons.
These microscopic structures are responsible for flitering waste products out of the blood.
Each nephron has a glomerulus, a proximal convoluted tubule, a loop of henley a distal convoluted tubule and a collecting duct.
The blood flows in by the renal artery and flows through the afferent arteriole to the glomeruli. The glomerulus is like a tiny sieve. It only allows molecules small enough to pass through. Molecules that are valuable and needed are too big to fit through and so are saved and reintroduced into the blood stream. Molecules like creatinine and urea pass through. Urea is a by product of metabolism and is the result of the bodys conversion of amonia. In a diseased kidney, the glomeruli may be unable to work properly and so needed molecules may escape so depleting the body. In diabetes, glucose molecules can be detected in urine for example. There is a blood test that can determine the glomerular filtration rate (GFR).
The tubules and loop of henley work by osmosis. depending on the body's hydration status, sodium molecules pass either in or out to allow more or less water to be extracted into urine through the tubule membranes. There is a minimum and maximum rate of filtering. This mechanism is important in maintaining blood pressure. High blood pressure can damage these tubules and glomeruli. In a diseased kidney, more urine tends to get produced with a weaker concentration of toxins and so the cat becomes dehydrated over time.
The collecting duct is where the resulting urine collects and passes into the ureter down to the bladder. Cleansed blood is returned via the efferent arteriole to the renal vein.
It is generally accepted that a deterioration may not be seen untill 75% of kidney function is lost. This shows the kidneys great reserve but at the same time means things may not be picked up until very late on.
Please dont think im trying to be clever in posting this. Im not sureof youre knowledge and thought it might help.
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I did ask about slippery elm bark and Phos Binders, but was told he doesn't need them justnow
Just a couple of thoughts.
I didnt start using phosphate binders Till Tiffy became seriously ill. I do wonder if I should have started earlier.
The cat Has CRF. A chronic disease process that is going to get worse. The kidneys are at a stage of being permanently damaged due to polycystic disease or glomerular nephritis and so on and could at any point decide to fail fully. Suerly, any thing that will make the kidneys job easier and not stress them so much is a good thing and could possible increase life expectancy and quality of life. Is it a case of the more done earlier on may help in delaying the disease process.
I have to agree with that. I also beleive that in my old boy Winstons case that vitamin supplements helped greatly too. It is my beleif that if I hadnt given him regular B vitamins and trace iron that he would have probably became anaemic.
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I did ask about slippery elm bark and Phos Binders, but was told he doesn't need them justnow
Just a couple of thoughts.
I didnt start using phosphate binders Till Tiffy became seriously ill. I do wonder if I should have started earlier.
The cat Has CRF. A chronic disease process that is going to get worse. The kidneys are at a stage of being permanently damaged due to polycystic disease or glomerular nephritis and so on and could at any point decide to fail fully. Suerly, any thing that will make the kidneys job easier and not stress them so much is a good thing and could possible increase life expectancy and quality of life. Is it a case of the more done earlier on may help in delaying the disease process.
Thanks Cheeky Monkey
I will DEFINATELY bring this up, after all I'm paying for his treatment, and only want the Best for him :Luv:
I am Now >:( that they didn't give me the option !!!
Stuart.........
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I asked my vet about phosphate binders and he was very dismissive saying he doesn't approve of them and they "can cause problems". A lot of people think they help. The good thing is, they can eat their regular food with them as they are tasteless and odourless. I did some reading up on it and it says a build up of calcium can cause dementia. I have also considered ground eggshell as a natural binder. Clapton loves packet ham & chicken. I never allowed him much anyway but I'm even more careful with it now as its loaded with phosphate additives. I allow hime just enought to wrap his fortekor in.
I also give him bottled water. I was using brita filtered water but I bought a new jug recently and it had a warning regarding people with kidney problems. It said that filtered water can have raised pottasium levels. As I don't know the implications of this, I stick with bottled water (27p for 2L in Lidl ;D )
My vet's opinion of slippery elm is "harmless but useless" - I think it helped when he was nauseous. I just sprinked it on his food and although it has a funny smell, he ate it anyway and he is really fussy.
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Am glad to hear he is home and seeming better, fingers crossed for him. Are they going to repeat the bloods?
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many times as you want, I also asked her about replenishing his fluid's at home, and she said this is done with a syringe under the loose skin at
the neck, sounds easy :'( I see sub-q's were mentioned, there was nothing said about those. what are sub-q's ??
p.s. I did ask about slippery elm bark and Phos Binders, but was told he doesn't need them justnow
Yes, as Elaine mentioned, sub-qs are what your vet is talking about when he mentions replenishing his fluids at home. It would be better to start this now, because he will become dehydrated again quite quickly. Heres a link to a pictorial of how to administer (you need to scroll down a bit) - it really is easy. http://felinecrf.org/giving_sub-qs_syringe.htm
As to phosphate binders, if your vet's said he doesnt need them, then its likely his phosphorus levels are within normal range. Slippery elm is useful if he's feeling nauseous.
Glad to hear he's a bit brighter.
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Hamish is still looking bright. but at 2pm he appeared through in the kitchen where his food was kept (he has food and water next to him in
the spare room) he was hounding me for food, I opened a new sachet of the special renal food thinking he would eat that, he curled his
nose up a kept meowing looking at me, tearing at my heart strings, I gave in and tried mixing it with some boiled ham, No, he still wouldnt eat,
ended up putting small amount on top of food, and Cats being Cats, he just ate the ham.
