Purrs In Our Hearts - Cat Forum UK
Cat Health & Behaviour => Health & Behaviour General => Topic started by: forever_missing_my_boys(Lisa) on March 04, 2007, 21:01:28 PM
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my cat makosi (the jet black one) is meant to be going in to be spayed tommorow ,
i cant go ahead with it until i find out if shes pregnant or not ,my vets attitude was " unless u can find good homes for 6 kittens then i suggest u go ahead get her spayed and if she was pregnant then it would be too late her babies would be terminated :(:(:(:(:(
i cant do that im sorry ....... im going to wait and see if she comes in to season ,if she does then thats fine after shes finished she will be spayed , shes never been out but we took in max ( he was unneutered at the time ) ( neutered now thou ) , we took him in on the 1st feb , 2 days later makosi came in season ,and it only lasted a few days ( usually lasts about ten) some people are telling me max would of been too young to get her pregnant others are telling me different , and meanwhile im just playing a waiting game till i know either way , all i know is theres no way im taking the chance of her being pregnant and having this op and her babies dying as id never ever forgive myself , all i know is : makosi is eating more food then she ever has before ,shes not acting ( manic) anymore by manic i mean swinging off curtians and flying round the room chasing the others etc , and when u lift her up her tummy does feel funny but vet said it might just be pooh ! even though shes poohs twice a day lol ive never owned a pregnant cat before so dont know nothing about what early signs to look for , ill proberly get a load of messages saying im irresponsable for letting a situation like this arise but sometimes things happen fro a reason , all i know is i do my very best for all my pets and if she was pregnant then we would keep the babies as i dont know anyone i trust enough to have one of my babies and wouldnt like to put them in to a rescue centre .
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Sounds like she is pregnant, I agree with you that having the kittens terminated isn't nice but like you have said you couldn't give them away and how do you know you could keep them all.
You have to think about this being realistic and the vets will only terminate up to a certain stage, so better to think about it sooner rather than later. Hard decision.
And your not irresponsible things happen
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Accidents do happen but personally I'd say get her spayed anyway. Kittens are a lot of work and very expensive.
Can you afford to vaccinate 7 or so kittens at £70ish each and to deworm them every few weeks as kittens and Frontline them and spay/neuter them at 5 months at the latest plus all the extra food Makosi will eat whilst pregnant and lactating and all the food the kitens will eat? Will you be able to take a week off of work around her due date so you are on hand for the babies being born. And of course that is assuming everything goes well. Can you afford an emergency c section if she needs one or treatment for mastitis? Out of hours vets fees are also very expensive so if she has a problem giving birth in the middle of the night then you could have a huge bill. Any illness or cost that is related to pregnancy or birth will not be covered by insurance.
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It's very likely that she's pregnant. It's totally your call about whether or not you go for a spay/abort. Personally I would go for it as cas don't have the same emotions as humans so it's not like a human having an abortion, but I can understand why you would feel uncomfortable doing that and you have to do what you feel is right.
If you decide to let her go ahead with her pregnancy I'm sure you'll get lots of advice and tips from people on here who have had pregnant cats. Just try to be realistic about what you will do with the kittens. You say you would want to keep them but could you keep 6 kittens? A cat on here recently had 9 kittens! Could you keep 9?
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Im Hoping shes not pregnant but if she is then yeah it will be very hard work all round , ill be so nervous when its time for her to have them , but as long as they are all healthy and happy i dont mind , i know cats dont think like people and wouldnt have any feelings about a termination but i would and it would kill me inside ! , only god can choose to take away a life !
ill just have to see what happens hopefully shes just late coming on season or something :(
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If she was around an unneutered tom then it's very likely they got jiggy ;) How old was Max at the time?
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he was about 5 n a half months old when i found him the vet guessed his age by looking at his teeth and that .
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A cat on here recently had 9 kittens! Could you keep 9?
Not too long ago we knew of one household who had 2 females i gave birth to 12 kittens and the other 13 all at the same time.
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only god can choose to take away a life !
Unfortunately it is people who choose to take away a life and PTS hundreds of thousands of cats and kittens a year quite simply because there are far too many and homes cannot be found.
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I personally would go for spaying regardless, she is obviously young herself, and young mums can have a lot of probs - how would you manage if she struggled at being a mum and you had to hand rear all the kittens? Then there are the risks to herself, there was a breeder on my other forum who had to have a c-section on her pedigree, the mum died and she had to hand rear the full litter of kittens, we lost 2 mum cats last year. And then there is the expense of extra food and litter - when I last had a litter of kittens with mum, it was at least £20 a week just for food and litter, and then worm and flea treatments on top of that. Plus the fact there are soo many cats needing homes already, and can you really keep every single kitten, bearing in mind you dont know how many she could have?
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Forever
I truly hope that she isnt pregnant.
Like others I agree that there are too many unwanted kittens in the world, HOWEVER to me a life is a life from the moment of conception and I would never abort. I will pray for God to guide you and am sure that if there are kittens lots of us will be able to advise you.
Thinking of you
Teresa x
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Awwww Thank u Teresa
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The following is the advice we five our fosterers:-
It is the policy of the group to terminate any pregnant cats when the vet thinks it is safe to do so? This decision has not been an easy one but in the cats interest. Carrick vets carry out this procedure in a most professional manner and ensure the kittens do not suffer as a result of the termination and we don’t like it however, our reasons are purely in the interest of the cats and the cat population in general. We can usually find homes relatively easy for our kittens however, that could well be at the expense at the life of another somewhere else who could meet an cruel extinction due to the fact that there are too many kittens and the owner cannot find a home for it or more usually them. The horror stories we hear almost daily are beyond belief and heartbreaking. Also the mother cat by having the termination is less at risk from certain ailments and mammary problems including mammary cancer if she does not have the kittens. We are doing the cat and the cat population no favours by letting the pregnancy continue we need to put the cat first in spit of our own feelings and thoughts. Also the pen that is blocked up by the kittens could be used to save another’s cats life, there are so many cats with no one to care for them and if we cannot take them in they suffer.
