Purrs In Our Hearts - Cat Forum UK
Cat Health & Behaviour => Health & Behaviour General => Topic started by: Michelle (furbabystar) on October 13, 2009, 11:30:54 AM
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My Mums cat has been diagnosed with this and put on fortekor.
Anyone got any useless tips or imformation please
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Do you mean useful or was that done on purpose....?
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:evillaugh: :hug:
Sorry no info just a big :hug: for your mum and her babe! :Luv2:
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This link has some info which may help Michelle:-
http://www.purrsinourhearts.co.uk/index.php/topic,23398.0.html
eta: Pepper is on Fortekor for his heart and he seems to be doing fine.
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The leaflet says for heart disease in dogs and renal insufficiency in cats but I don't see why it would help cats as well - it basically opens up arteries so blood can flow more easily.
As it is a long-term med, I would get her to ask her vet about Benazepril. They are 5mg tablets so only 1/2 tablet a day needed but they are 1/2 the price of Fortekor. I have switched mine over to it. On Friday I got 4 boxes of 14 tablets for £46 which is 112 doses.
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Benazepril and Fortekor are one and the same: benazepril is the generic drug name and Fortekor the trade name. Generic will be cheaper the same as it is cheaper to my ibuprofen than Nurofen.
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:-[ I meant to say Benazecare. The good thing is the tablets are tiny so easier to hide. The generic form of Benazepril is very recent - ie in the last few months and some vets aren't aware of it. I have contacted the makers to suggest a 2.5mg film coated version for cats and they tell me the idea been passed to their product development team for consideration :shify:
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My Sam has congestive heart failure due to HCM, he's on Fortekor and diuretics, plus rutin because when he was initially diagnosed he was very poorly with a chylous effusion (fluid which had to be drained off). He's been on this combo since August last year and is doing pretty well.
He's also on a taurine supplement - v good for cats with heart failure, he gets 500mg a day. You can buy taurine from health food shops, I get mine here http://www.good4you.co.uk/store.asp?pid=109 . Co-enzyme Q10 is also good, as is L-Carnitine - there is a supplement that combines things like taurine, L-carnitine etc its called Cardio Strength http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Cardio-Strength-for-Dogs-Cats-90-Capsules-16431_W0QQitemZ220283557537QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3349ec56a1&_trksid=p3286.m63.l1177
I got lots of good advice from the Yahoo heat group when Sam was first diagnosed http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/feline-heart/ - so might be worth your mum joining :hug:
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Congestive heart failure is a change in the hearts ability to cope with the amount of load its put under so it cannot fully cope with the circulating volume of blood. Generally caused by hypertrophy (thickening) of the walls of the ventricles. It can also be caused by heart attack, Ischaemic heart disease, Hypertrophic cardio myopathy (HCM) and long term hypertension. The thickening walls of the ventricles causes a reduced stroke volume and a reduced cardiac output. This can result in fluid pooling - oedema, shortness of breath and a reduced exercise tolerance.
Fortekor is an ACE inhibitor which has an effect on the kidneys causing the production of angiotensin 2 which causes vaso dilation (opening) of the blood vessels. this reduces vascular resistance and lowers blood pressure helping the heart in maintaining a good circulation.
In human patients, they generally have to stick to a fluid restriction so not to overload the circulating volume and are weighed regularly to determine how much fluid is being retained or lost. Diuretics are used to increase urine output so reducing the circulating volume and reducing the load on the heart.
Hope this helps.
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Do you mean useful or was that done on purpose....?
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: I meant useful (god i'm thick at times)
Thanks for all the info, will pass it onto my Mum xx
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I wasn't sure if you were feeling terribly pessimistic when it was written.... Hope the info helps. :hug:
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The leaflet says for heart disease in dogs and renal insufficiency in cats but I don't see why it would help cats as well - it basically opens up arteries so blood can flow more easily.
I know, strange isnt it.
I wonder if its just be that it hasnt been made legal for cats (like with the matacam a few years ago)
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It is licencesed for cats with CRF - don't know about license for heart failure in cats, but is licensed for heart failure in dogs as that is what is was originally intended for.
