Purrs In Our Hearts - Cat Forum UK
Cat General => General Cat Chat => Topic started by: mrwjg on December 08, 2010, 16:15:18 PM
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Hello.
I hope you can help with this situation....
We got a kitten a couple of months ago from a Polish lady - I assumed the cat was Polish as the vaccinations were Polish.
My girlfriend recently took our Kitten to the vets for a checkup and gave over the paperwork - She told the VETs the cat was Polish.
The vets said they would need to quarantine the cat because it's illegal....
We then contacted the previous owner and it was understood that the cat was british born and only the vaccinations were Polish - Trading standards (Buckingham) were now dealing with it and they refused to allow us to have our cat back and they said they had suspicion it was imported (even though ourselves and the previous owner confirmed it was not).
Recently trading standards (Luton) visited the previous owner who has the cats mother and possibly the remaining litter - trading standards told her it was not illegal to bring in a vaccination from Poland and she was allowed to keep her cats.
Trading standards Buckingham have said they do not have to follow what Luton does....
Either NONE of the cats are quarantined or ALL of them are.
This seems extremely unfair and Buckingham Trading Standards appear to be trying to save face and not back down.
They are either trying to extort over £2000 from us for the Quarantine or force us to put our new Kitten down for no reason other than we made a mistake when taking her to the vets.
Can you please help?
Thanks
Will
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what sort of help are you looking for financial or legal?
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General advice....
This situation is wrong.
We are being punished for a simple mistake and they are not being fair.
what sort of help are you looking for financial or legal?
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I dont understand this at all, how come the vaccinations are Polish ?, surely this means they must have been done in Poland which means the cat has travelled and would need to be in quarentine ? or am I missing something ? :hug:
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It would be worth trying to speak to the legal department at Cats Protection head office to see if they can give any advice. http://www.cats.org.uk/?gclid=CJjk7NqH3aUCFVBO4Qod5zXH1g I know it is sometimes difficult to get through to large concerns. I am a volunteer with a small branch. If you don't have any luck, I have heard that the head of CP is coming to our branch xmas social on Saturday so maybe we could ask him.
So it sounds as if the breeder just used vaccines imported from Poland? - I'm not sure if that is legal or not. I know they are regarded as POM (Prescription only medicines), although they aren't really drugs?
I would also speak to RCVS. I'm not sure if any vet had the right to take your property (cats are regarded as property) without your permission.
I can't get in to RCVS website right now but it is worth trying them.
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i think on the continent is is fairly common for people to do vacs themselves, I know mil used to in Italy, you can buy them over the counter
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i think on the continent is is fairly common for people to do vacs themselves, I know mil used to in Italy, you can buy them over the counter
That's what I thought - it sounds like the breeder vaccinated the kittens here on the cheap by using her own vaccines?
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What a terrible and extraordinary situation to be in. :(
I can't offer much advice I'm afraid - only perhaps you should make this as public as possible by contacting your local papers, TV/radio stations, MP etc. (It might at least serve as a warning to others seeking a cat/kitten from places other than a reputable rescue organisation - sorry if that sounds harsh.)
I really do hope you get the matter sorted and your kitten back soon.
Please keep us updated.
:hug:
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Thanks for the advice.
Yes, that's right the Polish owner bought the vaccine over the counter in Poland and administered it here.
The cat is from a litter of 3 and the fact that they're saying it's 1 rule for one county (Luton) and another for Buckingham is not right.
Trading Standards Luton informed the previous owner it was not illegal to use those vaccines she bought in Poland - that's why they said she could keep her cats.
It's really all a big mess from a simple mistake and it seems as if Buckingham Trading Standards are trying to save face by not backing down.
It would be worth trying to speak to the legal department at Cats Protection head office to see if they can give any advice. http://www.cats.org.uk/?gclid=CJjk7NqH3aUCFVBO4Qod5zXH1g I know it is sometimes difficult to get through to large concerns. I am a volunteer with a small branch. If you don't have any luck, I have heard that the head of CP is coming to our branch xmas social on Saturday so maybe we could ask him.
So it sounds as if the breeder just used vaccines imported from Poland? - I'm not sure if that is legal or not. I know they are regarded as POM (Prescription only medicines), although they aren't really drugs?
I would also speak to RCVS. I'm not sure if any vet had the right to take your property (cats are regarded as property) without your permission.
I can't get in to RCVS website right now but it is worth trying them.
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What an awful situation to be in :hug:
It's really all a big mess from a simple mistake and it seems as if Buckingham Trading Standards are trying to save face by not backing down.
I think you've hit the nail on the head there, it's either lawful or unlawful to use vaccines purchased abroad. If it's lawful then I can't see how Trading Standards Buckingham can continue to hold your kitten.
I think Jasmine's suggestion is an excellent one, get the press involved - if you have kids or grandkids (or any child relatives!) then even better, poor sad children missing their kitten 'stolen' by ridiculous double trading standards.
I really hope you can get this resolved and soon, for the sake of the poor kitten stuck in quarantine when she should be with her loving new family if nothing else :(
Just out of interest was this a pedigree kitten you purchased? I'm guessing so as it would be unusual for back street breeders knocking out moggies to care enough to vaccinate them.
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We didn't actually pay anything for her.
I wouldn't know if she's a pedigree or not.
Here's some pics:
(http://i.imgur.com/kj2Id.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/2OiRp.jpg)
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She just looks like a very cute moggie to me. I just think you were unfortunate to get a jobsworth. Did you tell the vet that only the vaccine was imported but the cat was born here? - I would really be having it out with the vet.
Apart from speaking to CP and RCVS I would also take the matter up with DEFRA http://www.defra.gov.uk/wildlife-pets/pets/travel/pets/procedures/support-info/vacci.htm
I would be making sure heads roll over this incompetence.
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What a cutie, as Mark says I would be having it out with the vet as well, I would also be getting the press involved, good luck and keep us updated :hug:
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It occurs to me that the legality of vaccines should be something that DEFRA might have responsibility for - not sure how trading standards come into it at all to be frank. Besides, if it was legal at the place of origin, then it is legal for her to have had them, and the fact she has now changed hands is irrelevant - sounds like some bureaucrat with too much time on his hands.
How are they housing her while this debate continues? If they are not providing her with suitable accommodation, then RSPCA should certainly come into the discussion. I will have a look on the DEFRA site and see what I can find.
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:(
:hug: :hug: :hug:
did you have to give them the paperwork ??
then again, hindsights a great thing :doh:
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OK, this is the best I can find - it suggests that special license must be obtained to import medication from Europe.
http://www.bsava.com/Advice/BSAVAGuidetotheUseofVeterinaryMedicines/Importingmedicines/tabid/369/Default.aspx
However even if that were the case, that would apply only to the importer (in this case, the Polish woman) not to you. You are being victimised as you already know. Would consumer affairs be of any assistance do you think?
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I would act really quickly on this. I wouldn't put anything past them including euthanasia >:(
These people hide behind rules & regulations.
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We're awaiting a reply from Buckingham Trading standards still - My girlfriend is trying to arrange the vet in Poland (who sold the vaccine) to fax something to say she only sold the vaccine and did not administer/see a cat.
She's in quarantine at the moment until next Friday so - which is the first 2 weeks free so I'm trying to get it sorted before then.
Basically we have to wait for this guy to reply and then we can make the next move. If he still doesn't back down then I think I will try contacting the local press.
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Good luck. I hope they don't expect you to pay quarantine charges when this is sorted out!
If anything, I would be looking into claiming damages from them.
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I wouldnt wait, I would force this...................just an appaling situation
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Trust me we've been calling and trying for the past 2 weeks.
The recent news that trading standards Luton says there is no problem and she (the previous owner) can keep her cats has given us a little bit of hope and also angered us more because we know the whole thing is a mess.
I wouldnt wait, I would force this...................just an appaling situation
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We dealt with a similar and at the same time slightly different issue raising case earlier this year. A stray cat which was obviously just lost but which had a french chip. We had accepted the cat into our care so we had accepted responsibility for it. As soon as the chip problem was discovered, all kinds of nonsense started. :tired: We tried desperately to trace an owner using all kinds of methods but nothing brought us forward. :doh:
The problem you are going to find, and expect are already finding, is that one will want to know. They will all point to each other and pass the buck. DEFRA really couldn't care less, nor could RCVS or any other authority we spoke to. CP guidelines state any cat whose imigration status is unclear for any reason needs to be quarentined. End of story. That's exactly what they will tell you when/if you call them. :shy:
The puss in our case HAD to go into quarentine for six months and HQ kindly covered the bill as it would have sunk our small branch. As far as I know, puss finished its period in a DEFRA approved quarentine cattery and then went on to the National Cat Centre and get rehomed. :) The sad thing is that it very probably was imported legally and properly but we had no way of proving it. :(
In your case, I'm surprised Trading Standards got involved and I think secretly they are already regretting it deeply. :doh: The fact remains your kitten was vaccinated with a product whose origins are outside this country (either obtained legally or illegally), it was not administered by a professional prepared to vouch for fact it was done here in the UK, and no one has any way at all of proving the kitten itself did not also come from outside the country. The breeder's word for it is not acceptable proof in any legal way. Sorry, I really don't see how you can avoid going down the quarentine route now that TS have made it 'official'. :scared:
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Then they need to quarantine the previous owners cats aswell as she's in exactly the same situtation.
It can't be one rule for one county and one rule for another.
We dealt with a similar and at the same time slightly different issue raising case earlier this year. A stray cat which was obviously just lost but which had a french chip. We had accepted the cat into our care so we had accepted responsibility for it. As soon as the chip problem was discovered, all kinds of nonsense started. :tired: We tried desperately to trace an owner using all kinds of methods but nothing brought us forward. :doh:
The problem you are going to find, and expect are already finding, is that one will want to know. They will all point to each other and pass the buck. DEFRA really couldn't care less, nor could RCVS or any other authority we spoke to. CP guidelines state any cat whose imigration status is unclear for any reason needs to be quarentined. End of story. That's exactly what they will tell you when/if you call them. :shy:
The puss in our case HAD to go into quarentine for six months and HQ kindly covered the bill as it would have sunk our small branch. As far as I know, puss finished its period in a DEFRA approved quarentine cattery and then went on to the National Cat Centre and get rehomed. :) The sad thing is that it very probably was imported legally and properly but we had no way of proving it. :(
In your case, I'm surprised Trading Standards got involved and I think secretly they are already regretting it deeply. :doh: The fact remains your kitten was vaccinated with a product whose origins are outside this country (either obtained legally or illegally), it was not administered by a professional prepared to vouch for fact it was done here in the UK, and no one has any way at all of proving the kitten itself did not also come from outside the country. The breeder's word for it is not acceptable proof in any legal way. Sorry, I really don't see how you can avoid going down the quarentine route now that TS have made it 'official'. :scared:
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DEFRA really couldn't care less, nor could RCVS or any other authority we spoke to.
in that case can you ask the lady where she got her vaccine from, so that we can start self-administering our own?
I'd have thought RCVS will be interested.
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The lady brought them into country from Poland................thats what all this is about!
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If you speak Polish, then go ahead, goto Poland and buy your own vaccines.
DEFRA really couldn't care less, nor could RCVS or any other authority we spoke to.
in that case can you ask the lady where she got her vaccine from, so that we can start self-administering our own?
I'd have thought RCVS will be interested.
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What a mess,sounds like a "jobsworth" they don't want to lose face do they? I would agree,go to the local press,or whomever will listen to this story.I wish you all good luck,poor puss will wonder what's happening.
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Just got a reply from cats.org.uk and it seems they haven't even read my email.
They simply replied with a template email for imported cats and quarantine.
Sigh....
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Yes, should the correct authorities find out, yes they very probably will take the lady's other cats into quarenteen as well if they also have been vaccinated with unofficially imported and administered vaccines but do not have a valid pet passport or proof of legal entry to the UK. That fact they haven't done that so far means that someone somewhere has chosen to overlook these cats. :innocent:
I am afraid we do have very strict laws in this country, some say they are outdated now but that's an argument that's not going to help you at this minute. But these laws are currently in use whether right or wrong, but nonetheless - these tough laws have in the past protected the UK from the Rabies threat for decades and thank God it has never broken out here. Some other parts of Europe cannot say the same. :'(
The situation you are in may not be fair but the authorities are only upholding the law. :tired: We had to stand by and let them take a perfectly healthy stray cat off who had been living rough in someone's garden without doing any harm for months. But he HAD to serve his time in licensed quarenteen before we were allowed to rehome him. :innocent:
For another thing while I'm writing, vaccines are a prescription only product in this country and cannot be stored in unlicensed premises. Vet surgeries can keep them, larger Adoption Centres can keep them but the conditions they are kept in need to be carefully monitored and open to DEFRA inspection - you cannot shove them next to your milk! I expect this is why your case fell on the TS desk. I expect your vet was also concerned that an unlicensed, uninsured amatuer was obtaining and administering prescription only drugs. I would think he had no choice but to seek further clarity and advice from the authorities. It's actually this issue that concerns me most actually... vaccines are produced locally to protect against the more common strains showing in each region. The antibody payload of each vaccine varies from county to county even, let alone seperate countries. I would think a vaccine manufactured in a country as far away as Poland would carry a payload radically different to the strains we commonly see in the UK. I would be concerned about the level of protection these cats are getting against our most common strains of diseases. That's even if the vaccine was stored an administered professionally. :innocent:
I know it seems harsh and cruel... but again, I cannot see a way out but for your kitten to go through the quarenteen. :( :hug: :hug:
Then they need to quarantine the previous owners cats aswell as she's in exactly the same situtation.
It can't be one rule for one county and one rule for another.
We dealt with a similar and at the same time slightly different issue raising case earlier this year. A stray cat which was obviously just lost but which had a french chip. We had accepted the cat into our care so we had accepted responsibility for it. As soon as the chip problem was discovered, all kinds of nonsense started. :tired: We tried desperately to trace an owner using all kinds of methods but nothing brought us forward. :doh:
The problem you are going to find, and expect are already finding, is that one will want to know. They will all point to each other and pass the buck. DEFRA really couldn't care less, nor could RCVS or any other authority we spoke to. CP guidelines state any cat whose imigration status is unclear for any reason needs to be quarentined. End of story. That's exactly what they will tell you when/if you call them. :shy:
The puss in our case HAD to go into quarentine for six months and HQ kindly covered the bill as it would have sunk our small branch. As far as I know, puss finished its period in a DEFRA approved quarentine cattery and then went on to the National Cat Centre and get rehomed. :) The sad thing is that it very probably was imported legally and properly but we had no way of proving it. :(
In your case, I'm surprised Trading Standards got involved and I think secretly they are already regretting it deeply. :doh: The fact remains your kitten was vaccinated with a product whose origins are outside this country (either obtained legally or illegally), it was not administered by a professional prepared to vouch for fact it was done here in the UK, and no one has any way at all of proving the kitten itself did not also come from outside the country. The breeder's word for it is not acceptable proof in any legal way. Sorry, I really don't see how you can avoid going down the quarentine route now that TS have made it 'official'. :scared:
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A very difficult position to be in, but I think I'm with Helen and Jasmine. I would make an impassioned but rational plea to the media - along the lines of "can anyone shed light on this peculiar and thorny legal issue as we're left devastated, and our cat is left without the owners who love and care about it. No-one seems to know for sure andno-one seems to want to be the one to make the decision or to advise....."
I do hope you can get this resolved, and quickly. :hug:
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I disagree Julie, from what I understand of the OP's posts Trading Standards [Luton] have investigated as a direct result of the OP's kitten being placed into quarantine by Trading Standards [Buckingham]. The investigation of TS Luton concluded that the kittens were indeed born and bred in the UK and the only issue is that they were vaccinated with a Polish vaccine here in the UK by somebody not suitably qualified to do do. Their investigation must have concluded that the kittens were UK born and bred otherwise they would all be in quarantine now, as the OP's kitten is.
The only issue that needs addressing is the woman who imported and used the Polish vaccines, this does not affect the status of the OP's kitten who TS Luton have accepted was born in the UK and therefore should not need quarantine. As there is no legal requirement to vaccinate domestic cats then whether the kitten is un-vaccinated or vaccinated with a Polish vaccine should make no difference, TS Luton concluded she was born in the UK so she should be at home with her owners.
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Small update: The previous owner is being very helpful and has got the vets details from Poland where she purchased the vaccine. These details have been handed to Trading Standards Buckingham so they can speak with them and verify no cat was present...
Fingers crossed it will make a difference and we will get a decision soon.
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That's good news and a step in the right direction, are Trading Standards [Buckingham] allowing you to visit her while she's in quarantine? Hope so :hug:
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I disagree Julie, from what I understand of the OP's posts Trading Standards [Luton] have investigated as a direct result of the OP's kitten being placed into quarantine by Trading Standards [Buckingham]. The investigation of TS Luton concluded that the kittens were indeed born and bred in the UK and the only issue is that they were vaccinated with a Polish vaccine here in the UK by somebody not suitably qualified to do do. Their investigation must have concluded that the kittens were UK born and bred otherwise they would all be in quarantine now, as the OP's kitten is.
The only issue that needs addressing is the woman who imported and used the Polish vaccines, this does not affect the status of the OP's kitten who TS Luton have accepted was born in the UK and therefore should not need quarantine. As there is no legal requirement to vaccinate domestic cats then whether the kitten is un-vaccinated or vaccinated with a Polish vaccine should make no difference, TS Luton concluded she was born in the UK so she should be at home with her owners.
I agree - the problem is that there is probably no rule in their rulebook to deal with this :tired:
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What a nightmare - I hope that seriously cute kitten is home with you soon.
I work for a government organisation, we have a customer charter and service levels for responding to issues - I know it's a load of hassle but it might be worth getting hold of that for this council and perhaps complaining if the officer is being uncommunicative.
I also know that a letter from an MP gets a hugely prioritised response and is even more likely to do so within a council so it could be well worth getting in touch with them.
Best of luck
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Update:
We managed to get the person in Poland who supplied the vaccine to send a letter to trading standards confirming it was only sold, not administered and not cat was present.
Spoke to Tim Day at trading standards today and he tells me that they have decided to keep the kitten in quarantine because of "too many discrepancies between different accounts".... I asked him to elaborate and said I believe there were none and he was only trying to save face by not backing down... he said he "was not sure what he was allowed to tell me..."
His supervisor is supposed to be calling me tomorrow to discuss in more detail but i'm absolutely furious with them and I even mentioned their "double standards" between their office and Luton... but he kept saying "I can't comment on Luton"...
So mad :(
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So mad :(
don't blame you
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What an awful situation to be in! I do hope it gets resolved quickly and that your gorgeous kitten is soon back at home where she belongs.
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Still can't help wondering if this is one you should now approach the media about. :hug:
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Still can't help wondering if this is one you should now approach the media about. :hug:
can't do any harm. you may get offers of help for costs and if its in the papers the kitten is less likely to disappear!
you may even be able to quote something like "safer to get a new pet from a rescue" ;) not that we need any publicity of course but every bit helps, :-[
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OTT but Lottie... I have tried 3 times to reply to your PM but the system won't let me. It says 'cannot find member Lottie (Team Svartalfheim's)' :-:
Send me a blank message on FB and I'll see if that works. :scared:
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Sorry to hear this still hasn't been resolved :hug:
Now is the time to go to the press, 'poor little kitten in quarantine over Xmas due to trading double standards', as I said before even better if you have a child family member to add to the 'story' for them.
I'd also be making a nuisance of myself with anyone who will listen - MP, senior manager of TS, ombudsman (if there is one for TS).
With a bit of media interest you may find your case is dealt with much quicker and hopefully you'll get the resolution that we're all hoping for, your kitten back home with the family who love her in time for Xmas :hug:
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OTT but Lottie... I have tried 3 times to reply to your PM but the system won't let me. It says 'cannot find member Lottie (Team Svartalfheim's)' :-:
Send me a blank message on FB and I'll see if that works. :scared:
Can you remind me who you are on FB :evillaugh: I'm still a bit rubbish at trying to tie 'real' names to Purrs people LOL.
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I would go down to the office and see these Trading Standard people in person, I wouldnt leave reception until I had an answer, they will wont be so brave face to face
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I think getting an MP involved would be the most effective - depends of course on what they are like.
Ours, Julian Brazier is a real far-right a-hole who is pro hunting but anti lots of other things (in a bad way)
We have another Tory MP in Kent, Roger Gale (Thanet) who is against fox hunting. Him & his wife Suzi are very animal friendly :)
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Definitely go to the press now...they will be interested especially just before Christmas because of the type of story and also because there is never a lot of news in the local newspapers around Christmas time.
I approached my local paper (time & citizen, I'm in Bedfordshire also) initially by phone to see if they would be interested. Explained my story (about the lost and found work I do) and they were hugely interested. Sent someone round to do photos, spoke to the found pets owners...all sorts.
Your story will definitely make the local papers and that should help you as the others have already stated.
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Do you have free legal advice or access to a solicitor attached to your house insurance, any pet insurance or credit cards, that you could call up and talk to about this.
The vets do have the right to impund any animal that they think may be a risk in this country. If I took in one of my chickens and the vet confrimed it was bird flu, the chicken would be seized and DEFRA notified. The vets has in this case, IMHO, acted in the interests of everyone by takiing a cat of what appeared to be of unknown orgin.
The vets acted on what they were told, "This cat is polish", how else would you expect them to act?
I know that I would probably be shot down in flames here, but if that cat had been smuggled into this country illegally and had rabies, would we be so quick to have a pop at the goverment departments who at the end of the day are tring to protect all of us. No, we would all be jumping up and down and slateing them off for not acting when they should have had their suspicions!
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The vets acted on what they were told, "This cat is polish", how else would you expect them to act?
I know that I would probably be shot down in flames here, but if that cat had been smuggled into this country illegally and had rabies, would we be so quick to have a pop at the goverment departments who at the end of the day are tring to protect all of us. No, we would all be jumping up and down and slateing them off for not acting when they should have had their suspicions!
I don't think there's any suggestion that the vet is in the wrong or indeed that anyone could criticise the vets for their actions. From what I understand, the problem (for the OP and his kitten) is that two different counties of Trading Standards have become involved. Trading standards (Beds), where the OP's kitten was born and the owner of the Mum cats lives, have investigated and concluded that the Mum and kittens are indeed UK cats and that the only issue to be addressed is the Polish owner importing and using Polish vaccine. Despite this investigation from Beds TS concluding the cats/kittens are legal, Bucks TS are keeping the OP's kitten in quarantine. How can they justify that when Beds have allowed the Mum and remaining kittens to stay with the Polish owner ie concluding they are perfectly legal.
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Any news on this poor cat?
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was wondering the same thing Mark
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Me too. Such a horrible situation to be in
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still no word, hope everythings ok