Purrs In Our Hearts - Cat Forum UK
Cat Health & Behaviour => Health & Behaviour General => Topic started by: fluffybunny on December 20, 2012, 23:38:47 PM
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Hello! Milly had her first acupuncture session for her arthritis today, thought it warranted a new thread so it didn't get lost in discussions about metacam and stuff!
I'm really delighted with how it went. I thought Milly would tolerate it well as she is a very tactile cat, and she was the perfect patient. She had about 10 needles today over about half an hour, the vet said it's best to start gently in case she is one of the 10%-ish who hyper-react, so next time she will have the full works. She didn't even notice when most of the needles went in, there was one particularly sore point that she reacted to a little when it was first inserted, but was fine after that.
I was very impressed with the vet, she explained everything to me as she was doing it, including potential risks, the sort of response I am likely to see etc. She feels down the sides of her spine to find the stiff points and then searches out the 'knots' in the muscle, and that's where the needles go - none of the eastern medicine 'energy lines' or anything, it's based on what she feels. And the needle pulls the knot out of spasm and releases endorphins and other things I don't remember. She gave her a really thorough feel over, you could see that she was far more rigid on one side of her spine than the other, and also said that elbow arthritis like Milly's often causes referred shoulder pain, which she also had. No needles in shoulders today, though.
Back home this evening Milly seems pretty normal, she does feel a slightly different shape when I'm stroking her; don't know if I am imagining it or if it is a subtle change in her posture from the session. No session next week as its Christmas, but we will then have weekly sessions for a month and then see how it goes. She said with cats it is quite individual after that, some go every 3-4 weeks, some might not go for 3 months then suddenly need another burst, it's about watching for the signs and responding to those.
I had a 45 min appointment today as it was the first time she has ever seen Milly, from now on it will be 30 mins. It cost £30.64 which I thought was really reasonable too.
Will keep you all posted on how it goes.
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This is really interesting, especially to hear the principles behind it - fingers crossed it does the trick for her :) I'm gobsmacked at the relatively low cost, compare that to a 5 minute consult which is roughly the same price and it looks ridiculously cheap!
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Really interesting. Keep us posted.
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I agree with TM, it is very interesting and look forward to hearing about Milly's progress.
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Very interesting, especially the good price ;D
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This is really interesting, especially to hear the principles behind it - fingers crossed it does the trick for her :) I'm gobsmacked at the relatively low cost, compare that to a 5 minute consult which is roughly the same price and it looks ridiculously cheap!
I know! I was expecting to pay £70-80 for the first session as it's a referral (one of my bunnies is off for an ophthalmic referral this afternoon and that's £112 just to walk in the door) and as it was a longer session, but no, I just got charged their standard acupuncture fee. One of my friends pays £43 a session at her vets, so I was very pleased, especially as this practice is known locally for not being the cheapest!
The principles were really interesting, she was explaining to me the difference between western 'trigger point' acupuncture and eastern 'acupuncture point' version, saying that the Eastern version works on the belief that energy flows get blocked and using needles in specific meridians can unblock the flow and release the chi or something, whereas western is based on finding those muscle spasms and releasing them and using various points on certain nerve pathways to stimulate the nerves. She says they're mostly in exactly the same places as Chinese acupuncture points, but the needles are not put there for that reason.
Milly seems pretty normal today so I'm happy that she's not one of the hyper responders. I don't think I'll notice too much difference after this session because it was just a light one, but I'm really hopefully that we will see some good improvement over the next month or so. I'll keep you posted :wow:
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Really happy to read that this is going well for you and Milly so far. I will look forward to reading more about how you both get on longer term. Silvie and I are still at the stage of trying the more conventional steroids jags, which I have to say I'm not yet wholly convinced by. But I know I have to give it time. Acupuncture will be next on my list to try.
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Second session today, Milly was a bit grouchy to start off with - the vet used slightly larger needles this time because she didn't have an overreaction from the first light session, and she wasn't all that keen initially. Vet says that they each have their own 'limit' as to how many needles they will tolerate at a time, and for Milly it seems that 3 is too many at the moment, she settled down once it was reduced to two at a time. I took a little video so she could see where Milly is stiff and where she walks funny, so she concentrated on the left hand side of her spine and her right shoulder where most of the issues seem to be. That was the first 'full' session so I'm looking forward to seeing when I can start seeing a difference. Got sessions booked for the next 3 weeks now, so I'm hopeful that I will be able to report back with something positive soon :wow:
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Third session today - in the past week Milly has been overgrooming her left hip, vet thinks that it's because the middle is more 'freed up' now so either her posture has changed which has been causing her discomfort further down, and/or she's just more aware of her hip pain now that the pain higher up her back has been relieved. So today we concentrated on hips. She reacted quite strongly to a few of the needles going in in the areas where she is extremely sore, but those areas which were done last week are still lovely and soft and supple, so it definitely does seem to be helping.
We are keeping the metacam up for now because there are still areas which haven't been needled yet, but the vet is hopeful that we can reduce the metacam, and maybe even get her off it during the summer months. One of her anal glands was also full, which may also have been causing irritation/overgrooming - vet says that in animals with arthritic hips/back legs, they don't squat to poo in the right position so the poo doesn't clear out the anal glands on its way out. I'd say it looks very much like that is what has happened here as most of Milly's pain is on one side and only one gland had anything in it.
I'm very happy with how it's going; a couple more sessions and hopefully we may be able to start reducing the metacam
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So pleased it seems to be going well and great news that the metacam may be reduced soon.
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This sounds really good ;D
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Very promising, sounds like it's all going according to plan :)
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I'm quite tempted to give it a go myself just to see what it feels like, I'm curious to know what she's feeling. I've never been tempted before because I've always thought acupuncture was a bit crazy, but vet says if I find a medical acupuncturist rather than an eastern one I will probably be more at ease :evillaugh:
She said the reason she learnt was because she had a bad whiplash injury years ago which osteopathy, physio etc couldn't cure, but 2 sessions of acupuncture dealt with it. Amazing really, I consider myself a former sceptic!
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All sounds really promising for Milly :)
Silvie has given herself a bald armpit, right where her dodgy knee is. It's right underneath so I would never had noticed if the vet hadn't told me! The skin isn't broken though so I'm not too worried about it.
I think acupuncture is one of those things that if it works for you, it really works. I had some once for a sore neck and shoulders and didn't really notice an effect. It's always worth a try though :)
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Main session 3 today. Milly has been really pulling at the fur on her hip; vet says it is very common for chronic type pain to manifest across the body but once you start 'releasing' those areas, it all tracks back to the original source of the pain - and the rest of it is mainly because of posture changes to try and cope with the worst pain. So with Milly it looks as if the left hip, where she is fur pulling, is where the main source of pain is, and in the interim it has perhaps got a bit 'worse' because other muscles have now been pinged out of spasm.
So today the vet concentrated on the left hip; it was really interesting to watch, because Milly has pulled the fur out on that bit so I could see exactly what she was doing. The needles were going in quite deep, about 3cm in some places, and the vet holds them there and occasionally twists/moves them up and down, and she places her hand around the needle to hold Milly still and to feel the muscles twitching. Some of the twitches were making the needle move so the acupuncture is clearly getting right into the muscles which have spasmed and got all tense.
I'm certain that she is not arching her back as much when she walks now, so I'm really hopeful that with a couple more sessions, she'll be much happier. I took some video of her walking at the start of the sessions, so I'll try and take some more in a week or two and we'll see if purrs peeps can spot the difference :wow:
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3cms is a very long way in, i have had acupuncture and they just went in a little but certain places I couldnt tollerate them at all as my body/skin was releasing histomine and was itching .
I hope these keep on working and Milly is being a very brave cat ;D
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Yes most of them didn't go that deeply, there were a couple of places where she was heading for a muscle underneath a muscle (can't remember its name) so needed a slightly longer one. It's interesting to watch, it's clearly not hurting her, she just has that look of a cat who doesn't want to be at the vets :rofl:
Although she's not hyper-responding, Milly always seems to be unspeakably hungry when she gets home, I don't know if it can stimulate their appetite? I must remember to ask next week.
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I wouldnt be surprised cos it does all things and on the odd time it worked for me I was incredibly relaxed and could just fall asleep
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I don't think I would be able to watch, I don't do needles! :faint: Would be interested to see the comparion videos ;D
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Milly had her 'final' session of the first batch today, no more 'trigger points' found other than those last few dealt with today. She is going back next week just for a prod to see how things are doing, but all being well, we may be able to try reducing metacam next week. She is definitely moving more freely and is extending her limbs far better :wow: She's also due her booster vac next week so it will also be interesting to see how my normal vet thinks she compares to when she examined her last. Will try and get a little vid soon!
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Well done Milly and sounds like its helped her ;D
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She's jumped up onto a bedroom sideboard next to a radiator for a nap this afternoon - I'm not sure she's ever jumped up there before, so she's definitely feeling more nimble. When I find her on a kitchen worktop, that will be the final confirmation :rofl:
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Milly jumped the 6ft garden fence this afternoon :Crazy: I've NEVER seen her do that before! She also went to see my normal vet this week for her booster, and my vet was amazed at how much better her mobility is and how little she is bothered with being touched and having those joints manipulated now. So I think that's a big thumbs up on the acupuncture!
I'm currently trying to find someone who does the western trigger point acupuncture for humans, my back is really bad and I thought it would be interesting to see what it feels like and whether it helps me too.
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That is pretty amazing. So glad it worked.
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So pleased it has been a success ;D Maybe the acupuncturist that treated Milly will know of someone to help you or be able to tell you where you can find someone.
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That is great news for Milly :hug:
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Fluffybunny - have you been to your GP lately? The only reason I ask is that I've just come back to mine and mentioned my constant headaches and she said to book in for accupuncture with her! I was really surprised. Might be worth asking.
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When I find her on a kitchen worktop, that will be the final confirmation :rofl:
Milly jumped the 6ft garden fence this afternoon :Crazy: I've NEVER seen her do that before!
Well if that's not an advert for acupuncture I don't know what is!
I still couldn't bring myself to have it due to needle-phobia but hope you can find somebody local that does the 'type' you need. Maybe a silly Q but does the vet do human patients too?
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Yes, I suppose it is! I haven't seen her on kitchen work tops yet, she isn't terribly food orientated so I guess she just doesn't want to as it's never a habit she has had.
. Maybe a silly Q but does the vet do human patients too?
She can (they learnt on each other before they started doing animals) but she doesn't, as she isn't insured to. So she does friends and family but not anyone else. I did ask her if she knows of anyone round my way but she doesn't. I think I may have found a local physiotherapist who does it.
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So I've just come back from my first session of trigger point acupuncture so now I know what it feels like...it makes bits you were blissfully unaware of most of the time feel very sore :rofl: he found some horrid knots which really hurt when pressed. You can't really feel the needles go in, and then some of them I couldn't feel at all, some of them ached or tingled a bit, and a couple of them REALLY HURT :rofl: Not in an unbearable way, but in a definite ouchy way.
So now I feel a bit sore through my shoulders, he said that my posture had changed over my shoulders through just the one session, so we shall see how it goes throughout the week.
Tomorrow is Milly's turn again; we are now down to fortnightly so depending on how it goes, it may be time to start talking about reducing the metacam :wow:
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I realise that I'm doing a lot of posting here - but I hope that some of it is informative and helpful to someone ;D
Milly has been checked again this morning - no trigger points found at all and she has full extension in all her limbs :wow: no amount of prodding and pressing gave the slightest reaction - so no acupuncture needed today. Vet agrees we can start reducing metacam and suggests doing half kilo dose reduction every week, as that gives enough time for changes to show and to find a lower effective dose. So we don't go back for another fortnight now, meaning that when we next visit it will have been a month since any acupuncture - a good test to see how frequently she may need future 'top ups'. Am very pleased indeed :wow:
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I find all this very interesting and such good news for Molly ;D
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I find all this very interesting and such good news for Molly ;D
Me too, it's fascinating stuff and is bound to help someone in the future who is considering it fro their pet. When you said about finding the knots in your human session I was tempted (for a split second!) as I get really achey shoulders/upper back and have quite bad knotted tension myself.
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It's even more interesting for Milly ;)
I feel really sore today! I was warned that I might, and I really do! I'm so glad I gave it a go, I think it has helped me to understand what Milly might be physically feeling during and after each session.
I have another session next week too; I think it has really helped my back already even though it is still sore. I was lying in bed last night and my shoulders were so relaxed I almost couldn't feel them - the best I can describe it is that it feels I've I've been cut out of a very tight, restricting shirt that I had got so used to wearing that I didn't even realise I was wearing it until it had gone! Very odd indeed. But quite pleasant now; it feels very different.
Onwards and upwards, I'll keep you posted on how Milly goes now we are starting to reduce the metacam dose, as that will be particularly interesting to see I think!
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Definitely interesting for me as it's something I might consider for Silvie. I think it's great you're trying it too - another interesting angle!
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Back this morning, it's been a fortnight since her last visit and she had 4 or 5 small sore bits which were needled but on the whole she is still remarkably comfortable - especially as its been a month since she last had any acupuncture and she's now on 2.5kg dose of painkiller down from 3.7kg.
Vet is very pleased and doesn't want to see her again for another month, and in the meantime we keep reducing the metacam at 0.5kg a week as long as she stays comfortable.
I took a little vid of her walking down the stairs this morning, but it keeps giving me a processing error every time I try and upload it to photobucket >:( without top pain relief previously she would bunny hop down the stairs, jumping with both her back legs at the same time. Today on 1/3 lower pain relief she is walking normally :wow:
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Glad it's all going well for Milly ;D how did your own second lot of treatment go?
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Ooh, I don't like it at all, it hurts :rofl: but I have renewed empathy for Milly. It does seem to be loosening up my back a bit but after Geoffrey's dental last week the financial cupboard is a bit bare at the moment so I won't be having any more for a few weeks at least!
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It sounds like it must have done you some good if you are willing to go through the pain again and hopefully the next treatment won't be so painful.
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without top pain relief previously she would bunny hop down the stairs, jumping with both her back legs at the same time. Today on 1/3 lower pain relief she is walking normally :wow:
I think this in itself is an advert for acupuncture, are you on commision?! :evillaugh:
I'm still not convinced for humans (too scared of needles!) but I would definitely consider it for the boys, if ever needed, based on Milly's experience :)
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I have accupuncture twice a month at my Local NHS Physio dept for free a couple were learning so I get extra sessions from them and I can walk in 3 inch heels again and have a life after my car accident 3 years ago
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without top pain relief previously she would bunny hop down the stairs, jumping with both her back legs at the same time. Today on 1/3 lower pain relief she is walking normally :wow:
I think this in itself is an advert for acupuncture, are you on commision?! :evillaugh:
I consider myself to be a converted cynic :evillaugh:
It gets even better - having incrementally reduced it, we're now down to 0.5kg daily dose (i.e. virtually nothing) and she's still not bunnyhopping down the stairs and is still walking normally. So this time next week, hopefully we will be off the metacam totally. I'm sooooo pleased (and amazed - as is my normal vet!) I can't tell you!
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That is wonderful ;D
For humans it shouldnt hurt if done properly but have to say it has never helped me and have had a number of different sessions in London.
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I think I've realised why it hurt me and why my back is such a problem - the guy said that the trigger points were so deep in spasm that they were sucking the needles in rather than freeing it up, and my vet said that can happen if you've got particularly tense bits. The penny has suddenly dropped though that the reason I hold so much tension in my shoulders isn't because I'm unduly stressed, it's simply because I'm hypermobile, and if I let my shoulders relax fully, my arms pop out of their sockets :rofl:
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We're off the metacam! Went back yesterday and there were a few points which the vet described as being 'a bit sore' rather than very painful, so she had just a few needles in those bits. We suspect those are the bits where the spondylosis is, so they will probably need fairly regular treatment to keep it nice and pain free. For now I'm over the moon, any period of time without metacam has got to be a good thing :wow:
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Brilliant news. I'm a big fan of accupuncture and I'm really pleased it worked :hug:
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Fantastic news ;D
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(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v117/AlisonA/image_zps9079fda8.jpg)
See that shed in the background? Yesterday afternoon we called Milly as she wasn't in the house when we came home. Where did she appear from? She came running over the top of the shed, jumped down the front corner and ran to the house. Just like that. Little miss no-painkillers is obviously feeling very bouncy, both to have got up there in the first place and to have got down again with such ease!
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Thats really great ;D ;D
Ummmmmmmmm who is that pecking ?
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That's Percy, the village peacock :evillaugh: I've got some photos somewhere of Geoffrey eyeing him up and of him peering in at us as we had our Christmas dinner :rofl: I'll see if I can dig them out.
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:rofl: :rofl:
Aren't they supposed to be really noisy?
Well done Milly!