Purrs In Our Hearts - Cat Forum UK
Cat Health & Behaviour => Health & Behaviour General => Topic started by: Fire Fox on October 19, 2009, 14:58:48 PM
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When I adopted Noah I was advised that he had previously been quite itchy and often had toxic poos. :sick: He is also possibly a little overweight as he doesn't have a waist, although if you stroke his belly it feels solid, not fat. He was fed Felix wet and JWB dry as it is hypoallergenic, but I have changed the Felix to Feline Fayre and we have had no toxic poos since! ;D I gave him a sample of Royal Canin dry and he scratched several times the next day, the first time I have seen Noah do so: it seems something in mainstream foods does not agree with him.
I'd like to keep him on a mix of wet and dry foods, perhaps with some raw. For dry I am going to use up a few more of the (hypoallergenic) samples then move to Orijen and/ or Applaws as these are grain free. The reasonably priced quality wet foods such as Pets at Home Purely and Feline Fayre are all fish flavours and I notice FF is not complete. So I thought of occasionally feeding some raw skinless chicken wings as Value/ Smartprice are very cheap, and maybe buying some liver and heart ... I have read a few of the websites that have been recommended but they seem to be recommending American supplements, and also focussed on feeding BARF full-time which means it's critical to get sufficient minerals and taurine.
Can I add anything such as bonemeal to complementary foods to make them complete? If I mash up some raw liver and heart and freeze in an ice cube tray will that be enough to make the chicken wing meal balanced? Do I need to add any supplements to this, or does it not matter as I am not feeding BARF all the time? This will only ever be as an addition to quality complete dry food, but I don't want to blindly over or under feed essential nutrients. I assume there is enough vegetables in Orijen to aid elimination, I do have cat grass but Noah isn't interested?
Thank you!
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I would alternative the fish pouches you are using with poultry based ones, some of which will be complete ;D
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Thanks for the reply! That is what I am planning initially, bought some Hills poultry flavour (voucher!) and also Hi-Life. Maybe I am trying to make things too complicated! :-[
I would like Noah to have some bones as he is only three and has already had to have teeth removed, I think bones clean the teeth better than dry food? Also I wondered if his belly was a bit of constipation as he doesn't really do a lot of exercise, I think bones help keep everything moving? I was also interested to read anecdotes of cats getting leaner, cleaner ears and more energetic on BARF! :wow:
Lastly I am on a low income and chicken wings are a lot cheaper than the really good quality poultry wet foods (he is insured with AXA and I would raid my savings in a heartbeat for any vet care). I absolutely don't want to jump in and feed an unbalanced diet for the sake of saving money, and I will ask the vet about his weight when we next go for his ears cleaning and his claws clipping. From what I have read on MSE pet forums the vets tend to recommend Hills dry for weight management, but I don't like their ethics and they don't seem to be hypoallergenic.
There is just so much to think about!
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If he IS constipated then bone wouldnt help this, i also wouldnt worry about weight until the vet sees him and gives his verdict ;D
Raw chicken wings do help teeth, its what i give my lot and do see a reduction in tartar :wow: if you are giving raw as a treat rather then main diet then you really dont need to worry about balancing it with liver or heart as his complete dry/pouches will cover what he needs, however he probably wouldnt mind having some offal as a treat
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I'd avoid Hills like the plague! specially dry - its the carbs thing again, certainly no good for cats that are a little overweight!
Like MM said, if you are feeding good quality complete wet foods plus some raw meals, there should be no need for supplementation because his overall diet will be balanced, you are aiming for a balance of nutrients over time - rather than a precise balance at each meal. Bones are definitely good for teeth and gums as are large chunks of meat that mean they have to work their jaws. The Hi life real meat pouches are pretty good and the Purely range from PAH that you mentioned is similar (cheaper, but in 85g pouches rather than 100g pouches for Hi Life), what about Natures Menu? thats also high meat and no carb.
I expect you've seen this site, but just in case you havent, its a good site for info about amounts of muscle meat, bone and organ meat for good nutritional balance
http://rawfedcats.org/ and this one's good for general info about raw feeding http://fnes.org/
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Thanks to both of you!
I bought the Hills Science pouches as I had a £5 voucher which meant a pack of twelve cost £1.80! But I didn't read the darn ingredients properly .... the chicken is 35% and the Turkey only 4% meat and, yes, there are cereals. >:( Probably the same quality as the Felix he had before. We will have to eat the pouches we have and then no more: I'd only buy Hills with a voucher anyway as I don't want to support that company. Dry food we are definitely moving onto Orijen as I have already bought it, and will try Applaws dry next time it's on offer. Natures Menu is definitely cheaper than Applaws and Almo wet: if it came onto offer at Pets at Home that would be ideal! I don't really want to be using my savings for food and litter as then I won't have the reserve for household stuff and unexpected vet bills. I think it's healthier to have a top quality dry and a mid quality wet than the other way around?
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I think it's healthier to have a top quality dry and a mid quality wet than the other way around?
Personally, if it came to that sort of choice, I would opt for good quality wet only which I think is far healthier than any dry. :) The Food4Cats meats work out pretty good value and are also the right balance of meat, organs and bones, they do a taster pack for £10 refundable on your first order - might be worth a try? http://www.food4-cats.co.uk/
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Personally, if it came to that sort of choice, I would opt for good quality wet only which I think is far healthier than any dry. :) The Food4Cats meats work out pretty good value and are also the right balance of meat, organs and bones, they do a taster pack for £10 refundable on your first order - might be worth a try? http://www.food4-cats.co.uk/
Thanks again, everyone is helpful here on Purrs without being judgemental: I will try that taster pack, that's a great idea. I would ideally like to keep some dry food as it's so convenient in the summer, but reduce the amount and serve it in his SlimCat ball to keep him entertained and exercising! :tired: I know boy cats especially can suffer with crystals in the bladder on all dry diets: Noah drinks very regularly even after a wet only meal which is good. Hopefully as I keep my eyes open on MSE and here the best wet foods will come on offer and I can stock up a bit.
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Hopefully as I keep my eyes open on MSE and here the best wet foods will come on offer and I can stock up a bit.
Have you looked into Bozita wet at all? I'm no expert on nutrition but I like to feed my boys the best I can on a budget. I feed half wet, half dry - Bozita has up to 93% meat content (when you look at the ingredients don't be put off by the >4%, that is in relation to the 'main flavour' so for example the Crayfish ingredients are: Chicken, pork, crayfish (min. 4% in the chunk), minerals, egg, dill, ß-1,3/1,6-glucan. So it has a min of 4% crayfish itself but the meat content across all the flavours ranges from 80-90%
Now the best thing about Bozita is that it works out cheaper than the likes of Felix and Whiskas! It comes in 370g cartons which equates to approximately 4 pouches ( 4 x 100g). Each carton is £1 so that's £3 for the near equivalent of a 12 pack of pouches! It's available from a few places in the UK but the most reliable, cheapest source is Zooplus (click on the link at the bottom of the page and Purrs gets 5% commission from any orders) - free delivery over £29.
Bozita cat food is high quality full-diet cat food from Sweden. Due to the strict Swedish food-processing regulations, only first-class raw ingredients are used in Bozita.
Independently of your cat’s favourite you rely on the quality of Bozita:
* High meat content up to 93%
* Only fresh Swedish meat
* No artificial colourings, flavourings or preservatives
* Macrogard – the natural immunizer
* Sugar-free
* Lean on fat
* Wheat gluten-free
* Naturally high in taurine for your cat’s eyes and reproduction
Bozita products are made from quality Swedish meats, fish, shellfish and eggs. They are free of soy, grain and preservatives, and lean on fat - only 4%. Due to their high meat content, Bozita cat foods have a well-balanced profile of amino acids. Bozita meals are naturally rich in vitamins A, B and D, and also enriched with taurine. Vitamin A and taurine are essential for your cat's vision. Bozita dishes contain perfectly balanced Omega-3 fatty acids to promote a shiny and soft coat, and Vitamins C and E are added for their positive effects on the immune system, and for their natural antioxidant properties.
Bozita Chunks in Jelly features:
* Meat in an appetizing clear jelly
* No soy proteins or grains
* Free from artificial aromas and preservatives
* No meat meal
* Practical packaging
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Now that is my kind of quality at my kind of price! :hug: I don't mind 4% main flavour if I understand what the other ingredients are ... derivatives just sound like a cover name (and they are). I'm not too worried about mail ordering wet food as I am pretty confident Noah would eat whatever I put down! Thank you, I will be ordering as soon as I get paid ... might still try that £10 pack of raw, I am intrigued.
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I just had to share ... just got home from Asda and decided to skin and freeze all the chicken wings so they remain fresh. Noah was already moping around the food bowl, and when I opened the pack he was straight around my legs. Before the chicken wing even got to his bowl he was purring loudly :Crazy: and is now devouring it!! I cannot believe it, he actually prefers it to stinky fishy cat food. The minor problem is he has legged it across the room three times from the washable laminate onto my expensive rug .... :evillaugh:
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Lucky boy, this mummy doesnt skin things :evillaugh: iv got a pack defrosting at the moment, if your interested then waitrose do free range/organic wings, everywhere else iv looked only do the mass produced value ones :tired:
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Lucky boy, this mummy doesnt skin things :evillaugh: iv got a pack defrosting at the moment, if your interested then waitrose do free range/organic wings, everywhere else iv looked only do the mass produced value ones :tired:
I mainly skinned them because they were Smartprice ... I know the fat will be full of growth hormone and antibiotics. :'( I don't think we have Waitrose up North but I'm sure I've seen skinless wings in the Halal butcher section at Asda, and Halal is much less 'chemically' than battery meat. Sadly they only had tikka-marinaded wings today! I have two (whoopsied) organic chickens in the freezer, so if they smell really fresh I'll hack the wings off before roasting. I gave Noah two of the 'forearm' sections of a wing which means four bones, but only two were left in the bowl. My dad knows of a good butcher so I will get him to ask if they have any free raw breastbones/ carcasses - he has no shame!! :evillaugh: Hopefully Noah will eat more if they are smaller bones.
I am totally blown away by the purring, I was honestly expecting a :-: sort of response!
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Well done Noah! Sadly, mine came to chicken wings too late for their teeth and for them to be able to actually eat the bones. Some of them manage small bones though. The breastbones are usually pretty 'crunchable' especiallly when a large chunk of meat is attached! ;)
Food4Cats do chicken wings, not sure about the source though. Sainsbury's does organic chicken wings, not too expensive.
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Well done Noah! Sadly, mine came to chicken wings too late for their teeth and for them to be able to actually eat the bones. Some of them manage small bones though. The breastbones are usually pretty 'crunchable' especiallly when a large chunk of meat is attached! ;)
Food4Cats do chicken wings, not sure about the source though. Sainsbury's does organic chicken wings, not too expensive.
Noah is a proper little carnivore! I will definitely give him a wing most days now. Wonder how he will react to the trial pack from food4cats? Makes it seem even worse that there are 'complete' dry foods that contain practically no meat. >:( There is a Sainsbury in Leeds I sometimes visit so will look for better quality wings there, thanks.
Do you know what age it's safe to feed a raw chicken wing to a kitten? Several of the MSE lot are interested as I have pointed out wings are cheaper than many pouches, and one has asked about kittens (I assume they are over eight weeks as they have left mum). I copied and pasted some stuff written by vets that said start 'young' and I said I thought if the kitten could break the bone they could chew it safely, but that is just an educated guess??
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There are breeders now who wean their kittens straight onto raw ;D i would think they would just chew the meat off the bone to start with as wouldnt have the jaw muscles or mouth size to crunch the bone up
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:thanks: There is a mini-revolution going on over on the MSE 'Pets and Pet Care' board, we now have four active threads on feline nutrition topics!! ;D As you'd expect, lots of debate on value-for-money wet and dry cat foods, a couple of raw feeders adding comments, and a good few interested in trying chicken wings as a supplement.
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ooh what are the value for money people saying - I'm always on the look out for new wet foods, my goal is to get all three eating the same (won't ever happen lol!)
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There are breeders now who wean their kittens straight onto raw ;D
It's def a good idea as then the new owner can decide how they want to feed their cat rather than having a 3-4 month old kitten who has eaten nothing but dry food and won't touch anything else. I gave mine half raw and half ' commercial' wet and dry food. Sunrise wouldn't touch either wet or dry commercial kitten food to start with but when faced with raw lamb mince and chicken wings tucked straight in. I just learnt to be very careful with how you put the words 'mice','rabbit' and 'day old chicks' into conversation as some people looked absolutely horrified :evillaugh:
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Do you know what age it's safe to feed a raw chicken wing to a kitten?
I introduced them at about about 4-5 weeks old and they 'hunted' and 'killed' them. They didn't eat the bone though they just chomped their heart out on it.
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Dawn F: I suggested Feline Fayre: the large 400g tins if you can find them in Asda are especially good value at 59p a tin or £1.50 per kilo, but pouches are on offer in Asda and Home Bargains. Hi-Life from Home Bargains, Pets at Home own brand Purely - the small 160g tins are better value than the pouches. Also a few people like Bozita as suggested by Helen (Tiggy's Mum), someone said Butcher's Classic for cats doesn't have any additives and is a similar price to the Feline Fayre, one is raw feeding with ready-made from Food4Cats (£20 per month for two).
I don't see why you couldn't supplement a cheaper complete food with daily raw chicken wings, if your furbabies will eat raw of course. Noah's had his second raw chicken wing this time just half (an extra large 'bicep') which again went down a storm and kept him occupied for over half an hour. ;) I got ten good-sized wings for £1.85 so averages out to 12p per meal if I serve one large or two small joints.
Lottie: that's helpful thank you. The way Noah tucks into the chicken wings, he really does seem to know that raw is what he is meant to eat! It's strange as to me the chicken doesn't smell of anything, especially compared with tinned cat food. No idea if he has hunted before, unlikely when he was a stray as his paws were in such a bad way I would imagine he just scavenged.
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thanks FF, one of mine currently eats purely but the other two won't touch it - I've had limited sucess with the frozen mince from Jolleyes as well - I'll try feline fayre though, I still have two on as good as it looks felix and I'd love to wean them off - we've had a thumbs down all round for Bozita but sadly none of them would eat it and I had ordered about 30 cartons which ended up with mums cat!
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Natural instinct shines through! Gooey has been having raw here and hes 12, i dont know if he hunted in his younger days but he enjoys it no end now ;D
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Now I have another question ... discovered Morrisons sell all sorts of potential kitty delights - chicken livers, pig heart and ... sprats! I bought some sprats, can I feed them to Noah whole and raw (assuming he is up for the challenge)?? Tomorrow we are trialling the raw food I ordered from Food4Cats and I am worried he will not be impressed. Earlier he was crying for a taster as I was making .... pizza. :rofl: He doesn't even like cheese!
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Ginger used to love raw liver and chicken, and he had no teeth!! Just be careful with feeding dry as well as raw, as they go through the digestion system in different times, so most raw feeders dont recommend feeding both together (although in fairness, most just dont recommend dry).
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Definitely never feed any fish raw. It needs at least 30 seconds on a high boil to kill something harmful (not sure what it is though :-: )
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Now I have another question ... discovered Morrisons sell all sorts of potential kitty delights - chicken livers, pig heart and ... sprats! I bought some sprats, can I feed them to Noah whole and raw (assuming he is up for the challenge)?? Tomorrow we are trialling the raw food I ordered from Food4Cats and I am worried he will not be impressed. Earlier he was crying for a taster as I was making .... pizza. :rofl: He doesn't even like cheese!
Mine love ox hearts (I get those from Morrisons too). I have given mine sprats before but several of them arent that keen on fish. You can feed fish raw, but I remember cooking the sprats briefly to release the aromas :sick:
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Just subscribing.
I gave Spud the full range of Almo 27 cans from a kitten, he has never been fussy and will eat everything... literally anything he can find, would like to try some RAW help his teeth ( I thought cats didn't chew? ). What would you recommend to start with? Does it deliver well i.e. not defrost in transit and just go off?
Cheers
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They don't chew as such. With prey, they would tear at the flesh into digestible pieces, the bones would be crunched and its the combination of crunching down on the bones/gristle/flesh that helps teeth - so chicken wings (raw only) are one of the best things to help with teeth cleaning.
The raw packs from Food4 cats are sent in insulated packs. The more meat you order the lesss likely it is to defrost. The smaller packs you may find some starting to defrost, but just get them straight in the freezer and they are fine. They do minced meat varieties as well as chunks of meat with bone-in, like wild rabbit.
If you are starting with raw, I'd probably try some cubs of raw meat first and work up to bones. :)
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He has been on real meat his whole life, Almo Applaws Schesir and Natures Menu but I'll take your advice start on the Chicken blocks. Will he get the rest of his nutrients from the dry foods I feed? If I only gave him raw in the morning I mean
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He has been on real meat his whole life, Almo Applaws Schesir and Natures Menu
Although meat they are cooked and require very little chewing, some cats take a while to work out how to eat raw so starting in small cubes is easier for them, others dive straight in munching ;D
Tabitha has been having raw for ages but will still only eat small pieces, no chewing for her :tired:
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:thanks: everyone for their contribution, am learning on the job as you can tell!!
The Food4Cats stuff is complete as far as I know as the 'mince' is actually a coarse mix of minced meat, bone, liver and heart. Mine arrived in a polystyrene container almost completely frozen, and it says on the website that is fine: Noah now has his own personal ice box full of food! He had his first dose of raw beef yesterday morning and was purring like mad as he ate it! :wow:
He had a third of a sausage in total - which is actually a huge amount of meat - and his 'doings' have remained virtually smell-free. I spoke to his fosterer a few days ago and she said he always used to go twice a day, and it was especially smelly if he had too much wet food. :sick: He's only gone once a day for most of the time he's been here so I wonder if something in Felix was aggravating his digestive system?
Noah loves fishy cat food and prawns :innocent: so I am hoping the sprats will go down well - it's cheaper per kilo than the decent fish cat food, so it's a no brainer to add it in! I think we are both converted to a largely raw diet, tho we will keep some dry for convenience. I intend that to be Orijen or Applaws, which are high in meat/ grain free so should pass through about the same speed?? I am lucky as he drinks plenty of water, even when he isn't eating much dry.
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I spoke to his fosterer a few days ago and she said he always used to go twice a day, and it was especially smelly if he had too much wet food. :sick: He's only gone once a day for most of the time he's been here so I wonder if something in Felix was aggravating his digestive system?
Does Felix contain cereals and/or veg proteins? if so it would likely be those that didnt agree with him. With raw there is less waste produced because no unnecessary fillers. :)
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wow Spud enjoyed his first raw chicken block. Looking forward to getting some chicken wings! But to make this complete I need to have the dry food, correct?
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All dry food whether high meat/low meat and high grain takes longer to digest than raw food. So they need to be fed at different times and never together.
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Gillian: according to Ocado the gravy contains cereals, not the jelly Felix. Can cats be sensitive to derivatives?? He hasn't had a lot of those here as I have mostly stuck with Feline Fayre/ PAH Purely (all fish). He's had a few Hills pouches (poultry) which contain both cereals and derivatives and wasn't stinky.
Dry wise Noah was on JWB in the foster home which is hypoallergenic but contains rice I think? He was very itchy in and around his ears for a couple of days after a sample of RC indoor dry, which is probably high in cereals, so I stopped that immediately. He moved fairly quickly onto Orijen so he has had a fairly low intake of cereals overall for much of his time here.
Den: will bear that in mind, luckily I do feed Noah several times a day anyway as he is constantly interested when I go into the kitchen. He's hardly had any dry the last two days as I think I gave him too much raw!! He has licked the bowl clean, and jumped all over me in bed this morning for breakfast. :Luv:
Spud: You need something else to make the diet complete, but it can be a complete wet or complete dry or complete raw. I am feeding a bit of everything at present! Great to hear Spud the cat is another convert, it's weird in a good way to see them relishing raw meat. :shocked: You will have to start stocking frozen raw in your store, the Holland and Barratt for pets!!