I have also noticed his back end is looking unsteady and weak, I'm really starting to despair as I do not like seeing Him like this...
The vet says he can eat human stodgey foods, I know he likes the pastry off of Bakewell tart's, and some biscuits, and sometimes fried rice
from the chinese, but how can he survive off of that alone?? I have tried heating food in the Microwave "to no avail"
My eye's are going :Crazy: with all this scouring on the internet, and I still cant find day any good suggestions!!
Has anybody any good suggestions ??
Thanks Mark, I'm away down to Lidls to get some bottled water, and a few packets of bakewell tarts....
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Try this link http://felinecrf.org/persuading_cat_to_eat.htm and if he won't eat the renal food, then just feed him his normal food, its more important he eats something.
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I don't know if its just luck but I tried virtually every wet catfood I could find, including really expensive ones. After trying expensive ones, I tried all the supermarket own brand foods. Clapton finally decided he liked Tesco own brand sachets in Jelly. I also try to get him to eat whiskas senior but 80 - 90% of his diet is Tesco pouches. I was worried about his blood readings being worse but they have improved so It can't be that bad. I tried all the renal foods but he won't touch any of them.
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have you tried the ocean range at asda? thats not its full name but I cant remember it. Its only seafood type stuff different stuff mixed togetehr and you can buy three portions for £1. It has a picture of a white cat on the front and you can buy sachets an tins. My Fluff had renal cancer and thats all she would eat near the end (I know its nowhere near the same as your prob but it may help!)
Good luck
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Yes Mark I have done the same in the past :evillaugh: I remember i Used to buy them Felix in jelly, then Felix brought out the Gravy range,
thought I'd try them with that, they went off of that after a while, so I went back to Felix in jelly.
The wee butter wouldn't look at it :-: so after picking every type of catfood off the shelf (like yourself Cheap/expensive) at the end of
last year they got a taste of Tesco chicken pouches, they loved them, I think it was about 4 and a half months ago, I noticed that there
was quite a lot of food left in their dishes?? so back to the drawing board i went, currently have Whiskas supermeat, Hi Life 60% real
poultry and Gourmet pearl sitting in the cat cupboard.
Hi Tammy, no I haven't tried the ocean range at asda, might give that a try also,
Try this link http://felinecrf.org/persuading_cat_to_eat.htm and if he won't eat the renal food, then just feed him his normal food, its more important he eats something.
I had a really good read at this, and it does say that you can give them normal food, but only for a short term
( although my vet said no chicken/fish or meat of any kind ) felinecrf.org Really is an excellent website !!!
my wife came home from work and went to bed, Hamish slept with her, It was 6 hrs later he appeared wanting food again !!!
He drank the bottled water, and he ate some of the pastry, but not a lot :( then he just Crawled his way back under the duvet, I
have been through with him to give him water, But when he's finished he just goes back under the duvet again :(
Hamish is back at the vet tomorrow, so we'll see what she says ..
Thank's for suggestions
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I am surprised that vet said no fish or meat cos surley thats what a cats food is,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,was this just real fish or meat or cat food?
Kocka had CRF and lived on ad diet and what ever else I could get her to eat, this changed often especially when I had bought a large quantity of her current favorite. She would only eat the ad from my finger and I now hate the smell of it!
She was a terribly faddy eater and thats why ad became her main food but she liked tescoes and sainsburys pouches............well she ate the jelly only!! She started eating supermeat again just before she passed to the Bridge and that was a last hope at getting her to eat at all and I was shocked that after so many years she would eat it again.
My vet told me its better that they eat something rather than nothing and because Kocka could not be medicated he said if it was his cat he would let her eat anything she wanted. She went to the Bridge aged 20yrs and had been ill for about 3-4 yrs.
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I'm surprised at the "No Fish" advice. My vet advised fish and chicken for clapton. He said no Pork as the molecules are too large to pass through a cat's capillaries. It seems clapton won't touch anything made by Purina - ie Felix, gourmet pearl. If you haven't tried it, Whiskas senior in gravy seems to go down quite well. I know the phosphate levels are lower than regular whiskas as Masteroods gave me the numbers over the phone - Helen (Tiggysmum) passed the info on the the woman who runs the CRF site as they wouldn't give her the figures previously. Not sure if they are on the site now. Whiskas also do a supermeat senior but Clapton wasn't impressed with it :evillaugh:
I remember years ago before prescription and senior foods were available, vets always recommended fish for cats with kidney problems. If you haven't tried Hill's k/d chunks in gravy, PM your address and I can post you a couple for him to try. Clapton turned his nose up at them. I also have a dutch brand that he wouldn't eat.
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I hope your vet just meant not fresh meat/seafood and not no meat/fish of any kind including cat food, as you will put his health at risk by not feeding any meat at all - cats need the taurine found in it, they can't make it themselves - and they can't live on a purely fish diet for the same reason, as fish doesn't contain large amounts of taurine.
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Bad news, Hamish is not looking well today. His skin seems tight and his face is drawn, he is distant and didn't look at me
when I spoke to him. he has had his breakfast, but I am noticing that he is whinceing when he is eating, and he keeps
rubbing his jaw after food and water. His gum infection must be causing him pain.. I have been in Denial since his change
started. I work offshore, and have been on stand-by for the last 6 weeks. I am Lucky I have been home with him all
this time, and I think thats how I really noticed the change in him over the past few weeks..