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I went in the vets this morning and cancelled the spay for today and will see what happens next ,
i spoke to a lady at the portsmouth cpl and she said as makosi is 19mths old (not a kitten herself ) and has never had a littler before then theres no reason for her to have the kittens terminated if she was indeed pregnant , she said it would be a different story if she was ( a ) very young . or ( b ) a cat who has had many litters .
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Ela
So in truth C.P. cannot boast a no kill policy
I have been in rescue for many years and yes I have seen just about every horror sight out,somehow as a one man band I have always found the space,the money and time and more importantly the love,care and committment until each is found an excellent home(and believe me I am very particular).
I spay all of my rescues and encourage people to neuter but at the end of the day an unborn kitten is a life even though you cant see him/her.
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Ela
So in truth C.P. cannot boast a no kill policy
Sorry I am not getting into this to much as we all have very different views and I don't like my view at all but do what is in a cats intererest. I once took a kitten to the vets that was no more than 6 months old and quite small yet she was pregnant. There was no way she could have gone on to have the kittens with safety. We get some cat in who are pregnant and yet have kittens no more than 8 weeks old and are trying to kill them, again it is just not fair in my view.
The views of our branch are not necessarily the views of CP as a whole, I have no idea about other branches.
I have always found the space,the money
Unfortunately some days we are being asked to bring in between 20 and 30 cats and kittens and with the best will in the world it is impossible. Only a few mins ago I have been asked to bring in 2 x 10 year olds and many of the cats we have in care are oldies or have problems and it is not so easy to home so pens are blocked up for longer.
We all do what we feel is in a cat best interest and perhaps based on experiences we have had.
If we were in an ideal situation, had a copious amount of fosterers and pens and more homes than cats and kittens then things may be different, although a cats interest must come first. Also our vets bills are usually over £3000 a month which is an enormous amount for us to raise as there are so few of us. Again if we had dozens of kittens constantly they older cats would not get a look in and I doubt if we would be able to raise the funds to cope. I would hate for the cats that have already been used and abused to be let down by us because we did not have the funds.
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It maybe getting rid of the kittens but think of the cat having to go through motherhood at a young age, i think it takes the kitten out of them.
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she is 19mths old thou ,she is an adult cat .
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Do you have the time and money for lifelong care of all the kittens? She could have a few, and what if 1 had a serious health problem that needed expensive vet treatment?
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Every kitten born and homed means that some other cat, already born and living, somewhere, will not have a home. Most of them will end up being euthanised. Not only is kittening dangerous, stressful and painful for the mum cat (and for your wallet if there's any problem - have you got enough set aside for an emergency caesarian if she needs it?) but it is fundamentally bringing more cats into a world where there are already far, far more living than there are safe, warm homes for them.
When it comes down to it, I prioritise the welfare of the souls already living and needing than of those little ones not even born yet. Which is very sad, and very hard, and a lot of people that I like and respect very much have different views.
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have you got enough set aside for an emergency caesarian if she needs
It is absolutely alarming how many calls we receive for help with this and it is always at night when there is an put if hours charge. Of course we are here for cats that do not have an owner and the donations are made for Cats Protection cats, so in these circumstances we only pay if the cat is signed over to us. The last time this happened the cat was in such a bad state the bill was in excess of £400.
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And why would you want to put your cat through that? There is also a risk you could loose her so better to be kind now and think of her future. Think of what you have got now not what you could have.
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my opinion and experience...cats who are suspected to be in early stages of pregnancy i'd go ahead with the spay..cats who are in mid to late stages of pregnancy i'd leave well along.
I have personally witnessed and aissisted in termination in all and every stage of pregnancy some / often were known about others a complete suprise. There have been a few but thankfully the minority where the late stages i would be boiling with anger and fizzing about. of course the decision to perform the op wasnt mine to make and i did see the "superiors" reasoning for doing so(often the case the owners were on benefits and were to be honest the type you may question or would definately question them being allowed to own 1 cat never mind entrusted to do all nec treatments and rehome a litter of kittens)
..altho at the cost of getting myself in trouble via shouting at my boss lol. i did insist on injecting the foetuses with dolethal the minute the uterus was remvoed from mum and not wait the minute or so it would take for them to die naturally, of course these kittens were still in situ in uterine horns so you couldnt actaully see them...there would be no point in removing them as that would only serve to distress me / other workers more.
I have disected some uterine horns and in the early stages it really is a mass of cells and no distinguishable kitten and on the balancing act of vast amount of unwatned / uncared for cats then i didnt feel bad then.
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Are you a vet nurse Lynn?
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oh and i didnt mean everyone on benefits were like that but some i was on about were a certain type on the worst estates, that had no idea not to "curse and swear" in front of you, werent very clean etc and well...you know the type.
I'd say most of the .. god i never know how to describe social classes without sounding awful..ok most of the "normal" type of everyday folk..which i class myself as, if they were told it was late stages of pregnancy often regardless of advice they would have made the decision to take puss home and return for spaying after the kittens.
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yes cc, was qualified vn and head nurse but havent worked full time since having connor, did locums in the initial year or two but since then havent worked at all, altho i do still communicate with a few vets and of course nurses.
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This subject always cause emotions on both sides of the argument. Personally I don't know what I would do and luckily have never been in the situation.
However now that you have made your decision Forever I wish you the best of luck and I'm sure that the peeps on here will give you lots of support and advice
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Have you made a desicion yet?
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Only just seen this thread.
Ok here goes -
I 100% agree with the view of "a life is a life"
I would NOT abort these babies (if she is pregnant)
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But what if in the early stages Michelle? And she said she couldnt get homes cos she couldnt give them away.
I also believe a life is a life but the mother deserves a life too.
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i think the mother will have a life either way but my concern is the long term care of the kittens..ie for next 14 ish years ?? what if the litter was like floras last one..that was 9 kittens wasnt it !
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TO CC im sorry but u can say the same about women and child birth theres a chance a woman could die during childbirth or just after ( i know this as i nearly lost my mum 12 years ago when she had my sisiter )
I Dont think u should be scare mongering and trying to scare me to death by saying i could lose my cat through her having kittens !
Every day of the week cats have kittens with little or no help from a vet or even the owner and the mother cat and kittens are all fine ! ive heard of many cats having there kittens during the night and the next morning the owners find them and all is well , im sorry but at the end of the day all i can do is make sure makosi gets the best medical attention and make sure that myself and my partner are there for her if and when the time comes and obviously if there was the slightest problem then i would phone the vet straight away , im praying she isnt pregnant ! but if she is then im doing what i think is right and terminating little precious lives isnt right imo .
To everyone else who has offered help and advice then im most greatful thank u .
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i think fair dues to you forever, you have weighed up the pros and cons obviously and hopefully aware of the hefty bills should any problems arise (thankfully in cats these are less often but can non the less happen)
Should worst come to worst have you thought about how you will rehome these kittens (sorry i dont know where you are from)
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im from portsmouth in hampshire
my mum and sister would want to have one and ill b able to visit them regually as im always at my mums and sisters house lol ( they both have a cat already and look after them very well)
the others will stay with us ( unless an excellent home could b found ) which i dont know any one that i could trust well enough apart from my familey , i already buy 48 tins of cat meat a week for my lot so one or two more mouths to feed wont make a difference lol
as long as the kittens are happy healthy and protected from any diseases etc and protected from any dangers then ill be happy .
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oh does it make any difference if the mother cat is small does it mean they have less kittens then a bigger cat or dont it go by that ?
is it true all kittens are born with fleas and worms??????????????
even if the mother is being treated every month with stronghold ?
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Forever, I wasnt trying to scare you, I just thought that would be the best option as you said you couldnt give them away. Im pregnant so if I thought termination was ok, I wouldnt be pregnant cos it wasnt planned. But if you got homes for them with family thats the best option.
How many cats u got?
The kittens can get fleas if the mother passes them on but I dont think they are born with them.
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i have 7 cats
and one german shepherd dog
i cant have children myself so they are my babies they get treated like id treat my own son or daughter if i had one .
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i do find some things here worrying
no the kittens will not be born with fleas but could get them within minutes of being born if the mother had, if shes under treatent then that should be ok. the kittens at a certain age should be treated with appropriate wormer.
is strong hold safe to use on a pregnant and or lactating queen ??? if not then thats atleast 2 -3 months of no treatment !!
size of cat doesnt always follow as regards to size or amount of kittens.
the cost of feeding your cats would be least of your worries compared to vets bills/insurance etc etc
are you jsut presuming your family would take one each or has serious thought and consideration gone into it and planning put into action about introducing kittens if they already have cats etc...sorry not havin a go just all things that need to be thought about. also if you find good homes thats great but what if the cat were to have say 6 kittens, your family are going to take two..could you really keep 4 ??
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We could argue all day about this because we all have different viewpoints (about human abortion too). I do tend to agree with the argument that although these lives might be saved if it means another cat loses it's life as a consequence then lives aren't really being saved. But it is an emotive issue and I respect you, forever, for having made a decision and wanting to stick by it. If you feel it wouldn't be right to go ahead with a spay/abort then go with your instincts.
The only advice I can give you (never having had kittens) is to be prepared for every eventuality. Yes many cats give birth without complications every day but many end up having emergency cesarians too. Make sure you are prepared for that possiblity and can afford it. I also think it would be worth making enquiries about rehoming the kittens in case your current plans dont work out. If it's a large litter you may end up with more than 1 or 2 to keep. Grown up kittens dont always get on with their mum either or they may not get on with your current cats so your plan to keep most of them may not work out. Best to be prepared with alternatives.
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oh does it make any difference if the mother cat is small does it mean they have less kittens then a bigger cat or dont it go by that ?
is it true all kittens are born with fleas and worms??????????????
even if the mother is being treated every month with stronghold ?
No... sometimes a very small, thin cat can have 8 or 9 kittens or a lovely big strong one will just have one or two. That's why there's such a risk involved - moreso if the kittens dad is a big lad.
Fleas and worms have to come from somewhere... so if mum hasn't got them, kittens won't either.
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CC - No Still dont agree with abortion even in early stages .
Ela - Do CP abort even in later stages of pregnancy ? What is the cut off ?
Forever - You do what you think is right. If you can afford to keep the kittens then go for it! My Issey had 4 kittens and i kept all 4. Issey has an amazing bond with them and they deff know that she is Mum and she knows they are her babies.
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Furbaby : awwwwwwww that sounds great that all the babies stayed with mum
how many cats do u have alltogether ? have u got the dad cat ?or was he a randy tom around ur neighbour hood ?
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Lynn : My mum and sister have both thought about it and have said they will def have one kitten each if she is pregnant !
as for the flea treatment i havent checked yet but will do before they are all due to be treated again
as for the vet bills : i see what u r saying about the cost
we havent got much moeny compared to other people but we dont smoke or drink or have children all our money goes on our animals and our food and bills etc
if an emergency was to happen and i needed to apy a very large sum in vets bills then obviously id do it even if i had to sell something or pawn something , all my animals go to the vet even for the slightest thing ( like there was some dry white flakes in flossys fur a few months back and i got her to vet same day and all it was ,was a bit of dry skin )
obviously keeping 4 kittens isnt an ideal situation with me already having 7 cats and a german shepherd but im not prepared to abort
or sale them , or just give them to anyone ,
other then my mum and sister if i found someone who was vetted by the rspca or cpl
and they were a genuine animal lover and had knowledge of cats and kittens and was prepared to raise the kitten as an indoor cat then id consider rehoming ,if not id keep them .
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Ela - Do CP abort even in later stages of pregnancy ? What is the cut off ?
No not normally in later stages of pregnancy, obviously we are guided by our vet and if a vet thought the mother cat was in danger.
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Forever,
I have 10 cats !!
Wouldn't be without any of them - they are my world.
But let me tell I am not going to paint a wonderful picture about having kittens .
I am actually ashamed to say that Issey had kittens, i dont agree with breeding but it wasn't planned but there is alot of history.
Issey was found as a ferel kitten and hand reared - for the first 6mths she was very ill with Cat Flu, Calicivirus, and then she had a tumour in her throat.
She underwent 2 major Ops to remove this tumour and almost died under anisetic (went blue for 40mins).
My vet adviced me to delay spaying her because of the 2 Ops she'd had.
Well, she came into season and one morning my Hubby let her out !!!!! (MEN!!)
Hubby heard a noise, looked out of window and an unknown Ginger Male cat had her pinned to the floor
Vet advised abort kittens but i could not do this
Anyway -
4 healthy kittens were born but 2wks later Issey had Mastitus.
So i had to bottle feed the kittens and inject Issey daily with antibiotics. Believe me having kittens is HARD work
Then,
One morning I managed to catch the Father Cat as he was limping, I turned to the CP for help (BIG MISTAKE) They told me to take him to a local vets and then It turned out the Father of the kittens was FIV positive. The CP authorised for him to be PTS - i asked them to sign him over to me but they would not do this so i went to the Vets to be with him as he was Murdered and told him how sorry i was that i had let him down!
Then of course i was left with the fact that Issey had mated with a FIV positive cat !! That was the most horrible and scary feeling. I had to have her and all 4 kittens tested but thank the Lord they were all Negative.
So as you can see its not all plane sailing.
My 10 cats cost be a fortune and i am sure my Hubby would die of shock if he knew just how much !!!!!
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That's why there's such a risk involved - moreso if the kittens dad is a big lad.
Sadly we also have over the years many cats who have had kittens stuck while trying giving birth, unfortunately some of the have been giving birth outside and have been under hedges etc and there has been huge problems as the kitten has apparently been stuck for ages and the cats plight not noticed.
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Furbaby : omg it sounds like u had a really rough time with it all then
its a shame about the father cat , i thought the cpl had a special haven for fiv positive cats ?
how old r ur kittens now then ?
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i thought the cpl had a special haven for fiv positive cats
Some branches and shelters do, however others just do not have the facilities, It is very sad. We wouselves have taken cats from Wigan and Sheffield and also have all those tested FIV+ from our local RSPCA.Unfortunately there so so many cats testing FIV+
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whats the youngest one u have had test positive Elaine ?
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No Still dont agree with abortion even in early stages .
I do know what you say, however rescues just cannot deal with the enormity of it all, just before Christmas there were many CP branches who had between 50 and 80 kittens. I think Rebeccas post Every kitten born and homed means that some other cat, already born and living, somewhere, will not have a home. Most of them will end up being euthanised. Not only is kittening dangerous, stressful and painful for the mum cat (and for your wallet if there's any problem - have you got enough set aside for an emergency caesarian if she needs it?) but it is fundamentally bringing more cats into a world where there are already far, far more living than there are safe, warm homes for them.
says it all really
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oops
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whats the youngest one u have had test positive Elaine ?
A kitten at 20 weeks, we don't have kittens tested until that age as before then there is more chance of a false neg or a false + due to mums antibodies.
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awwwwww thats sad
do fiv cats live as long as healthy cats
can it only b passed on through mating and biting ?
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do fiv cats live as long as healthy cats
TAKEN FROM AN INTERNET SITE:- Dr Sue Duthie at the University Glasgow, has stated that recent research has shown that cats infected with FIV can live just as long as uninfected cats .A long-term FIV Monitoring Project was also carried out at Glasgow Veterinary School over a number of years and the results indicated that a higher percentage of FIV negative cats died than FIV positive cats! A fourteen year study by Maureen Hutchison B.Sc, BVMS, MRCVS found that FIV-positive cats are more likely to die by being killed in road accidents or to be alive and well into their twilight years than they are to die from any FIV related condition. Also, a recent survey by Dr Diane D. Addie (Lecturer in Veterinary Virology, University of Glasgow) where 26 cats were monitored for ten years, found that FIV infection did not affect the cats’ life expectancy.
can it only b passed on through mating and biting ?
That is the most likely cause
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i suspect my soots had fiv for a lot of years.
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i suspect my soots had fiv for a lot of years.
I am sure if everyone had ther cats tested there would be a few shocks, as some of the cats look so well.
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Forever -
My "kittens" are just over 2yrs old now but i gotta tell ya that Issey still washing them and some of them still suckle from her (no milk of course but more of a comfort thing).
I couldnt have taken them away from her when they were 8wks old - she loves them so much.
Ela - I know you save FIV+ cats but some branches still PTS as routine (same with old cats believe it or not)
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Furbaby : awwwwwwww
is that issey in the pic ?
its terrible to think that anyone anywhere would pts a cat with fiv or an older cat
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No Forever, that is Freddy J my youngest.
My Issey is a Tabby moggie.
She is the love of my life (i know you shouldnt have favs)
I think i am right in saying that your vet should be able to feel if she is pregnant at 2wks - kittens will feel like little beads.
For what its worth i think you are doing the best thing by not aborting - but thats just my opinion
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I think i am right in saying that your vet should be able to feel if she is pregnant at 2wks - kittens will feel like little beads
In all honesty I think they need to be more gone than that for the vet to know.
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Ela - I know you save FIV+ cats but some branches still PTS as routine (same with old cats believe it or not)
I cannot speak for other branches,, although many just do not have the capacity, it is a sad fact of life and unfortunately we cannot save everything. If everyone got their cats neutered and spayed and stopped letting them breed then perhaps we could help more. Our time could then be used in rescuing cats and finding homes for them rather that endless mums and babies blocking up our pens and everyone offering homes to the kittens.
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I have already said my opinion on this - while I can see where the people are coming from when they say a life is a life, I still think that early pregnancies should be aborted - we had a pregnant mum come in last year, lovely condition, gave birth with no probs - then became ill, nothing the vet prescribed worked and numerous tests couldn't show anything he could sort out, so mum and babies had to be euthanased when the kits were 5 weeks old. We also lost a full litter of 5 kittens who had come in mumless, but we knew it was her third litter on the go, they were so sickly and tiny. So yes, the majority of pregnancies will go well, but sadly not all do.
I would like to say a very big thank you to everyone who has posted on this thread though, I deliberately came on to check this tonight, and I am very pleased that we have all been nice, friendly and polite, I did expect this to turn nasty. I am very pleased that we can have discussions on very emotional subjects without being nasty.
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you suprise me desley, i didnt think that would be your opinion but if we;re talkin early preg then we're in total agreement.
small marbles may be felt at 2 wks but to be honest this could be faeces also and depending on build/bulk of cat ... ie skinny cat easier to feel than tubbier cat. if you feel something the size of even 2-4 x the size of marbles to be honest theres no distinuishable kittens there, just cells.
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I totally agree with Desley that it's a tribute to everyone's open-mindedness and maturity that we can discuss emotive issues without resorting to personal attacks. And nothing could be more emotive than being pro- or anti-abortion. It is not something about which anyone can sit on the fence, and rightly so.
For what it's worth, on this issue I disagree with some people on here whom I most respect and admire: I campaigned for abortion to be available to humans many years ago and it follows I feel the same way when it comes to cats.
:Luv:
xC
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I second that Desley cos I have just plowed through the whole thread that has appeared since i saw original post last night.
Thank you Purrs people for arguing your views with tolerance and politeness and great also that the mods have been watching just incase ;D ;D
I hope that the kittens are born without any problems and that mother and kittens are all spayed at the earliest opportunity.
My only other thought is insurance, insurance , insurance LOL, I swear by it and it has paid bills that I could never have afforded over the years ;D
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i too am glad that we can "happily" disagree. if we were all the same and agree'd it would make for a pretty boring place i reckon (the world i mean not purrs LOL)
christine i admire you for admitting to that, not many would and its a subject i have for and against views on in both sides of the fence, its certainly not a clear cut subject thats for sure. Happily personally ive not had personal experience but ive had the morning after pill several times over the years (all because of slip ups with dh i hasten to add LOL) and some would critasise me even for that.
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christine i admire you for admitting to that, not many would
Whatever our convictions, it seems to me it is imperative that we speak up for them, even if everyone else disagrees. The thing is to be respectful of others' deeply held principles at the same time.
:Luv:
xC
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well said christine :Luv:
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Ditto to the comments below.
I have been really pleased with the way we have all chatted about how we feel about this situation.
We all have differnet views and beliefs.
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Lynn - I actually used to be completely anti-abortion, but I have even changed my minds on humans now - working for the DSS shows you a completely different view of people who truly should be 'spayed' at an early age, and I now think it depends on what kind of life the 'offspring' can have. With regards to cats, the sheer amount of cats that everyone on here (and rescues I know that dont come on here) have to help, plus the ones we can't help due to lack of space changed my views - I do think it is better to end a life before they have a chance than to bring yet more kittens into the world that will need homes, and some will prevent an adult from finding a home.
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anti-abortion, but I have even changed my minds on humans now
I still am when people use it as a form of contreception, I once heard a girl under 18 brag that she had 3. Although what kind of mother she herself would make is another question. Other than that I fully understand there are many valid reasons why an abortion is necessary.
However, as far as pets are concerned, I feel I cannot use the same principles, as termination is in the cats interest (not just the pregnant cat but the cat world as a whole) it is like if I was a vegetarian I would still feed my cat meat or the by products of meat and not push my principles on my cat.
Also humans in most cases can say no so they do not get pregnant or take precautions, a female cat has no choice.
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I actually used to be completely anti-abortion, but I have even changed my minds on humans now -
I am totally the other way i'm afraid.
I do not agree with abortion - fullstop.
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Ditto desley but i wont even go into my feelings on certain humans breeding (then i would start a war LOL)
ditto ela aswell...i feel that the types such as that girl you speak of should be one of the ones sterilised and not allowed to breed at all !! also...no there is no excuse to use abortions like that ..isnt that what the morning after pill is for if she really must put it around and not use protection.
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I do not agree with abortion - fullstop.
As I mentioned before, I respect your views, even if I disagree with them, so please do take the following question in that spirit. Where do you stand on abortion following rape (say in war) or if the mother's life itself is threatened?
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I do not agree with abortion - fullstop.
That is your right and I respect that.
I don't like it and I am sure nor does anyone else but we put our feelings to one side in the interest of the cat and the cat world.
As previously posted many people don't eat meat but do give it to their cat because they know it is possibly the right thing to do. I don't eat lamb, rabbit or any so called game but if it is in cat food then my cats have it.
Obviously we all have our views and I personally will stick to mine as I know it benefits the cats. I would be far happier going down the no termination route but must put the cats interest first as that to me is far more important than my own feelings and beliefs.
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A Life is a Life wheather a lamb or man
LIFE IS PRECIOUS
Only god has the right to take a life !
abortion is so wrong !
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Only god has the right to take a life !
I agree life is very precious, I just spare a thought to all those tens of thousands of cats and kittens that are PTS by man because there are too many and the thousands that are abused every year because there are too many and too easily come by.
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Yes i agree with you ,
its awful to think of the ones pts simply because they arent wanted or are old
its also terrible that just anyone can go and buy a kitten or puppy
and its true if they werent so available maybe theyd be more appreciated .
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A Life is a Life wheather a lamb or man
LIFE IS PRECIOUS
Only god has the right to take a life !
abortion is so wrong !
I respect your opinion but I do disagree with it ;D To me there's a difference between a life and a potential life. A potential life that can only come to fruition if a host is prepared to nurture it is not the same as an individual that can live independently, imo. In those circumstances I feel the host is perfectly entitled to decide not to provide nutrients etc to bring it to life, and we are entitled to make that decision on behalf of a cat when it's in the cat's best interests.
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A 12wk old unborn baby has fingers and toes and a heart beat
Tell me thats not a life
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Michelle, I absolutely respect your views, even if I disagree with them, so please do take the following question in that spirit. Where do you stand on abortion following rape (say in war) or if the mother's life itself will be lost or is threatened?
(This is from lower down but I am sincerely interested in your and others' views on it so I'm bumping it.)
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Michelle, there is a slight difference between human and cats in that we can choose to take pills, use things etc, cats can't - and quite a few of the breeders I know want to give up with the sounds theirs make when they are mating, so not sure how pleasant an experience it is for the female.
Forever - I do disagree that only god can take a life, as I also strongly believe in euthanasia (And also wish that were legal in humans), and humans have to make decisions on behalf of cats - another mum cat we had in at the same time as the poorly one gave up feeding her kits at 4 weeks old, if they hadn't been brought into us, they would have all died, and prob future litters too - all through one persons actions, not God. And as someone who only adopts oldies, yes it is incredibly sad to see so many needing a new home cos they are no longer wanted - and a few come via the vet cos they refuse to do it to a healthy cat and they know I will take oldies on.
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I really don't want to get involved in a debate on abortion (very strongly pro-choice, a woman's right to decide on what happens to her own body etc.) but I'd like to go back on something that has been said earlier:
am I right in thinking that far from a small cat being more likely to have a small litter, isn't it actually much more dangerous for a small cat to be pregnant, as it can lead to babies being stuck as has been mentionned + the mum's body not being able to cope?
Déborah xxx
(also i don't think it's funny to talk about some people (i.e. poor people) needing to be 'spayed'. It does happen, to mentally ill people in particular and ethnic minorities in the US, and it's a scandal - ok, getting off my soap box now :shy:)
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A 12wk old unborn baby has fingers and toes and a heart beat
Tell me thats not a life
With modern medicine it's very difficult to say at what age a baby can survive, but not at 12 weeks. That's the point I'm making. Without the mother being prepared to sustain it until it's bigger it can't survive outside of the body at that age. So I wouldn't personally consider it an independent being.
Having answered that, I think we should try to keep this thread about cats as it is getting a bit off topic (and this isn't really the place for a general discussion about abortion) and is in danger of getting a bit heated. Abortion is an emotive subject and something about which most people feel quite strongly one way or another. It's also something about which it's hard to have a proper discussion as most of us are so entrenched in our views that we aren't prepared to seriously consider another viewpoint so all that will happen is everyone will state their pov repeatedly in an attempt to make themselves heard.
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(At the moment of conception is when a life begins )
when my sister was pregnant the doctor picked up a heartbeat at 8 weeks gone ,
they dont usually listen for heart beats at that stage but my sister was getting pains and she was distraught thinking something bad had happened so to ease her mind the dr made her listen to the heart beat .
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This is and always will be an emotive subject. I don't agree with aborting, never have done and never will do BUT I deal mainly with the feral cats and sometimes you have to put your feelings aside and think 100% of the cats involved. However, if I know a cat is pregnant and they are showing visible signs, I honestly can't go through with it. I, like others couldn't live with that on my conscience. Sometimes I've trapped ferals that have recently had youngsters......say 10 weeks prior, they have gone in to be spayed and sadly they have been pregnant again. If my vet discovers they are pregnant whilst under, they will continue with the spay.......it's unfair for a feral to be trapped, be released or kept to have the babies and then trapped again and it's unfair on a cat to go through another pregnancy so soon when they need all the energy they've got to look after their initial brood. One day I'd trapped a female and I suspected she may have been pregnant, I also had another feral in the car due to go to the vets. I was in tears outside as my vet was trying to convince me to let him spay her, in the end he said he would check her, if she was in the later stages he would leave her. I agreed to this but when he rang and told me she wasn't pregnant, I then thought if she was, he wouldn't have told me anyway and I knew it was in the best interests of the cat. In all, I think in the early stages, I can handle abortion.......just about, but if they are visible I can't. When I first started dealing with the ferals, if I suspected they were pregnant I couldn't take them to be spayed, but over time and knowing all the heartache that a lot of these cats go through, I can understand why sometimes it's for the best and we also have to remember, these babes don't get a choice. I pray she isn't as there are far too many kitties in this world without homes but if she is I wish you the best of luck for them.
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I really didnt want to enter the discussion on this thread but the recent posts are interesting after a discussion at my art class today..........it was part of a bigger conversation which had relevance to studying eetc.
However one of the ladies had been a teacher and currently still helps out in one of the bigger schools locally and happened to remark that a lot of learning and mobilty diffulculties now being seen are often linked to the large number or premature births because in some cases the brain has not fully grown or is underdeveloped so this leads to reading, co-ordination etc problems that are first noticed at some point in school.
I was quering why there are so many problems now when classes are so small compared to when I was at school. Also I was told that some of the coordination issues are because the children growing up are not active like we ised to be and just get put infron of the TV or video or computer and told to just stay there. Consequently some are so bad they cannot even sit on a chair without falling off.
The point I am coming to is that although medicine is getting better and better so younger babies can survive, what problems is that actually causing to those very premature babies and their future lives.
Should there be, maybe there already is, a cut off point where although life is actually viable, decision not to continue must be taken?
This whole subject is so massive in terms of how one thing links to another and our lack of knowledge about so much, the debate will never stop.
Have to say I am also strongly Pro-choice although I do not think that because tests show that there is some abnormality in a baby and depending what it is, pregnancies should not automatically be terminated.
Have to say also and possibly contraversally that I believe its the womans right to choose and not the mans, if both agree then thats great but the womans choice should be the paramount one. I am afraid that the double standard still exists in that it is too easy for the male to just walk out and take no responsibilty. Yes I know sometimes it happens the other way round but that is so far in the minority, the womans choice is the important one.
Seeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee another can of worms ;D
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I think we should try to keep this thread about cats as it is getting a bit off topic (and this isn't really the place for a general discussion about abortion) and is in danger of getting a bit heated.
Agreed
I think we will just go round and round in circles so i am bailing out of this topic.
Michelle xxx
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How is she doing Forever? ARe you going to take her back to the vets -it is 5 weeks since you said that she was last in heat, so the vet might be able to tell better now. Did you actually see him do anythign to her? I would be getting concerned now just in case there is a different reason for her not coming into season - I dont know if pyo stops them coming into heat, but cats have had to be spayed younger than Makosi due to it. Do you mind me asking how come she wasn't spayed at 6 months?
There is an increased risk she will get mammary cancer later in life because she has had so many heats - please, please check her mammary glands once a month - it is as simple as running your hands over her nipples, but you truly could save her life by doing it, mammary cancer is very aggressive and does spread, so you would need to get her to the vet at the slightest change in things - the 'average' age for developing it is 10.
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but cats have had to be spayed younger than Makosi due to it
How right you are, I remember a vet spaying a 6 month old cat that looked purrfectly well, When the owner collected the cat that night she was told that had the kitten not gone into be spayed then it would most certainly died very soon as there was evidence of pyo. Sadly so many people do not realise the implications of spaying and neutering, Also If someone told me that even one season increases the chance of my cat getting mammary cancer i would make an appointment at the lets immediately. Sadly we have over the years taken in so many cats with mammary tumors. One such cat died only last week, she had some of the tumors removed and had a little time of quality life. but so unavoidable had the owner had her spayed before a season. When will people ever learn they are playing with their cats lives.
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I have never heard of it that young in cats, although I have heard breeders having to spay at 12-14 months because of it. The stats for mammary cancer are 200 times less likely if spayed before the first heat, this benefit reduces with each heat until the cat is 2.5yo when the benefit stops. After losing a cat to this terrible disease, I vowed that I would inform as many people as I could, as her life was cut short purely because of it.
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I have never heard of it that young in cats,
There you go that is your todays useful information.
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Just thought I would add that so many dogs die from pyo also, although in the case of a dog vets do not like to spay until a time after the first heat.
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Unfortunately, most vets won't spay until the cat is 6 months old. Mia got her first heat when she was 4 1/2 months old, and I was desperate for the vet to spay her, as I knew about mammary tumours and pyo, but they refused point blank >:( Because her cycles are so short, she's now had 4 heats, 3 of which could have been avoided had the vet accepted to spay her earlier.
Déborah xx
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That is actually quite sad Deborah - I am lucky that both mine and the rescues vet will neuter at 5 months, and the local feral rescue neuters everything at 8 weeks old - they have to travel further to that vet though. My vet said that CP had sent a leaflet about neutering at 4 months old, so hopefully it will become more commonplace, my vet has seen farm cats pregnant at 4 months old.
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Unfortunately, most vets won't spay until the cat is 6 months old.
I think nowadays more and more vets will spay younger kittens and certainly they should if a kitten has a season. I would have found another vet.
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Hiya everyone
we are taking makosi to the vets tommorow to ask the vet to examine her again
surely by now the vet would know if she was pregnant or not ,
if she isnt then i would like to know why she hasnt come in season,
im not waiting any longer just incase there is a medical reason why she hasnt come in season
( to say im worried to death about it all is an under statement)
this pyo u r talking about ,would that stop a cat from coming on season then?????
as ive mentioned in other posts she is acting different to how she was before we got max 5weeks ago ,
now to answer the questions ive been asked :
no i havent seen them do it
but he is even now (after his neuter) trying to jump on her and like bite her neck n that
makosi doesnt want it now and will hiss at him so each time he tries anything i seperate them as i aint having makosi getting stressed in anyway ,
now to answer the question "why i hadnt got her spayed at 6mths ?"
to be perfectly honest with u it was just a case of always saying we will def get her done next month and with her being and indoor cat and having no unnetured toms at the time i thought it would b ok ,i didnt realise it could increase there risks of getting tumours n that in a later life .
i know ive been irresponsible i hear it every day from my oh :'(
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i am glad you are taking her tomorrow, she was on my mind last night. Hopefully teh vet can let you know either way. If she isn't, please have her done this week. I dont know if pyo can stop them coming into season, will see if I can find out for you. Males can still produce sperm after their neuter - some articles say up to 6 weeks, but the smell goes after 2, so dont really know how long it is. The other prob you have is that although you can separate them while you are around, what is happening while you are asleep etc? There is nothing you can do as to leaving her unneutered for so long except following my advice to check her breasts monthly, it is minutes of a job and could save her life, most mammary gland tumours are only picked up when it is quite advanced, you have the chance to not let her be one of them, please take it.
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i would like to know why she hasnt come in season,
Not all cats come into season every four weeks some only come into season a very few times a year. (Thank goodness)
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but she always come in season every few weeks
if she aint pregnant then yes she will be spayed this week .
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know ive been irresponsible i hear it every day from my oh
At least you have been honest, and hopefully you will now advise everyone you know with a cat about the dangers of not having them neutered and spayed at an early age. I trust that if they vet cannot feel anything tomorrow you will book Makosi in for a spay and not continue to wait and see. What I have liked about you is that although most of the posters have disagreed with you in your decision not to have Makosi spayed a couple of weeks ago, you stayed with us and did not throw all your toys out of the pram.
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Thanks Ela yea i dont mind admitting im wrong when i am wrong ,and yes if the vet still cant feel anything then she will defo be spayed this week , if she was pregnant then a vet would defo b able to feel them at this stage dont u agree ?
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Yes he would be able to feel them, how far along do you think she is?
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about 4weeks
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It was actually 5 weeks on Fri from the date you said she was last in season.
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do u take it from when they was last in season then ??????????????
weve had max 5weeks and 3days and makosi was in season within the first 2/3 days of him coming here but it only last a few days ,usually lasts 7/10 days
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I would say she is then judging by that, but I'm not a vet so what do I know. :-:
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dont u agree ?
Yes
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Thanks Ela yea i dont mind admitting im wrong when i am wrong
That a line from Dirty Dancing
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do u take it from when they was last in season then ??????????????
That is when she would have got pregnant.
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:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: i love dirty dancing
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oh god im just so thick at times
well at least tommorow i should get my answer either way coz its all driving me crazy at the moment .
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i love dirty dancing
Oh! me too, and that is another line in the film. Its sad I know almost all the words.
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lol yea same ere i know most of the words
its the same with grease 1 and grease 2 ive watched it so much i know what they r going to say next :rofl:
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Hi forever I haven't posted on here for a while as this subject always brings out emotions from both sides of the coin.