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We do already but I never really thought about cats having it, nor does the company selling it particulary as it mentions dogs but not much on cats. He does love it! Looking forward to getting him some chicken wings
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wow Spud enjoyed his first raw chicken block. Looking forward to getting some chicken wings! But to make this complete I need to have the dry food, correct?
Look at these sites to get more info about a properly balanced raw diet, if you do it properly there is really no need for any other food
http://catinfo.org/
http://rawfedcats.org/
http://fnes.org/
http://www.catnutrition.org/index.php
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Noah had his first cubed raw bone-in rabbit today, and was wandering around the flat for ages chewing one piece. It was DEFINITELY cleaning his teeth as it was making that awful nails-on-blackboard noise! It's quite expensive so gave him some kibble as well, might pad out with tongue or heart once I have placed another raw order. He is still purring almost every time I feed raw as well as for prawns. :Luv: Noah liked Bozita but not as much as Feline Fayre, so might try a different flavour next time: I liked the resealable tetrapacks very much.
We had a couple of really really :sick: 'doings' on a sample of hypoallergenic food, Arovit First Class, which is rice-based so now not sure if that was causing his problems on the JWB/ Felix combination! Currently no problems on Encore kibble mixed with a small amount of Hi Life to dilute the cereals.
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We had a couple of really really :sick: 'doings' on a sample of hypoallergenic food, Arovit First Class, which is rice-based so now not sure if that was causing his problems on the JWB/ Felix combination! Currently no problems on Encore kibble mixed with a small amount of Hi Life to dilute the cereals.
Don't think there are cereals in the Encore biscuit are there?
Mine make a meal of the bone in rabbit too (mind you many of mine are dentally challenged :evillaugh: )
What flavour Bozita did you try? Mine don't like many flavours, but really love the Reindeer (which is more of a pate style rather than chunks) and the Turkey.
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Ooops terrible punctuation/ grammar! No cereals in Encore (=Applaws) but maize in the Hi-Life kibble, hence mixed the good stuff with the freebie. Noah also had his first raw egg last week, tho only once I put a bit of VIYO in! If I can do little things like this it saves a bit of money without compromising on quality too much. :-[
Noah ate all of the rabbit bone except the one big piece which he finally abandoned on my rug :censored: it's filthy anyway from ingrained cat litter! We had Bozita chicken and liver in jelly, I haven't tried him on any pate style food yet but have no doubt he will eat it - greedy monkey ...
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Ah, yes, see what you mean ;) Mine actually seem to tolerate the Hi Life biscuit quite well, better than most drys, despite the rice and maize, but they don't get much of it, just a little snackette :evillaugh:
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Another cheap wet food with a high meat content is Animonda. I buy the 400g tins of animonda carny from zooplus - they work out very cost effective, esp when on offer. They do contain by products, but no cereal and are complete
http://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/cats/canned_cat_food_pouches/animonda/cans/14034#composition
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Furball again this morning with a huge piece of rabbit bone in! :scared:
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Oh, poor Noah. I guess he ate too fast and it didnt agree with him? Or he couldn't digest it hence it came out? I guess it's better than if it was stuck inside him? It might be worth calling the vet and just checking with him/her to be safe.
BTW, have finally ordered the sample pack from Food4cats yesterday after reading this thread and other info on MSE. fingers crossed the kittens'll like it.
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I haven't contacted the vet: Noah is eating like the same greedy monkey, going to the toilet normally, cuddling/ purring and having the crazy five minutes three times a day, basically business as usual!! :Crazy: He is insured so I would not hesitate to rush him to the vet if there were any changes. At 3am I woke to find him sat on my chest of drawers with his paw in my undies drawer (which was not quite closed) flicking stockings and socks all over the floor, then opening the drawer wide and getting in! :rofl: The funny part is there were undies on the floor a few days ago, and I couldn't for the life of me work out why ...
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Bone will take longer to digest and as its with a hairball i wouldnt worry, bone on its own would be more of a concern
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:rofl: there was you thinking you had a stalker going through your undies and it was Noah trying them on in your absence.
Well, he certainly seems well and up to his old tricks so wouln't worry too much about the bone.