My main worry now is that my work will phone me and send me off to a job ( I could be away for up to 3 weeks) and
I wouldn't be there to look after him. my wifes a nurse and she works 12hr shifts, which is no use iether....
I Feel the End is Close..It's just a matter of time.....
He has the vet's this morning, so we'll see what she's saying about him....I Dont see the point of trying to get him to
eat the medicated food, and I will buy all his Favorites for him today..
Stuart.........
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Sorry to hear this Stuart :hug: Hope the vet has some more positive news.
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Sorry Stuart,
Is the reason they won't take the teeth out because they don't want to risk anaesthia with his kidneys?
Maybe they can give him some pain relief for his mouth and antibiotics.
Lets just hope the vet can suggest something positive.
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I have to take Hamish back to the surgery on wednesday, the vet gave him sub-q injection and a painkiller injection for his mouth
He has lost all his IV fluids that he had done. I have also have Homeopathic drops to give him for his kidneys and veter gesic painkiller
for his mouth tomorrow. The vet says we are trying to stablize his condition, so he can manage on his own, But its not looking good
Hamish is back in the spare room, "but not under the Duvet" he hasn't drank anything yet or eaten, but the vet did say the
painkiller may make him sleepy.
Hi Mark, It's a catch 22, they cant risk sorting his teeth because the anesthetic would probably kill him, don't think its because
of his Kidneys, more to do with his thyroid and heart rate...
Stuart.......
P.S. Thanks for the tip about the Rescue Remedy Elaine, It seems to have worked a treat.
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I have to take Hamish back to the surgery on wednesday, the vet gave him sub-q injection and a painkiller injection for his mouth
He has lost all his IV fluids that he had done. I have also have Homeopathic drops to give him for his kidneys and veter gesic painkiller
for his mouth tomorrow. The vet says we are trying to stablize his condition, so he can manage on his own, But its not looking good
I'm sorry he's not doing so good. Is your vet going to show you how to do subq fluids at home? It doesnt sound as though Hamish will be able to manage on his own, since he's already lost all the IV fluids, he will quickly become dehyrated again, if he isnt already, unless he has further fluids at home, or is given further IV fluids at the vets. IV fluids at the vets will make him feel better again, but this will really need to be topped up by Subqs as soon as he is home. When my Suzie was on a IV drip for 3 days, I was told to start the subq fluids at home the day after she came home to keep it topped up. This only gave me an extra month with her - but right up until the last couple of days, she was doing really well, eating fine and acting normally - so she did have quality of life for that short time.
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Hi Gillian, I was shown the way to give sub-q fluids, but I'm not keen on doing it (I'm hoping he will manage on his own) although it doesnt
look like he will. It would only take me 5min's to the vet if I change my mind. more IV treatment was suggested, but selfishly I said I want
him to be home in Familiar surrounding's. and not let the old guy get stressed out.. I Honestly Don't know what to do for the best...
I don't Like seeing him like this, and I don't want him to suffer..
I have got him wafer thin ham, and he has eaten quite a lot of that, But his mouth is really hurting him now even when he's trying to drink
the pain Killer should be working now ??
Misty my other cat (I have been neglecting him through all this) has been keeping his distance from Hamish, and just appearing now and
then to see whats happening and what all the fuss is about, It's strange but I think he knows Hamish is very unwell, and stares at him
when he's trying to eat/drink. although for a short period this afternoon ( long enough to get a photo anyway ) they were kind of back
to normal " minus the routine cleaning act " and slept together for a wee while..
But the way he is just now I am thinking of accepting the situation and let nature take it's course..it feels as if were fighting a losing battle
Keeping my Fingers Crossed for a Miracle that Hamish will put up a fight
Stuart.......
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I'm sure any food is better than none but most wafer thin ham has a lot of phosphorus (phosphate preservatives) so would try to limit the amount. My cat willow seemed to know when clapton was feeling poorly and stopped bullying him. She is back to being a brat :evillaugh:
As for letting nature take its course, I would take the vets advice on that as I don't think its a good way to go (I think they have convulsions at the end) and it would be kinder for the vet to help him over if you make the decision. There is some info on the CRF site.
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Hi Mark
I'm sure any food is better than none but most wafer thin ham has a lot of phosphorus (phosphate preservatives) so would try to limit the amount. My cat willow seemed to know when clapton was feeling poorly and stopped bullying him. She is back to being a brat :evillaugh:
As for letting nature take its course, I would take the vets advice on that as I don't think its a good way to go (I think they have convulsions at the end) and it would be kinder for the vet to help him over if you make the decision. There is some info on the CRF site.
Ham Has Phosphorus ?? I cant win :(
I did read through my post a couple of times before submitting, and did wonder about the wording of (letting nature take its course)
what I meant was ... I still cant find a right way of putting it !! " If its not meant to be, and Hamish Loses his will to fight this, The time
will come for a decision to be made of being pts by the vet "
There is no way I would let him go by himself!!!, Like I said I dont want him to suffer..
16 years he's been at my side and I'm not taking this very well at all... in the past I have been there when the vet has pts family pets
and I do know it is a quick and painless esacape from suffering ..
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Hi Stuart,
I wanted to do subqs at home, but I found it quite nerve-wracking doing it for the first time on my own (even though I'd done it perfectly well while under the eagle eye of my vet first!) and I made a few mistakes, but to see how well Suzie did, after each injection, made all the anxiety worth it.
If your vet does think that nothing further can be done, you can ask that he comes to the house to pts, rather than stressing Hamish out by taking him to the surgery.
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The words "emotional rollercoaster" often come to mind. Its almost like a full time job sometimes trying to make them eat and wondering if they should be at the vets again. I know Claptons numbers are much lower than Hamish' but we have been through similar things with him. He was refusing to eat at one point but the steroid jab kick-started his appetite. It has never been the same but he eats now. He had a bad tooth a few months ago but the vet said he couldn't risk anaesthetic and gave him antibiotics and vitamins. Last week his teeth were so bad, the vet took his last 4 out.
Not all ham has phosphates but most processed meats seem to have them. I bought some Herta ham at the weekend as I saw it doesn't have them but I just looked at the pack again and it has onion in so I can't give it to him.
We have decided that if he loses quality of life we will make the decision. The thing is, they can bounce back so many times so there really never is a right time. Maybe it is something for the vet to advise on really. Its so hard to know what to do for the best.
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I personally would not wait for the vet to advise. My cat had end stage cancer of the kidneys with tumors in all sorts of places and the vet was still suggesting doing stuff, which would have prolonged her life but not improved it-just prolonged the pain and stress. At that point she was struggling to swollow her own saliva due to tumors! My personal opinion if it were my cat would be that if she hasnt consistently good quality of life(and I dont mean just ocassional bad days are not allowed!) than its time to let go as hard as that may be-Ive lived through some hard times with my 2 and I can see it from both perspectives. You dont really want them to detiriorate too badly before deciding because thats what I did and it still haunts me to this day that the last few weeks of her life had been like that. Sorry to be glum but it will one day come for you to make this choice........... :'(
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Oh Stuart, I am so sorry to be reading this, I had hoped Hamish would have been in better fettle today.
Sadly only you can make the decision as to whether to continue with fluids etc. Its a very difficult time I know. Perhaps more fluids will help and perhaps Hamish may lose them as quickly again.
My only advice at this time is that you know Hamish better than any one so trust your instincts.
Maybe you could call another vet like the one in Mintlaw just to seek a second opinion about his condition before making a decision.
I wish both you and Hamish lots of love and best wishes, give the old fella a cuddle for me please.
Elaine xxx
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So sorry that Hamish is not improving :hug: :hug:
I think if his mouth is so painful its gonna be hard for him to eat and am pretty sure that this is the main deterent for him right now. I have no experience of sub Q except what I have read from the wonderful people on here.
If he can eat wafer thin ham, let him, I would let him eat anything he can manage cos at least that will let him feel a bit better and any food is better than none.
Right now the effects of the food are the least of the worries I think.
Sending you and Hamish all my thoughts :hug: :hug:
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Hi PPL, I can't thank you all enough for your help and support through Hamish's time in need.
I got Hamish some Aberdeen Angus Beef from the Butchers ( that was hard cause I'm a Vegetarian ) nothing but pure beef, got my
mother to cook it, cut it up into little pieces for him, He went Mad for it, so enthusiastic until I noticed he was spitting it out. his mouth
is that sore he cant even chew now. I put it in the blender for him adding some water " he looked at it but wont go near it "
I have also tried him with the rest of the other cat foods, but the same again he just looks at it...
every half hour I wake him and sit with him trying to encourage him to drink, he is hardly sticking his tounge out, and is taking in
very little water, about 4 days ago I raised his bowl so he didn't have to bend down, but even that is'nt helping much now..
I still Cant Believe Only 7 days ago, Hamish was reasonably well, apart from not eating a lot and drinking more, even the vet said
today that his coat is still in good condition. But like a lot of you have said, I Know Hamish better than anyone. and I can see he
Really is unwell.
I have been trying to weigh out the good from the bad today, asking myself questions..
what will his quality of life be? what will be his benefits if he carrys on? do I really want to put him through this ?? etc.etc
He is an old Mannie, and although he was good with his sub-q injection, I could see he didn't like it as it was sore/uncomfortable
I remember my mothers dog, she was 17 years old, she was still healthy but the body was done. I remember the conversation
I had with mum about putting her to sleep, but she was in denial ( I think we all go through that ) Her argument was that she
wasn't suffering as she was in no pain... but for six months I had to carry her outside to the toilet as she could hardly walk and
was semi blind and deaf. some people think there is only suffering in Pain,, but I also think if they cannot continue as they did
before, then that also is a form of suffering....
I can't think of anything more to say now, Hamish is in God's hand's
I Really Hope somehow he pull's through this and has some quality of life, But I also feel it may be his time:(
Thank you All again for your support, I HAVE REALLY Appreciated it..
I will let you know what happens...
KIndest Regards Stuart.............
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Sounds like the dehydration is making him feel lousy. I know its hard but please see if you can try sryinge feeding.
I know it will look like he hates it, but it could maybe turn things around. Ask your vet for a 20ml syringe
Get some wet food and your blender. Put the wet food in, add some water and puree.
Get a large towel, some kitchen wipes and the food in a bowl.
Get kitty and wrap him up in the towel. lay him down so his head is furthest away and looking up.
Take the plunger out of the syringe and spoon the puree in.
When full, hold the syringe so the plunger is facing away from you and shake it. then draw up the plungers o the feed travels to the tip and the syringe is primed.
Use your non dominant hand and gently place over his head so you can control his head movement.
hold the syringe and place the tip in th cats mouth to the side pointing slightly upwards. The cat will automatically start to open and close their mouth and the swallow process will be activated. Slowly squirt a few mls aimed at the roof of the mouth. and allow the cat to swallow. Squirting and coating the roof of the mouth helps the cat avoid aspiration (food going into lungs). When sure the cat is ready repeat.
The puree needs to be thick enough to coat the roof of the mouth but not too think as to be difficult to give via syringe. The speed of the puree is important. The thicker the fluid, the slower the speed of that fluid and the easier it is to control.
I know this sounds cruel, but it could make all the difference. I did this wth Tiffy and I thought he was at deaths door. After about 3 days I saw a good improvement. I hope you might see similar things. Please think about it.
I wish you all the best and hope and prayers to kitty
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I tried putting food in the blender for Kocka who also had a sore mouth and the blender cannot make the food into a paste without little bits in it, like coffee grains, and that hurt her mouth badly cos it sticks in all the places its sore and she would not eat it. It caused her to be in pain.
Ad diet is grain free and like a cream, also very tasty but you have to get it from the vets. Kocka would lick it off my finger and also off a spoon and it was her main food for 4 yrs approx.
The problem is hamish cannot eat cos his mouth is too sore, cos he cant eat and is not drinking.........it maybe too sore for that too......he will be come dehydrated very quickly.
Stuart, I feel you have made a decision and my thoughts are with you :hug: :hug:
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If he was given a painkiling injection (Metacam?) today, surely it can't be mouth pain bothering him? - maybe nausea? - poor Hamish :'(
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I dont know how cats feel mouth pain but in humans some cannot be touched by painkillers!
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I guess I have been lucky with my blender. I used Iams senior and added phosphate binders and about 5mls water The Iams is in gravy and I didnt see any little bits in it. I'm guessing some foods contain ash and other bitty things.
Tiffy's mouth was really sore with the uraemic ulcers.
But using syringe feeding to get him hydrated they got better quickly and he tolerated the feeding.
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I dont know how cats feel mouth pain but in humans some cannot be touched by painkillers!
Metacam worked on clapton but maybe it doesn't work so well with ulcers?
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Yes Mark thats the problem I reckon :'(
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> Stuart....thinking of you and Hamish at this difficult time :hug: :hug:
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Will be thinking of you and Hamish today, it sadly isn't sounding too good, I would try and have a serious chat with your vet about all the options, it does sound like his mouth is one of the biggest issues. At least he has an owner who is willing to put him first, and will do the right thing, that really will make all the difference.
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Hi Stuart, I know you have alot of serious things to think about at the moment as to Hamish and his future but I was wondering, is his mouth pain due to a bad tooth or is it mouth ulcers? If it's the latter then slippery elm bark may help.
Hills AD isnt ideal for crf cats but at this point he must eat and it is very good for syringe feeding. Maybe some cooked(not raw) egg white might be easier for him to chew and swallow.
I sincerely wish you both all the very best. xxx
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I was reading up on eggs and it said that most of the goodness is in the yolk, also that uncooked it has 80% higher absorbtion rate than cooked. I gave clapton some whisked raw egg when his mouth was bad.
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http://www.felinecrf.org/persuading_cat_to_eat.htm#eggs
Raw egg contains avidin,avidin combines with the biotin and makes it unavailable to the cat, since crf cats need their B vits, it is better to cook the egg white to destroy the avidin.
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Thanks Elaine,
I won't be giving him that again. It was when I was at my wits end and he hadn't eaten for days
- before he had the steroid jab.
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It wouldnt have done him any harm Mark, he just wouldnt have got the full benefit of vitamins. :hug:
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Hamish just managed to get up this morning, he had a drink" not a big one " Used his litter tray for a wee. and proceeded to head for his
route to get up on the window sill, via the tv stand and tv, but he is really unsteady on his feet, I lifted him onto window sill, and stood
with him, till he decided it was time to come down. I tried to give him some more Beef, He managed a very small piece, but went back
to spitting out the rest and then just looking at it.. I tried him with eggs 2 days ago, but wouldn't touch them..
the vet didn't tell me, and I didn't ask if he had ulsers or just bad teeth, she did show me his gums, and they were pretty discoloured
and red. Ill ask her tomorrow..
I have also been thinking that if his mouth was ok would he be fairing better??, HE Does want to eat, But I think the pain is stopping him
same goes for the drinking, he has had about 5 drinks today, but it is hard to see how much he is taking in, as he is not drinking normally
He just sticks his tounge out not even half way, and there is a lot of dribbling, then he just goes back to his pillow and lie's with his head
down. It Broke my heart today, when I was Clapping him, he Lifted his leg so I could rub his belly, He always Loved that. But I have been
Handling him as though he is made of Glass, So the rubbed Belly was a short gentle one.
I did think about the Syringe feeding but with his mouth being so sore, I dont want to hurt him, he has never liked his chin touched.
Hamish was supposed to go back to the vets tomorrow, But I think I will get the vet to come here, and we'll see what she is saying..
I have been thinking about the Past a lot today, I've had Hamish since I was 21, and in the bad times!! He's Always been there for me..
Breakups with girlfriends, Loss of Grandparents and family, when I've been unwell. etc.. He was always there to Comfort me..
Now I find Myself with this Decision " of being without him " I can Feel The Depression setting in. I know I Will still have Misty to help me
through this, But then That is another thing If The Worst Comes to the Worst " Do I show Hamish to Misty ??" I have been looking on
the internet to see what is best, and all I have found is that it is up to yourself (doesn't help much) I also read that some companions
also mourn the loss and stop eating. MY gut Feeling is NOT to let Misty see Hamish.
And I feel a bit pressured into making a decision about Hamish, because of work, they still haven't phoned me, but I got an e-mail yesterday
and basically I'm just waiting for the call to go. If I go Who will Look after Hamish??, and I know I would not be able to concentrate on
the Job IF I did go. the way I feel just now is to tell them to stick thier job...
Stuart..
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if Hamish and Misty are close then yes I think it would be best for her to see him.
I can understand everything you say about the past and I still think about it evn though Kocka went to the Bridge 2 yrs ago.
I would see what your vet has to say but he cannot go on not eating cos that will cause other problems.
I feel so much for you and I am sure that everyone else does too.
Please give Hamish a gentle stroke from me and my Gang of 4, I am thinking about you both :hug: :hug: :hug:
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First things first, from what you have said, its my feeling that it is his painful mouth that seems to be the problem, if there was any way the vet could help that then it would probably help greatly but if I remember correctly they are worried about his heart? You really do have a catch 22 situation here Stuart and I really do feel for you and Hamish.
I also understand when you talk about how long he has been with you, my old boy was the same, had him half my life and he was a constant source of comfort and friendship for all his 21 years. Its not easy but sometimes the kindest thing we can do for them is to let them go. When Winston began to get bad and the fluids, appetite stimulants etc werent working, a friend said to me, better a day early than a day too late. Winston was failing, his body was failing and more complications arose. I felt it wasnt fair to put him through any more, he'd had a good life and I still miss him very very much. Most of us here understand your heartache and support what ever decision you come to for Hamish.
My youngster Eva (the Diva) knew Winston was leaving us. His last day with us she sat close to him, they never had done that before. With a sad smile Graham and I said Winston was giving her the keys to the cat flap. Cats dont greive in the same way we humans do, Misty may look for Hamish but mostly thats because something familiar has gone, the goal posts have changed, if you know what I mean. There may be some changes in Misty as she becomes top cat of the house hold but she will be fine. Why wouldnt she be? She has a very caring and loving dad like you by her side.
Elaine xxx
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Tiffy's mouth was very sore when I syringe fed him.
But the concistency of the puree is such that the cat doesnt have to crunch or bite hard. They just have to swallow.
With some food down he would start to feel better and being better hydrated will help with the toxins in the blood.
I know you dont want to hurt him but Im sure it would probably be ok to syringe feed. You are squirting it at the roof of the mouth so it wont really touch the sore parts of the gum.
I just have this feeling inside that makes me want to say this. Please dont think im mad.
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Others can advise but I wondered about Cimicat - Is there a change he would drink some to build his strength up - also would help with hydration. Just a thought.
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Poor Hamish and poor you :hug: It really is so hard to know what to do for the best sometimes, whatever decision you make there will always be 'what ifs'. I have everything crossed that the vet can give Hamish something to sort his mouth out and that he improves from there :hug:
I hope you don't mind me posting this poem, I sincerely hope it is not Hamish's time but the poem really sums up how hard it is to contemplate losing our lifelong companions.
The Greatest Gift
I always knew this time would come,
From the very instant our eyes first met.
How I loved you then! How I love you now!
I made a promise then, and I will keep that promise now...
You will not suffer from a pain that will not heal;
You will not know the loss of a life remembered, now gone.
It is for me alone to make this decision,
The price for the bright joy and pure laughter
You brought me during the time we shared.
I am the only one who can decide when it is time.
When my hope dies, and my fear rides high,
Just when I need you most, I must let you go.
It is for you alone to tell me when you are ready
For without your guidance, I will not know
When to lay my grief, my guilt, my anger
My sorrow and my selfish heart aside
And give you this last gift, this greatest gift.
Your eyes will speak to mine, and I will know.
The pain of this moment is excruciating.
Tears stream down my face in a river of sorrow.
And my heart drowns in a pool of grief.
For you have spoken and I have listened,
And unlike other decisions I have made
This one brings no relief...no comfort...no peace.
For if there´s one thing you´ve taught me,
If there´s only one thing I´ve learned...
Unconditional love has a condition after all,
I must be willing to let you go, when you speak to me
I must be willing to help you go, if you cannot go alone.
And I must accept my pain so you can be free of yours.
Go easily now, go quickly now,
Do not linger here, it is time for you to leave.
Go find your strength, go find your youth.
Go find the ones who've gone before you.
You are free to leave me now, free to let your spirit soar
Rest easy now, your pain will soon be gone.
I pray I will find comfort in my memories...
In the dark and lonely days ahead.
I cannot say I will not miss you, I cannot say I will not cry.
For only my tears can heal my broken heart.
But, I promise you this; as long as I live,
You will live, alive in my mind, forever in my heart.
So I give you this last gift, all I have left to give,
And this will be my greatest gift...sending you away.
