Purrs In Our Hearts - Cat Forum UK
Cat General => General Cat Chat => Topic started by: irina77 on March 04, 2010, 20:54:44 PM
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:scared:
Dear all, I hope that you can help me with your advise as I am sure you, probably, have similar experience. In November we took a little girl cat from the RSPCA centre. She is very shy and nervous (she spent 5 hours under the settee straight after we brought her home). But she settled down eventually and 2 weeks ago we decided to give another cat a home. So ten days ago we got a lovey boy cat who is an exact opposite - very calm, confident and funny. And then I made a big mistake on the first day: when the girl started hissing and growling at him, I didn't immediately separated them! So the boy went over to her, she panicked and run away, he chased her, they had a little fight abd she spent the next few hours under the bed, very frightened. Later I read that you'd better introduce cats gradually and now one of them is locked in the bedroom for a few hours and I let them out in turns. We tried it again couple of days ago with almost the same result (chasing and hiding). I feel incredibly guilty when locking each one in and, besides I feel sorry for the girl as she suffers more. I don't want to return the boy back to the centre, it is unfair.
Can somebody advise me on what to do next? It's impossible to carry on like this - hiding them from each other and locking them away!
Please, help!
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:welcome: to Purrs
I don't have any experience myself of introducing new cats but this link may be of interest. http://www.purrsinourhearts.co.uk/index.php/topic,4789.0.html
I know there are many people on here who have successfully introduced a new cat to their existing cat/s so hopefully someone will be along with more advice shortly :hug:
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Hiya Hun :welcome:
I have been through exactly what you are going through now years ago. With an Introvert and an extrovert cat and trying to introduce them. I made the mistake of not introducing slowly so my older babe Rio ginge and white (3 yrs old) was so scared of little newbie kitten Gizmo semi long ginger, he started to stay out all the time. I felt awful and so bad for bringing Gizmo into the house. :'(
Anyhoo, At the time i had some wonderful help from a Lady called Wizz who is a cat behaviourist and it helped so much. It took time and care and patience but in the end Rio and Gizz got on great ;D
This is a summary (lol )of what Wizz was telling me to do over about 4 weeks and what happened ie emails to and fro . It's a long read but def well worth reading :)
Rio was the older introvert one and was the one who was scared of mad little youngster Gizzy.
Wizz (behaviourist) parts in blue my responses in black..
Let us know how they get on hun
xx
Hi Tan
Lovely to speak to you. I'll just give you a few quick notes to start you off and put some stuff in the post to you.
Separate them with no contact at all or smells transfered on you whatsoever. Wash your hands etc after being with gizmo so Rio can't smell him.
Giz: Set him up in his own room, tray, food, toys, bed, - he will be used to having his siblings around him so a few toys placed in his bed will comfort him. You will probably be able to hear him playing, he will have a set routine of play/sleep/toilet so you will be able to 'allocate' some time to him while he is awake. Leave a radio or TV on if you think it will help him. Try not to let him use you as 'prey' - normally kittens would fight with each other and when it gets too rough one of them will squeal and the game stops - thus they learn that biting and scratching is not nice - if we don't deter this then you will end up with an aggressive adult cat.
Rio - need to re-establish your relationship with this little man. Spend as much time as you can with him - but not necessarily interacting with him. Let him come to you. Cut his food down so that he has to come to you. At the moment he is expecting little Giz to come at him from every angle - it won't take him long before he realises that it is 'safe' to come back indoors. I think it would be wise to fence off your garden then this could become an 'extension' of your house. The more 'space' they have the better it will be for them. I have attached a picture of my pen for you - you will notice that there are shelves inside and out - most cats love to be high up. You could also make little 'cat boxes' for them to sleep in and attach them to the fence - may need some support underneath - mine take just one cat - so no sharing! I also bought a childs wooden bench which fits cats just nicely! In the summer I put cushions and that out but obviously that's not possible during the winter, so you have to make sure the basics are preserved. I also have 'shelves' on my fencing so the cats can sun themselves, and they get on to the roof of the cat pens. You can make little ramps all sorts!
I have an area with bark chippings which the cats seem to love to toilet in! Then I also have an area where I use a biodegradable paper litter - I treat these areas like trays, and scoop the poop every so often. I have it slightly raised so there is a brick surround and the 'litter' is below the bricks so it doesn't get kicked out on the rest of the garden. We also have a saw mill near us and I have got some nice large pieces of tree - much cheaper than scratching posts!
The website that does the outdoor/indoor activity centres is www.catplay-stations.com there might be something on there to give you some ideas.
More to follow in the post!
Love Wizz xx
Xx
Have moved Giz into the spare room (he seemed very happy there and I stayed and played with him until he got tired) The downstairs is back to normal as Rio is used to with the patio doors open. It has been pouring here but he still won’t come in and is hiding under the wheelbarrow! He did come looking for food before the rain and I have taken all this up and tried to talk him to coming in to eat but he was not having any of it so I have not given him any. Have been out and stroked him and he did come up to me.
Oh wow as I was typing this, he has just walked in and is eating in the kitchen. Gave him his usual kitchen towel rub to dry him off! God what a relief, a big weight off my mind and it feels great to get some of the old routine and some of boy back. Thanks so very much. I know we still have a way to go but this is great. He has finished eating and slowly walked out again going over the fence! Have to get him in before 8pm when it gets dark!
Tan - you can move Rio's tea time so once he's had his tea he is in - my girls have a 6pm curfew and the boys are allowed out until a bit later - this is because the girls are part feral and would stay out all night given the choice! So you could move his tea time to say, 7.30pm, or feed him very little in the afternoon so he is hungry in the evenings. I only feed mine twice a day, 6am and 6pm, then when I'm locking up in the evening they have a choice, they can either come in the house or go in to one of the sleeping compartments in the garden. They have heated top boxes - some of them prefer to be on their own. Anyway I usually have some ham with me, so its quite easy to get everyone in at night - most of the time! Often with the cats the more you try to get them in, the more they avoid it.
