Purrs In Our Hearts - Cat Forum UK
Cat Health & Behaviour => Health & Behaviour General => Topic started by: PandaFi on July 31, 2007, 16:38:56 PM
-
Hiya guys! I need your help...my vets not open just now, but kitten will be going as soon as they do open. My little kitten wasn't eating properly, so as suggested, we gave her a little raw mince (her sister got the same) but she brought it back up about an hour ago, and has been excessively salivating ever since! She's also just falling asleep wherever she is(in her litter tray to begin with) until she wakens herself falling over. I'm really worried about her...mainly due to the salivating!! Please help!!
-
When do they open? Really sounds like little one needs checking over, even if you take her to a different practice.
-
Is the one you said was your neighbours? At 6 weeks she needs to be back with her mummy especially as shes not weaned yet.
-
You need to get this little one to the vets asap........if you don't, you are more than likely going to lose her :'( :'( Kittens go downhill so quickly and she really doesn't sound as if she's in a good state.......if your vets are closed, ring as an emergency or get her in elsewhere. Keeping everything crossed for her :wish:
-
at 6 weeks old she should still be with mum & goes for the rest of the litter...you will need to get into the vets NOW.. my 2 foster kittens nearly died at that age... DONT HANG ABOUT HERE GET TO THE VETS NOW
-
At 6 weeks of age she provbably doesnt know how to eat on her own - please get her to a vet now.
-
Re the raw mince.......I really wouldn't recommend giving anything raw at that age. At that age, she should be getting her mum's milk or if not possible because the idiot owner has parted with her, she should be getting KMR such as Cimicat or Lactol and also kitten food. What on earth were they doing parting with her when she wasn't even eating properly :mad2: :mad2: It's bad enough parting with her at 6 weeks and depriving her of her mum but this is even worse >:( I've not read the thread on her so don't know the full story but getting the jist on here, the people you got her off really want a good shaking :censored:
-
PandaFi is still showing as active online ....... if you are still on the site, please please take your little to a vet now, don't wait until later or it could be too late :(
-
Hey guys! Thanks for the quick reply! I know was very keen on taking a kitten on at six weeks! But I'd rather it came here than somewhere else! We've had her on Lactol...it was all she'd take..until the mince! We won't be doing that again. She seems to have perked a wee bit...went to play for a few minutes. Still...a vet opens at six...so she'll be going! Thanks guys!
-
the people you got her off really want a good shaking :censored:
The folk that take pups/kittens under 8 weeks old are just as bad as the breeders
-
a vet opens at six..
Thats 1 hour away.......1 of the foster kittens took ill very quickly with in half ahour & nearly died ...& your going to wait an hour
-
a vet opens at six..
Thats 1 hour away.......1 of the foster kittens took ill very quickly with in half ahour & nearly died ...& your going to wait an hour
I don't have a choice...it'd take me an hour to get to the emergency vets in this area anyway
-
The folk that take pups/kittens under 8 weeks old are just as bad as the breeders
I'm sure no harm was meant intentionally but if it was me in the same situation, I would have reserved the little ones and made sure they were kept with mum until THEY WERE READY AND NOT BEFORE!!
I know some of the posts seem harsh, but because of idiocy, this little one could die :'( :'( I'm pleased mum will be getting spayed, at least it won't happen again.
-
Oh PandaFi so sorry to hear about your kitten.
Regardless of age and how you came to get the kitten in your care you clearly care.
We're here to be supportive and help if we can.
-
The folk that take pups/kittens under 8 weeks old are just as bad as the breeders
I'm sure no harm was meant intentionally but if it was me in the same situation, I would have reserved the little ones and made sure they were kept with mum until THEY WERE READY AND NOT BEFORE!!
I know some of the posts seem harsh, but because of idiocy, this little one could die :'( :'( I'm pleased mum will be getting spayed, at least it won't happen again.
I understand your concerns, I really do. But it wasn't the type of breeder where you could reserve them. Still, I thank you for your help!
-
What kitten food have you tried her on? It may be worth adding a little warm water or some of the Lactol to some Whiskas kitten pate, and mash it up into a paste.......I also forgot to say, make sure this little one has access to water as well. Fingers crossed, she'll pull through.
I should add, I'm not having a go at you......it's the idiots who've got the mum cat :censored: But also, it's important to stress to owners that kittens should remain with their mum until they are at least 8 weeks old.
-
Hi
I'm abit confused and would definately still urge a vet visit, it was me who advised a tiny bit of raw mince as i also gave the kitten brand foods and a/d suggestions aswell, Mince is often given esp in those reluctant to wean in the breeders world and also i have that written in some of my veterinary type books somewhere. If this was "offered" and the kitten willingly took it it would not have caused the problems you describe. fresh raw foods shouldnt really cause a kitten any problems (think of what a feral mum will kill for her babies) although i'm wary of raw chicken.
How did she take it ? ie wolf it down (which for a baby at 6 wks who was avoiding solids i would be most surprised at) or did she properly chew it ?
Also on the original thread i was under the impression that ALL the babies were still with the mum although it was mentioned she was feeling stressed which was why kitten formula was suggested but i am not sure why the kittens have now been removed from their mother.
PS Mum will more than likely get pregnant again very shortly if she isnt already so advising your friend to spay asap would be a priority.
-
Hi
fresh raw foods shouldnt really cause a kitten any problems (think of what a feral mum will kill for her babies) although i'm wary of raw chicken.
In the wild, they wouldn't be catching a cow :scared: Raw foods if used, have to be very, very fresh and on a tummy that isn't used to it, I would think it's more likely to upset it so personally, I would only use kitten food or if you had to use raw, use something they would eat in the wild like rabbit. With this little one, I would say it's nothing to do with the mince but more likely to do with the fact it's not getting the nourishment off mum and when removed too early, especially if not eating, they are more likely to go downhill because their immune system drops as well.
-
just out of interest how much did this bsb want for the kittens
-
Original post http://www.chaptanservices.com/purrs/index.php?topic=6330.0 (http://www.chaptanservices.com/purrs/index.php?topic=6330.0)
I dont think the mince is the culprit either, it hasnt had long enough to do anything. I hope this little one is ok.
-
I think it should be fully checked with the vet thats for sure.
re the mince i agree they wouldnt catch a cow but it is a food that is given to lots and this is not a reported problem so unless it had somehow managed to inhale the solids i cant see it being that, and a 6 wk old is unlikely to inhale solids if that makes sense. I've seen it from a saucer of milk when they werent used to lapping (ie up the nose lol) or some one syringe feeding wrongly but always with liquids (and they didnt even salivate that much then either, more lots of coughing and sneezing)
i am wondering if it could have come into contact with anything...did you have anything on your finger tips / food/bowl ie cleaning stuff or the likes ?????
-
not being funny or anything but the solids wasnt placed inside the kittens mouth was it ?
-
Now I've seen the post, I'm confused as well :shify: When did you actually take the kitten? Reading the post from yesterday, it sounded like the "owner" was going to keep kittens together with mum and she was just a little concerned about her being too dependant on mum. Lynn, that was very sound advice, just a little disappointed, it wasn't followed :'( I agree with the point about salivating as well, this isn't normal unless the little one has been in contact with something else :'(
Are all the other kittens still with mum or have they got homes today as well?
Let us know how you get on with her, I feel sick with worry now :'(
-
Sorry confused too here !!!
Yesterday this kitten wasnt eating solids and still wanting Mum, how come it is away from Mum today ?
or am i getting things muddled up here
-
Re: Looking to Home a Kitten(s)
« Reply #48 on: July 24, 2007, 07:36:10 PM »
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
UPDATE!! Found a kittens!!!! Well two actually! My neighbours cat had kittens about six weeks ago, and we didn't know until today! So we picked two out today, and can get them in two weeks!!! Two little girls! They are so adorable! It wasn't a planned pregnancy, so the mummy cat is going to the vets soon! One kitten is kind of tabby, with white paws and chest, and the other is black and white. So name suggestions are welcomes!!!
So these kittens are 6 weeks old & you were picking them up in 2 weeks time making them 8 weeks....so WHY did you not wait 2 weeks
-
I think we should all wait and see how this little one gets on, but reading that has now given me a headache :brick:
-
Can we please concentrate on the fact that this little one is poorly, I think that's the most important thing at the moment...
-
Still...a vet opens at six.
Well its after 6 pm & your still here .
-
Hi guys, had a vet come out to see her...he said she'll be okay, just had a bit of a sore tummy. She's perked up somewhat since the vets been too! And to answer some of the things you've been saying...
The kittens were supposed to be with mum for a while longer, but because they "were" eating on their own, the "breeder" didn't want them around anymore. As for cost + £0. Kitten took mince of own accord...I would never have force fed a kitten. They are both on Lactol, so still getting nutrients, and other kitten is eating both wet and dry kitten foods.
-
I'm really pleased you got the vet out and that he thinks she'll be okay. What does he think caused the salivating?
-
I'm really pleased you got the vet out and that he thinks she'll be okay. What does he think caused the salivating?
He put it down to the fact she had been sick. I'm just happy that she's going to be okay!!! :)
-
I'm pleased as well :) Have you got any piccies of the little ones? And has he given you anything to give her?
-
Nah,he never gave her anything. Said that if she seemed to stay the same, or get worse over the next few hours to just give him a call. Don't have any pics on my computer but i'll get some uploaded tonight! :)
-
thats great news and panic over thankfully.
RR i can be logged into forums for days on end, if i only put my lappie on standby at night or leave it on during the day but i'm not necessarily even at home.
Its a great great pity the kittens couldnt stay with all the siblings and mum, even if they arent feeding from her its best for the socialisation and possibly even future behaviour for the rest of their lives, this we know is fact but if the breeder was trying to get rid basically it is best these 2 are now in the hands of someone who is caring and has just had the vet out :)
The kitten did eat the mince so its a good sign that it will take to solids, 6 wks isnt unusual for them to be reluctant so the lactol is the main food for it and should have as much as per instructions and solid food offered and allowed to eat of its own accord, water obviously should always be freely available.
-
dum dee dum de dum :innocent:
-
I'm surprised he didn't give her anything :Crazy: The fact she was very sleepy and falling over, I would be very concerned if any of mine went like that. Hopefully she'll go from strength to strength :Luv: Can't wait to see the piccies :waiting:
-
Pity i didnt have your vet when my 2 6 week old fosters needed the vets in emergency it would have saved me money, whats the vet practice that delt with you & ill pass it on to some folk that are down there it would save them money aswell
-
Pity i didnt have your vet when my 2 6 week old fosters needed the vets in emergency it would have saved me money, whats the vet practice that delt with you & ill pass it on to some folk that are down there it would save them money aswell
I don't actually know! It was my mum's friend's friend that is a vet somewhere down south, who was visiting, and helped us out!
-
RR i can be logged into forums for days on end, if i only put my lappie on standby at night or leave it on during the day but i'm not necessarily even at home.
yeah you can be logged on & if not active still show up as stationary but you can also see members either viewig, posting etc ...bit difficult doing this when 1 says 1 is going to the vets ?
-
yeah you can be logged on & if not active still show up as stationary but you can also see members either viewig, posting etc ...bit difficult doing this when 1 says 1 is going to the vets ?
That mystery is solved as the vet came out to visit :slap:
-
I don't actually know! It was my mum's friend's friend that is a vet somewhere down south, who was visiting, and helped us out!
oh right & im mother terrsa
-
RR i can be logged into forums for days on end, if i only put my lappie on standby at night or leave it on during the day but i'm not necessarily even at home.
yeah you can be logged on & if not active still show up as stationary but you can also see members either viewig, posting etc ...bit difficult doing this when 1 says 1 is going to the vets ?
Maybe people should read my posts, please. I had a vet out.
-
RR i can be logged into forums for days on end, if i only put my lappie on standby at night or leave it on during the day but i'm not necessarily even at home.
yeah you can be logged on & if not active still show up as stationary but you can also see members either viewig, posting etc ...bit difficult doing this when 1 says 1 is going to the vets ?
Panda has already explained that he/she managed to get a vet to come to the house. As I said before the main thing here is that the kitten is OK... They shouldn't have to explain themselves to anyone on here.
-
I don't actually know! It was my mum's friend's friend that is a vet somewhere down south, who was visiting, and helped us out!
oh right & im mother terrsa
What is your problem?
-
rr i dont think that was really a helpful posting, Panda is going to be taking some photos and uploading them later so you'll see for yourself the little one is ok,
My only concern would have been that this vet would not be carrying medical equipment or medications and would only have been able to carry out a very basic and limited examination, unless they holiday with their stethascope and thermometer etc in which case i personally might be inclined to go to the vets this evening to have a more thorough exam carried out.
the main thing is panda came on purrs and sought opinions and advise which showed obvious concern, those who dont care dont do that.
PS has the kittens got names or have a missed that bit :-:
-
I will be likely to check her out at my local vets in the morning, but I was happy with the quick examination he gave her tonight...to know she was in no trouble. It didn't even cross my mind that he wouldn't have all his equipment. Yeah, sorry, they are called Paws and Chloe! It was Paws that was a wee bit sick.
-
well at check with your proper vet tomorrow will be good, they can also advise / dispense all the correct wormer etc that the babies should really have as worms could maybe exacerbate vomiting if they have a burden in the gut.
At the end of the day it will give peace of mind really to yourself that they are in good condition, doesnt sound the mums owner is that clued up are fantastic so they quite possibley werent given the best of attention.
Let us know how you get on and we'll look forward to seeing paws and chloe :Luv:
-
sorry folks but i can spot a windup post a mile off & it annoys me that others are taken in by it...yes she can post photos on here but whos to say its hers or sotheing that she has googled for...
-
Sorry Mags, but regardless of how any of us think, we have to take each post seriously.......the posts on this thread could help to save another kitten's life which I've already explained.
-
sorry folks but i can spot a windup post a mile off & it annoys me that others are taken in by it...yes she can post photos on here but whos to say its hers or sotheing that she has googled for...
A windup?? You want me to prove you wrong! Add me to msn (removed by mod) and I'll turn my webcam on for you? Would that help? Or if you want...I'll take a pic of them with me in it!!!! Actually...why the heck do I need to prove myself to you. I am grateful to everyone else who actually has listened to me, and helped me! To you, thank you
-
Completely agree Dawn, I remember when you posted terribly worried about your foster kittens RR. How would you have felt if no-one replied because they thought it was a 'wind up' or if they questioned everything you said.
-
Panda, you don't have to prove yourself to anyone, the main thing is the kittens fine and whatever happens, we are here to help and give advice if we can.
-
Calm down folks... there's loads of us mods on at the moment
-
PandaFi
Is Paws drinking okay? It must have been scarey when he was ill. I'm glad he's feeling better now. Might be worth a visit to your own vet as it's always helps to have these things on record.
-
Panda we unfortunately do get wind ups occasionally and whilst that is no excuse and this is not the norm esp with new members such as yourself i hope you will understand as a cat lover why some people can get emotional and find it hard to keep their opinions when they have perhaps been involved in such wind ups or untruths in the past.
however i hope you will stay with us as we actually have a great laugh on here and more so learn lots and lots of important and interesting information, those with little or lots of experience and knowledge, we all learn valuble bits n bobs so please stay on board :Luv:
-
Paws seems to be drinking well, yeah. Whenever her sister goes to the bowl, so does she!
-
Panda we unfortunately do get wind ups occasionally and whilst that is no excuse and this is not the norm esp with new members such as yourself i hope you will understand as a cat lover why some people can get emotional and find it hard to keep their opinions when they have perhaps been involved in such wind ups or untruths in the past.
however i hope you will stay with us as we actually have a great laugh on here and more so learn lots and lots of important and interesting information, those with little or lots of experience and knowledge, we all learn valuble bits n bobs so please stay on board :Luv:
Thank you, I will stay on the board. I just get quite emotional at how someone could think I was making up something like my two little babies! I don't understand how anyone could make up such a thing.
-
Thank you, I will stay on the board. I just get quite emotional at how someone could think I was making up something like my two little babies! I don't understand how anyone could make up such a thing.
You get it on the internet so just dont read what you dont need to hear ;D
Now where are these photos :waiting:
-
I'm glad that Paws is ok. Poor babe being taken away from mum so soon. I look forward to pics of him and his sister ;D
-
I too am much relieved that Paws is OK. Please keep us posted, PandaFi.
-
Oh PandaFi so pleased to hear that your kitten is a little bit better.
I know what it is like to have a poorly
kitten :luck:
-
I remember when you posted terribly worried about your foster kittens RR. .
Thats true i did ,, at that time when i posted 1 was at the vets on emmerency treatment &the other was taken back to the rescues vet for emmergency treatment they wernt here when i posted thats the difference here i spent the rest of the night crying about them
Donst matter what i say ....im out of here iv seen to many windups
-
Donst matter what i say ....im out of here iv seen to many windups
Why dont really tend to get any wind ups on here - Thank God !
(Not like "give us a home" - ah "jackie")
Sometimes on here it is easy to jump to conclusions though but it is best to bite ya tongue and say nothing rather than upset people, especially as you might be wrong.
This is a really friendly board and trouble doesnt often start, so dont go, stay and enjoy this forum
-
RR, the term you're fishing for is 'trolls'. The internet is full of them. I could point you to forums so thick with them, sometimes I think the whole forum has only 2 real members - me and 700 clones of the same bloke! :evillaugh:
The only thing we can do in any circumstance is take each post at face value. Let everyone have the benefit of trust until such time as they prove beyond doubt they're insane. :evillaugh: :evillaugh:
We are very, very lucky here. I've only had one occasion when I was upset by one post directed at me. Apart from that, everyone and everything is lovely. :Luv: There's a golden mine field of help, support and advice in this forum. If one person asks a question, potentially dozens benefit from the answers. :sneaky:
-
Goodness after my last post I boarded a flight home. Next thing I know there's heaps of updates!!
Great to hear Paws is on the mend PandaFi.
Pleased to see thread is back on track ;)
-
(http://www.psych.squax.com/kitties.jpg) Hope this pic works!! It's the only one I have been able to upload so far! The black and white one is Paws, the more tabby one is Chloe
-
Ah there look really sweet.
Let us know how you get on at the vets tomorrow. I would take both kittens and get them both checked over as they are so young.
I would personally carry on with the Lactol milk....mine were on it for quiet a while as their Mum couldnt feed them
-
Glad Paws seems to be doing well and hope for an update after you take him to your vet in the morning ;)
They are adorable!
Paws' eyes are really prominant in that picture.
-
Beautiful babes PandFi and glad Paws is on the mend :)
-
They are adorable - :luck: with them :hug:
-
cute, i thought paws was going to be blk & white lol dont know why but i wasnt sure what chloe would look like, both very sweet.
Michelle is right, keep them on the kitten formula for as long as they will take it which could be another 6 wks, remember kitten milk you get in cartons from supermarket isnt the same and wont give them the proper nutrition, its just a treat but some folk think its the real thing.
-
Thanks guys! I know...I love them to bits! I'll try and get another few (better) pics up tomorrow! Yep...I've got them on lactol, so i think they'll be staying on that! :)
-
Am glad to hear they are a lot better, and that you will be taking them to the vet in the morning.
-
How did it go at the vet, PandaFi? Hope all is well.
-
Wow, loads of updates and piccies ....... I blame my o/h for sitting on the computer at home all night :innocent:
Glad to hear you managed to get a vet to see Paws last night, and agree it would be an idea to get both of them to see the vets today if you can, just for a check-up and get advise on worming etc as others have already said.
Look forward to more piccies soon too :Luv:
-
I'm glad your kitten is okay. I thought she might have infectious enteritis, which is deadly and kills kittens and adult cats very quickly, though most adults are vaccinated for this.
Having had experience of home vet visits, I know that they're very expensive. This may be a cause of the cynicism of some members here. It's cheaper and quicker to take a cat to the vet surgery, where they have all the equipment and medication needed. Did this vet charge you? If so, I'd love to know what a vet visit costs these days, as it's been a while since I've thought this wise, so mine usually get shoved into a taxi.
Good luck with the little ones. If something like this happens again, go to your vet straight away. Kittens die quickly if poorly. From my own experience I'd avoid out of hours vets if your vet uses the Vets Now service. But go as soon as the vet opens. Do you have a regular vet? Your kittens are going to need his/her services soon - vaccinations, spaying, worming etc. And be prepared for the cost!!!!
-
Hippy it wasnt panda's vet who came out but a vet on holiday who is a friend of a friend type of thing, There wouldnt have been much they could have done had urgent treatment been required but i would imagine they would have advised "get to the surgery" asap had that been necessary.
Panda is having them checked over with her own vet today i think it was or atleast very shortly :)
-
My mum took the kitties to the vets today! :) He checked them both over, and said that they were looking well, very energetic. Agreed that we will start worming them next week, and have arranged to go back in three weeks for their first vaccinations. The expense begins! Got another pic of them! --> (http://www.psych.squax.com/Paws.jpg) (http://www.psych.squax.com/Chloe.jpg)
-
My vet is a home visit vet. That's her business, she only operates out of a surgery once a week as a consult, but otherwise her van is housed with what she needs. The price is reasonable, even for London prices, as she will speak to you first via phone and if she feels based on symptom a surgery visit is needed she will say so and meet you there. It all depends on the vet, the practice they run etc.
I would be hesitant to knock home visits. Circumstances dictate price I am sure.
-
Ruth, this is a new thing for me - home visits. I'm sure it's an advance in service provision but we haven't got anything like that here to my knowledge.
It's odd though, because this is new and the practice of home visits for humans is all but dead. We have to call EKDOC if we are ill out of hours and we're usually told to bring the patient to either Kent and Canterbury hospital, or QEQM Margate. Try asking the GP to visit you at home and see what response you get. :tired:
I get a sense of you get what you pay for, though. How much is a routine consultation with these flying vets? :innocent:
-
Gotta be honest if one of mine was ill price wouldnt come into it.
Wether it be visit to vet, emergency vet or home visit vet it wouldnt matter to me as long as they were seen.
Glad kitten is better today - gosh they do look tiny dont they but very cute
The person you got them from, is she going to spay her female cat now ?
-
Thanks. Yeah, she was going to get it neutered after the kittens were all away from the mummy, and could cope without her...so she might have been done by now, if not should be soon! *fingers crossed*
-
sorry panda, when exactly did all the kittens come away from her ? i thought after all the confusion you took them 2 days ago ?
-
Julie, £29 for consult. Plus travel time and as she only operates out of certain postcodes its always no more than £45 for the visit. She only chsrges me what the lab charges her for blood work etc so she doesn't mark up the price to make a profit. Since the vet on the next block charges £40 per consult and he's awful, I would rather pay my vet to visit me at home, no carrier stress for Lexy and my piece of mind.
Edite: and yes I do get what I pay for. Caroline is fabulous.
-
sorry panda, when exactly did all the kittens come away from her ? i thought after all the confusion you took them 2 days ago ?
I did...I got them on Monday
-
theres definately a need for vets like her all over ruth..think of pensioners who have 2 or more cats getting down for yearly vaccs :Crazy:
In the case of severe illness or emergency it makes sense most vets will still strongly urge if not demand you travel to the surgery ALL equipment is there that they might need and most of the meds, there is only so much a vet can safely carry around in his emergency case.
If i lived in a large city i'd probably be looking into the possiblity of that type of work (mobile) for the minor things that alot of folk post on here they have difficultys with (with the exception of dematts :evillaugh: )
-
and were the rest of the litter being rehomed on monday aswell or had they already gone or have since gone ?
I dont think the cat will have been spayed within 48 hrs, which is most unfortunate.
-
I think there was still one to be rehomed...but someone was due to come and get her. Hopefully she'll get neutered soon!
-
Wether it be visit to vet, emergency vet or home visit vet it wouldnt matter to me as long as they were seen.
I recently paid £130 just to walk through the door of the Vets Now emergency service, only to be told that Polly had had a stroke and should be pts!
I took her to my regular vet the following day. He said she hadn't had a stroke, but had vestibular disease. She's fine now.
It's not the cost of Vets Now that I mind, but their lack of skill, which is why I wouldn't use an emergency vet again.
Years ago, when vets did night time home visits they charged an arm and a leg for it. It's been about 20 years since I've considered this, so have no idea whether this is even available now (in Birmingham).
-
ooh that is expensive HippyKitty. When I had to take my three boys to the emergency vets back in January they charged 80 quid for the consultation albeit by the time they had administered various injections (my cats were being sick) I was over two hundred quid down - thank goodness for pet insurance!
Like others on here though I agree you cannot put a price on your babies health.
Glad to hear the little kittens are doing better, they are lovely :Luv:
-
How are the kittens doing Panda?
-
It's not the cost of Vets Now that I mind, but their lack of skill, which is why I wouldn't use an emergency vet again.
Have you taken further action yet?
-
Have been giving them a chance to get back to me, Ela, but I think they've had long enough now, so will email them with another enquiry. I'll give them a week to reply, then try to take this further.
Polly's her old self again. Thank goodness I ignored him! :P