It is the measure of my unconditional love...
For only the greatest love can say,
"Good-bye, go find the bridge, we'll meet again,
Loving you has been the greatest gift of all."
Forever and Always... Until Rainbow bridge....
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i am sorry that he doesn't seem to be doing better, i truly hope the vet can give him something to help his mouth, so you can see if he can rally round. Will be thinking of you.
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12:50 today, Hamish was put to rest.. He is in a Better Place now......
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:RIP: Little Hamish!!
Stuart you have done the right thing, as hard as it has been for you. Hamish is in a better place now and no longer suffering. :grouphug:
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Stuart,
I am very sorry to hear this. You've had to make one of the hardest decisions but Hamish is without pain now, and that is important.
Take care of yourself and we are here if you need support.
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Rest in peace little man.
Take care. Our thoughts are with you.
:hug:
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Sorry Stuart we know you did all you could for your Hamish including the final kindness.
RIP Hamish
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Stuart, I'm so sorry to hear about Hamish :hug: :hug:
RIP little one, play hard on the Bridge and enjoy chasing the butterflies
xx
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So sorry Stuart :(
R I P Hamish :Luv:
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Very sorry to hear about Hamish, you bravely did what was best for him, take care :hug:
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So sorry Stuart....you done everything in your power to make things right :hug: :hug: :hug:
RIP Hamish :( all our bridge babes will be waiting to help you over :Luv:
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I'm sorry to hear about Hamish, Stuart. You did everything you could for him. Letting them go is the final act of kindness we can do for them. RIP Hamish. Have fun at rainbow bridge.
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Sorry to hear about Hamish :hug: :hug:
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Stuart so very very sorry to head the sad news about Hamish.
As everyone has said making the decision is one of the hardest things we have to do as a pet owner but it is also the kindest thing we can do for our furbabes when the time is right.
We all understand how you must be feeling right now and we are here for you if you want us. I'm sure Misty will help you through this difficult time and vice versa.
RIP Hamish ... Play hard at the bridge baby. No more pain just fun and sunshine.
(http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p99/Fussy_furball/c05.jpg)
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Oh, I am so sorry, it is the hardest decision we have to make, but there comes a time when any keeping on is being done for us, not them. You have made a courageous decision, but a kind one. We are all thinking of you here.
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So very sorry Stuart xxx Hamish will always be with you, take comfort from knowing you always had HIS best interests at heart.
R.I.P. Hamish xxx
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http://www.purrsinourhearts.co.uk/index.php?topic=6825.0
Stuart above is a link to another section on here and it has a lovely poem about a loved pet that had recently passed away. I found it very touching and appropriate. It was put up by Helen and I think its lovely.
tammy
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So very sorry Stuart, a very hard decision to make but I am sure that Hamish will think you did right. :hug: :hug:
RIP Hamish, play hard on the Bridge and make lots of friends there.
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Sorry to hear the sad news, you really did give him the greatest gift :hug:
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I am so very sorry to hear this, he had a wonderful owner who did everything he could for him, including making that final decision, however hard. RIP little one.
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Dear Friends,
THANK YOU SO MUCH for your condolence and sympathy, it really is A great comfort to me.
It’s sad, but I felt a great burden had been lifted when Hamish was sent to the bridge.
I have been physically sick with worry these past few days over Hamish, but since He’s been released,
it feel’s as if a great weight has been lifted off of me, although Now I have a great huge hole in my life
and my heart is aching. I do know that with time, the aching will ease and the memories I have of Hamish’s
last few days will be pushed to the back of the mind, leaving only the good one’s.
The house seems very empty and quiet just now and the heartache is intense, as everywhere I go, I see
Hamish, sleeping on the bed, sitting on the window sill catching the early morning rays of the sun,
Watching His starling’s through the Window netting, and it was not uncommon for Hamish to decide to
wake you at 4am in the morning, because his food dish was empty. “ Hamish was always very Vocal and
would soon let you know there was no food in his dish “ as I write this I still think he is sleeping next door,
and I'm expecting him to come prancing through any Moment for some loveies and attention…… then I remember
I am full of guilt just now also, as it was 7 or 8 months ago that Hamish slowed down his food intake.
At the time I just put it down to Him being fussy. “ I forgot they grow Old “ But the vet had a Quick
look at his mouth after he went to the Bridge, and told me He had no Ulcers But had a molar that looked
as though it needed to be removed, restating that if he Had been put under for treatment it would have
probably killed him. But in Hindsight I should have taken him to the vet….
Misty seems to be ok but it is still early days yet, He was there when Hamish was sent to the Bridge,
But I don’t think he really understands that Hamish wont be coming back
In Hamish’s last few days He looked really miserable, and had stopped speaking to me when I came in
the room, he would just lie there with his eyes open. He was very unsteady on his feet and really weak.
Although I coaxed him to drink regularly, he was still not taking in enough fluids.
The Decision was made after having a long talk with the vet and looking at all the options. She felt that
Hamish would have done better if he did not have the complication of the sore mouth, which could not
be treated without risk of loosing him under the anaesthetic, because of his thyroid problem which was
affecting his heart rate. I asked her if we did put him through all this stress and discomfort, and He
survived the surgery, would he still have a quality of life and get better??
I was told that on top of all this he still had CRF which is a gradual disease and would never really get better.