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The leaflet says for heart disease in dogs and renal insufficiency in cats but I don't see why it would help cats as well - it basically opens up arteries so blood can flow more easily.
I know, strange isnt it.
I wonder if its just be that it hasnt been made legal for cats (like with the matacam a few years ago)
I enquired why Pep was on Fortekor (I thought it was for CRF) and was told, by several peeps that it was originally formulated for heart probs but they found it also help kidney probs.
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The vet I saw with Max when he had congestive heart failure and kidney failure said that the cardiologists all treat it with fortekor and diuretic combos.
Gillian, on your taurine and co-enzyme Q10 supplements, do you have the cat dose per 3 or 4 kgs cat please? If your vet knows about this, you are so lucky as most of them haven't a clue about supplements.
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The vet I saw with Max when he had congestive heart failure and kidney failure said that the cardiologists all treat it with fortekor and diuretic combos.
Gillian, on your taurine and co-enzyme Q10 supplements, do you have the cat dose per 3 or 4 kgs cat please? If your vet knows about this, you are so lucky as most of them haven't a clue about supplements.
Many GPs don't have a clue about optimum nutrition for humans either!! I think there is just too much to know with medicine, more so for veterinary medicine as each species of animal is different.
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Gillian, on your taurine and co-enzyme Q10 supplements, do you have the cat dose per 3 or 4 kgs cat please? If your vet knows about this, you are so lucky as most of them haven't a clue about supplements.
I havent used the coQ10 or the Cardio Strength, my vet was happy for me to try them though. I've just stuck with the fortekor, diuretic, rutin and taurine combo because it just seems to be keeping him well and stable. Sam weighs about 3.6/3.9 and I give him 500mg of taurine per day. Most of the dosages I found out from the feline heart group and holisticat.
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She has been back to vet today.
She hasnt improved as much as the vet would have liked her too....the roof of her mouth is still very blue too.
Basically the vet has said to allow her to do and eat what she wants (although she isnt eating much ) and carry on with the fortekor.
He coudnt guarantee that she will still be here at xmas, although he says she isnt in any pain at all which is the good thing
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Aw bless! Thinking of your friend and her darling babe Michelle and wishing them all the best! :hug:
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Saw her today -
She has alot of fluid build up but apart from that is ok, just takes things slow. She isn't eating much but then she isn't doing anything.
The vet said she could have a different tablet that would help with the fluid but he said it was a really bitter tasting tablet and the stress it would cause her having it isnt worth it.
His parting words to my mum were "Take her home and enjoy her my dear" :(
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aww, hopefully she is still comfortable though :hug:
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Oh Michelle, don't lose hope. I know you are treasuring every moment with her & just take a day at a time and it could be longer than you think. It's so hard, I know. It's ok if she is slow. I'm sure she's enjoying your love :hug:
Is the other diuretic spironactone (sp?) as that one doesn't deplete potassium. Frusemide made both of mine feel so weak and ill. You could always put it in a gelcap couldn't you so she couldn't taste it?
sending big purrs and hugs :hug: xxx
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Oh Michelle, don't lose hope. I know you are treasuring every moment with her & just take a day at a time and it could be longer than you think. It's so hard, I know. It's ok if she is slow. I'm sure she's enjoying your love :hug:
Is the other diuretic spironactone (sp?) as that one doesn't deplete potassium. Frusemide made both of mine feel so weak and ill. You could always put it in a gelcap couldn't you so she couldn't taste it?
sending big purrs and hugs :hug: xxx
Hi Kate,
This is my Mums cat...not mine.
Yes think the other tablet is Frusemide....
What are these gel caps ?
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Oops sorry! I posted earlier that it was your friends cat! :-[
Hope you mum gets to spend some quality time with her babe! :hug: :hug: :hug:
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sorry, please forgive me Michelle, I am a bit too frazzled to make sense right now, let alone read properly. Please give my very best to your mum. :hug:
gelcaps are little gelatine capsules that you can put whole or cut-up pills into, then you give the gelcap and the cat doesn't taste the pill. I cut up (for eg foul tasting) steroids using a pill cutter, then put them in a size 1, the smallest, and it's been a godsend. Size 4 is pretty big, too big for most cats, but size 1 or 2 are very useful. You can always give more than 1 gelcap too if the pill is big. HTH
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Kate bee googling but can't find them....
Where can we get them from ?
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Phone a few chemists, when you find a cat lover they will help you source some ;D
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Hi again Michelle, I get them from my vet who orders them in. They come in a container of about 100 and aren't very expensive. It took me ages to realise that horrible tasting pill giving could be de-stressed!
I also have a brilliant american pill cutter I got from them as most pills will need cutting to fit into the gelcaps. Hope you find them.
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Thanks Kate -
My vets dont seem to do them :innocent:
Sorry to be a pain, could you tell me the name of the them and who makes them pretty please
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Michelle, is it possible the vet drain more fluid off, surgically? Thats what Sam had done and then he went on frusemide to prevent further fluid build up.
Trouble is, until the fluid is gone they feel too uncomfortable to eat - I know Sam's appetite was poor initially, but once the fluid was gone he started eating well again. :hug:
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Michelle, is it possible the vet drain more fluid off, surgically? Thats what Sam had done and then he went on frusemide to prevent further fluid build up.
Trouble is, until the fluid is gone they feel too uncomfortable to eat - I know Sam's appetite was poor initially, but once the fluid was gone he started eating well again. :hug:
Well this is what I said to my Mum Gillian but the vet doesnt want to do that because he feels she could have a heart attack at any moment....and he doesnt feel stressing her out is worth it (???!!!!!!)
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Well this is what I said to my Mum Gillian but the vet doesnt want to do that because he feels she could have a heart attack at any moment....and he doesnt feel stressing her out is worth it (???!!!!!!)
To be honest I know what your mum's vet means - the difference with Sam is that he was already at the surgery having a scan when my vet phoned to tell me what she'd found (the fluid) and that she would keep him in to drain the fluid off right away. I didnt really have time to think about it (and I didnt know so much about heart failure then - so didnt know the risks really). However, it has given Sam another year so far and a good one too :hug:
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It must be an awful dilemma, the way to try and buy her some extra time could also kill her! :( :hug: :hug:
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Hiya Michelle, the gelcaps I have are made by Meadow Laboratories Ltd, Romford Essex. It's a grey container of 100 empty gelatine capsules and the small ones are size 4. If you draw a blank, let me know and I'll get some for you if you want some. I've got to order more myself soon & could split it 50/50. Strikes permitting, I can post them to you, they are very light.
My vet wouldn't drain either Max or Swampy as admitted it was a highly skilled procedure and he didn't know how and he thought it was too dangerous. It also depletes the body of electrolytes etc as the fluid disappears so fast. However, I've read about it being successfully done on the CRF site and also obviously Gillian's vet knew how to do it too for Sam. Mine were given IV frusemide to drain them initially, then the pills. If it's bad fluid, the vets seem to stay with frusemide (which makes cats and dogs feel unwell and weak as it depletes potassium) rather than the milder spironolactone which doesn't deplete potassium. (American yahoo group are always on about using that one instead of frusemide). Just a thought but has your mum's vet contacted a cardiologist for their opinion?
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Thank You so much Kate,
I will ring them tomorrow and see if I can get some. xx
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A (human) pharmacy can special order gel caps and will have a good pill cutter in stock - I used to work in Superdrug!
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A (human) pharmacy can special order gel caps and will have a good pill cutter in stock - I used to work in Superdrug!
Thank You Fire Fox.....that has probably just made my life even easier xxx
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I googled it and found these http://www.value-healthcare.co.uk/store/product_info.php?cPath=21&products_id=107
My vet charges £4.50 for 100 so looks like I've been ripped off! I read on a CRF site btw that pets prefer the beef gelatin caps to the vegetarian ones. I'd thought the opposite so there you go, what do I know.
You can't put any foul tasting liquid meds in them btw as they melt really fast.
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You are an Angel Kate.......thanks hun :hug:
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I ordered both size 4 and 3 as wasnt sure of the sizes......Spoke to Mums vet and she starts frusemide toorrow
Hopefully she will start to feel more comfortable once the fluid has gone. (i did ask about draining it but the vet said no)
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Hope once the new med kicks in she will feel much relief! :Luv2: :hug:
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Hi again, once she is nice and drained to much less fluid, if she's not feeling too well and is weak, ask about her potassium (Swampy's dropped like a stone on frusemide) and if she can hold steady on the other diuretic spironolactone. UK vets don't use it nearly as much as in the EU and USA, not sure why (it doesn't drain as well initially) as it is so much kinder on their body as doesn't drain potassium away.
If you don't get your gelcaps let me know as I now have 100 of them! size 4.
When you get your size 3s won't you let me know how much bigger they are please as the vets have never seen size 3s, only 4 and 1. 1 is huge , for dogs really. :thanks:
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Hi again, once she is nice and drained to much less fluid, if she's not feeling too well and is weak, ask about her potassium (Swampy's dropped like a stone on frusemide) and if she can hold steady on the other diuretic spironolactone. UK vets don't use it nearly as much as in the EU and USA, not sure why (it doesn't drain as well initially) as it is so much kinder on their body as doesn't drain potassium away.
If you don't get your gelcaps let me know as I now have 100 of them! size 4.
When you get your size 3s won't you let me know how much bigger they are please as the vets have never seen size 3s, only 4 and 1. 1 is huge , for dogs really. :thanks:
Ok.....
she has 1/2 a Fortekor and 1/2 a frusemide
couldn't get the both in the size 4 but could in the size 3....
the size 3 is just alittle bit bigger
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Spoken to my Mum....
Its not looking good, she has stopped eating and wont even drink milk now, just having a little water.
Going to try the recovery food tomorrow but think its probably time to call it a day.....rather than force feeding her.
:'(
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Very sad :hug:
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Sorry Michelle :hug: I suppose you mum's vet wouldnt consider referring to a cardiac specialist? just in case there is something that can be done. My vet offered to do that when Sam was diagnosed, but after she drained the fluid and he stablised and began eating again, I decided that it wasnt really necessary, but I might have done if Sam hadnt improved.
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Sorry Michelle :hug: I suppose you mum's vet wouldnt consider referring to a cardiac specialist? just in case there is something that can be done. My vet offered to do that when Sam was diagnosed, but after she drained the fluid and he stablised and began eating again, I decided that it wasnt really necessary, but I might have done if Sam hadnt improved.
I know it was mentioned but She is 17yrs old and the vet doesnt feel it is worth it
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What does your Mum feel? I do understand if all concerned feel the poor old girl's had enough. :hug:
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What does your Mum feel? I do understand if all concerned feel the poor old girl's had enough. :hug:
My Mum doesn't feel it would be kind putting her through lots of treatment.
Even giving her a pill is stressful, she has to be wraped up in a towel.
Going to try the recovery food to try and get her to eat...but failing that she is going to starve to death which would take some time and wouldnt be nice
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Going to try the recovery food to try and get her to eat...but failing that she is going to starve to death which would take some time and wouldnt be nice
:hug: The one food that got my Sam eating on his own again was Applaws ocean fish - I don't normally buy the fishy ones, but a friend had tried it with her cats and they didnt like it so she brought it over to me for my cats - and I thought I'd just try Sam with it. Was so surprised when he actually started tucking in to the plate by himself - before that I had been hand feeding him pieces of chicken throughout the day because he wouldnt eat normally. Worth a try with your mum's cat.
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Have you tried coley ?
When Maddy was ill she loved it. It a light fish that is easy to digest.
Sainsburys do coley frozen steaks which can be microwaved in 4 minutes.
It's what my vet reccomends when my cats are ill and not wanting to eat and it has worked well in the past.
Just a thought.
Also the Almo nature chicken drumstick wet food is good. Its very moist and easily cuttable into very small chunks and its the only thing Delphi would eat apart from the coley when she was ill.
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just a thought - frusemide can put any number of cats who aren't well right off their food. Of course being full of fluid does that too. I hope the vet isn't stopping thinking about how to make her feel better or comfortable because she is old that's all. Did you manage to ask him if spironolactone was worth a try - I know they don't like it as much in the UK, but in other countries vets use it because it doesn't deplete potassium. Too low potassium makes them feel weak and they give up.
Whatever you and your mum decide, I'm thinking of you all :hug:
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just a thought - frusemide can put any number of cats who aren't well right off their food. Of course being full of fluid does that too. I hope the vet isn't stopping thinking about how to make her feel better or comfortable because she is old that's all. Did you manage to ask him if spironolactone was worth a try - I know they don't like it as much in the UK, but in other countries vets use it because it doesn't deplete potassium. Too low potassium makes them feel weak and they give up.
Whatever you and your mum decide, I'm thinking of you all :hug:
Kate,
I spoke to MY vet about spironolactone and he said it isnt a drug that normally works on its own. He said if he was deaing with mums cat he would use frusemide.
I popped in and saw my mums vet today, We have decided to put her on Preds to try and kick start her eating.....worth giving it ago.
Philip I will get Mum some coley to try....
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Have you tried coley ?
When Maddy was ill she loved it. It a light fish that is easy to digest.
Sainsburys do coley frozen steaks which can be microwaved in 4 minutes.
It's what my vet reccomends when my cats are ill and not wanting to eat and it has worked well in the past.
Just a thought.
Also the Almo nature chicken drumstick wet food is good. Its very moist and easily cuttable into very small chunks and its the only thing Delphi would eat apart from the coley when she was ill.
That is Kylie's favourite - She isn't fooled by "White Fish" - also it gives them a added water intake which can't be bad.
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I popped in and saw my mums vet today, We have decided to put her on Preds to try and kick start her eating.....worth giving it ago.
I didnt think preds was good for cats with congestive heart failure? - I remember reading something on the Feline Heart group on Yahoo about this, something to do with increased salt retention causing a problem. Did you mum join the group? Might be worth putting the question - lots of peeps on there with their experiences to help. :hug:
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I popped in and saw my mums vet today, We have decided to put her on Preds to try and kick start her eating.....worth giving it ago.
I didnt think preds was good for cats with congestive heart failure? - I remember reading something on the Feline Heart group on Yahoo about this, something to do with increased salt retention causing a problem. Did you mum join the group? Might be worth putting the question - lots of peeps on there with their experiences to help. :hug:
I didnt know that Gillian but to be honest its a case of do or die at the moment.
I'll have a look at that group tomorrow, Mum wouldnt have time atm
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Would she tolerate a little assist feeding? Sometimes that kick starts eating. I do feel for you so much - my little Max had congestive heart failure too. He was given some pred too to see if it made him feel better. I don't think it's ideal for a 'heart' patient cat, no, but sometimes as it's a masker, it can make them feel a little bit better and so why not.
I'm not surprised about the spironolactone as I know UK vets are very plugged into using frusemide and if the flooding is bad, I think they have to as it is stronger. But the Italian vet and on my american yahoo CRF group they were all at me to switch to spirowhatsit. I think it depends on how long you have to use it for too.
I hope you can get her comfortable and that she feels better on the pred :hug:
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This is what Mum texted me last night
"New development, on exertion ie going to litter tray she had coughing fit like a patient with heat failure or COPD, happened last 2 occasions.
tonight it floored her completely, was laying with her head on floor so carried her back to sofa"
My dad has gone to collect some recovery food from the vet (the slop in the tins). Mum will try and get her to eat some tonight
but i think the old girl is giving up now :(
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It sounds like her heart Michelle, I'm so sorry and am thinking of you all :hug:
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It sounds like her heart Michelle, I'm so sorry and am thinking of you all :hug:
Thanks Kate...
Its such a shame...apart from her heart she is still aleart, she is pleased to see people and always gives you alittle lick :(
but this not eating, and now the coughing fits, isnt fair on her
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Aw bless her, life can be so cruel at times.... :( :hug: :hug:
For you all! :hug: :hug: :hug:
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This is what was happening with Sam, he was having a coughing fit going down the stairs and he stumbled at the bottom and almost fell right over, its horrible to see. Its a shame your mum's vet won't consider draining the fluid Michelle, because Sam hasnt coughed like that since my vet did that procedure, still I guess Sam's that bit younger (11 when diagnosed), suppose thats a consideration. :hug:
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This is what was happening with Sam, he was having a coughing fit going down the stairs and he stumbled at the bottom and almost fell right over, its horrible to see. Its a shame your mum's vet won't consider draining the fluid Michelle, because Sam hasnt coughed like that since my vet did that procedure, still I guess Sam's that bit younger (11 when diagnosed), suppose thats a consideration. :hug:
Gillian think I am going to ask Mums vet why he won't do it - because at the mment we have nothing to lose as she is going to die if its not done
ok so I know she is 17 but surely its worth at least tying to remove the fluid (as the tablets dont seem to be helping)
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My vet wouldn't do it either, for Max. Gillian I think you are lucky with your vet. It may be an idea to ask around any good vets that have done it as I agree , I know that if I had my time again I would try to find someone who would have done the drain for Max. My vet admitted he'd never done it. In skilful hands, it's not a long or painful a procedure and as you say, what's the alternative.
Michelle, if you have time if you read the CRF website here http://www.felinecrf.org/treatments.htm#fluid_retention as it may explain stuff. She certainly had her cat drained like Gillian's.
I know from Max particularly that there's no way that cats will eat if they are full of fluid. Did you vet give her IV frusemide or just the pills? The IV one causes them to really wee a lot. It's your decision and I do so feel for you :hug:
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This will be Reggies last day :'(
Mum has text us kids and told us if we want to say our goodbyes it must be today :'(
I am going over there this afternoon
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:hug: Sorry Michelle - At least she is sparing him all the pain and confusion :hug:
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:care: Sorry to hear this, Michelle. Hope she has a wonderful last day surrounded by people that love her.
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Just leaving to go to Mums.....Things have got worse and We will be having a home visit this afternoon
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:hug: :hug:
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:hug: to all of you.
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:hug: :hug: :hug: I'm so very sorry
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She's gone .
Wasn't as peaceful as would have liked.....vet couldn't find a vein, had to try both legs in the end...
RIP Sweet Reggie xxx
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Our thoughts are with you and your Mum at this sad time at least she has Issey and Missy to greet her :hug:
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So sorry to hear this Michelle.....Big :hug: to you all! :hug: :hug: :hug:
RIP Sweet Reggie, play hard on the Bridge x
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Spo sorry Michell and love to your Mum :hug: :hug:
RIP Reggie play hard on the Bridge
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Very sorry :hug:
RIP dear Reggie xx
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So sorry, Michelle.
RIP Reggie. :RIP:
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I'm so sorry about the vein and I hope that it wasn't too distressing for any of you, including of course little Reggie.
RIP little one. :hug:
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So sorry Michelle :hug: She's peaceful now :hug:
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So sorry to hear this Michelle. :hug: :hug: to you and your mum. RIP Reggie
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RIP sweetheart xxx
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RIP Reggie. :(
I am so sorry Michelle, :hug: :hug: for you and your mum.x
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R.I.P.
I'm so sorry to read this.
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RIP Reggie - free from pain now at the Bridge. :hug:
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Night night little one xxx
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So sorry Michelle - big :hug: to you and your Mum xxx
RIP Reggie - play hard at the bridge sweetie xxx
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Sorry Michelle i dont know how ive missed this but please pass my sympathies on to your Mum :(
and hugs for everyone :hug: :hug:
RIP Reggie, free from pain now x
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:hug: to you and your family michelle x
RIP Reggie
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:'( :'( I am sooo sorry for your loss at least he is out of his pain now...hugs and love to you and yours......xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx