Purrs In Our Hearts - Cat Forum UK
Cat Health & Behaviour => Health & Behaviour General => Topic started by: Mark on May 02, 2007, 23:27:22 PM
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A few weeks when I ran out over easter, clapton was 5 days without and his appetite improved. Also he was a lot livlier. I have had a lot of trouble feeding him this week. He often only eats in the evening but on day one without a pill he wanted food during the day and this morning actually wanted breakfast for the first time in ages. I am still struggling to get him to eat senior but he has had 2 trays of sheba terrine, one pouch of whiskas senior, a coley steak and a small amount of co-op terrine today which is the most he has eaten in a day in some time. He has been playing in the garden and even jumped on my lap for a cuddle in the garden. I really don't know what to do for the best. As I type this, he has polished off the tray in less than 2 minutes - instead of nibbling, he is doing his old trick of dragging it across the floor and devouring it with gusto :Luv:
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I can only go on my experiences but I have a lot of time for Fortekor. Tiggy's inappetance was due to excess stomach acid and once that problem was under control then that was half the battle of CRF won.
Does Clapton's stomach gurgle? Or does he sometimes vomit clear foamy patches? If he does then he very likely has excess stomach acid/nausea, that will undoubtedly cause a lack of appetite or sometimes an interest in food but when it comes to the crunch getting to the bowl and not eating. Obviously you should discuss any new treatments with your vet but there are several remedies for excess acid available that really do work. If you or your vet don't think that he is suffering from excess stomach acid/nausea then I think you have to consider taking him off it if is really affecting his appetite that badly. It's so hard to know what to do for the best, I'm sure you'll make the right decision for him :hug:
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I would discuss this with your vet before making any decisions, but good luck.
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I wish my vet wasn't so cut & dried about things. When I tried to discuss binders with him, he just dismissed it. Its not just the appetite, clapton's whole demenour changes, he seems a lot happier when he isn't on the fortekor . He did have a gurgly stomach but I have been giving him slippery elm which seems to help a bit and he eats it no problem. I will try puting him back on them and speak to the vet (hopefully without having to take clapton with me)
He is fast asleep on my bed at the moment :Luv: (kylie isn 't too pleased but she has accepted it ;D)
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you should write down your questions you want answers to mark and speak to the vet. perhaps get together with him and have 2 or 3 plans of action ie carry on fortekor but as helen suggested have him take some sort of antacids aswell for say a 1 mnth trial and if things are still the same discuss with the vet stopping fortekor but perhaps have him blood tested every 12-16 wks for kidney function.
You know ive said before whats the point of adding quantity of life if the quality is greatly reduced.
Let us know how you get on :hug:
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This is really interesting Mark as sometimes the vets insist there are no 'side effects' whereas owners who live with the cats can see that they are feeling better/worse etc on a pill or off it. My vet insisted Istin (bp) wouldn't affect Swamp's liver whereas it did. His kidney results have just shown the beginnings of deterioration so the vet's talking Fortekor - something to do with cos he has a heart murmur too?! (no time to explain either and very vague, if good, vet).
Can you get hold of the drug insert online to look for side effects? Like Helen says, it could be that he's got too much acid so fortekor with an antacid may help (?).
I'm going to have a look-see myself as can see both of mine being put on it.
Just how much difference does Fortekor make in keeping kidney deterioration at bay? Sorry to hijack your thread, but was just going to open up another on on Fortekor when I read this. I'll do so if you prefer? Swampy's readings are 182 creatinine and 9.2 urea; higher than 3 months ago (please don't let it be the Hills food!).
I'll post anything I see about Fortekor and nausea. Hope Clapton's enjoying his nosh today.
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http://www.ah.novartis.com/products/en/cab/fortekor.shtml
from the drug co...claims it puts on weight. There are some precautions and contra-indications which you might want to chat to with the vet (lethargy etc bit if you scroll down).
Nausea's not listed. That doesn't mean it isn't making him nauseous. Try an antacid?
good luck with Clapton.
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here you guys if you havent already read this
http://www.noahcompendium.co.uk/Compendium/Overview/search.asp?search=fortekor
Swampmax..note in contras it says fortekor can cause a rise of plasma urea initially ! (what type of hills are you feeding btw)
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He gets Hills l/d and some i/d. I gather l/d is very similar to k/d.
Vet says he has early kidney dysfunction and his urine is too dilute so wants to start him on treatment now. Max possibly also - vague vet is checking, but Max's blood kidney results were worse than Swamp's....so they may both be on it quite soon. Swamp's results were within normal range in January; now just above.
One thing: Novartis claim that it works best in chronic renal insufficiency that's advanced - is it protective or curative then?
Plus why isn't it licensed for cats in America (dogs only)? I am so scared of these big intl conglomaterates. Swampy's doing well as is Max right now and I don't want to be overmedicating.
How bad is Clapton, Mark? I guess the CFS is what's probably making him feel very sick. My vet said that the Fortekor actually should help to reduce nausea. Blimey, it's difficult trying to do the right thing.
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Apparently he only has "moderate" CRF -which I suppose is like "how long is a piece of string' - he doesn't vomit, he gurgles sometimes, not as active as he used to be and more of a daddies boy every day. He wants to sleep on my lap every time I sit down (which isn't often as I am hyper ;D )
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re the licensing thing thats pretty easy..the company will have paid for it to be licensed in britain but not america, licensing will only be given once it has passed a few years of testing and case studies, so dont worry about that at all...it IS licensed for cats.
I dont think it is preventative and its certainly not curative as there is no cure for crf as far as i am aware. Fortekor for cats with crf wasnt used when i last worked so i cant claim to know all about it for this but as far as i can gather it works by reducing work load on the kidneys for a very simplified explanation and therefore the kidneys will keep on going longer and deterioration will take longer if they are not having to work so hard.
Have you looked into the differences between i/d and k/d properly ?? if your cat has a degree of crf im puzzled as to why you would feed i/d and not k/d or other prescrip diets specifically for crf. I do know that the prescrip diets can play a big role in this condition and have seen many times moderate crf levels come back within normal ranges through diet alone. (great if the cat is happy to eat them.)
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i/d is less suitable but it's not junk food either or so we hope !
the only k/d that doesn't make Max vomit is the minced chicken. If I feed him that, Swampy wants it and leaves his l/d and heads off in the direction of M's plate (aka the Ominous Waddle lol). Swampy then eats it and...usually vomits it. Plus then starts to refuse l/d. So all in all, right now with only mild problems, it's just easier to feed i/d (which Swamp fancies but doesn't cause him to start the OW). Plus Max had a vomiting spree in Feb which has calmed down on i/d.
Sorry, Mark! Thanks Lynn for the licensing info. I think they will both be on Fortekor. Did your vet do a urinalysis Mark? I don't know how the vets can prescribe strong drugs based on a non sterile sample tested on a dipstick, but he's fixating on the concentration of the sample rather than on the bloods. Plus is it true that to have even slightly above normal urea and creatinine, at least 70% of kidney function is really already gone?
Like you, what is 'mild', 'early' or 'moderate' then? Maybe we should stick to Fortekor if it makes them live longer - as long as it's not what's making Clapton feel yuk. Wondered how long after starting to take it that he showed the side effects? Do you know if it lowered his blood pressure?
hope he's having a good day. Mine started at 6am by knocking over a pile of books, then yelling, then ate 1/2 can of nosh each. Hope Clapton's having a good kip 'n nosh day too :-)
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He hasn't eaten yet and just wants to curl up on my lap - laptop is perched on my knees ;D
He let me cover him up with a jumper this morning to keep him warm - he used to hate that kind of thing
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he's just getting older Mark. Swampy's a lot more clingy too. They seem to need more reassurance. It's hard when a robust, mad cat turns into a little old man, but I love spending quiet time with the little guy. I think about the phases of his life and how in each one, he's wanted a different type of attention. It's rather wonderful. Purrs to Clapton. Hope he wants to nosh later.
Have you tried any appetite stimulants or antacids with him or is he doing just fine as he is?
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Clapton is only 7. Willow is 8 and like a kitten :Luv:
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that's young for kidney disease. I'm so sorry. Hope he has a good weekend with you, even if he's trying to stop you using the laptop :Luv:
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Plus is it true that to have even slightly above normal urea and creatinine, at least 70% of kidney function is really already gone?
Like you, what is 'mild', 'early' or 'moderate' then?
This gives you an idea here about how bad it is http://felinecrf.org/how_bad_is_it.htm
My Suzie's creatinine was 359 and urea 26.5 so she is definitely in kidney failure, as opposed to having kidney insufficiency. That was in November last year, she's not on fortekor, and I'm just feeding her her normal diet and she's still got a good appetite thankfully. I havent had further blood tests done, but am planning to soon (when I've save up enough LOL!) Suzie is 14.
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s & m mum... sorry i didnt realise the reasons you were feeding i/d but i do now thanks....I'm sure if given a choice of i/d over some commercial foods the i/d would be much better.
I am very concerned though about what you said on the blood tests. On a previous post you gave latest urea and creat results so why did you mention your vet goes on the specific gravity (concentration) of urine rather than bloods ?? If your vet is doing bloods every 3-6 months i'd say that was adequeate and testing the sg inbetween is fine.
also i would like to inform you guys that dipsticks to test for the specific gravity of urine but please know that these are well known for being quite inaccurate for that indicator (they are far more accurate on the protein, glucose etc etc) Lots of vets have a little peice of equipment called a " refractometer" which you put a drop of urine in, look through an eye piece and it gives you an exact and more accurate SG reading. At no time did we ever use the dipsticks reading for SG and always used the refractometer with every urine test.
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Blimey, vet already thinks I'm a neurotic know-it- all because of the info I pass on from all the knowledgeable kittybods on this forum. I'm wondering how to broach the subject of dipstick vs refractometer without him going ballistic.....I know his nurse does the testing cos she mentioned the dipstick.
Lynn, how many hours old can a urine sample be and still be ok to test? Max will only pee at night when vet is closed.
He's going on urine concentration as the bloods aren't too bad (183 and 9.2), but he's concerned that there is kidney deterioration in a cat with a small heart murmur and having had liver disease.
The latter makes me petrified about Fortekor although I can't see it contra-indicated (like Istin).
Clapton clearly has Fortekor side effects; anyone else? My 2 were playing like loonies today and eating well and I'm torn between medicating and not, like Mark and others. I don't want to ruin his current good spell, nor to leave it untreated for too long. Vet told me Istin wouldn't cause any probs and it did. I suppose could try - how long are cats on it for before you can tell if it's working or not?
Sorry, Mark, would you prefer it if this all got moved to a dedicated Fortekor thread? I only started the mini hijack here because my qs were so similar to your's ie Fortekor and side effects vs benefits.
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Keeping it on this thread is fine. We're both trying to get the same info ;D
Well I have been out for a few hours (fruitless trip - on a separate thread) and he is sleeping. He Still hasn't eaten. He doesn't seem "ill" ie his eyes don't have that look but he is being very needy today. Licking hands and whimpering at me (he doesn't really meow). I wonder if its because I started him back on Fortekor yesterday (maybe its not a good idea to "stop start") I will seak to the vet again next week. I am probably going to speak to the vet next door and I may have to ask them the retest and get a 2nd opinion.
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Mark i dont think stop / start is a good idea if it were to happen too often.
One thing ive realised i havent asked you is regarding claptons weight (quite silly i havent asked actually) how is this going, i'm thinking if its fairly stable then perhaps you should just stop trying to hard if that makes sense.
if you are convinced that its the fortekor making him like this then i would make a decision if it were me and following speaking to the vet to stop it completely for 1 month then reavaluate.
s & m mum..i think the fortekor might be worth a try tbh esp if there is a heart murmer etc aswell since fortekor was originally made for dogs with heart problems, the fact it helps cat with kidney problems has been an added bonus so to speak. RE the urine sample...i in all honestly couldnt tell you exactly how many hours they are ok for, fresh is always best but i think many urine samples are up to 12 hrs old by the time we probably get them...always store in the fridge though.
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Clapton clearly has Fortekor side effects; anyone else? My 2 were playing like loonies today and eating well and I'm torn between medicating and not, like Mark and others. I don't want to ruin his current good spell, nor to leave it untreated for too long. Vet told me Istin wouldn't cause any probs and it did. I suppose could try - how long are cats on it for before you can tell if it's working or not?
Tiggy was on Fortekor for almost 20 months and had no side effects whatsoever. When she was diagnosed the vet initially gave the prognosis of 5 - 7 months given her age, I honestly believe that the Fortekor gave her the extra time with me and in the end her CRF was still well managed it was the cancer that took her :'(
Here are Tiggy's blood test results, Fortekor was started immediately after the first test in July 2005... As you can see her results improved at every test, the last test taken just 4 months before she died her kidney levels were actually within normal range - not bad for an 18 year old cat diagnosed with a terminal condition 20 months earlier!
Here's a really good link to info on Fortekor, it mentions that Fortekor is primarily excreted by the liver so may not be suitable for Swampy after all? There are also links to studies, trials and other articles. http://www.felinecrf.org/treatments.htm#ACEI
July 05
Urea 35.3 Normal range 2.5 - 9.9
Creat 312.2 Normal range 20 - 177
Phos 2.24 Normal range 0.9 - 2.2
October 05
Urea 16.5 Normal range 2.5 - 9.9
Creat 233 Normal range 20 - 177
Phos 1.68 Normal range 0.9 - 2.2
January 06
Urea 20 Normal range 2.5 - 9.9
Creat 165 Normal range 20 - 177
Phos 2.06 Normal range 0.9 - 2.2
April 06
Urea 18.5 Normal range 2.5 - 9.9
Creat 150 Normal range 20 - 177
Phos 1.5 Normal range 0.9 - 2.2
October 06
Urea 9.8 Normal range 2.5 - 9.9
Creat 97.4 Normal range 20 - 177
Phos 1.7 Normal range 0.9 - 2.2
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I need to ge more organised. I have claptons results "somewhere" - Iam the most disorganised person going. Clapton's weight is pretty stable but it takes a lot of effort. I know what you mean lynn about not trying so hard but I'm scared that unless I cajole him, he won't eat enough. I sit on the basement stairs with him on my lap and let him eat from my hand. Once he gets into t, he will eat more. Anyway, I got some free range west country chicken breasts from the clearance counter in sainsburys today so I think he will make up for lost time later ;D
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I know exactly what you mean Mark, for me it was like living with a fussy toddler! I was always trying to persuade her to eat, chicken breast was her favourite and sometimes I'm sure she held out for some chicken breast knowing if she didn't eat her dinner she would get some. She would be very jealous of Clapton's tea tonoight, free range aswell!
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just to second the not stop/starting.
as stated fortecor slows down the flow through the kidneys so the kidney has more time to do its work.
At first this can cause an increase in the levels which is why it can take a while for the benefits to kick in.
may cause the liver to work harder.
Fang (rip 1 year today :( ) was 2 weeks into fortecor.
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I'm worried about the liver thing but seem to recall it was mentioned as a bp lowering med instead of Istin, but rejected as not working well enough. I'll have to make some enquiries as the Swampcat's ALT is now just over 50 which is the best for over a year. He's still on Destolit and Zentonil; the jury is out on Destolit but if it ain't broke etc. Zentonil gives an appetite boost - wonder if it may help cats with kidney nausea? It's a food supplement not a drug.
Also Mark have you tried (if chicken be moooost acceptable lol) Hills k/d minced chicken? It seems to be a lot more appetising than the old style k/d which think is being phased out too.
My friend is making chicken broth for her sick one and he's loving it as doesn't have to work too hard to eat.
Thanks for the Fortekor info Helen. I'll read it all, print it out and try to get the vet when he's not in one of his ultra vague moods. Last time he told me that I had decided to forego Fortekor for the Maxcat, whereas we'd not even discussed it. Whoops.
Hope Clapton likes his free range.
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He had a small bowl of roast chicken this morning - not very nice smelling chicken cooking at 8.30 :sick: (like xmas day :sick: :sick: )
He has also eaten 2 bites of ollie wet. :(
I will continue coaxing him with mouthfuls but I think I will have to take him to the vets on Tuesday :(
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I must admit I took Bella off the fortekor as she was like a zombie and sleeping so much her counts were so bad they said they would be honest that they didnt expect she would live very long
She has no medication now and is 25 years old. I let her eat, sleep and have her little run arounds when she has the energy. I didnt want her to just exist. i hated seeing her like a Zombie
Hope he enjoye his FR chicken tonight Mark. Can I send my 9 for some too
xx
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Well he isn't eating much still.
This morning I decided after offering him olli & roast chicken without luck, to try beaten egg. It seemed to do the trick and he ate 2 pouches of Tesco in jelly (he seems to prefer it to more expensive ones)
I am going to speak to the vet about fortekor. (he is back on it now)
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what does he weigh Mark? I read somewhere that if cats are very light, Fortekor can be more of a problem. I have no idea but is it a pill that you can adjust the dosage of, so that a cat gets some benefit and the side effects are diminished?
hope Clapton gets some nosh down him today.
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Funny you should say that. I have halved his dose to see if it makes any difference. I will speak to the vet about it. He was eating quite well yesterday ( a sprinkle of serrano ham over his bowl of food helped ;D )
He's not feather weigh but he has lost a bit of weight over the last few months.
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Did you see the vet today Mark?
I really think you need to decide if you are giving the Fortekor and at what dose, stopping and starting the drug will confuse his body and probably make him feel more like a rollercoaster! :shy:
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Got him booked in for 4.30 today. He hasn't eaten again he ate a bit last night but he is bound to be losing weight. I let him have a bowl of regular milk last night as I know it doesn't upset his stomach and food is food. I dread taking him as he gets so scared and plays dead :(
Now the appointment is made, he will probably eat all day :tired:
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How's his liver enzymes, Mark? I wondered if they were elevated or if Fortekor is not too bad on the liver. That plus the kidney probs could be making him feel nauseous.
Hope you get on well with the vet. And that Clapton eats enough.
Swampy's urine sample went off this am (for dipstick only again :( ) so no doubt Fortekor's coming his way soon too. Plus Max whose blood kidney results are traditionally worse than Swampy's. I just hope no side effects.
If you stop and start, doesn't the creatinine go up (as posted below, it goes up after starting treatment)?
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I'm going to ask the vet to do bloods again today. Its only about 2 months since he had them done and at the time, the vet said do them again in 6 months but I think its important to find out whats what. a few weeks ago, he was mad for Tesco own brand but he won't even eat that now. He refused boiled coley last night and chicken on monday so I am out of ideas. The only thing he will take is cows milk.
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Have you tried him on pilchards or sardines? Stronger smelling foods used to help encourage Winston to start eating again. Good luck at the vets today xxx
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Good luck at the vets, Mark. Hope Clapton is doing OK.
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I have tried all kinds of fish but he isn't a fishy cat except sometimes boiled white fish. I opened a can of sardines a while ago - the ring came off so I have to find the tin opener :tired:
I also have a can of hi-life fish platter but I know he won't eat it. I opened one 2 weeks ago and they all turned their noses up.
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Is Clapton a fan of chicken? Maybe a chicken broth?
Sorry you have probably been through everything you can possibly think of. Just trying to remember all the times Winston went off food and what got him eating again.
Normally the sardines worked for him but sometimes I would roast some chicken and use the juices from that to cover his food or make a little chicken broth. He never was a fan of the old tuna water. I also would paoch a little white fish in a little milk.
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He always loved chicken but I think he has been having it too much as he has even gone off that. I have tried it raw, boiled, roasted etc. I will poach some coley for him later but won't hold my breath. Anyway, the birds are doing really well today - opened 6 pouches/trays + sardines. Ironically the only one he attempted to eat some of was the lidl (4 pouches for 63p! )
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nightmare as he keeps going off what he will eat and if you keep changing it, he'll get confused and picky too. Have you tried Hills a/d or the minced chicken k/d at all?
suppose he's not allowed salt which is what would make any chicken broth or home cooked chicken even nicer :(
you've prob tried feeding him in different ways eg off your finger or back of spoon? so that he just licks, doesn't really have to eat.
all the best.
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Well back from vets
The good news is Clapton weighs the same as 2 months ago. I pointed out that its only because I am here 24/7 and teasing him into eating mouthfuls
Vet gave him a steroid injection and gave me childrens vitamin drops to give him every day. The vet also offered me a syringe to give clapton water & glucose solution (I don't know what happened but I didn't get them :Crazy: )
I asked him to check claptons mouth as he has been hissing and running off. He has some inflammation in his gums (I think he only has 1 or 2 teeth left) but the vet didn't want to give him an anaesthetic to remove the tooth whilst his kidneys were undermined, so gave him a long-lasting antibiotic.
He said to watch him for a month and bring him back if there is no improvement. He mentioned that an animal must enjoy life and there is no point in existing but feeling sick and miserable. He told me NOT to give him milk as it has large molecules or something and is very bad for the kidneys and pituitary gland. He said I need to aim for food with small molecules like fish, chicken etc. - he said any carbs like pasta would be good but unlikely he will eat them. On no account give him pork of any description as this is the worst possible food with large molecules. Also beef is a no-no
I also met 2 CP kitties Dylan & Henry going in with their foster mum and we had a chat. They had come from Stoke CP as they are overrun
http://www.catchat.org/cantcp/cgibin/prview.cgi?id=2007050604
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nightmare as he keeps going off what he will eat and if you keep changing it, he'll get confused and picky too. Have you tried Hills a/d or the minced chicken k/d at all?
suppose he's not allowed salt which is what would make any chicken broth or home cooked chicken even nicer :(
you've prob tried feeding him in different ways eg off your finger or back of spoon? so that he just licks, doesn't really have to eat.
all the best.
I don't think he will eat any Hills food - I have loads of K/D but it's supermeat style (will have to look nto getting the minced one). I hope the steroids kick in soon as I want to see him eat. I am going to try a different type of fish tonight - I will have to force myself to go and get fish & chips and let him have some ;D
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On no account give him pork of any description as this is the worst possible food with large molecules. Also beef is a no-no
Ah well Hills make their l/d for liver patients from beef and now pork! Although of course I wonder just how much is in it?!
minced chicken k/d smells very strong and when they've had it, they much preferred it to the horrible old k/d. Might be worth a try? hope the steroids work.
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Well about 1/2 hour ago, he started licking my hand & face (means I'm hungry!) and I gave him a pouch of Tesco in Jelly. 10 mins later, the bowl was licked clean. 15 minutes later he wanted more and he ate a pouch of whiskas senior (hasn't done that in weeks). I know its the drugs so shouldn't get too excited but at least he's eating.
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Hills ad is like a creamy pate and kocka would only eat it off my finger, she ate it for the last few years of her life, supplemented by anything else i could tempt her to eat.
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Maybe I should try some.
Now the steroids have kicked in, he is eating for england! 2 pouches with licked-clean bowl!! ;D
As he is meant to be on low-phos diet, I think maybe I should stick to fish/chickem senior (or ideally K/D) so as not to overload his kidneys. I won't feed him til bedtime now and see if he is hungry enough to eat the k/d or the other kidney food in the cupboard.
I want this tio work as the vet sounded like he was priming me for PTS :(
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Vet gave him a steroid injection and gave me childrens vitamin drops to give him every day. The vet also offered me a syringe to give clapton water & glucose solution (I don't know what happened but I didn't get them :Crazy: )
He said to watch him for a month and bring him back if there is no improvement. He mentioned that an animal must enjoy life and there is no point in existing but feeling sick and miserable. He told me NOT to give him milk as it has large molecules or something and is very bad for the kidneys and pituitary gland. He said I need to aim for food with small molecules like fish, chicken etc. - he said any carbs like pasta would be good but unlikely he will eat them. On no account give him pork of any description as this is the worst possible food with large molecules. Also beef is a no-no
Mark, what did your vet say about whether to keep on with fortekor or not?
I'm interested in what he said about the molecules - don't understand it mind! Did he expand on how big molecules affect the kidneys etc? How do we know what foods got big molecules and what food hasnt? :Crazy: Bit of a shame about the beef, all my cats, including my 2 crf cats love it! I always thought that more fatty meats like beef, are better for crf cats, because the more the fat the lower the phosphorus? maybe got that wrong!! :-:
Elsa had a steroid and vitamin injection over 3 months ago now, and vet reckoned it would last about 6 wks - but she's still eating really well.
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If he was Mark, then I think the best idea is to give Clapton a happy quality of life and feed him what he likes best, irrespective of anything else.
I think the more he is messed about with food and meds, the more unhappy he will be............................but this is just my opinion...........and it was the route my London vet said to take with Kocka.
I always hope that I made the right decision and she had the best life I could give her until she went to the Bridge at 20yrs old.
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Vet gave him a steroid injection and gave me childrens vitamin drops to give him every day. The vet also offered me a syringe to give clapton water & glucose solution (I don't know what happened but I didn't get them :Crazy: )
He said to watch him for a month and bring him back if there is no improvement. He mentioned that an animal must enjoy life and there is no point in existing but feeling sick and miserable. He told me NOT to give him milk as it has large molecules or something and is very bad for the kidneys and pituitary gland. He said I need to aim for food with small molecules like fish, chicken etc. - he said any carbs like pasta would be good but unlikely he will eat them. On no account give him pork of any description as this is the worst possible food with large molecules. Also beef is a no-no
Mark, what did your vet say about whether to keep on with fortekor or not?
I'm interested in what he said about the molecules - don't understand it mind! Did he expand on how big molecules affect the kidneys etc? How do we know what foods got big molecules and what food hasnt? :Crazy: Bit of a shame about the beef, all my cats, including my 2 crf cats love it! I always thought that more fatty meats like beef, are better for crf cats, because the more the fat the lower the phosphorus? maybe got that wrong!! :-:
Elsa had a steroid and vitamin injection over 3 months ago now, and vet reckoned it would last about 6 wks - but she's still eating really well.
He said to keep on with the fortekor as it opens up the arteries around the kidneys, taking the load off them and allowing them to get rid of the creatanine which is the toxin that makes them feel nauseous. He said something else about molecules but the gist was all dairy and pork have large molecules and should be avoided (thats why I'm confused about k/d minced chicken containing pork) he said pasta would be excellent if you could get a cat to eat it!. He said next month he may want to keep clapton in for 24hrs rehydration. I wish I took him up on the offer of a syringe to give clapton glucose & water to rehydrate (he talks a lot and he went off onto something else)
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If he was Mark, then I think the best idea is to give Clapton a happy quality of life and feed him what he likes best, irrespective of anything else.
I think the more he is messed about with food and meds, the more unhappy he will be............................but this is just my opinion...........and it was the route my London vet said to take with Kocka.
I always hope that I made the right decision and she had the best life I could give her until she went to the Bridge at 20yrs old.
The problem is, clapton is only 8. If he can't get on with renal food I think I will order some Ipaktine binders and Kaminox renal support solution and give them a try. Its all too :Crazy:
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Mark glad to hear clapton is eating even if it is the steriods but i just wanted to say you can get long acting steriods and if need be cats can be on them indefinately..yes its not ideal but neither is a babe with mild crf and doesnt eat...perhaps this is a medication that will need to be repeated.
RE the pork..there is/was some old story or something about cats shouldnt be fed on pork (even healthy ones) so i'll have to go and see if i can remember or look that one up for you as its a vague dot in the back of my head. I'm trying to remember about insulin aswell coz i cant remember if porcine insulin is or isnt ok for cats (not that insulin is anything to do with clapton but there was something about pork there too im sure)
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I forgot, one other thing he gave me was a bottle of abecin (childrens vitamins) God knows how I am meant to administer as clapton won't let me put the dropper in his mouth and he stopped eating when I put the drops on his food (his 3rd pouch tonight!)
including the fortekor, bill was £70 so not bad really - even though a new pair of shoes would have been nicer :rofl:
oh and the k/d food I have already is chicken and he won't touch it >:(
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Oh dear drops on his food.............he wont eat that again :rofl:
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Mark glad to hear clapton is eating even if it is the steriods but i just wanted to say you can get long acting steriods and if need be cats can be on them indefinately..yes its not ideal but neither is a babe with mild crf and doesnt eat...perhaps this is a medication that will need to be repeated.
RE the pork..there is/was some old story or something about cats shouldnt be fed on pork (even healthy ones) so i'll have to go and see if i can remember or look that one up for you as its a vague dot in the back of my head. I'm trying to remember about insulin aswell coz i cant remember if porcine insulin is or isnt ok for cats (not that insulin is anything to do with clapton but there was something about pork there too im sure)
He said the injection should last a month. I got mixed messages from him though. On one hand, he said he won't do more bloods yet and other the other, saying poor quality of life is no life and its not fair to an animal to keep it going if it feels unwell all the time. He described creatanine as the day after a bad hangover when yo feel you need to eat but when you smell the food, you feel sick.
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Tricky one Mark - fingers crossed it is that inflammation in his mouth that is causing the issue, and not the CRF - although tricky if the vet wont do anything about it anyway. Not sure what else you can try really, you could just pop in and ask for the syringes and fluids - although it is something that most cats dont tolerate, you might be best asking for something to put in his normal water instead - my vet did say they dont tend to drink it then though. i have read the same about pork, there is something beginning with t that is why you shouldnt' feed, but hte list is at work.
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I know clapton woldn't let me feed him with a syringe. He doesn't even like being picked up and he gets really upset if you touch his mouth.
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i have read the same about pork, there is something beginning with t that is why you shouldnt' feed, but hte list is at work.
I think that might be the parasite I referred to in the other thread in General, Desley. I can't remember the name but I think there is a parasite that can be in pork that is a potential problem and I have a feeling it might begin with T! I never give raw pork but am happy to let Mosi have his hi life pork and game as he likes it and it's not caused him any problems so far. Bozita also contains pork. Of course, I'm always prepared to change my mind!
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can you give Clapton pills? A quick whoosh down the throat might piss him off for a bit, but better than drops in food etc. If he likes the Tesco nosh, why not stick to that? Or a/d. Ok it's not perfect for his condition but it's better than not eating.
Am I utterly wrong in thinking that if he's on Fortekor it gives you a bit more scope to feed less 'suitable' (ie designed for kidneys like K/d) food? If he won't eat k/d minced chicken, no point in trying the other k/d which is solid muck.
If his mouth is sore, shouldn't that be treated? If that vet won't, is there another in the area? having said that, won't the steroids help any mouth inflammation?
Beef is a strange one - the l/d is beef (now pork) and with Hills very dodgy but quite extensive testing on liver damaged cats, you'd think they'd avoid an ingredient that's actively harmful. At the risk of having the phone slammed down on me, I'll try to ask the co again. However my vet won't ring up their vets department which is really what's required to find out what's best for kidney and liver patient cats ("it's her again, on the subject of food SIGH") but would like to know why Hills moved from beef l/d to pork l/d. I'd assumed it was for cost reasons, but would be good to know if it was for clinical reasons. (Pork can contain tapeworm for humans? Is that it?)
Swamp's doing well on it, but maybe it's not designed for long term use??
Plus need to find out what's in their k/d minced chicken and if that formula's changing too.
Hope Clapton's Tesco jelly's going down well today anyhow. My friend in France kept her cat pretty much on steroids for 2 years btw (she was old and the vet was tut-tutting as well). But she still had a quality of life and my friend made the decision to keep her going on steroids & the vet respected the decision in the end.
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me again. Swampy's going on to Fortekor. He has creatinine 182 (177 in Jan), urea 9.4 (normal in Jan) and urine concentration of 10.16. He's 15 yrs old. No idea how bad those figures are? Vet says he is checking with Novartis but thinks it's not contra-indicated for liver disease but understands my concern. He also says he will try to check on the food suitability thing and will let me know IF he remembers !! very vague but nice guy!
I asked about beef and pork and btw he says it depends on the cut/the quality of the meat but that generally for kidneys, chicken is better. says the big cos test and manipulate ingredients so it's not like us feeding beef or pork we buy in the supermarket. If I hear anything more, will post.
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me again. Swampy's going on to Fortekor. He has creatinine 182 (177 in Jan), urea 9.4 (normal in Jan) and urine concentration of 10.16. He's 15 yrs old. No idea how bad those figures are?
I
The lab figures I have show 80-180 is normal range for creatinine and 4 to 12 is normal range for urea, so based on those figures (bearing in mind, labs differ slightly in their 'normal' ranges) Swampy's urea looks still in normal range, creatinine just over the high side of normal. The urine gravity figure should probably read 1.016 - and normal is between 1.015 to 1.05 - so again within normal range. So those figures look pretty good for his age!
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I asked for a copy of Clapton's last readings from 2 months ago which were a slight improvement on the previous ones.
Urea 20.2
Crea 300
These seem quite high compared to Swampy's
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I asked for a copy of Clapton's last readings from 2 months ago which were a slight improvement on the previous ones.
Urea 20.2
Crea 300
These seem quite high compared to Swampy's
Was he on fortekor when the bloods showed an improvement Mark? They are a bit better than my Suzie's - urea 26.5 and creatinine 359. Shame, Clapton's relatively young isnt he? You could ask your vet about subcutaneous fluids that you give at home, to rehydrate and help the kidneys. Would Clapton let you inject him to do this?
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He had been on Fortekor for about 3 months when they were taken - I don't have the readings for last november when he was diagnosed but the ones I posted were "marginally improved" readings.
I hate the idea of putting needles in him - OH would forbid it. The vet suggested keeping him in for 24hrs for rehydration next month if no improvement. Also, after the improvement in eating yesterday, He has hardly eaten today but it could be to do with the fact that we had 2 people clearing the garden today and that kind of thing always upsets him.
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Maybe the vet could rehydrate Clapton as Gillian suggests; Swampy's had both reydr methods: he didn't enjoy it with a needle under the skin but it's better than nothing if Clapton's dehydrated - although in hospital rehydration's going to work a lot better, but then you have the whole hospital trauma and he sounds nervy. Does he drink tons of water?
Gillian - thanks for the readings info. I'm not going to rush the decision because my vet's vague and changes his mind so unless things are very urgent, I usually wait until he's suggested them at least twice! He def told me Swampy's urine (dipstick) was 10.16 and Max's 10.35 which was better - although that's not a surprise cos the Max just doesn't drink - I have to add water to his i/d nosh. He thinks that we must catch Swampy's kidney problem early as if it gets worse, so will his liver. No news yet on whether Fortekor will affect his liver or how and there's nothing on the links contra-indicating it, unlike with Istin (for bp) which made his ALT rise in a week. I think he suggested every cat could react differently. Has there been any liver blood result change on Fortekor with Clapton, Mark? So difficult when being off food can be caused by liver or kidney to know which it is.
Scuse me but you aren't S African are you Gillian (the way you used the word 'shame'?) - where I'm originally from and my boys lived for 8 years, happy in a sunny catrun!
I've contacted Hills to ask about what food/s etc are appropriate if k/d's no good and will see what they say if they do reply. If they don't will ring up and ask them to call my vet - because he's said he'll do it but he'll forget :Crazy:
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I would prefer to try glucose/water before needles. Surely there must be some kind of electrolyte drink that cats can have?
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He had been on Fortekor for about 3 months when they were taken - I don't have the readings for last november when he was diagnosed but the ones I posted were "marginally improved" readings.
I hate the idea of putting needles in him - OH would forbid it. The vet suggested keeping him in for 24hrs for rehydration next month if no improvement. Also, after the improvement in eating yesterday, He has hardly eaten today but it could be to do with the fact that we had 2 people clearing the garden today and that kind of thing always upsets him.
So maybe the fortekor is having a good effect then and hopefully that will continue. I know what you mean about sticking needles into them, and at some point, I'm going to have to face that with Suzie. From looking at the felinecrf site and seeing what others in the same situation on the felinecrf support group do, I'm pretty convinced about using fluids at home, if I can get over the needle thing! :scared: It seems to be a more common form of treatment in the US than here.
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Scuse me but you aren't S African are you Gillian (the way you used the word 'shame'?) - where I'm originally from and my boys lived for 8 years, happy in a sunny catrun!
Nope, but did go out with a S African guy once - does that count?!! ;D I love the accent!
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you must have picked up the 'shame' bit from him then! ;)
Heard back from vet on the nosh for sensitive tums plus kidney probs - Hills suggest d/d which is made from venison and is low in phosphorus, if k/d isn't accepted or vomited.
They are now saying that changed from l/d beef to pork as couldn't be sure of the future supply of the high spec beef they used. I wonder what's in the cans I've got in that case?!
Sounds like they want me to ditch the stash under the bed and try Swamp on k/d or d/d - this afternoon he would only eat i/d (just to simplify matters: I had to apologise to the vet's nurse cos she has to ring - punters can't talk directly to Hills vets or even email or write to them :Crazy:). Started noshing his l/d and heave-ho'd on the plate so now he's phobic about eating there and off that plate. Could be a long weekend.
Wonder just how bad i/d is for liver/kidney/seniors as they do like it a lot.
How's Clapton? Is he called after Eric?! Oh btw Hills said Swampy's the only cat in the entire world to refuse the pork l/d. Well, actually no.....there are a few on this forum too. They can't have asked the right cats.
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Well I have tried a lot of Hills various wet foods and none of mine will touch any of them. Clapton was named by SNIP (Society to Neuter Islington's pussies) as they ran out of names and called the cats after where they were found. Clapton was found in Clapton Road in Hackney ;D
I will look into getting some D/D - I have so many catfoods in the cupboard!
If you PM me your address, I will post you a can of K/D for swampy to try - I have cans of K/D and another dutch brand of low-phos that have gone to waste.
BTW - regardless of what the vet says, I still think it's simpler and the cats are happier if you give them what they like and slip some binders in - I put some in clapton's food tonight - he didn't even know it was there ;D
Check this link - they have other renal food I haven't tried like Purina & Leo. Also Binders and a renal support liquid
http://www.bestpetpharmacy.co.uk/search_results.asp?sec=154&category=Renal
Edit - probably not the cheapest - I just googled kaminox and it's £29 from VetUK (£38 from Bestpetpharmacy!)
2nd edit ;D
I am going to order these Hills K/D pouches of chunks in gravy - special offer price 36 for £16.50 - at lot cheaper than the cans!
http://www.nutrecare.co.uk/search.asp?prod_id=1932&search=renal&offset=24&grpid=1932#prod_anchor
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Surely there must be some kind of electrolyte drink that cats can have?
Yes there is its called Lectade or you can use a human one, my chemist only sells blackcurrent flavour so i have Lectade in stock. Its wise to have a bowl of plain water down aswell as the lectade so if he wont drink the baited bowl he wont get dehydrated ;D
Hills just seem to pluck foods out of the air, d/d is no more specific for CRF then using a low phos chicken based food. :-: :shify:
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my vet said that in her experience, cats dont drink water with the electrolytes in it, which is why Pebbles had sub-q fluids at the vets instead. I did try syringing normal water into her, but that wasn't that successful!!
Food and health issues are a tricky one - I do wish I had been on here sooner with Snowy, she had raised liver enzymes and I just put up with months of sickness and diarrhea cos the vet kept dismissing it as being nothing (we had locum vets then and they didn't seem that helpful compared to my vet now), so I just fed her what she would eat, and tuna and cat milk to help her weight - which now, seems like one of the worst thigns I could have given her!! It is better for them to eat something, however bad for their organs, than not eat though.
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He seems to be stabilizing after the steroids. The 1st evening, he ate like mad then the appetite went. I think its partly to do with me being strict about him having the fortekor every day now as well. He actually begged for breakfast this morning - I can't remember the last time he did that (and he had 2 pouches! ). He seems keen on asda senior which is in gravy so that helps moisture-wise. Fingers crossed, he is a lot happier now. I am going to order the 36 pouches of Hill's k/d chunks in gravy (hope its not another £18 down the drain)
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i am glad he seems to be stabilizing. Did you ever get round to using hte Slippery Elm Bark?
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Morning all! Mark - thank you so much for your offer of k/d. However Hills have sent me some samples and a free tray of d/d (their new product). IF the beasties won't eat it, I'll post and maybe I can send you some for Hackney's finest to try :) I'm so glad he's eating.
Max ate his i/d sooo fast this am that it all came up on my slippers. They love it. Tried k/d minced chicken at the weekend on saturday and they liked it. However I am getting nervous about what's in all the foods and just how different they really are. I think (what do others think?) I will give Swamp the l/d he likes, esp if he's going on to Fortekor, and mix in some k/d or d/d (if he'll eat venison!) some days too for when the l/d runs out or I'm left with the cans of not nice l/d. The quality control seems to be recognised as an issue - the vet nurse told me that was why they changed to pork as I've said.
Have you rung Hills customer services, Mark? they are quite good with their free samples if you explain that the situation is difficult. They'll also take back anything you've bought and Clapton won't eat and give you a refund. Maybe your vet can give you some pouches as samples? (mine does).
My 2 have both lost 100g over the weekend despite eating ok. I wondered if the k/d chook food was less calorific perhaps. It certainly looks and smells like a whiskas sort of food - pongs.
Good luck today.
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i am glad he seems to be stabilizing. Did you ever get round to using hte Slippery Elm Bark?
He doesn't seem to be "gurgling" any more. I will keep an eye and add it if he seems off - but at the moment, he's eating OK (not 100% - he hasn't eaten yet today)
I spoke to the vet about slippery elm and he said he thinks it comes under the "won't do any harm category"
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Morning all! Mark - thank you so much for your offer of k/d. However Hills have sent me some samples and a free tray of d/d (their new product). IF the beasties won't eat it, I'll post and maybe I can send you some for Hackney's finest to try :) I'm so glad he's eating.
Max ate his i/d sooo fast this am that it all came up on my slippers. They love it. Tried k/d minced chicken at the weekend on saturday and they liked it. However I am getting nervous about what's in all the foods and just how different they really are. I think (what do others think?) I will give Swamp the l/d he likes, esp if he's going on to Fortekor, and mix in some k/d or d/d (if he'll eat venison!) some days too for when the l/d runs out or I'm left with the cans of not nice l/d. The quality control seems to be recognised as an issue - the vet nurse told me that was why they changed to pork as I've said.
Have you rung Hills customer services, Mark? they are quite good with their free samples if you explain that the situation is difficult. They'll also take back anything you've bought and Clapton won't eat and give you a refund. Maybe your vet can give you some pouches as samples? (mine does).
My 2 have both lost 100g over the weekend despite eating ok. I wondered if the k/d chook food was less calorific perhaps. It certainly looks and smells like a whiskas sort of food - pongs.
Good luck today.
Glad they are eating something. I will probably order the 36 pouches for £15.50 as clapton goes more for the "chunks in gravy" or "chunks in Jelly" type food thesedays (odd because he was always a supermeat boy)
Thanks for te offer! ;D
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Is he eating any better since throwing up some hairballs?
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Nothing - still under the sofa - just the defurrum.
I have some chicken to cook later - I'm sure he will want some ;D
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Still haven't heard back from the vet on Fortekor's effect on sensitive livers.
I wouldn't bother with d/d Mark. Swampy thinks it's sort of ok, Max thinks it's great, but looking at the Hills America website (which has a letter from their MD promising their foods are safe!) it has the highest protein, fat, sodium and phosphorus. That could be good quality protein though cos it's venison which people with gout etc eat don't they?! ??
Anyhow having read that I am a bit curious as to why they suggested d/d as Swamp has liver, start of kidney probs and high bp so it really doesn't look suitable. It is very high in fibre and also has the lowest taurine of the foods. Maybe I'm missing something as i/d (so I was told) isn't meant to be a long term solution if kidneys are a bit iffy, but its better on the nutrient contents, even in fat and has the highest calcium for oldies - Max is a bit arthritic so isn't that good?
I'm using the dry matter % print out from their website www.hillspet.com. I am going to have another go at using Excel (ha ha) and do a spreadsheet and ask the vet ok WHICH NOSH!!! L/d and k/d come out ok - the chicken k/d has by far the lowest phosphorus (0.38 as opposed to the others which are similar - l/d's 0.68 and i/d's 0.71...the new d/d is at 0.73).
Which are the must haves or must not have nutrients then? (Protein I know can be high or low quality so % can be misleading).
I seem to remember being told Swampy needed taurine and potassium?!
Plus only l/d has L-carnitine, zinc, vitamin K and Arginine - wassat? No figures for omega 3 fatty acids. If they really need those and they aren't in the food, can they be given as supplements?
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Don't ask me I'm :Crazy: re prescription food. I understand protein is OK if high quality, ie egg, fish, chicken (not pork, beef etc). As for added vits, I think they make half of them up :-:
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Which are the must haves or must not have nutrients then? (Protein I know can be high or low quality so % can be misleading).
I seem to remember being told Swampy needed taurine and potassium?!
Plus only l/d has L-carnitine, zinc, vitamin K and Arginine - wassat? No figures for omega 3 fatty acids. If they really need those and they aren't in the food, can they be given as supplements?
Carnitine and Arginine are present in all meats, so in theory if the presciription food is meat based it should contain them. Cats have a high need for arginine, bit like they do for taurine. Again taurine is present in all meats. A lot of these ingredients have to be added to cat foods simply because they were lost in the processing! Again, omega 3's would normally come from the fat in meat offal etc.
Always seems crazy to me - they have the meat with all these necessary nutrients in - then they process it to within an inch of its life, and add back in the nutrients that were lost in processing :Crazy:
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Apologies for this long post and going on about diet, but this seemed the right place to post my concerns. Thank you for explaining the nutrient thing.
Gillian, I am very inclined to leave the Swampcat on l/d (the nicer cans) and add in some minced chicken k/d - now the former's beef and the latter's chicken with some pork liver and the usual other stuff - as he eats it and his coat is good. Tum is a bit hard little football -like since his liver disease which is why I don't buy the vet's notion that his liver is now 'fine'. Over the last 3 months he's been better than he was in January except for the rise in urea and a bit of creatinine. He still has his bad days and I'm under no illusions that the kidneys will get worse and his liver could go again cos it does with cholangiohep in many cases.
I'm concerned though with what Mark's vet said about beef and pork; my vet isn't a nutritionist but says that not all beef/pork are that bad, depends on the cut. Hills of course say they'd never produce a (processed) food that wasn't tested and would be harmful. It is curious that they chose beef (and now pork) for liver patients, chicken and pork liver for CRF patients on wet food and use chicken more in their dry foods. Then again, they cut beef because could not guarantee the right quality. Who to believe?!
then they push d/d at me - one reason could be is that as a new product it won't change and they know how I/the cats react to changes in food! - but it looks not so good for kidneys or liver.
Max I would like to leave on i/d (which is now all turkey I think, the American site has cut the chicken from its ingredients) and give him some k/d chicken as 'pudding'.
I may gradually phase in the k/d as the main food although as it's got bits in it, Swamp finds it a bit harder to eat - so on his iffy days, he's going to want a 'lick' food.
The beef l/d has unquestionably helped his liver recover gradually, along with the pills. I wonder if it can be implicated in the sudden rise in urea or if it's just a coincidence. I first took Swamp for a geriatric blood test as he was drinking so much and doing copious pees but the bloods then for kidney function were normal. (I'd thought it was his kidneys). That was last September; his creatinine hasn't moved too far upscale - more the urea.
Sorry for the long post - wondered how important the actual nutrients are or are the ingredients even more crucial ? ie fat's low, phosphorus low etc but it's beef or pork so avoid.
Btw before l/d, cats were given the same Hills food as CRF when had liver disease.
I'd really like to know what you think about my Great Food Strategy! Max has also got what the vet calls 'early renal failure'; I think he could be worse than his urinalysis showed as it's more concentrated as he doesn't drink much at all.
Phew! How is Mr C doing today Mark and was the out of date Katalax a big, middling or small success :wow: Btw minced chook k/d is NOT constipating! :)
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Well I am feeding Tesco pouches at the moment as he is actually eating them - even though I am topping them up with water and giving them a stir before dishing up! - He is on pouch 4 today :-:
I am trying to encourange him to eat senior food which apparently is the next best thing to prescription. I didn't used the out of date Katalax as I found an in-date tube of defurrum and it seems to have helped. He loves it :Luv:
I will try the k/d pouches but as the vet said, at the moment, keeping the calories up is the main thing - so he gets what he will eat. A bit of chicken a bit of fish and whatever pouches he wants :Luv:
PS - after advice on here, I am making sure he takes the fortekor every day to avoid the creatanine "rollercoaster"
He will take it as a suppository if need be :evillaugh: (just joking)
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My vet rang. Swampy is to start his Fortekor tomorrow so I'm pretty nervous. I hope it doesn't have side effects. The drug co said it's half metabolised by the liver and half the kidneys. Phew. Max may go on it too.
I chatted to him about the food thing. He said that Hills are def the best, not just cos he makes money out of them! Plus their beef, pork etc is processed so it's not the same as giving meat that you've bought, which he would not suggest doing (beef or pork). His fav food for these kind of illnesses is k/d.
Does anyone know how long Hills has had the minced chicken k/d out for and if it's always had pork liver in it? After the l/d debacle, I hope that it soon doesn't become minced pork liver k/d........ :sick:
Yes when Swamp was so ill the vet said any senior food if he wouldn't eat prescription l/d or k/d. Anything that's nice and stays down. He claims fortekor is 'palatable' so I just laughed.
Do you know if you can give it any time or is with food, before food, after food good?
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Fortekor does get eaten in food easily, as long as its something tasty :evillaugh:
Mark, im glad clapton is eating after his hairball day, hopefully it was just that making him feel crappy
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Glad his Lordship is eating today Mark it must make him feel better love him and give you a little less stress
Take care
x
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My vet rang. Swampy is to start his Fortekor tomorrow so I'm pretty nervous. I hope it doesn't have side effects. The drug co said it's half metabolised by the liver and half the kidneys. Phew. Max may go on it too.
I chatted to him about the food thing. He said that Hills are def the best, not just cos he makes money out of them! Plus their beef, pork etc is processed so it's not the same as giving meat that you've bought, which he would not suggest doing (beef or pork). His fav food for these kind of illnesses is k/d.
Does anyone know how long Hills has had the minced chicken k/d out for and if it's always had pork liver in it? After the l/d debacle, I hope that it soon doesn't become minced pork liver k/d........ :sick:
Yes when Swamp was so ill the vet said any senior food if he wouldn't eat prescription l/d or k/d. Anything that's nice and stays down. He claims fortekor is 'palatable' so I just laughed.
Do you know if you can give it any time or is with food, before food, after food good?
I would say with food as I guess any med is better. They are supposed to be palatable so you may find swamp will just eat it anyway ;D. Don't forget that for the 1st week (I think) creatanine levels are actually elevated so he may feel a bit crap until it kicks in. As I have found, its best to make sure they have it every day. I wish I had the guts to ask my vet for a prescription so I can get it 1/2 price from vetuk - maybe you get on better with your vet. Apparently, you can buy large packs - not sure if vetuk sell them - my vet says they can only get 28's (costs me about £22 for 28 days >:( )
So Clapton is OK at the moment but Willow just came down to the basement & peed behind the TV on the wires..............here we go
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The Fortekor is not too bad palatability wise, Tiggy ate one on it's own once, all other times it was hidden in various treats, it certainly doesn't taste unpleasant though which is a good thing. As far as I know it can be given at any time with or without food, my vet never told me any different.
Mark With your vet prescription issue why don't you ask the receptionist rather than the vet, it took me ages to pluck up the courage to ask but my vet was fine about it. They even used to ask me if I needed another prescription every time I went in. Or you could ask over the phone rather than face to face if that would be easier. Just say that someone has told you you can order the meds online and you find it really difficult to get to the surgery in opening hours or something like that.
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I am a chicken Helen.
Another option, I was just looking at Novartis website and they say dosage is 1/2 a tablet up to 5kg body weight - I need to check but I'm sure clappy only weighs 5kg. Imagine If I get it 1/2 price AND give 1/2 tablet - that would save me £15 a month (I think :Crazy: ) = £180 a year!!
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Double check the strength mark, he may have 2.5mg prescribed in which case a whole one would be right. At work we use the 5mg and give a half.
Go on be brave and ask for a prescription!
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I just looked at novartis site again and they were referring to Fortekor 5 - Thanks for that.
I'm glad Clapton isn't any heavier otherwise it would cost me £44 a month for meds :Crazy:
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for some reason Swampy's not been snotty for 2 days and is eating like a pig and purring like a tractor so I'm going to wait until monday before starting, esp if he's going to feel a bit sick at first. The vet wants to do a blood test for his liver function one week after starting. Not a good idea then to start him off on a thurs or friday. Plus I don't want to mess with him having a few days feeling great.
My vet knew nothing about the raised levels of creatinine to start out with (although it's in the Novartis stuff isn't it) - just says he's never seen a cat with side effects.
How long before the creatinine goes down?
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I think they are a bit vague. Possibly a few days. I thik it also says "may" increase levels. Not very clear info. Hopefully he will be fine with it.
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thanks Mark. got my nose bitten for nosh at 5.30am today and duly fed Swampa at 6.30 - then it all came up again. So def not starting until next week.
How is Clapton? Hope your TV survives the Willow onslaught. Was it jealousy or a comment on the quality of the programmes?!
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I felt terrible as when I went back an hour later to deal with it, I couldn't find anything. However, She has reoffended in the dining room so I don't feel bad now >:(
Clapton is OK at the moment. He had a funny day as he sleeps on the sofa in the basement. I had shoved a cat carrier in a recess over the sofa as I need it next week for kylie &willow (it's only a soft holdall type) The holdall had fallen down and must have landed on him in the night. He was upstairs in the kitchen on Willows bed and she was on another of her beds (a 50p cushion from a charity shop last week! ;D ) He was sleeping most of the morning but I opened his favourite food - Tesco salmon & prawns in jelly pouch mixed with extra water. He lapped it up. Went downstairs, had a run round the garden and is curled up next to me purring now :Luv:
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Day One of Fortekor. The victims are asleep. Are there any common side effects? My vet suggested lethargy? I had to give Max more to eat 1 hr after his pill and he was making a horrible yowling noise like he hadn't eaten this am (he had).
Very nervous! Although I know with Swampy that if it does hit his liver, it won't be for a day or 3.
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Not that I know of. As the creatinine levels "may" increase at the beginning, he may be a bit precious about food for a few days. Clapton has been eating well until today. He ate for the 1st time at 11.30 (and I was up at 5am!)
I was telling OH that I am being strict about no missed days on tabs seems to be helping and was informed that a pill was found next to claptons bowl yesterday morning and binned! >:(
Its funny but I passed boots in broadstairs on saturday and there was a poster saying 50% of people don't take tablets properly which could affect their effectiveness.
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Well Swamp is being a bit off his food (not Max though) and vomited 4 times while I was out, including the Zentonil tablet. I hope he settles down because there's the loooong weekend with no vet coming up. I regret trying him out on 'other' foods like k/d and think I'm going to retry to just feed him the l/d but he may have other ideas of course. He likes that chicken k/d but it does come up quite easily when he's snotty and swallowing muck or feeling a bit off.
I was a bit confused by the package insert of Novartis's which says it works best with advanced kidney disease. Novartis also told my vet that it's metabolised half in the liver and half kidneys, yet the package insert says that's in dogs - cats it's 100% liver. Bit worrying when they don't know their own product!
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confusing isn't it. Clapton has started to just eat in the evening. Its really odd but its almost as if he gets his appetite back when the fortekor wears off. He has had a bowl of chicken + 1 pouch so far but he usually makes up his days food by bedtime - really odd.
I read an article about kidney disease in dogs. It said that k/d diets could cause protein deficiencies :Crazy:
So much information. I just try to make him eat the best things but not worry as long as he's eating something.
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Weird - yesterday it gave them both the munchies. Today more normal eating. A bit agitated though; I got woken up at 5am and had to get up and feed as they wouldn't calm down.
Now mega sleep.
I don't want to start another thread but am becoming increasingly concerned that Swampy may be a bit or substantially deaf after his liver disease. He doesn't respond to noise like he used to. Can this happen? How can I test definitively? I don't want to put the wee lad through any more. He didn't hear me come into the room yesterday although was wide awake which is most unusual. I'm noticing that he's responding to visual stimuli but not really his name being called or me making silly noises or the TV, whereas he used to.
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I don't know the first thing about liver disease. It might be worth starting a new thread so more likely to be read.
Still can't get my boy to eat all day. As long as he gets the goodness, I'm sure its fine. He is due for worming next week so I will ask the vet.
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hope he eats tonight Mark. It's pretty hot. Maybe that's making him lethargic.
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He's eaten 1.5 pouches tonight and thats it. He doesn't seem to be drinking much either. Also, his breath smelled sweet which is really odd, a bit like pear drops.
Let see what tomorrow brings. I am thinking of registering him next door again and explaining to my other vet that the journey stresses him.
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He's eaten 1.5 pouches tonight and thats it. He doesn't seem to be drinking much either. Also, his breath smelled sweet which is really odd, a bit like pear drops.
Let see what tomorrow brings. I am thinking of registering him next door again and explaining to my other vet that the journey stresses him.
Edit - I made the mistake o googling breath pear drops and the top item was cat diabetes. I will not panic but monitor.......
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Fingers crossed it isn't Mark.
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How is he today Mark............hope he is a little better
xx
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yup, googling can be so helpful but can also be like having a headache and reading the medical symptoms encyclopaedia can't it! 1 1/2 pouches isn't too bad is it? My vet always says that if they can keep their weight stable that's a very good sign. Would he not be drinking tons if he had diabetes? And if his kidneys were struggling?
I asked my vet how much food was essential to get down every day and he said only a very small amount really.
Hope the cooler, rainier weather brings back an appetite.
My vet was quite keen that mine take Fortekor with breakfast btw. I'll ask him again on tuesday if he's up to concentrating (as I am going to ask about Swampa's eyes, ears and bp too!).
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Well he decided to hop on the bed and snuggle up at 5am (I didn't get to sleep til 1am) so that was me awake for the day. He has already eaten as much today as he ate yesterday ;D. I can't smell anything on his breath. There is a chance that what I smelled was "Surf Tropical" as I washed the floor around the TV last night after Willows 3rd offence of the day! - he may have walked on it. Anyway, he has been playing in the garden and is curled up on a garden chair right now so all is well (at the moment) - I will keep a close eye on him.
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oh pleased about that Mark at least he has a full tummy and is resting.... shall i fedex you some rather large matches for today though :Crazy: :Crazy: :Crazy: :Crazy: :Crazy::evillaugh: :evillaugh: :evillaugh: :evillaugh:
xx
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Mark (or anyone else with a cat on Fortekor) - have you ever noticed any increased agitation? Max is as calm as ever but Swampy is really agitated. He's had loads of blood tests since september, but this morning the vet had to stop trying as he just wouldn't co-operate, either in his neck (usual place) or his leg. Growling, biting and constant jerking. We try again on thurs am as have got to get the latest readings on kidneys and liver.
He doesn't sleep as much or as restfully either.
Vet was hopeless on nutrition; said to go for the one with the lowest phosphorus and preferably consult a vet nutritionist - er, how do I do that?! I told him the k/d chicken is considered nice nosh but often makes him sick when he's snotty as has bits in it (l/d is stickier so comes up less; last night he had almost nothing by the blood test cut off time as vomited up his k/d). I feel the decision's bounced back at me.
Oh and for those on i/d cans, Hills latest batch of 85g cans are different - much drier, lighter, smell different - than the other tray I've just finished which has the same expiry date. >:(
That's why I think I am going to stick to a l/d and k/d nosh mix as far as possible cos I KNOW they will change the k/d chicken at some point..... >:( >:(
k/d has 0.38 dry matter phosphorus and l/d has 0.6 phosphorus, but is lower in sodium (thinking high bp) and fat (a bit).
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I would say the oposite. Clapton sleeps a lot and is quite lethargic. As for vet trips, clapton doesn't struggle. He goes limp like a ragdoll - he has always done that.
I wish I could get him to eat the k/d but he's not interested.
I am going to order him some k/d pouches today from Nutrecare - special offer, £13.95 for 36 pouches. They also have i/d and c/d pouches on offer.
Edit - the c/d is £13.95 but the k/d is £16.50 - I ordered the wrong ones >:( - they were very helpful on the phone and sorted it ;D
http://www.nutrecare.co.uk/prod5.asp?prod_id=1932&id=144&grpid=1932&msg=&offset=
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the plot thickens then....maybe it's start up troubles or linked to his deafness?!
Does Clapton have to eat wet food? I only ask as the Royal Canin senior kidney and osteo for neutered cats over 10 yrs old (I'm not making this up!!) is a dry food that mine loved. They only stopped it when Swamp got his liver disease and vomited up any dry food. I can send you enough for a couple of meals if you like? It's what french vets use routinely for all older cats but here they have to look it up in their list and scratch their heads. Anyhow just let me know if you'd like some!
Otherwise good luck with the pouches. Mine don't care for those as they have bits in them which need chewing and their teeth aren't great.
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Thanks but Clapton only has about 2 teeth left so rejects dry food. I have heard of other cats with no teeth eating dry but he won't. He has always eaten wet so I think it would be hard to change him. Its a shame as the k/d dry works out so much cheaper. Also I hate everything about wet food. The Smell, Sticking like glue to bowls, flies in the summer etc >:(
I have caught him eating some in the garden at times but he won't admit to eating it :evillaugh:
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Mark (or anyone else with a cat on Fortekor) - have you ever noticed any increased agitation? Max is as calm as ever but Swampy is really agitated. He's had loads of blood tests since september, but this morning the vet had to stop trying as he just wouldn't co-operate, either in his neck (usual place) or his leg. Growling, biting and constant jerking. We try again on thurs am as have got to get the latest readings on kidneys and liver.
He doesn't sleep as much or as restfully either.
Has your vet checked his blood pressure? Its not uncommon for CRF cats to develope high blood pressure which would make him quite restless due to headaches etc.
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He has high bp but was unable to take Istin without his liver enzymes going right up again. The vet didn't take his bp yesterday, prob just as well as he was hyper agitated. I don't think Fortekor can raise bp - doesn't it normally lower it a tiny bit?
In an ideal world, if he just had kidney issues he'd be on Istin. Even 1/8th tablet though sent his ALT up 30 points in a week and he started vomiting. If his bp does go sky high, we'll have to give him a teeeeny dose. The vet looked in his eyes and said there's deterioration but not too bad at the moment.
We have to go again tomorrow to try to get blood and I'll hopefully ask him again. Vet was very busy and distracted yesterday. Hope the nurse Swamp knows is on duty as he may then be a bit calmer.
Otherwise can they take bloods at home as may have to pay for a home visit :(
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they took Swamp away from me this am and banished me to the waiting room. The needle broke in his neck (he jerked his head so violently) so they had to stem the flow and try the other side and finally got some out of him. Vet thinks it's cos he's now deaf as Swampcat has had about 25 neck blood tests done in the last few years, none with any bother at all. He's fine now; came home and had a good nosh and his fortekor and destolit. Results tomorrow or Friday; I'm so hoping it's all ok as looks like future blood tests are going to be very tricky. The vet says he can't come and do them on a home visit either as needs a vet table, proper lights etc. The nice nurse he liked has left too which I'm sure doesn't help as he never minded when she held him tightly.
We did NOT do his bp......prob would have been about 400.
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sorry to hear that Clapton is still poorly . Long time since he had his teeth out poor mite.
I noticed some way back in this thread that when you stopped the fortekor? his appetite picked up dramatically The drug must be making him feel very unwell not to eat . I always wonder how unwell they feel when we give them all these pills and jabs etc . My inclination would be to get a second opinion perhaps from a nutritionist or just take him off the drug and monitor closely for a week or two. If his appetite picks up dramatically his health and well being is sure to do so also I should have thought. have you ever looked at giving him natural foods ? there is a specially prepared and fomulated soft minced food but I cannot remember the name. It is mail order but is only made from natural 100% foods meat fish etc .
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After reading advice on here, I realised that because clapton was missing days here & there, his levels were rollercoasting. I have made sure he gets it every day and his appetite is much better. He has gone off fish & chicken which the vet advised so I am giving him senior food woith the odd tesco pouch which he likes. I also received a parcel of k/d chunks in gravy today so I am keeping my fingers crossed he takes to it. I have tried Applaws, Denes etc with no luck. He seems to like his Whiskas senior. He is a lot happier now which is the main thing. We have decided not to go for any treatment that will make him unhappy. The idea of leaving him in the vets for 24hrs with a needle in him is a no-no - so going for quality before quantity - Its hard but we are sticking to it.
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good for you . I'm sure he will be a lot happier at home with you and familiar smells and surroundings . Something I recently tried my two on for a change was prawns wow they don't last a second! I hardly have time to defrost them in a glass of warm water before they have scoffed them. Makes a nice change for them occasionaly but their food bill has gone through the roof especially when I give them king prawns lol
I do not spoil my cats... I do not spoil my cats.... I do no............... :rofl:
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I will try them but he's not really a fish type cat - he has even stopped eating his daily coley.
I will have a look in Iceland next time I'm in Faversham as I think prawns & shrimps etc are cheap there - funny as I live 5 minutes walk from Whitstable harbour but they are really expensive
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thank ya lucky stars we are not talking about crabs ! I have been watching the dangerous jobs on tv !
I usually get a small cheap frozen bag from the local co-op they always seem to be on offer. If they are copped (copped ?) :-: fine they are very soft and easy to swallow.Its funny how we always give our cats cooked food when in the wild they only eat everything raw !.... :-:
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Well I went out this pm and wanted to get clapton good & hungry to try out his new k/d chunks in gravy. He ate 1/2 then came looking for someting different. I have just mixed in a bit on whiskas senior and he's eating. I really thought it was going to be another £20 down the drain. I have tried every k/d food going and have loads in the cupboard >:(
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the more I switch around, the fussier they seem to get, the little devils. Right now, I have Max refusing all but i/d (IS it too high in phosphorus as although it has a 50% refusal rate, that means that he'll nosh it half the time! when nothing else goes down except for stuff he thinks he's not allowed...ie small amounts left strategically on Swamp's plate aka Cat Psychology!!). Swampy's fast going off his l/d and will only nibble at it and then look around for something nicer. Which is i/d (I try not to give him that as he does eat other nosh) or k/d.
Someone on here (forgive, but I can't remember) said that they blended their k/d minced chicken because the rice bits are off putting. God forbid that Hills make it dry and solid like the old style k/d but has anyone else tried blending it and does it come out in a fashion likely to appeal to fussy felines?!
Mark I think the Fortekor has made them fussier, no question. Waiting for blood results later today or Monday as I guess the lab won't send them through for tomorrow.
It is sooo hard to stick to one suitable food when their illness means that you can't starve them, but I guess I am going to try to persevere with the l/d and k/d mix.
One i/d print out from Hills' site has the phosphorus at 71g and the other has it at 80g. I was reading a CRF site which said ideally under 100 - would that be right? K/d is 38 and is obviously the best, but if they won't eat it..... :Crazy:
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Tell me about it. Clapton has become so picky thesedays. We had a good run of him eating all day every day but today he is on hunger strike so far. He only got off the sofa 1/2 hour ago. I follwed him upstairs thinking he wanted feeding but he was just going on patrol. If he thinks I am tring to make him eat, he won't so I will hold off a bit and see if he comes to me :evillaugh: . The k/d wasn't such a success but I am going to persevere with it.
I just stopped and he ate some tesco food. He rejected the new k/d (well he licked a bit of gravy) :-[
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I'm really worried as for the first time since Swampy came home from hospital in early october, he's completely off his food. He ate 1/6th can l/d this morning but has just licked at k/d today. Normally by now (6.30pm) he would be almost at a can, which has been his daily intake for months, even when ill with the liver problem.
It has to be the Fortekor?? I'm not sure if I should take him off it tomorrow or continue until monday. If he doesn't eat tonight or tomorrow morning, I'm not giving it to him. He was doing so much better until a few days ago - I wonder if the 'creatinine rises initially' has just kicked in now after 10 days on it. I can't think of any other explanation. He is also lethargic.
Max is ok but not as hungry as I would have expected either. Yesterday the food probs started but they ate 1/4 at 11pm but so far have lost about 150g in weight in a couple of days. For Max that's prob not such a problem as for Swampy.
If this is what Fortekor does to him, it's no quality of life. I wonder if it makes the liver patients worse?? Anyhow same probs as Clapton and it's a nightmare. He's so old suddenly; missing his jump ups again. Clingy.
Any ideas anyone?! He was ok up until Friday. The blood results aren't back yet.
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Keep going until Mon and then discuss with the vet, a cat at work who started fortekor didnt seem to go off his food but then he is in a run and isnt as monitored as an at home cat.
Have you any normal cat food you can offer him, better he eats something than nothing.
Chin rubs to Swampy
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The food thing with clapton is a real issue, the vet said its not normal but ther are always exceptions to the rule. Its hard to know what to do for the best.
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what's Clapton's liver like these days (ALT etc)? I wondered if cats with dodgy or sensitive livers were susceptible. It is metabolised 100% by cats in the liver.
Did you read the FABCats' page on Fortekor, Mark? They are not quite as enthusiastic, offering other solutions which may be appropriate if Fortekor makes a cat feel grot. But the clinical trial figures on survival rates are impressive and it seems worth it IF the quality of life is maintained. They say weight gain, increased appetite.....I wonder if the reverse can't happen too, like some cats take Valium and instead of sedating, it makes them hyper?? Dunno too much about pharmacology.
My 2 woke up briefly at about 9pm to use the litter tray - having been totally out of it all day - and I managed to get a small slither of i/d down Swampy (who is now fast asleep again). Max seems hungry but won't eat anything I put in front of him. They seem to be sedated.
None of this was the case just a few days ago. I'm going to persevere tomorrow and try to speak to the vet on monday (his busiest day) but he's not one to concentrate...he will only do so when the blood results are in, which may be mon night or tues. If Swampy or Max won't eat at all, he may focus. But he's convinced that it will do them good.
does anyone know with liver patients (who have to eat), just how much do they have to eat p.d or it's dangerous?
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Mark - no fortekor today for either cat. Max is miaowing for lunch; something he's not done for quite a few days. Hmm.
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I had the same issue. I thought he took it last night but it was still in the dish. He was after breakfast as soon as I got up (clapton is a polite cat a waits for you to get up ;D ) He had it this morning so lets see what the appetite is like later. I have on pill left so don't know whether to order a repeat. I don't begrudge to £20 a month for it but if they make him feel bad, I'm not so sure. Its a difficult choice as If I don't give them he will deteriorate faster :(
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Its such a heart wrenching decision with the babies and their medication. Its like all meds I suppose like people, some it has bad side effects and others none. I know Bella is 25 but if you remember before Christmas she was very poorly and was diagnosed as having late stage CRF they put her on Fortekor, It absolutely knocked her silly and she slept for 23 and a half hours a day I gave it a few days and she just slept. I made the decision that she had little time left and with sleeping and no appetite she might as well not be here and I quickly took her off them.
They took a few days to get out of her system and she is like a kitten again. She does have the odd day where she takes herself off to the airing cupboard and I know she feels a little poorly but for the most part she is a happy little bunny who has a run around everyday if only for a few Min's a day............I'm glad on this occasion I made the decision to take Bella off them
I hope you all manage to get your babies sorted out soon
Hugs and head kisses
xx
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Yes, it's a really difficult decision but I agree, if they live longer but sleep all the time....?? The vets are fixated on how great it is. I just hope that if I decide not to keep him on them, that when the proverbial hits the fan (which it will) he's not sniffy about treating him.
His readings are only just above normal which I know means that a big % of his kidney function is gone. I wondered at what point the disease became 'advanced' and fortekor may be really essential or worth another go?
I think (I know vet doesn't agree!) Swampy was agitated and nervy when he started the pills. He's been pulling hair out from near his tail. He last did that in France after a major op and had a curative short course of cortisone to stop the nervous habit. (that worked). The vet thinks he couldn't get blood from him too easily at the vet (4 attempts over 2 days) cos he's now deaf; I'm not so sure. I think he was hyper from the pill. Then he got sedated, as did Max - who has had less side effects, but food fussiness increased and so did kipping. The vet does accept lethargy is a side effect but nothing else.
I am already chancing it with his bp as Istin sent his ALT right up. He should be on Istin as his bp is 200 odd+ at the vet's, only a bit lower when done on his tail.
I find the literature and articles are all single issued based ie your cat has high bp do this; your cat has CRF do that; liver disease do the other; there's nothing I've seen which takes account of the fact that old kittycats have multiple health issues. Then we as owners have to make life and death decisions and sometimes argue with the vets - who know a lot, but don't live with our cats do they.
Wish me luck for tomorrow!!!! Vet is so vague that I texted him about diarrhoea and he left me a nice message about Swampy's vomiting! He's a good vet and nice guy but if there was a pill for vagueness, he should self-medicate :Crazy:
Hope Clapton's eating? Do you give fortekor at about 6am, then he may eat about 11pm?! Trouble is, if he's like mine, he won't eat too much in one go. all the best. Sorry for long rant.
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I don't have a set time but as from yesterday he gets it with his breakfast - which hopefully is around 7am - but on an offday can be 7pm :evillaugh: (have to laugh - or cry)
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Hi Mark, I posted a long diatribe about what my vet said in the boiled chicken vs fish in the dishwasher thread! Basically though forgot to say, the vet thinks early morning is a good time if it's making the cat fussy about eating and lethargic as they tend to eat more before the pill (in the morning) and then at night when it's cooler and they are hungrier.
Hope Mr C noshes today.
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Latest episode.
Just got back from the vets. I told him Clapton won't eat prescription and isgoing off chicken and fish. I said he is eating some regular and some senior. The vet said he had gained more weight and looking better so if that works for him, carry on giving him whatever he wants ;D
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Whatever Clapton feels like noshing sounds a good idea. Hope he has a good appetite today :)
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He ate some breakfast. There wasn't much he fancied as he didn't like the sainsburys own. Sainsbury's don't sell whiskas senior in jelly (nor do tesco)
I found a Tesco senior pate in the back of the cupboard which he ate. I wasted 3 fortekor last night as they melted into the food so he wouldn't eat. I tried the cream cheese thing. He licked all the cheese off and left a soggy pill >:(
Anyway, I will have to get to an Asda or Morrisons to get some Whiskas senior in Jelly later (lower phos than regular)
I was pleased than he has gained another few ounces in 3 weeks ;D
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Can you not get a pill down his gob when he's offguard?! ;) I have to do that as they 'filter' out any pills from their food.
Your vet seems quite clued up on nutrition, which is unusual. I've found most leave it to the pet food company vets, which is probably ok but I would like an independent opinion too.
As for phosphorus levels, did your vet suggest what is an acceptable range per say 100g of phosphorus? Kidney diets are low (38g in the case of k/d) but what counts as too high, do you know?
If you get desperate, my friend in Yorkshire emailed to say her little guy (he had a stomach ulcer and refused to eat) has only eaten vanilla icecream for quite some weeks now. Very high in fat, but does it have any phosphorus?!!!!
Have you tried ringing the parent co of Whiskers and asking if you can buy directly from them - tell them about Clapton and you may get a good price?
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I tried giving a pill manually last night and you would have thought I was trying to kill him. If I have some ham in the house, its the best way to go. I read an article slating k/d the other day saying that there are too many carbs in it and they could end up with a protein deficiencny. I did speak to Whiskas a couple of weeks ago to get phos content of their various foods. They are owned by Masterfoods (Mars) so the personal service won't happen. The vet said that any senior food is the next best thing to prescription, apart from Chicken & fish. He's not that bad yet that I will resort to junk food. I think someting like a diet of icecream would be OK for a very old cat that refuses all else but I think clapton has a way to go so I have to make sure he gets decent food with taurine etc in it.
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you'll have to try when he's half asleep, open his mouth and voila! You 'may' get bitten though :Crazy: Fortekor's one of the easier ones though as it doesn't appear to taste too disgusting. I misfired once with Max and he duly ate it. Unless it was the one I found pouched and spat some time later.... :P
Mine are now on a mix of i/d and blended k/d. I may try some l/d too. I find it hard to believe that "one size fits all" with multiple complaints and really believe that it's so important that they enjoy food- otherwise you'll have hell feeding them, cos they don't look forward to it.
Then again, I won't be doing the real chicken thing unless I have to, as they could get seriously used to that. It must though be more digestible than any cat food as when Swampy's ALT was 1500+ he kept it down for 10 hours, whereas all cat foods came up in 1hr to 3hrs.
Hills are part of colgate palmolive but they still have customer service and some of them are helpful. I'd have a go at Whiskas/Mars, you never know.
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Well I got him some Whiskas senior in jelly in a little petshop in Faversham today (cheaper than the supermarket) and he wolfed it down, fortekor & all ;D
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have you seen that crf info forum (I'm out of the loop here, so excuse me) which suggests that in America they use sub cutaneous fluids rather than any drug. Is it just the UK where the vets love Fortekor?
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have you seen that crf info forum (I'm out of the loop here, so excuse me) which suggests that in America they use sub cutaneous fluids rather than any drug. Is it just the UK where the vets love Fortekor?
It certainly seems that way from what I've seen of the forum, although they do use fortekor or something similar in the US. Helen states on her felinecrf.org website that giving subq fluids to her cat was the reason for setting up the website. Luckily my vet was happy for me to give Suzie fluids, but she's also having fortekor.