When you separate “ loosing your Best Friend forever “ / “ Releasing them from pain and suffering “
You know. You must do what’s best for THEM, It is not an easy decision, but it’s one that has to be made….
I Do feel as though I Did the right thing. But it’s one of those situations. That we must all go through / been
through that leaves you in so much despair, for Me this is worse than loosing a Human Family member as they
can tell you they are not well and when it comes to their time, you accept it. Whereas our Furbabes cannot
tell you..If only they could speak!!….
I know Hamish has a better home now, is chasing his starling’s, eating, drinking and is happy.
I am missing Him terribly just now, and I know there will never be anyone quite like him. He was the most
easygoing, happy go lucky, laid back cat you could ever meet, in all the years I had him he never showed any
animosity, or lashed out in anger “ unlike another furbabe I could mention “ and I still remember one of my
close friends giving him the nickname “ BIG JESSIE “ cause that’s what he was. “Just a big Jessie”
I could go on and on about his character and tell you stories of some of the things he got up to,
but I would be here all week if I did
I am having his mortal remains cremated, so he can come home again. I don’t know if any of you will agree
with me on that “ as I personally don’t like cremation, and I would rather be buried “ But this way, when its
my time to go, I will have comfort in knowing that he is beside me and I will see him again…
So sorry for babbling again, but it helps to get these things off your chest
I will sign off just now “ as it is getting increasingly difficult to type with Misty sitting on my lap, trying to stop
my hand from typing..
But I will frequent this forum in the future, and You will hear from me again “unfortunately “
And again THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH for your Understanding and help at this sad time..
Kindest Regards to you all!! Stuart
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That was a really lovely and moving letter Stuart :'(
Look after yourself you will be in our thoughts :Luv:
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Thankyou Stuart for sharing Hamish with us and letting us into his world. I'm crying like a baby here, your words are very moving and straight from the heart.
We all know the pain and loss you feel right now, allow yourself to greive. I too had Winstons remains cremated and he will be with me when I go.
Sending you many :hug:
Elaine xxx
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It’s sad, but I felt a great burden had been lifted when Hamish was sent to the bridge.
I have been physically sick with worry these past few days over Hamish, but since He’s been released,
it feel’s as if a great weight has been lifted off of me, although Now I have a great huge hole in my life
and my heart is aching.
I am having his mortal remains cremated, so he can come home again. I don’t know if any of you will agree
with me on that
I felt that too Stuart, when Suzie went to sleep peacefully, I think its because you know they won't be suffering anymore, so that anxious feeling goes - just leaving the heartache you describe, and your'e right that will ease - in time.
I had Suzie cremated so she will always be with me.
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I felt just the same when Fluffy was put to sleep in May. Great releif but real pain too. You just have to keep remembering that that was the final act of kindness for Hamish from you and you have done it out of the great love you have for him. Do not dwell on what ifs - they will not change anything and hindsight is only helpful if you learn to move on.
You did the best you could and that is all that anyone can expect of you.
Take Care of yourself and Misty.
Love
tammy
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Thank you Stuart for that lovely post and we all know how hard it is and Hamish has touched us all. :hug: :hug:
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What a lovely post Stuart, I am glad that you felt you did the right thing, and that it was done in consultation with the vet. As someone who has had to see other people's cats go 'naturally' from kidney issues, thank you for being able to put his needs first, it really is the best thing for them, he was lucky to have had you. Dont feel guilty about his teeth, even if you had known, you might not have been able to do anything.
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Hamish came back home yesterday.
My Wife and I were invited to a barbeque at the weekend, and she asked me was I sure I wanted to go??
as she felt i was'nt ready for it, I said it would get me out of the house and it'll take my mind of Hamish.
It Did'nt :'(
And that night was when I Discovered, that I have true friends, All of them comforted and gave support
(considering they are all hairy biker's, even I was surprised !!)
I did'nt like the casket that was offered for Hamish's remain's, so I bought an ornament off of ebay and
with a little drop of paint, am now happy for His ashes to be placed.
I Still have Moment's and I know I always will, but I think I am now Begining to Accept That Hamish is
gone and IS in a Better place !! although I'm not quite ready to transfer the ashes atm.
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:hug: :hug:
We've all been there, Stuart. Letting them go is the hardest thing we ever have to face, but it's also the final act of love and some aren't so lucky... :'( :'(
And the hairy bikers I've come across have been some of the softest peeps I know. ;)
You know you've always got us on purrs... :Luv:
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:hug: :hug: :hug: Thinking of you :hug: :hug: :hug:
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One step at a time Stuart, I am glad your friends were supportive, there is nothing worse than hearing things like "it was only a cat". That just maddens me coz they are so much more to us than these kinds of people can ever imagine.
Thinking of you xxx
Elaine
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Well said Elaine :Luv:
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So very sorry Stuart, thinking of you xxx
RIP Hamish and play hard at the bridge sweetheart - send your Daddy a rainbow xxx
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A great tribute to Hamish. I hope Misty and you are doing OK. Just do everything in your own time. Great that you have understanding friends to support you :hug:
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Hamish, I hope your showing Misty around Rainbow bridge just now, I got His message He'd arrived.
and Please, for Me " No Fighting !!" That goes for the both of You !!
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There will be no time for fighting Stuart....to many butterflies to chase! :Luv: :hug: :hug:
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Good point, Thx Bazsmum :shy: