Purrs In Our Hearts - Cat Forum UK
Cat Health & Behaviour => Health & Behaviour General => Topic started by: Arcanegirl on May 25, 2013, 19:01:06 PM
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Hiya, we are in the process of introducing a male 3 month old kitten to our 4.5 year old cat.
So far we have setup our bedroom for baine (the kitten) and he is in there whilst dharma (cat) is roaming around.
When dharma sleeps in the other bedroom I have shut the door and let baine out for a wander and will do the same again tonight when dharma goes outside. Is this okay?
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Letting the kitten explore the house while the resident cat is away is a nice idea, it will be good for you to supervise him too.
They would both benefit from this, because his scent will become familiar to your current cat, and vice versa, and
he will be more confident of the local hiding and climbing places if he gets scared when you decide to let them meet.
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Great, he seems very curious and already happy with us humans. He was first with a friend of mine (we toook him in) so he already knew me.
How many days should I keep this up before attempting the next stage? And any other tips for us to help this become successful?
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Great, he seems very curious and already happy with us humans. He was first with a friend of mine (we toook him in) so he already knew me.
How many days should I keep this up before attempting the next stage? And any other tips for us to help this become successful?
Sorry for the essay!!!!
Different people suggest different things, so you might get a variation of answers really.
For me, I have never had to go more than two days before introducing cats, but for others, they have gone through a week,
or even two or three weeks of careful meticulous scent spreading and integration routines, which have sometimes been VERY necessary.
It all depends on the specific cats, their body language, their ages, sexual status, their willingness to adapt to change.. quite a few things.
In my experience, kittens do not generally need as much 'separation time' as adult cats.
Your resident cat should not really see the kitten as a threat to her status, especially if he is smaller, but obviously he is still on 'her turf',
and it will take time, no matter when you decide they are ready to be introduced.
You haven't said whether he is neutered or not?
This can sometimes have an effect on their temperaments too. ;)
You could take a moment to see if they are ready now, without causing any problems to them.
The thing is, you simply won't know unless you try it out, every cat meeting is different, just as every human meeting is different!
When you are ready to let them 'meet' but not be officially 'introduced', you can put the kitten in a crate or cat carrier in a mutual room,
and let her come in to investigate him.
IF it goes wrong, he will be very safe, and you can always remove her and keep them apart as normal, trying again in two days or so, with constant scent spreading, and room switching.
IF you are not ready to do this, which is perfectly fine, you could spread it out over a few days, popping the kitten into a different room for a few hours a day (or night) and if the room the boy stays in is comfortable, feed/play/sleep with your resident cat IN his room while he's away.
So the smells of him are associated with AMAZING things she likes to do!
After the crate Intro, when you DO decide to introduce them:
Remember some hissing, tail puffing and swiping are all perfectly natural first responses.
She needs to tell him who's boss! That's just how it is.
Always watch your kitties body language, check for signs of actual aggression and fear.
Have a towel ready JUST in case it turns into a fight, but don't expect there to be one, just r.e.l.a.x!
Remember that while you do these things with your cats, you must remain in a nice calm state. Your attitude is what the cats will
look to for confirmation while they assess each other. You must reassure the new kitty that he is somewhere safe and loved, and reassure your resident kitty that she is still 'top dog'.
To make this go as smoothly as possible, try to give the most care to your resident cat, she is the one who needs to accept this new kitten,
feed her, pet her and play with her, give her priority to show that things will not change between you and her.
Both cats should fall in to place once more, once resident cat is happy!
Praise her when she presents herself positively to him, and to you.
But do not scold her if she becomes to stressed or aggressive, simply remove her to a different room and let her out after 20 minutes or so, when she's calmer.
Patience, calm state and vigilance are all key.
It should pay off in the end.
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Great reply thank you! Before we had the rooms sorted there was a brief period where they were both out, there was hissing and a little swipe from the resident cat but no more than that. You have answered my next question of what to expect.
He isn't neutered just now, I'm not sure what the minimum age he needs to be to do that, he is 3 months old. Circumstances are he came from a friend of mine who wasn't able to keep him. I have intentions to call the vets on Monday to discuss what we need to do.
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You can neuter from 15 weeks, but ultimately yeah.. it all depends on your vets decision, but personally I would leave it until he is 5 months old.
Just reaching/about to reach maturity.
My boy Moshi isn't neutered, he's 9 months old (rescue). But need to arrange for that next week.
Unless your female cat isn't spayed? = In which case, as soon as your vet sees reasonable! ;)
If there was minimal swiping/hissing in the beginning, she may just see him as more of an annoyance than a threat,
which is somewhat better! ;D
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Hi Arcanegirl, sounds like you are doing a pretty good job with the introduction. I had to do this last year when we had Dotty who was of a similar age to Baine and Blue was 3 yrs old. It took us 3 days to get them together but kept introducing them both through slightly open doors just so they can see one another but could not attack. Dotty was a rescue and came from a fosterer who had multiple cats and a dog so she was quite brave when Blue saw her and it was blue who did the pulling faces and hissing thing. But after 3 days they were inseparable and are still, so my advice is to keep doing what you are doing, they will be fine and soon you too will be having wacky races everyday. :rofl: :rofl:
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Baine is definitely not scared to try and go up! He's so friendly already.
How long should I expect the hissing/swiping stage to last for? And is it normal for one to go hide during this process?
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Who is hiding? Is it Dharma? As Blue who was 3 at the time hide in the bedroom and would not eat for 2 days when Dotty arrived as she would cry if left alone and this really freaked Blue out. I lived with Dotty in the living room and my hubby with Blue in the bedroom, it was so upsetting for us as we thought he would never accept Dotty and we would have to return her. All you can do really is reassure them both but as said before I think it's all down to time and patience. :hug:
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Yea Dharma hid after the brief encounter with baine. Baine was happy to creep up to her but she would hiss and swipe then back away. Once we split them and baine into his room dharma hid for a while then carried on as normal
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She will come round, it's all down to scent has well. Try swapping their beds so she can have a good sniff of Baine because once she is used to his scent she will be ok with him. Blue used to hiss at Dotty through the door when I opened it slightly just so they could see one another, then we progressed to me holding Dotty and my hubby holding Blue and introducing them and then we went onto supervising them in a room together to see what happened. I don't think Dharma would hurt Baine I just think she is warning him by saying I'm not ready to accept you yet Tiny.... ;D ;D
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Hiding isn't a major problem, it's a much better outcome than aggression.
She is doing the cat equivalent of 'sulking', so give her a chance to get through it, and to tell him that it's her house.
I would not see this as a reason to keep them separated, after all you need to give her time to come out and explore him,
not remove him every time she hides. Because she will assume he's just left the house.
If his play is too much for her, she needs to tell him, so that he understands when to back off.
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The separation was because I had to go out briefly, I've spent the rest of the evening taking turns with them roaming about. Today I will see how they go once I know I will e at home for the rest of the day.
Thanks for your help guys :)
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We now have growling along with the hissing, baine is still getting too much for her I think. Is the growling still normal or heading to aggressive?
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Growling is just fine, perfectly natural response for her.
After all, he must be very annoying! ;)
Don't correct it, just keep checking her body language to make sure there's no underlying issue.
Ultimately, give her a 10 minute break from him every so often, and take him into another room, either leave him for a while
or wear him out a bit with some play.
Aggression signs are excessive staring, threatening posture, ears flat back against the head, yowling (like a long disturbing meow/howl/screeching) and puffy tail.
Puffy tail and Growling do not usually lead to aggression, the ears, threatening posture and staring are the biggest giveaways.
She may swipe him, a swipe is very good behaviour for her at the moment, she's just telling him 'back off, I'm not in the mood'.
If she lunges for him and grabs him, THIS is aggressive behaviour, and they need to be separated again before it escalates.
Just remember to stay calm, and to observe.
Give her reassurance only if she comes to you for it.
If she has a problem with his pestering, she will let him know.
Unfortunately it's one of those things that will occur no matter how long you take before introducing them, boisterous cats will need putting in place eventually, either today, or next week.
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You can try a couple of things to get them to bond. Feed them together in the same room but away from one another but still within view of each other and if Dharma likes to play with toys get some of her favourite toys and play with them both. The toys will defuse any tension she may have towards Baine. I have to do this sometimes with Blue and Dotty as Blue can get a bit rough sometimes when they are playing. ;D
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try a couple of things to get them to bond. Feed them together in the same room but away from one another but still within view of each other and if Dharma likes to play with toys get some of her favourite toys and play with them both. The toys will defuse any tension she may have towards Baine. I have to do this sometimes with Blue and Dotty as Blue can get a bit rough sometimes when they are playing. ;D
Yuki is like that too. :Crazy:
When she plays with Moshi she gets quite loud and her whole body goes puffy.
And Mosh just bats her on the head as if to say 'put them hormones away, woman'.
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Sometimes it's just the temperament of the cat as Blue is a neutered male Siamese and is Top Cat believe me in our house....Little monkey but can be the most loving cat ever to both us and Dotty...I see Reebz you have an Egyptian Mau....Beautiful too..... :Luv2:
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Another qu sorry!
When dharma runs off to another room, baine follows her. Do I still leave them to it? Now i type I guess she needs to tell him to leave her be and stop following?
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I think I'd follow them too just incase it turns nasty. Dharma will put Baine in his place but its how hard she does so which can be the problem because you don't want Baine to be frightened of Dharma as this can ruin the relationship before it's begun.... How long have you had Baine? Also are you a fan of Lost and Batman by any chance?.... :rofl: :rofl:
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Today is day two so I know it's still very early days.
Nope not me lol, baine was his given name by my friend and we kept it as she still visits every week and I didn't feel right to change it.....or he would have been Greg (dharma and Greg)
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I think I prefer Greg as Baine was the baddie :naughty: in the latest batman film. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: or maybe your friend knows something you don't... :rofl: :rofl: Day 2 and no major scraps, you're on the right path......Good luck and keep us updated with their progress... :Luv: :Luv:
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I will do, thank you for your help :)
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As Dottyy said, day 2 without a fight is a good sign. :)
Just going to take time. Remember to provide play for him, agitated kittens are the MOST annoying.
And thank you Dottyy, i do love Maus :)
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My eldest son is doing a good job with helping with playtime lol.
Baine has been out and Dharm is sleeping in the kids bedroom, I'm assuming having a sulk though baine keeps tryi to go into that room
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(http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f328/karoline1246/null.jpg)
Piccie update lol
Dharma has her ears back? She still growls but she is somewhat tolerating bane at this distance, just if he goes closer she really doesn't like
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Ah yes, the ears back is a difficult one. She's clearly VERY uncomfortable with him being near her.
However her body language is not really aggressive, she's pretty irritated, but not half as irritated as she is nervous.
She seems to lack confidence in herself, and feels as though she's being threatened in her household.
Trouble with kittens is that they REALLY don't read or display body language well at all!
This is what they learn through other cats as they grow up, and as they become adults.
In this picture, the fact that he is facing her front on and staring is quite intimidating to her,
that and he is sat between her and a member of her family, your boy.
Try not to let your children (or yourself) be behind the newcomer, because this will be threatening to her.
But also not behind her, because she may feel that you also don't like this newcomer, and may lash out at him.
Try to remain on mutual ground, not favouring either cat.
When she calms down, you can begin to show her some great positive attention.
He's very curious isn't he! Not very bright though, bless him. :doh:
Persevere! It will be a bit iffy for a while, but see how it goes.
Don't forget to separate them tonight!
As mentioned somewhere in the thread, try feeding them breakfast in the same room, but on opposite sides.
Give it time. Go about your business in the room as normal.
I wish you the very best of luck!
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Glad I posted that picture, a lot of info there I hadn't even considered!
She goes out at night so they are separated, another go tomorrow:)
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Dharma is certainly miffed and Baine looks a proper little monkey. He looks quite big for 12 weeks on the photo. Are you sure he isn't older? This could be a possible cause of his interest in Dharma as he may be reaching maturity and needs neutering. Can you see any little conkers or his wee smelly? :hug:
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Lol at the choice of words. I see the conkers but nothing else.
My friend said he was 7 weeks when she got him and he was teacup sized then (I saw him the day after he came home)
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Today baine has had run of the place since we've been in all day. Dharma still isn't impressed but its still just hissing and growling, nothing more. She had retreated to one of the bedrooms and having a snooze in there as she normally would
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Bless little Dharma for retreating....I'm glad you liked my phrasing, I didn't really know what else to call them...Ha Ha. With Baine having visible conkers, it may be wise just to have a quick check up at the vets just in case he is ready as it will calm him down a bit and will help Dharma feel less intimidated as she will sense that he is un-neutered. :hug: :hug:
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Progress is being made
(http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f328/karoline1246/51c55f97dde3b724e867083c010298b5.jpg)
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That looks promising!
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That's certainly progress! You're doing a fantastic job, keep it up. :Luv2:
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Dharma still isnt a fan, Baine still keeps following her about. I think Dharma feels like she is running out of hiding places as Baine is in most of them.
We have a trip to the vets with Baine tomorrow to vaccinate and discuss neutering and chipping
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I've seen your picture of them feeding together which is positive. It can take weeks sometimes for things to settle and with Baine being on the big side for a 12 week old kitten Dharma is bound to feel intimidated abit, I can see him being a big cat. Another thing you can try is a pet remedy diffuser or Feliway which gives off chill pheromones to calm stressful, nervous situations. I have one for our Blue as he went through a bit of loopy stage when we had an un-neutered tom cat coming around, he became really nasty and attacked me quite a few times as he could smell the visitor who used to spray outside and thought I was the intruder I think. I do think Baine may need neutering which will be a good thing all round. ;D
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IVe heard about the diffusers, I will give it a few weeks and see how things progress before seeing if we need one. Im trying to provide more places for Dharma to go. Any suggestions would be welcome :shy:
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There've been a lot of complaints on some review websites that the Feliway/Diffusers reallllyyyy stink the house out, but if you can put up with the smell, they're probably worth trying out.
The problem with providing more hiding places will be that Baine will probably inhabit those too.
Do they still have their own sleeping rooms?
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Yes and no...the biggest problem is we dont have many rooms. Baine was put into our bedroom as that was the easiest room to seperate him at the start. Dharma goes out overnight and during the day will go sleep in the kids room, she used to sleep in our room on our bed but hasnt gone back there since Baine moved in.
Baine is also sleeping in the kids room overnight...or trying to, my son isnt a fan of a cat at his feet lol. At the moment when Dharma goes into the kids room, Baine follows her still.
Ive made a little setup underneath one of the beds to see if she will take to that.
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The Diffusers do smell a bit like sweaty feet but you get used to it, but believe me they do really work wonders, I wouldn't be without mine..... :wow:
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I don't notice a smell from the Feliway at all - unless I have been blaming Mr S unfairly :rofl:
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Yes and no...the biggest problem is we dont have many rooms. Baine was put into our bedroom as that was the easiest room to seperate him at the start. Dharma goes out overnight and during the day will go sleep in the kids room, she used to sleep in our room on our bed but hasnt gone back there since Baine moved in.
Baine is also sleeping in the kids room overnight...or trying to, my son isnt a fan of a cat at his feet lol. At the moment when Dharma goes into the kids room, Baine follows her still.
Ive made a little setup underneath one of the beds to see if she will take to that.
That sounds kind of like my house, not many rooms.
When Mosh arrived we had to section off the bedroom from Yuki, which left her the lounge and kitchen, as we have no kitchen door.
But the rodents are in the lounge, so one of us had to sleep in the lounge to make sure she didn't get herself into trouble.
But luckily for us they got on so fast, that the arrangement was only necessary for three nights.
I don't know what we would have done if they'd needed longer to get along. :scared:
She goes out during the night but is home in the day?
That's quite interesting, and also a positive sign that she still considers your house her home, even with the mini intruder slinking about.
Boxes are a good idea, plus keeping lots of cat toys on the floor to distract him from bothering her.
What toys do you use?
I don't notice a smell from the Feliway at all - unless I have been blaming Mr S unfairly :rofl:
Poor Mr S!
Yes, I was thinking about Feliway.. but my house it quite small, and the smell would soon fill it. :rofl:
That and I already have my own 'smelly feet' producer back there. *points to unsuspecting partner on couch*
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I thought the same with her coming back still, very thankful she does!
We have all sorts, balls, the little mice, a stick with the string toy on, cat dancer.
I guess it's just waiting then for things to fully settle down, and hopefully with some balls removal that'll help too.
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I thought the same with her coming back still, very thankful she does!
We have all sorts, balls, the little mice, a stick with the string toy on, cat dancer.
I guess it's just waiting then for things to fully settle down, and hopefully with some balls removal that'll help too.
Haha, 'balls removal' :naughty:
Well, the ball removal would certainly stop him from other less pleasant things in his teen/early adult-hood, like mounting, spraying, being toooo manly, and such.
But unfortunately his behaviour could allllll just be 'kitten related'!
He's just at that age where he'll get on everyone's nerves, and drive Dharma batty until he grows out of it. :rofl:
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We took Baine to the vets yesterday and all went well. He had his first set of vaccs and a general check over. He is the age he should be, vet confirmed hes going to be a big kitty!
Balls arent fully descended yet and advises 5 months to get him neutered but will also check again when we go back in 3 weeks time.
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So glad everything went well at the vets. He's just being a little monkey then..... :naughty: :naughty: I guess he just wants someone to play with and he thinks Dharma does to.... How are things with Dharma is she finding it any better? :hug:
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She still growls when he comes near her. As long as she's asleep and he's left her alone then things are fine but they are far from pals yet.
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Well I suppose it's only been a week has it? These things just take time, some longer than others and if Dharma has been the only cat in your home then it will take longer I guess. I was probably lucky as Blue had been with Dixie before we had Dotty and Dixie was a very placid cat anyway and didn't bother at all when Blue arrived as a small kitten. I do think it's harder because of Baine's size as he is a very big 12 week old, the biggest I've seen I think unless the photo is a bit deceiving...... :shocked: :hug:
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Another picture update, though shortly after this bane jumped on top of dharma and tried to nip her
(http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f328/karoline1246/0be1c0e36b5f66481b43c927e5d7d42f.jpg)
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What a lovely pic. Dharma is the spitting image of Dixie, my old cat who is no longer with us..little love. Did baine jump on her and grab the scruff of her neck? If so I think these are his conkers kicking in...hmmm little monkey... :naughty:
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Yep I think that's right where he got her. Will be counting those weeks for the vet to recheck the conkers then!
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That's some great success, they've come a long way in a short time.
The body language is excellent, not as relaxed as could be, but certainly pretty comfortable/content.
You've done a great job, and it certainly shows!
Haha, males don't usually 'pounce' when they want to get lucky, usually they just slide on over. :evillaugh:
I think he's a bit early for that!
Thanks for the update!
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Out of curiosity, what's the body language you see?
And an off this topic question, we have a huge litter box which is usually dharmas but because she goes outside she only uses it a handful of times in a week, there is a separate tray for bane but because of the kids I would rather he used the big covered one. Can they share the big litter box or am I asking for disaster? We definitely don't have room for two hooded boxes
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Well, Dharma has her ears up and forward, this signifies that she's not tense with him being so close.
Also, her paws are under her body, not out in front of her, as if she might need to defend herself or dash away.
Her tail is curled to her body, not straight behind her. The tail curled along the side that Baine is on could mean that shes still not entirely comfortable, or could just be how she prefers to have it.
Baines posture is non threatening, and quite expectant and playful. His ears again are up, and that he can afford to look away from her, means that he is not fearful. But he is up on his paws, which is still guarded, but also playful.
At the distance they are from each other, this is overall very good.
I hope this helps.
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Very insightful thank you!
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You're welcome. I studied feline and canine behaviour for a few years a while back.
So if you need help in future I'm always around for advice. :)
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A little update two months later....
We found out Bane is a little bit older than orginally thought and old enough to get neutered so we got him booked in right away. Its been a good few weeks now and he has settled down loads, there are much less fights now. Just the occasional growl from Dharma but not near as much as she used to do.
Also since the heatwave we had, Dharma has been going out for days at a time....im not sure if this is related or not. Bane was neutered during the heatwave. She still continues to be away even as the weather has cooled considerably.
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I am glad that things are improving for you ;D
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Hey, glad to see everything is going ok......I think cats are a bit like us when the sun is out and it gets warmer, we have to get as much of it as possible because it's so rare in this country.... :wow: :rofl:
I'm sure Dharma will be back inside when the weather changes..... ;)