Had an interesting one the other day - lady phoned me - cat acting strange, almost as if she didn't recognise the owner, desperate to get her in, had been out for days, just wasn't having it - normally very sociable etc. They'd got an open appointment at the vet they were so worried that she was hurt. Anyway I told her to go home and go and sit out in the garden where the cat was but to sit and read a book. After about an hour Linda was about to give up and was lying down on the blanket when she suddenly realised the little cat was by her side - she did nothing, as instructed - and let the cat rub around her. She then went indoors, ignored the cat and left the door open. That evening the cat walked in to the house - she waited until it was well and truly in the house and then shut the back door. Took her to the vet - the little one has a virus - probably affecting the brain tissue hence the peculiar behaviour - I had prepared her for the worse - thank God! but they think with antibiotics she should be ok - next 48 hours we will know - but even her husband came on the phone last night to thank me - bless! I said its amazing just a bit of body language - works wonders - this is why cats always go for people who don't like them - they sit still and they ignore them - posing no threat to the cat whatsoever - so they go to make friends!!
Hope you get him in tonight! Speak soon!
Rio came back quite quickly and sat in his pot. The pot is on the chair by the patio door which in summer is normally always open as it’s so humid. This is his normal thing he does before I get him in ever since he was allow out after being neutered. The time that I have been getting him in varies in summer and winter so depends on the daylight time and as he has always been in his pot where I can see him getting him in has never been a prob so I must admit I have let him sit there. But yes I will definitely start feeding him twice a day, in am and bring him straight in at half 7 for his dinner.
I have fed him a mo ago with some ham by hand (usual for him) and he ate a full slice (also usual!!) then picked him up and put him on his cat tree in the lounge. He stretched and has now slowly gone upstairs then has come back down and started crying in a desperate fashion which he normally does when he wants to go to the loo. He doesn’t use his litter tray so should I ignore him and hope he will use it? Is that right?
He may have sensed that little Giz is upstairs - he won't know that Giz can't actually get to him, so his immediate reaction will be 'I know he's up here so let me out!' Yes I'm afraid you may have a couple of sleepless nights in front of you - I put all mine either in their pens, or in the kitchen/outdoor pen - because I need my sleep. Ebony bless her - my little feral - she does play and run up and down the stairs at night, but she doesn't jump on the bed or yowl. She sleeps on the window sill behind me and is usually well behaved! You may as a last resort want to put him in the kitchen if he is driving you completely round the bend. From a behavioural point of view its ignore bad behaviour, reward good - so if he's crying at you for attention you ignore him, when he's quiet and sat nicely, you reward him by stroking him - that kind of thing. As long as Rio's tray is somewhere quiet, if he's desperate he should use it - having said that I have had cats that absolutely refuse to use a tray - poor Simon nearly burst something when he was in the vets after he's had his leg amputated - they said he could only go home after he'd had a wee - I said you'll be waiting a long time then!
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Hiya
Had a pretty good night sleep! Rio (nick name -Wizzer waddle - don’t ask where that comes from!) settled down with me on the bed then slept on the landing outside Giz’s room. I felt he had the attitude last nite when he came in “good got rid of him then have you” !!! He didn’t seem to notice Giz was tucked away instead!!! Ha ha ha (evil laugh) fool you then!
He woke me up this morning as usual to go out but this time it was hour early at 5am so I managed to last till half 5 then took him outside and he went to the loo. Played with him for half hour then got him back in with a plate of tuna. I have let him back out in the garden (9am) with the lounge doors open as he is used to and he is sleeping under the towel on the chair. … update … he was sleeping, he just went for a silly pigeon who landed right by him!!
…… and half hour later after play time was requested!
Little Giz was all over me this am when I went in about half 6. We had a good play and some breakfast (He had mmmmm kitten chicken flavour felix…. I had toast!) then he started to knead and suckle in my neck which he hadn’t done before. It’s just so sad that these little babes are taken away from their mum when they need her. Makes me so angry!
Things going better. Rio is still a bit weary and has cried a bit at night after I have brought him in but we have ignored him and he has settled for every night in our bedroom. He still prefers to be in the garden for the day (which is actually usual as I normally work on my lap top in the garden and he stays near me) but is coming in to eat and for playtime request.
He hasn’t settled in the lounge when we are there in the evening yet. He either used to sleep on his cat tree or in the cardboard box in the lounge but prefers to go upstairs. Before, he did sometimes choose to sleep upstairs in the eve so I wouldn’t say this was totally unlike him! He is sniffing things out in the lounge.
He seems more relaxed but still moping a bit which is what he was like before Giz arrived.
Giz on the other hand is now called “Ginge Ninge”. He has no fear of anything! I am going into see him every 2 hours and playing until he settles to sleep. Am I going in enough? I am washing my hands and face every time etc. He does seem to be getting clingy and lonely in there. He has started to suckle at my neck on occasions. Should we be letting Giz and his smell out only upstairs a bit as long as they do not see each other at all? He did nip out dashed into our bedroom when I went into see him at one point yesterday and I thought Rio would smell him and then not come into our bedroom but Rio settled as usual on his cat tree in there and then on the bed with me all night. Phew that was a relief!! Oh to have my Rio’s happy face back and happily playing with Giz!
Yes you can start to let Giz out into the rest of the house - if you can shut off downstairs then all the better.
What you are aiming for is that Giz is confident in all areas of the house but without confronting Rio at this point - if you see Rio reacting adversely to Giz's smell then we have a problem! What you can do, when you see Rio 'sniffing' around where Giz has been - he may well have his mouth slightly open so he can 'taste' the smell as well. If Rio is particularly partial to anything like ham, then this would be a good time to praise and reward him, so he has a good association with the smell.
You will have to judge for yourself really how Rio is doing as he is your cat and you know him better than anyone. Its quite normal for Giz to be 'clingy' part of growing up is realising that 'mum' isn't around 24/7 - if he'd been rehomed to a 'normal' home where they are out for 8 - 10 hours a day, he would have something to complain about!
