Purrs In Our Hearts - Cat Forum UK
Cat Health & Behaviour => Health & Behaviour General => Topic started by: JackSpratt on August 11, 2009, 14:55:29 PM
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Jack went for his blood panel today and apparently has an alarmingly large thyroid gland. He's currently lying on his back doing his otter impression behind me not too bothered by the whole thing....
I'd like to know a bit more about the condition so if the vets suspicions are right I'll be a bit more organised about the whole situation.
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Usually Felimazole http://www.noahcompendium.co.uk/Dechra_Veterinary_Products/Felimazole_2_5_mg_Coated_Tablets/-40418.html
or Vidalta http://www.noahcompendium.co.uk/Intervet_Schering-Plough/Vidalta_10_mg_tablets_for_cats_and_Vidalta_15_mg_tablets_for_cats/-47185.html
Here's the FAB info sheet about hypert http://www.fabcats.org/owners/hyperthyroidism/info.html
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Just pricing up - not too costly at all, really is it? Thankfully.... (Obviously, I'd find a way even if it was, but it's a relief to see it isn't!)
Thanks Gillian. Will read the FAB sheet now.
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Pepper is on Vidalta atm but I asked my vet about the two and she says she prefers Felimazole, used to prescribe the former but finds Felimazole (newer drug) is easier to stabilize them on. Although I have to say I suppose it depends on what your vet prefers/suits cat best etc. If Pep's T4 is still raised in 2 weeks he's going onto Felimazole.
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As I said on e-mail JS, it is the blood testing that is the main cost, I priced it up last week with Sam's diagnosis to see if it was worthwhile putting him through the op - it is worth asking for it on prescription, but dont forget to check what your vet charges - mine only charges £5, so it would be worthwhile me asking for a prescription if he needs another months dose, although it is only a few pounds cheaper
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Will take that into account, but I think my vets are likely to base how well Jacks doing on my observations....I worry a lot so they know at the first sign something's wrong I'd be on the phone harassing them!
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Yeah the blood tests are the pricey bit with Hyper-T, to start with its another blood test after about a month, then regularly thereafter to make sure the level of treatment is right, as the tyroid levels can drop too low, and therefore need to stabilise. AFter that its every 3-6 months or so, Max's were more regular at 3 months as we were contstantly testing his kidneys too as the two hand in hand were harder to deal with.
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What did his test results come back as? IT is likely the hyper-t causing his weight to be an issue, so he might be able to gain weight once it is under control.
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His thyroid readings were double what they should be. I'm going to ask for a print out when I con someone into giving me a lift for the medication on Monday. (Or walk, depending on the weather and if I'm up to it.)
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Ah right - did the vet give Felimazole or Vidalta? Hopefully once they have come down, he might be able to gain some weight.
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Neither - he's put Jack on a Carbimazole based tablet that he's had good responses from in other cats. I can't remember the name at the moment, but will get it on Monday.
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Neo mercazole? Vidalta is the same drug as that. Neo mercazole tablets are alot bigger than felimazole or vidalta so if hes hard to pill it may be better trying a different version
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Thats the one my Poppy was on, Neomercazole, she didnt do all that well on it if I remember rightly. Neomerc was the drug that used to be prescribed before Felimazole, and then Vidalta, came on the scene.
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So would you guys recommend trying Felimazole or Vidalta?
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Thats the one my Poppy was on, Neomercazole, she didnt do all that well on it if I remember rightly. Neomerc was the drug that used to be prescribed before Felimazole, and then Vidalta, came on the scene.
As far as I know both Neomercazole and Vidalta are carbimazole, whereas Felimazole is different - I discussed this with my vet when I took Pep in because our Penny and Squeaky (and myself but mine not prescribed by vet though :evillaugh:) were all on carbimazole. Pep is on Vidalta and Rebecca said that now she prefers Felimazole (which is newer) and not carbimazole - because it seems to stabilize them quicker.
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What's Pep been put on then, Janey? I think I'm going to ask to have a word with the vet when I got to collect the tablets - if the tablets are larger than felimazole that puts me off straight away because Jack's really good at picking out tablets from stuff.....
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Hi JS.
The problem I encountered with Tom pretty early on was raised liver enzymes which is not good but quite common I hear and am pretty sure this reflected initial high dose. He was on Vidalta.
I read it is safer to start on low dose of whichever HyperT medication and adjust upwards as required. I think I'm right in saying that Vidalta is only one tab a day whereas Felimazole is two. Sounds attractive where difficult to pill but that's not the most important thing of course. Also pretty sure you can get lower doseage tabs with felimazole 2.5 mg but lowest with Vidalta is 10mg; different drug of course. Have you got a pill cutter? I can always post mine to you that I bought to cut Tom's pills to lower doseage.
I think Vidalta is the newer of the two drugs and will be interested to hear what drug your vet is suggesting. I just wonder if the drug companies are finally taking on the board the suggestion that starting with low doses in the way to go? I joined a forum specifically to find out as much as I could at the time but haven't been on it since Tom passed away last September.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/feline-hyperT/
All cats will be different and Tom's levels were really not high at all. Looking back, HyperT was least of Tom's problems but his symptoms suggested HyperT and couldn't figure out cause of his anaemia which was his real problem :(
The one thing you need above all else of course is a good vet :-:
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:Crazy:
Nothing is straightforward with medication is it? At least there are a number of options if the initial tablets don't suit Jack!
The Proot started on 2.5mg of Felimazole a day - the tablets were tiny.
Unfortunately the Proot suffered similar ailments to Tom, he became anaemic and we couldn't get to the bottom of why :'( I think in his case maybe he'd been hyperT for such a long time (before we 'napped him) that his organs had just worn out.
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It is Neomercazole he's suggesting. (Thanks MM.) And Rosella, nope I don't have a pill cutter I use a knife and hope for the best.... :shy: Hopefully got a lift tomorrow to get the tablets and will talk to my vet then about the different medications. Has to be said, he has cats himself and I always ask if the advice he gives is what he'd do for his own cats - I figure that's the best way to gauge the situation.
Jack's not doing too badly; bit faddy with food but not as bad as he has been. I think the B12 jab helped.
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Interesting that the vet is using something that isn't normally used these days. Please, please be careful with giving it though - you can't cut any hyper-t med and it is designed to be ingested whole or it reduces the efficiency of the meds, so should really be hidden in treats rather than a bowl of food. You also have to be strict with washing your hands, as it can affect humans, the local CP lady developed thyroid problems after crushing tablets for a foster cat.
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What's Pep been put on then, Janey? I think I'm going to ask to have a word with the vet when I got to collect the tablets - if the tablets are larger than felimazole that puts me off straight away because Jack's really good at picking out tablets from stuff.....
The vet he was with before he came to me put him on Vidalta (he is still on this) however his last T4 results at that vets before he came to us were still <200 and it needs to be around 50ish, but the fosterer had been crushing his tablets so that was probably why they weren't helping anyhow, the vet had made a note that if the results were still high in 1mth leaviing the tablet whole - then he should go onto Felimazole.
My vet said that she prefers Felimazole anyway, so if his thyroid isn't improved by then she thinks this will stabilize him much quicker so he can have dental. I'll be taking him next week actually so we'll see, however the tablets are small but he still avoids eating it :sneaky: I have to really hide it in a chunk of meat or spoon it towards his mouth as he's eating.
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Felimazole sounds preferable to me. I don't want Jack struggling with the tablets and I certainly don't need any more health issues of my own! Will check out the tablets and see how big they are and if I feel he'd not be happy will request the felimazole. In all honesty, I think the vet was thinking of finances for me as well which is really nice of him. But if it means struggling to medicate Jack I'd rather pay a bit more.
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I've not come across Neomercazole. I did however use pill cutter as I was so concerned about what I'd read about starting with high doses (I'd been given 10 mg vidalta and, when that caused probs, 5mg felimazole). I see however from attached extract from Noah's Compendium that initial low doses are recommended now and you can get Felimazole in 2.5mg.
http://www.noahcompendium.co.uk/dechra_veterinary_products/felimazole_5_mg_coated_tablets/-37182.html
Vet at the time said OK to split the pills as long as only split one at a time to ensure doseage over 24 hours was correct. However vets I had at the time (esp one bad tempered :censored: that I refuse to see now) did not seem to be exactly on top of latest stuff on HyperT.
Turning to Jack, hope he gets on OK and you get to speak to vet today JS.
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Best of luck today JS :hug:
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What ones did you end up with in the end?
Defurrem treats have been a godsend with lola, shes a butter to med and she really hates it so im stocking up on these as i expect her to need meds for some time until shes stable
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After talking to the vet I'm giving the Neomercazole a go. He said he's more than happy to change it if I feel Jack doesn't really show any signs of improvement. The tablets aren't as big as I thought they'd be so it's worth a try; he also says that 95% of the time he's used these tablets he's had good results.
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Glad you've talked it through and fingers crossed it works well for Jack :hug:
ps. All the tablets are small JS but I think it's the bitter taste which is the problem Pep hasn't taken his the last 2 days :tired: hope that Jack is a good boy ;)
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If Jack will eat treats, try sticking the tablet in a Defurrum treat, it worked with Maxy every time ;)
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Thinking about it, it is the Neomercazole that the CP lady was using and ended up ill, so definitely dont crush them. Fingers crossed he will take them.
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Thinking about it, it is the Neomercazole that the CP lady was using and ended up ill, so definitely dont crush them. Fingers crossed he will take them.
I presume any Carbimazole cannot be crushed, oddly they never told me that when I took them - but they are that small anyway I don't suppose they'd expect us to!
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Thanks guys - he took his first one this morning after he was bribed with the promise of milk. Desley, I won't need to crush them, but will definitely look into the felimazole purely for ease of him taking them. And Clare, thanks for the tip - I get paid tomorrow and am on a mission to make pill taking less stressful for Jack. I'm getting a pill gun and will buy some defurrems too. (Probably the only treat we don't have in the house!)
Janey, it's a nightmare isn't it? I don't want to stress him but really want him to feel better. Did the tablets help yours put weight back on? Sir Jack is being a really picky beggar with food at the moment.....unlike the rest of the horde!
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Janey, it's a nightmare isn't it? I don't want to stress him but really want him to feel better. Did the tablets help yours put weight back on? Sir Jack is being a really picky beggar with food at the moment.....unlike the rest of the horde!
Yup :evillaugh: I had to give Pep 3 lots of breakfast this morning! I've got used to the idea that small portions does it as it can take multiple attempts. Also they tend to start dissolving in the food. He loves any food of any kind which is great but doesn't like milk nor biscuits. I have another 2 other tablets t give him which can be crushed in though thankfully! I've had 3 hyperthyroid cats and neither gained much weight although our Penny wasn't that skinny and she was only borderline, I didn't either with the carbimazole but I felt much different.
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Are the Mikki Pill Gun Tablet Dispensers big enough for these tablets? There's no size thing on them!
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Good luck with him
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Thanks Desley. I agreed we'd try these tablets first and if there was no obvious improvement we'd alter his meds to Felimazole. We'll see how he goes.
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Changed the thread title for more advice! OK, Jack is now on day three of the tablets. He does go out and sit in the garden, he drinks, I'm assuming toileting is normal (Impossible to monitor - he's always toileted outside) but his appetite is still not brilliant.
So a couple of questions:
1) Does Neomercazole increase or stimulate appetite?
2) What foods encourage your cats to eat? (We've tried white fish, tuna, tuna mayo, chicken, ham, AD and blended cat food....he eats a little of the white fish, ham, blended food and ham.)
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With my oldie foster girl, sardines in tom sauce, warmed slightly in the mircowave. She lost a lot of weight through stress of coming to be fostered with me, and this was the thing that got her eating. She is a good weight now.
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agree on the stinky fish in tom sauce if it's allowed (fish often isn't because of the magnesium). Also I'm having a small amount of success with Hi life petit pate which honks.
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They can feel off colour when starting on thyroid meds, the tablets wont increase appetite as many hyper t cats are ravenous so they help reduce the want for food as the levels come down.
Sardines or pilchards in tomato sauce
Hi life petit pate tins
Royal canin biscuits any normal diet variety, when milly was poorly i had a lot of luck with their senior inbetween dry range {link removed to supplier as they have let down rescue cats and Purrs will not support them}
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Hi my old cat developed hyper thyroid problems, he was never offered medication but had the operation instead and went on to live to nearly eighteen :Luv:.
I can totally sympathise with trying to get an elderly cat to eat as I found my last three cats got very fussy in their old age. The obvious ones for mine were warm chicken and fish,, they
also liked hills for a while until they got bored, I can remember it was a total nightmare. The one thing they never tired of though was whiskas cat milk, I'm sure it was the only thing that
kept Nigel going in the end. Good luck hope his appetite improves soon :hug:
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MM, Jack has paradoxical symptoms....which means his appetite is low and his energy levels aren't great. (He jumped on the settee today for the first time in about two weeks and I was so excited I came and told my partner.) He's had about half a pouch of blended food today and a couple of slices of ham.
Unfortunately, none of my cats seem fond of pate meats.... :tired:
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It wont increase appetite even if he isnt showing the 'normal' symptoms. Shame he doesnt like pates as they seem tasty!
Im not 100% on the cascade, did your vet explain how he goes round it? Would be interested to know how they can avoid starting at the top. Im not paying for lolas meds but it amuses me how petplan have to pay so much more for animal preds not human ones when its the same drug :shocked:
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Changed the thread title for more advice! OK, Jack is now on day three of the tablets. He does go out and sit in the garden, he drinks, I'm assuming toileting is normal (Impossible to monitor - he's always toileted outside) but his appetite is still not brilliant.
So a couple of questions:
1) Does Neomercazole increase or stimulate appetite?
2) What foods encourage your cats to eat? (We've tried white fish, tuna, tuna mayo, chicken, ham, AD and blended cat food....he eats a little of the white fish, ham, blended food and ham.)
Neomercazole won't increase appetite, hyperthyroidism iitself causes increased appetite so eventually the extreme hunger will decrease although for me I was/am still hungry alot of the time I suppose it depends on metabolism.
That depends what the cats like although I have to say my 2 just love Classic food, Hi Life Petit Pates (specially turkey and giblets one) and some Hi Life Sachets. Byron also loves chicken and tinned salmon.
Did Jack have a poor appetite when he was diagnosed? because if so that is unusual - usually the appetite is huge but can be the case also although hyper you can feel very tired too - talking from personal experience here.
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Did Jack have a poor appetite when he was diagnosed? because if so that is unusual - usually the appetite is huge but can be the case also although hyper you can feel very tired too - talking from personal experience here.
Yep, although he could just be adjusting after his dental and it's difficult to eat so his lethargy from the hyperthyroidism makes him lose interest quickly. Will pick up some salmon tomorrow and possibly some of this:
http://www.calvetsupply.com/product/Enercal_5oz/Dog_Cat_Performance_Products (http://www.calvetsupply.com/product/Enercal_5oz/Dog_Cat_Performance_Products)
from the vets section at Pets at Home.
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Im not 100% on the cascade, did your vet explain how he goes round it? Would be interested to know how they can avoid starting at the top.
I'm not sure what you mean by that, MM - sorry. :shy:
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Just to let you know am thinking about you and Jack JS :hug: Hope you are managing to get our boy to eat enough
I've never heard of the cascade test either but just googled it and can't say I'm any wiser :-[
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Have to say, he's perkier in himself which might be down to his hyper-t medicine. But he looks so skinny it worries me. (I've posted about what we're managing to get him to eat on Alisons thread.)
He'll eat a bit of blended cat food, but he seems to be forgetting to clean his chin so I have to do it. If I don't his fur clogs together and causes sore patches. Poor old bean!
Rosella, thank you. :hug: It's great to know someone's thinking of him that much as well as us!
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Im glad hes perkier, fingers crossed it continues ;D
The cascade is how vets are to prescribe drugs, if there are licensed versions available for the given species they are meant to use it, neo mercazole isnt licensed for cats afaik, i couldnt find it on noah. Was wondering if there was a loop hole ;)
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Neo mercazole used to be used for cats, according to the CP lady (but that was the one that caused her to develop thyroid issues, although she was crushing it). I was surpised at JS's vet being able to prescribe it, I thought they had to use either Felimazole or Vidalta, will ask my vet when Sam's bloods are re-done. I know with Tiger, she had been given a med from a different vet previously that shouldn't be given due to the cascade (it wasn't licenced for use in cats and there was a med that was), and my vet said I could use it at my own risk, and if it worked, then she could apply for it to be used, but she had to prove she had used alternative treatments first and that they hadn't worked (which they didn't) - I dont think it is given that they will give permission though (it didn't work with her, so wasn't taken any further)
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Jack went to the main food to eat!! First time since his diagnosis I've seen him make his own way up to it. :Luv: Proud of my Old Man.
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that's so great. I know how you feel. Swampy made his way to the kitchen in the night, which he's not done for a week. It makes you so happy doesn't it. Come on Jack, keep it up little mate :hug:
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Way to go Jack and Swampy :Luv: :Luv2:
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:) well done Jack!