After I emailed you Sat, I got Wizzer in and took him into the kitchen where he ate then he came back into the lounge and sat on his box. He did cry, not a normal Rio cry but a “I’m not happy” one. This is where he feels safer as it is higher. He ended up grooming then sleeping on it, then came up to bed sometime in the night. Wow a break thought I thought!
Until yesterday when he stayed out all day as usual, then after I got him in last night and he ate, he went tried to get out and then went upstairs and tried to hide again. We have space in the bed base opened by a sliding draw where Ochi used to sleep sometimes and went to go in there which he had never done before. He ended up sleeping in my cupboard draw till the usual thing of me taking him out at half 5 in morning.
He has come in this am through cat flap on his own and eaten then has slept on his cat tree in the bedroom. I was in with Giz at the time. When I came out of the spare room he followed me downstairs and cried to go out even though his cat flap was open. He followed me back upstairs slowly at sat at the top stair. I said “It’s ok Giz can’t come out” and he came up to me, sniffed at the bottom of Giz’s door, then got into the cupboard again. He there sleeping now and I have shut our bedroom door with him in it so I could let Giz out as he was crying.
Is it ok to be shutting Rio in the bed room in that situation (i.e he went there out of his decision etc)
Actually have now felt bad about this and as Giz started to go to sleep in the lounge, just put Giz back in the spare room to sleep and opened up our bedroom. Wizzer was still and is still in my cupboard!
I have tried to give him some ham when he was in the house and sniffing but he isn’t interested at all.
Was a bit down last nite when I went to bed. The worse time is when I go to sleep as me Och would come to bed with me and do his kneedy sucky thing. But also cause I feel I have done this completely wrong. I should have given Rio more time before adopting a cat companion for him. I feel as if I have failed Rio cause he feels scared in his own home now as well as all his cat friends and Bro have gone.
I feel I have failed Giz cause as he is so young and he has to spend time in the spare room on his own and doesn’t like it. I feel he is getting very dependant on me for company and play etc and so causing him to have behaviour problems too!
Rio is doing better every day. Today he came in and out 4 times today by himself to eat and when he was sniffing in the lounge, he had his tail in an upward arc like one of the pics in the tail signals bit you sent me. Number 2. He’s asleep on my side of the bed now after staying down with me in the lounge snoozing on his box for a bit. Definitely more relaxed in the house. He still would prefer to stay out in the garden longer at night which he can do when the fences are up but I would prefer as we discussed to bring him in as usual and open the flap after he has settled so he can go out later when he wants to.
Good thing is that as the shorter evenings draw in, I don’t have to worry about brining him in earlier in the winter months and know he will be safe too!
We have been bringing Giz out to have the run of the whole of the house every 2 hours and puting him back when Rio wants to come in or when he is sleepy. His smell is definitely all over now. I am trying to teach him not to attack hands and faces! He does tend to do that a bit. I have been saying NO and stopped playing. Been playing more with his fav mouse toy on a rod so he can chew on that instead. He doesn’t hurt when he bites your hand, he is actually quite careful not to do it hard. But I wouldn’t want him when he gets older to still do it!!
Must admit I feel a bit sorry for Rio when they do get together, he will have to tell Giz off quite a bit I think. Giz is a mad attacking ninja at mo! Hopefully he might carm down a bit!!!
That's brilliant Tan - if you want you can put Giz in a cat carrier and just leave him in the living room - best to do it after you've had a big play and he is tiered - if they ever get tiered!! Then let Rio into the room - place the carrier on a chair - not at ground level and let Rio come in as usual - hopefully Giz may be asleep and Rio will go up and sniff him - I think its best to contain Giz in this instance so that if Rio is not at all happy you can quickly and easily remove Giz from the situation and not one gets attacked.
You need to watch Rio's body language very carefully here - then you do it when Giz is well and truly and awake - he will probably start pawing to get out of the carrier - and again watch to see if Rio wants to play with him, or just walks away. Again this is something you will have to judge for yourself as I can't be there to watch the signals for you - watch the ears too - if Rio flattens his ears in attack mode then remove Giz - basically the flatter the ears the more dangerous the situation. They only truly flatten the ears down when they are about to attack - they do this to protect their ears and keep them out of the way!
Rio must feel that he is in charge - so continue mixing the scents you are doing brilliantly and your patience will be rewarded
Well have moved on a bit not sure if it’s a step back or not? This am put a sleeping Giz in the basket in his room and opened the door with Rio in the hall. Giz of course woke up and started to cry and paw to get out. Rio sat on the top stair and watched quite calmly until me hubby came up the stairs to go to the loo and Rio went down them to go out the flap. He didn’t actually go out so I brought Giz down to the lounge still in the carrier and Rio sat on the bottom stair peeking round the corner at the box and the crying sounds coming from it. He went up slowly sniffing but lowered back. Then turned and went out the flap.
I went out to give Rio some fussing and play time in the garden and Steve let Giz out in the lounge. Rio was quite happy in the garden and back to his calm self as soon as he got out of the door.
Later on, brought Rio in for some Tuna and beforehand put Giz in the carrier which was still in the lounge. Giz was quiet this time. Took Rio into the kitchen but he wasn’t interested in any food and as he walked out the kitchen he saw Giz just sat in the carrier. He watched him a bit, his tail was up, no aggression what so ever then wanted out. I tried to give him some tuna or ham and lots of strokes by the capflap. He wasn’t interested in eating at all. I went up to the bedroom as I didn’t want him having to go out of his home every time he got scared. He followed me up and was perfectly fine on the bed with me for a while.
Then, as he hasn’t really been in Giz’s room yet, I sat in there tempting him to come in and play which he did come in and sniff around, tail up, no crouching, and then watched me play with his toy a bit then went down and out. Again he was fine in the garden, happy that I went out to him, so we had another play.
Rio is not aggressive at all he is frightened of Giz! I must admit, when I take him out the front at half 5 in the morning he sticks to me like glue while we are in the cul de sac and seems scared of any cat about. But in the garden he’s fine. Would Rescue remedy help him not be so scared? I can’t get over that fact he’s scared of Giz. I thought as he is smaller than him, he would be a threat!
I am spending most of my time splitting my attention and playing with each of them separately, not having much time for working!! They both rely on me for attention. If this takes quite a while for Rio to accept Giz, will they get jealous if they are both relying on me!
Do ya think I should carry on with the Giz in the carrier thing on occasion or go back to them not meeting at all? Is there anything else I can help Rio to not be so scared? Poor babe I really feel I have betrayed him and it breaks my heart.
I don't suppose you know anyone with a dog cage? If not you can increase the time that Giz is in the carrier and sees Rio - if you can make it a time when Giz is near to his sleep time. I am bit concerned as Rio is still showing signs of wanting to go out as soon as he sees Giz, and it may be that in the end we may have to lock everyone in, and let Giz out the carrier - you can then distract Giz with playing or hand feeding so he doesn't immediately fly at Rio the minute he comes out the basket. Usually with kittens it is easier to restrain them in a large cage so the cat gets used to them being around - but as you say - Rio seems to be particularly nervous. I'm not convinced with RR but it certainly won't do him any harm! I think your best method with Rio being as he is - is to use distraction techniques on the kitten - we need to be careful now not to go too long before they are together, as this can be just as bad as too soon! Try feeding Giz in the basket and Rio close to him - see if he will eat in Giz's presence
Morning Wizz (almost called you Wizzer waddle then ha ha!)
That sounds a lot better than my hubbies suggestion of shutting them in the same room then going out to the pub!! Men!!!
I don’t really blame Rio of being scared of Spitty gitty, he is a mad little thing but very lovable
Wizzer waddle and me (the mad cat lover in our road) was out as usual this am at half 5. Getting very cold at that time now brrrrrr!!! Thank god the last parts of the fencing are ready soon and the cat flap for the back will be here in the week.
He came in by himself about half 7 while I was shut in the lounge with Ninja Mo (another name for Gizmo!) and then went out after I heard him jump off the bed upstairs. So he not scared to come in on his own which he was before. I think he does show an interest in Gizzy poo poo bum clingers (sorry he’s my 1st cat with longer hair so 1st time for cleaning off the clingons!) just has this expression “Holy pooey, whats that.. monster in the house … EVACUATE”!
It’s a shame waddle has never been a “oooo gimmy gimmy that food” freak he likes ham more than anything but can take it or leave it. So it’s hard to distract him at all. Giz on the other hand has a big fetish for Philadelphia cheese after he nicked my cheese tuc bicky one night!! Not good for kitties I know but could come in handy for distracting him! I will get some more cat nip today as Rio sometime likes that but don’t think that would be enough of a distraction from Giz. Ochi used to go mad for it and I even caught him nicking it out of the cupboard!
Oh (Sigh) if every thing in life was simple!!! Hmmm maybe the pub idea doesn’t sound too bad!!!! (only joking!) So at the mo we are letting Giz have the lounge in the day while keeping the curtains shut so Rio can’t see him from the garden. Should I now not hide Giz from Rio and open the curtains so Rio can see him in the lounge. Or is this no good as Rio won’t be in the same room and think again right not going in there then!
I think it would be better if you can to cage Giz for frequent short spells while Rio is around - even if say Rio is in the garden and you put Giz in the carrier and leave him in the kitchen where Rio can see him - main thing is Rio is in charge!
Should be Wizzer waddle after what I've just eaten - hadn't had breakfast up until half an hour ago so had bowl if bran flakes with banana on, then had my lunch straight after - cornbeef and pickle sandwich!
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Wizz
We have had a break through
They are sort of playing!! Rio is moaning and giving the odd hiss sometimes and trying to swat Giz but not actually touching him although he could give him a good smack if he wanted to! Rio seems very relaxed on the chair and has been grooming in between Giz trying to find a nice tail to get or trying to find ways up to him.
Giz just won’t leave him alone! Very brave little chap!
Rio actually came in by himself this am (raining outside!!) while Giz was in the lounge.
Rio went straight into kitchen with Giz happily following and Rio actually ate some food (in between the odd growl) with Giz watching. Then Rio came back in the lounge and jumped up on chair and this has been going on for about an hour now.
Giz is being his usual cheeky self and Rio is actually enjoying the attention and looking for him!
Rio has got off the chair a few times but as he cant get out at the mo (cat flap was locked incase Giz got out) he is having to out up with him !!! Ha Ha (evil laugh)
What ya reckon. Is this a good
Ah Bless - They are handsome boys - looks good to me - the change in weather usually accompanies a change in habits - like heading for the warm spots!
Since Friday everything has gone really well. On Friday late afternoon, I was out in the garden with Rio and I thought how would Rio react if Giz was in his garden! As it is totally fenced in and no way to get out unless over the fences, I let Giz come out with us. I was a bit worried but Rio was amazing. They ended up playing hide and seek for ages. Not one growl or hiss from Rio at all. Fantastic! It was so great to see Rio having fun “cat” playing again.
When I brought them back in for the night, Rio went back to his hissy and hidey self in the house! Weird I thought especially when he was comfortable in the garden with him.
Over the weekend they have been in the garden a lot playing and Rio has been getting a lot better in the house with him now too only the occasional moan when Giz gets too annoying!! Little git!!
Rio comes in the house now all calm and when he wants to. Giz has tried to play with him when he was eating and Rio told him off so Giz now sits near and waits till he has finished!
I can see Rio loves all this attention, no sign of being bored at all. This morning they were both on the bed with us and Rio was grooming Giz.
Giz absolutely adores Rio. He won’t leave him alone. He is like Rio’s tail extension!! Rio has his places where Giz can’t get to him and Giz just sits and looks at Rio waiting for him to get down. Rio now tells Giz off and lets him know he is being a pain!! Ha ha it’s so great to see.
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Just got caught up reading your epistle Tan and it started getting to me as I heard someone growling somewhere in the house :scared: Had to creep out of room and me and Freddie had to crane our ears :shify: :shify: :shify: .... only to realise it's OH upstairs snoring :evillaugh:
Welcome to Purrs Irina (lovely name) Very best of luck settling your two puddies in together. We have 6 and had no end of trouble for quite a few months last summer but all OK now. Time and patience usually fixes this type of problem. What are your puddies called and how old are they?
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My thoughts for what its worth is that you shut the newcomer in a room and let your resident girl have the rest of the house, cos thats what she has been used to.
You need to spend time with the boy and know from my birman introductions that will be hard if he is confident. they shouted non-stop........sigh.
Each day you need to put the boy in a new room and let the girl wander into the boys room, this exchanges scent......then you move them back to how they were.
You do this until the girl is happy to go in that one room without a problem.
Wizz told me to try this with every room in the house until all interacted normally in each room.
However sighhhhhhhhhhhhhh,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,my birmans being the newcomers and also the confident ones just wanted to be in the bedroom and it took nearly a year before both pairs of cats gingerly passed each other without reacting badly.
Sooooooooooo this can take a very long time and I have two pairs of cats who do not like each other but do now tollerate each other most of the time........sigh. They have been together now aboiut 4 years!
A short cut to this is to mix their bedding to mix scxents and to have the boy in a room with somekind of see through barracade, so the girl can get used to him, or even have a dog cage to put him for short times so they get to smell and see each other.
One thing you must do is protect them from hurting each other and it may turn round really quickly once you start reintroducing.
Just remember the girl thinks its her house and he is an intruder, he thinks its his house too cos he likes it and is confident.
She needs lots of time too so she knows she is still loved.
What are their names by the way :hug:
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Thank you so much for your replies!
The girl's name is Tabitha (Tabi) and the boy's - Freddy. Tabi is 2 years old and Fred is 3 - as they told us in the RSPCA. They are both such lovely and affectionate cats, each in his/her own way! Fred is sitting on the table next to me at the moment and purring and touching my shoulder with his paw to get me to stroke him! Aahh!
He had no problems with settling down at all.
Tabi likes to spend most of the time upsairs in the bedroom as she did before Fred appeared and she absolutely refuses to go out. When I put Fred in my daughter's bedroom and let her out from ours, she usually goes downstairs gingerly, sniffing the corners and looking around as if expecting to see "the monster". I keep talking to her and reassuring her and try playing with her downstairs, but she goes upstairs after a while which she normally does anyway. She ate from "his" bowl several times and used his litter tray though!
So when she goes back upstaits on her own accord, it seems like a "waste of opportunity" and I let Fred out. But I keep going to our bedroom (where she has her own food and water bowls and litter tray) and talk to her and stroke her.
Is it right that I put water, food and tray there for her?
Fred has no problems with anything, he is very laid-back and relaxed and just loves us. So, it's Tabi I worry about most and I feel so very guilty that her previous life is shattered now...
Tan, thank you so much for letting me read those e-mails. The idea about the cat carrier is brilliant and I will definitely use it. I actually thought about putting Freddy on a leash and letting her go downstairs, but cat carrier is much better. I think though that as soon as she sees or smells him she will run upstairs, but I will just have to be patient, I suppose.
Gill, thank you for giving me the idea of letting Tabi to go to the other bedroom where Fred is usually shut. I'll try to do that as well.
I did have two cats before, but they were both very young when we took them and I don't remember having all these troubles with them. It was long time ago though...
Tan, the photo of your cats is so wonderfull and encouraging! It gives me some hope. I don't dream about Tabi and Fred to be like that but I would gladly settle for just a peacefull co-existance. If possible...
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Helen, thank you for the leads - they are very helpful and I got some new ideas!
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Yesterday put Fred (the new cat) into the bedroom where Taby normally resides. He sniffed at absolutely everything there and spent the rest of the time under the bed! We have guests over the weekend but on Monday, when it is all quiet I will try the "door ajar" technique.
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I had the same problem with my 2, Irina. My existing cat, Chuchy, was very laid back and a total mommy's boy so i was very worried about introducing an almost 7 year old into the home. The first few weeks weren't very pleasant with Chuch hating the newcomer (and me!) but, for nearly 3 months now (i've had Charlie-the newcomer and semi feral for 4 months) they sleep on the same bed and chase each other around. Chuch still has the odd swipe at Charlie, who is still pretty nervous, but loves being here with us! His story is on this site: 'GB's (or Charlie's) new home with me' if you fancy a (very long!) read! Don't know how to produce a link, sorry!
I had some great advice from here and Catchat which helped a lot! Good luck
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Thank you, Shirley, for your kind words, but today a major drawback happened! Fred was shut in the bedroom and Taby was downstairs, but the bedroom door wasn't shut properly and DISASTER happened again!!! He gort out and there was a horrible FIGHT!!! With fur everywhere and all that ... :scared: It was so horrible! My husband had to drag him sway virtually by his tail! I was sooo upset. He just can't leave her alone! But Taby recovered much quicker this time and the rest of the day she spent downstairs, she ate well and played and wasn't as shocked as before... Well, I was! :shocked:
I just don't know what to do! I wasnt him to stop pestering her!!!
I am in despair!!!
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OMG Irina, how awful for you (and Tabi!) I forgot to say my Chuch is 9/10 years old so i thnk i've been very lucky! Charlie, the newcomer, was the one shut in the spare bedroom,with litter tray, food etc, which i thought would be a nightmare after the life he was used to, but he was great from day 1-i expect that was due to knowing him from when he was a kitten! I'd go in every so often and fuss him-he wasn't interested in toys! After he's been here a week or so (?) i started wedging the bedroom door open with some cardboard so they could see each other but not get at each other! When Chuch went outside, i'd let Charlie have the run of the house (well, bungalow) so his smell was everywhere The day i decided to let them meet, i got my friend to come round to help (she'd got a feisty cat so was used to aggro, whereas Chuch was my first cat) She stood there armed with a brush and oven gloves, but Charlie hid under the bed and Chuch stayed in the hall! In the end, i had to do it alone the next day and i was terrified! It went really well tho-i think he'd been here about 4 weeks then (would have to check back on my 'diary' to be sure, tho')
I think you're gonna have to start from scratch, as if Fred has only just arrived, and shut him in a room, with her having the run of the house, then gradually, let them see each other through the wedged open door. I also had a Feliway diffuser which someone on CC very kindly sent me-that seemed to work wonders on calming Chuch.
Good luck again-i would hate to see them fighting, it must be so upsetting!
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How's it going Irina?
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Hi, Shirley, thank you for asking, it's very supportive when you know that someone is interested.
They are spending time shut upstairs in turns for now, and I let each one out for a while. Fred is very reluctant to be shut in the bedroom as he likes to be downstairs and beg for food at every opportunity (he doesn't understand the word "enough"! :))
It seems that each other's smells don't bother them that much any more, they don't sniff at the corners suspicously as they used to do. Fred sometimes sits right near the door where Tabi is and sniffs under it. He is the bully though! It is he who starts the fight. Tabi might hiss at him but she never makes a move.
So, I am preparing myself to do the "door ajar" trick - will let you know how it goes.
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it is hard, I remember going through it myself but is worth the effort and one day you will look back and wonder why you were worried!
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Good luck with it all.
We were very lucky when we introduced Milo, he escaped out the bedroom door (Jess was sat outside and wouldn't move, he knew there was a cat in there) and we had some hissing and squaring up but all in all they were fine.
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Thank you, Dawn for your encouragement! It really helps to know that it's not only me who is going through this horrible process!
Will this time of lookiing back etc. you are talking about ever come?!
I just long for peace! :)
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YES IT WILL AND SOONER THAN YOU THINK!!!! I never imagined it would be so good with mine cos Chuchy was a proper mommy's boy and would chase off any other cats in the garden. That was one of the 2 reasons i was against having Charlie (lack of cash being the other!) but, in the end, i didn't really have i choice. I was nagged by everyone on here, Catchat and the sanctuary manager :rofl: :rofl: They have the odd swipe at each other (usually Chuch starting it) but nothing serious and yes, i look back now and wonder why i was so worried! :hug:
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Hello, decided to update you on what's happening here... Not a lot, really, but today I put Freddy-the-Bully into the cat carrier (which he almost broke apart trying to get out!) and let Tabi out of the bedroom and fed her in the kitchen. She ate her food, wondered into the living room, suddenly spotted the Monster in the cage, immediately panicked and ran upstairs and hid under the bed!!!
So, that didn't work.
She is just so petrified of him that I don't think she can tolerate the idea of being in the same room as him.
Shall I keep trying?
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Hi Irina, you know i've been looking for this thread for a few days and couldn't find it-i thought you'd deleted it! :doh: Sorry things aren't any better for you. Have you tried a Feliway diffuser? They're expensive but i think it worked wonders with my Chuch. Also, Bachs flower remedy. A friend on Cat Chat has been using it on her two and is really pleased with the results. Hope everything calms down soon for you! :hug:
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Thank you, Shirley, so much for supporting me! I looked up both the Feliway diffuser and Bachs flower remedy and I am willing to give it a go! Well, I am desperate! Did you use the diffuser with your ats? How did it help? What did it do? Which one of them does your friend use? There are so many of them on the Bachs web site. Does she put it in the water?
So many questions...
Sorry!
Tabi doesn't want to go downstairs at all now, she just stays in the bedroom. Although she seems quite happe there, I feel enormously guilty. Freddy hates being locked in the othe bedroom and tryes to escape every time. I still will probably keepn him there for longer and try to "re-introduce" Tabi back to the rest of the house.
God help me!
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I've been exactly where you are now, never thinking my Chuch would accept Charlie, but he did! The Feliway is supposed to chill them out and it worked almost straightaway for Chuch-before,he'd only have to see a cat in the garden and he'd chase it off! Now he'd got one in his home! OK, he wasn't happy, but the aggression i expected wasn't there. He'd still growl and hiss at Charlie (through the wedged open door) but he was a different cat really! I don't think that without the Feliway that things would've gone so well. I haven't heard of one bad report on CC about it. Regarding the Bach's (she's on CC if you want to read her story-Paolo's been hit by a car AGAIN) Paolo was being bullied by her other cat after his accident so she tried Larch on Paolo to give him more confidence and ahe's amazed at the results! She also gives something to Murph (can't remember which one at the mo, will have to look at CC) and he's much better as well. She puts it in the water.
If Tabi seems happy in the bedroom, i wouldn't worry too much about her-had she used to go outside before Fred came on the scene? I'm no expert, just going on my own experience, but i would shut her in for a while and let him have a wander around the house and vice versa. I'm sure you'll get there in the end! :hug:
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Thanks, Shirley, I will definitely order the Feliway and will look the other one up. Ant then pray that it would help! :-:
Tabi didn't go out before Fred appered, she is a very shy and nervous cat. She had been stray before the RSPCA took it, so we think that, may be, she had had some bad experience and that's why she doesn't want to go out at all. She look petrified, if anything. She is quite happy in the bedroom, it's just me - I feel that it is unfair that she can't wander around when she feels like it...
Fred is the opposite - he hates being locked upstairs. I think because he is too far away from his food bowl! He is eager to go outside, but we are waiting for 4 weeks as we only took him 23.02.
My family accused me of favouritism of Tabi and that I don't like Fred. I do! I just feel so sorry for the girl, because it is her who is being bullied! My husband really upset me today, he said that if I am so worried about the situation, I should take Fred back. It is not an option!!! I just want to solve this problem and his attitude doesn't help at all. He also said that it is not a life with the bedroom doors closed and constant fear that the cats could be out at the same time ... :(
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Hello Irina :)
I don't get on here very much but Shirley pointed me in the direction of your thread.
I'm the one from CatChat who has been using the Bach's Flower Remedies and I have to say I think they are wonderful.
I don't put it in their water or food as they won't eat/drink anything with it on. I put a couple of drops in the palm of my hand and stroke their heads/ears with it.
I use Larch on Paolo to boost his confience and Vine on Murphy for his bullying/dominance. Mimulus, Centaury and Rock Rose would be beneficial for your girl as well I think.
I also started off using Zylkene as well. This is a completely natural stressbuster that I find really works. Feliway did nothing for my cats.
The whole dynamic between my boys has changed now. Paolo will stick up for himself more and actually instigate chase/play although it does still end in a bit of fur flying it's 100x better than it was.
If you'd like to read my thread on CC here is a link...
http://www.catchat.org/forum/discus/show.cgi?18/200215
Good luck hun. I know what a nightmare it can be...not helped by not having a fully supportive and understanding hubby :(
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Sorry Irina-got it wrong about putting it in the water! oops! :innocent:
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Thank you, ladies, for your advise! I've ordered the whole lot - Feliway, mimulus and vine. Will report later how it goes! :)
Suecav, you said that you stroke your cats with the remedies on your palm - how often do you do it? Twice a day? Five times a day? More?
Fred ventured outside for the first time today, ran to the next dorr's garden and went back in. But I think he liked it. He will be the outdoor cat, I am sure.
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I stroke their heads and ears with the remedy in my palm 2 or 3 times a day.
I haven't used any remedy or Zylkene for a few days now and they are still getting on ok.
One of the most noticeable benefits is that Paolo no longer growls and hisses every time he senses Murphy's presence.
In fact he's more likely to go up to him and sniff him all over and then wash his ears :wow:
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It is the shy Tabi who hissed and growled - only the first time, though, she didn't have a chance afterwards! First time Fred was walking around her and sniffing and then dashed onto her and they fought. Second time I didn't see the beginning of it, but they fought violently, with bits of fur and all. Now Tabi is so scared of him, I think, that she doesn't want to come downstairs really and spends her time mainly in my bedroom.
So, I hope with the help of these remedies to boost her confidence and make her a bit "braver" and to tame Fred the Bully. Do you think it's possible?
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Yes I absolutely do think it's possible :)
Tabi is hissing and growling out of fear...not aggression. Make sure she has plenty of safe areas where she can get away from Fred.
Your bedroom is fine if that is what she is using as her safe room.
Does it end in a fight every time they come into contact with each other?
If so I would keep them apart completely for a week or so and do the slow introductions with scent swapping all over again.
Start them on the bachs when it arrives and then take things very slowly.
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How's it going, Irina? :hug: :hug:
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Hi, Shirley
I let Fred outside twice and he loved it! Still comes back to use his litter box, silly billy! :)
I plugged in the Feliway on in my bedroom where Tabi mainly resides and yesterday I received Mimulus and Vine at last, so started using it today. Too early to tell, I realise that. But I do so hope it will work!
I still let them out in turns and Tabi doesn't look so petrified any more when she goes downstairs. She doesn't come downstairs very often, but then she always liked to "live" in my bedroom, even before Fred appeared. Like you said, she feels safe there so I don't force her to come downstairs, just leave the bedroom door open and let her get on with it. I try to be patient and do things slowly, though I really want them just to get along - NOT FIGHT! - that's all I am asking for...
Thank you for asking, Shirley, I will keep you updated.
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Sounds encouraging, Irina! Hopefully the remedies will soon kick in and you'll have two happy cats! ;D Glad Fred enjoyed his time outside! My Charlie did the same-no matter how long he was out, he'd still come in and use his tray!! (This is a cat who'd lived all his life outside!!) :Crazy: Now he hardly uses it at all so i worry i won't know if there's anything wrong with him! He can't win! :rofl: I'm hoping to borrow a carrier tomorrow and get him registered with my vet-should be fun :rofl: :rofl:
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Hi Irina,
You should find the flower remedies start working almost straightaway.
I could see a difference within the first 2 days of using them.
Here's a link to the site I use to check which remedies would be most beneficial for which situation.
http://www.critterchat.net/bach.htm
Good luck and keep us updated please
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Thank you, ladies, for your support!
Could you tell me, what changes did you notice in the "bully" cat when using the remedies? I wonder when do I know that it is ok to try to introduce them again... Oh, dear! I am dreading it. Tabi is so nervous that I think she will run away and hide at one glimpse of him! Fred is very interested, though. He often sits on the landing near the closed bedroom door, where Tabi is. Is it a good sign or he is up to no good?
Shirley, Fred is using his litter tray as well! Silly cat! I said to him: "This is the whole point of you going outside - to do your business in the (someone else's) garden!" He looked at me and had a poo in the tray... ;D
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Have you tried 'the wedged open door' yet? If not, i suggest you do that, so they can see as well as smell each other! :hug: :hug:
I haven't used any of the remedies so you'll have to wait for Sue to come on for that. Have you noticed any difference in Tabi, i.e not being quite so nervous?
I'm off to borrow the carrier soon-hopefully to get Charlie to the vets tonight-should be fun, as i've only picked him up twice in his life! :rofl: :rofl:
It's good they use the tray tho-from what i've learned on here and CC, you can tell if they've got cystitis by how many times they wee-which needs immediate treatment in a male cat-but you can't know that when they do it outside! My Chuch has never uses a tray.................... :sigh:
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Irina ~
Murph used to terrorise Paolo because he knew Paolo was scared of him. It was as if he just couldn't help himself from pouncing on him as Paolo tried to slink past with plenty of warning growls and hisses. Murphy is a typical naughty boisterous kitten (although no longer technically a kitten) and Paolo is/was an old man before his time.
The main difference I noticed was Paolo's increased confidence and willingness to stand up to Murphy and actually instigate the chase/play.
Once the cycle of Paolo's OTT defensiveness was broken the dynamic between the two changed dramatically.
I can actually leave them alone in the same space now if I nip out for something. I wouldn't even have considered that before.
They wash each other and play together (still ends in a scrap sometimes and fur does fly but it's more equal now).
My main aim in trying the remedies was to improve Paolo's quality of life which I feel I have achieved.
He's no longer living in fear of the next ambush by Murphy and is a far happier and less stresses boy...plus he's rediscovered his playful side.
Good luck with your two. Just take it nice and slowly with the reintroductions and if in doubt go back a step. Don't rush it.
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I have 6 cats and they have come to me 1 or 2 at a time so had plenty of intros to do. I adopted an old girl at the weekend so starting intros myself.
I set the new cat up in a 'safe' room but I'll let the new cat explore the house whilst the others are out. If the new cat seems confident then I set up a dog crate with a litter tray, bed, food and water and for a little while each evening I'll put the new cat into it and let the other cats come in and see her in the crate. It gives them an opportunity to get used to each other without allowing them to actually get at each other. What tends to happen is that the residents will get braver and braver about getting closer to the crate until eventually they are right up beside it. When they seem disinterested in the crate and it's inhabitant then I'll leave the door open to the cage so they can meet in person. It's worked very successfully for me in the past and must stress always limit the time newbie is in the cage so not spending hours after hours in it.
When I say dog crate/cage I mean one of these:
http://www.justlovedogs.co.uk/jld/mib/d/24+economy+dog+cage+black+lightweight+dog+crate+with+2+doors/pid/7776653
I do use feliway as well.
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Sue, my case is very similar to yours. Fred is a good cat, but he is having a go at Tabi because she is scared of him. And, like you, I think that if she could stand for herself, he would stop chasing her. And, like you, I want Tabi's life to be normal again, so that she would stop hiding in the bedroom and lived freely.
So, you think I should concentrate on Tabi more? I rub Fred with Vine hoping to reduce his aggressiveness and Tabi 0 with Mimulus to boost her confidence. Can you suggest better remedies, perhaps? And good luck with Paopo! ;D
Shirley, I tried the wedged door, Fred sits outside sniffing but Tabi hides under the bed... I will continue though.
Sixfurballs, thank you for your wonderful post. It is very interesting. I tried to put Fred (the new one) to the cat carrier and get Tabi (the first one in the house) to sniff around but as soon as she realised that he was there she ran away ahd hid... Fred hated being there and narly broke the carrier. Tabi tends to just lay around in the bedroom even when the door is open. Shall I carry her downstairs, do you think? She used to be ok with it, it breaks my heart to see these changes! :'( Fred is much braver and more outgoing, he likes to explore and already goes outside every day now. He loves it!
I had a dream last night that I brought another 4 cats home and nearly died in my sleep from horror that I would have to introduce them all to each other! :)
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Crikey, don't you ever sleep, lol?? Charlie used to hide under the bed as well when i had the door wedged-but not all the time. They would both sniff each other through the gap and, eventually, it did the trick! For all you know, they may be doing the same-you don't stand by the door all day, do you? :rofl: I live in a bungalow, so it was easy for me to keep having a peek at what was going on! :sneaky:
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Sue, my case is very similar to yours. Fred is a good cat, but he is having a go at Tabi because she is scared of him. And, like you, I think that if she could stand for herself, he would stop chasing her. And, like you, I want Tabi's life to be normal again, so that she would stop hiding in the bedroom and lived freely.
So, you think I should concentrate on Tabi more? I rub Fred with Vine hoping to reduce his aggressiveness and Tabi 0 with Mimulus to boost her confidence. Can you suggest better remedies, perhaps? And good luck with Paopo! ;D
Hi Irina,
I would recommend Centaury and Larch as well as the Mimulus for Tabi. You can combine up to 5 remedies (I think...maybe 6) so I would put a drop of each in my hand and smooth the combination of remedies onto Tabi's head. I would keep going with the Vine for Fred too.
Another thing you could try is Zylkene. They are capsules that you break open and sprinkle on food. I think Tabi could benefit from a course of these as well. They are completely natural but I have seem some impressive results with these too. Cheaper online than at the vets.
Have you got your Feliway yet? Some cats respond to that very well. Mine didn't but I know a lot of cats that have.
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Girls, it's working!!! A miracle!!!!
For two days now Tabi behaves like her old self! She doesn't hide in my bedroom all the time any more, she goes downstairs on her own and she runs around chasing bits of paper (ignoring all the toys as they do) and she is all over me again demanding love and attention - normally when I am sitting at the computer...
I am so happy! I was seriously worried that Fred's appearance had a permanent bad effect on her. But she recovered!
:Luv: :wow: ;D
Thank you so, so much!
I will carry on with remedies, of course.
I wonder, if they had an effect on Fred, though, so that I can attempt to re-introduce them again...
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FANTASTIC NEWS IRINA!!! :wow:
I'm so pleased for you. It's such a relief when you can actually see the change taking place isn't it?
Long may it continue :cat rub:
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That's brilliant news, Irina!!!! :wooooo: So pleased for you and Tabi! :hug: :hug: Hope it won't be too long before they can meet again-how long have you kept them seperate this time??
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We brought Fred about a month ago and they had this horrible fight the first day. We kept them separate for a week and then another fight errupted by accident (Fred managed to open the bedroom door). Since then they didn't meet face-to-face, though I tried to wedge the door couple of times and, obviously, they can smell each other's when they are out. My plan is to wedg e the door nore often and then... what? Don't know yet. :shy:
What do you think?
Oh, thank you again so much for your help, advise and support! :hug:
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I used to keep the door wedged open all the time (except when i was out and at bedtime) Do they sniff each other by the door? Which one is shut in? My newcomer was the one shut in, but allowed out when the oldie (Chuch) was outside. I think you should probably wedge the door for a few more days and see how they react to each other by the door. If there's no hissing or growling, then let them meet-be prepared to dive in if things get aggresive tho! I'm no expert by the way, this is just my own personal experience! Good luck! :hug: :hug:
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They are shut in in turns and no? I didn't notice that they shiff each other - yet. But will practice it more from now on.
A litlle bit of a set back tonight - Tabi was reluctant to go dowstairs and fllowed me upstairs as soon as I went there. Oh well, only to be expected, can't be normall straight away, takes time, I suppose.
And thank you, Shirley - your and others own experience is what I need. Boooks and websites are all very well, but what really happened to other people and cats is much more helpfull.
:hug:
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Just wanted to say, hi mum!!! :D