I shall be thinking of you tomorrow and I'm sure if Makosi (great name btw) is pregnant lots of people on here will give you lots of advice and support :)
I was not aware of all the complications that not spaying/netuering a cat could cause. CC and now Purrs has been a godsend for me.
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thank u ellie .
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You should take the date from when she was last in season, as in human pregnancy. Fingers crossed for tomorrow.
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I have still got to finish reading recent posts but have just read gills interesting one.
Re the premature babies, I agree that some the the terrible states these humans have to linger in until death comes is appauling but the biggest problem i reckon is if there are signs of life then obviously you must try and help and when its a "normal" but prem baby you have no idea really of what will lie ahead IE you cannot catagorically say they WILL have severe problems.
Take my son..he wasnt awfully premature only just over 4 wks which is nothing but my placenta hadnt worked and couldnt pass nutrition over to him from my blood supply so there for he was severely malnourished as a foetus and yes this has affected him to varying degrees, I should think my self lucky as it could be alot worse.
I agree where babies seem desparetely ill and doctors all agree 100% that there will be severe disablment/handicapped and give the parents the option of carrying on , altho i know how hard that would be having had a baby wired up and in an incubator I would not condem my child to a life like that.
also if i had been told i was going to have a severly handicapped child at my first scan i would not have carried on with the pregnancy but that would not have been a decision i could make lightly.
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good luck for tomorrow forever, i hope she isnt but atleast if you find out she is you can get your self prepared.
Ela i read in a post back abit where you said in the case of a princess spay vet recommend doing it after the first season, the opinion shifted on that a few years back and there was new studies to suggest that spaying before the first season reduced the chance of mammary cancer to pratically negligable numbers..However speaking from experience, spaying a puppy just feels wrong in every way (esp in the larger breeds where they still very much look like a baby at 5 months etc). I'd imagine many vets are still going on the old information re the first season and personally taking into consideration the hugely reduced chances of mam cancer that is when i'd do it too if i had a female dog (which i'll never have so not a big issue for me LOL)
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Ela i read in a post back abit where you said in the case of a princess spay vet recommend doing it after the first season, the opinion shifted on that a few years back and there was new studies to suggest that spaying before the first season
To be honest I don't know much about dogs and what I do know can be written on the back of a postage stamp. (Although as you will appreciate I am well up on Spenic masses). However, I know the advice about spaying after the first season is still being given by many vets ,in fact I know someone was told that only last week. Ans some dog rescues I know advise in the cases where bitches are homed before 9 months old to have the spayed after the first season.
I donlt know why some vets and rescues would recommend this as I read that the reduction in the incidence of mammary tumours if 100% is done before the first season and 90% is done between the 1st and 2nd.
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i love dirty dancing
Oh! me too, and that is another line in the film. Its sad I know almost all the words.
Have you seen it in London yet ?
I have and its brilliant !!!
Excatly the same as the film
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yep ela that statistics you gave sounds about right. But i think 90 % is still pretty high and personally if it were my princess i'd like her to mature abit physcially first. It wasnt so bad in the smaller dogs where they were almost fully grown but take a 5 mnth labrador pup for example or similar are still very much puppyish at that age. I very much agree that bitches should be allowed to have no more than 1 season and also owners should clearly be given the facts for both and made aware of consenquences etc. Mind you i can fully understand and accept the reasons for it aswell as preventing the dog going through the hormonal upset that they normally do in a season.
I was trying to work out how many dogs out of say 1000 or whatever that that 10% would affect, however i think in order to do that then we'd need the statistics of how many actually go on to get mammary cancer if left entire and also when spayed after 1 season..i dont know where to find that and also its far too complicated for my brain LOL esp on a sunday.
stick to male dogs i say..must easier LOL
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furbaby : no i havent seen it in london id love to thou .
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everyone who wished me luck for tommorow fanks ,
i will let u all know as soon as we been to c the vet .
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.this is a forum for all not the local
But no Patrick I expect. The best Musical I have seen is Buddy
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stick to male dogs i say..must easier LOL
, don't they?
Obviously I something above before, but now have no idea what. Oh! I know I wrote but they still need their 'bits' of
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My oh has made up his mind makosi is defo pregnant
I Said well we will see tommorow wont we
he said ive already put some money to one side because i know you will insist on having a vet here while she gives birth knowing what ur like ! :innocent: how rude !
i thought it was quite nice he has put some money aside just incase
and id feel better knowing we had the money here to pay if anything went wrong
because obviously a home visit would cost a lot more then going to the surgery
at least by this time tommorow i will know
im starting to feel like a bad cat owner for ever letting the situation arise
:'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
i want her to act normal again
:'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
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I have still got to finish reading recent posts but have just read gills interesting one.
Re the premature babies, I agree that some the the terrible states these humans have to linger in until death comes is appauling but the biggest problem i reckon is if there are signs of life then obviously you must try and help and when its a "normal" but prem baby you have no idea really of what will lie ahead IE you cannot catagorically say they WILL have severe problems.
Take my son..he wasnt awfully premature only just over 4 wks which is nothing but my placenta hadnt worked and couldnt pass nutrition over to him from my blood supply so there for he was severely malnourished as a foetus and yes this has affected him to varying degrees, I should think my self lucky as it could be alot worse.
I agree where babies seem desparetely ill and doctors all agree 100% that there will be severe disablment/handicapped and give the parents the option of carrying on , altho i know how hard that would be having had a baby wired up and in an incubator I would not condem my child to a life like that.
also if i had been told i was going to have a severly handicapped child at my first scan i would not have carried on with the pregnancy but that would not have been a decision i could make lightly.
I think I may regret this but I can't bear not to...
"a life like that"... a life like what?
What does 'severely handicapped' mean to you... of course it's a personal decision and I'd never want to withhold someone's right to make that decision but it really really upsets me that so many of the supposedly awful 'severe' conditions are much milder than the impairments that I and my beloved friends and colleagues are living perfectly good lives with... quality of life's about being happy and stimulated and fulfilled, not about whether yer legs or bladder or brain work how they're meant to. I know that babies are left to die every day because their parents have come to the conclusion that they'd rather their child was dead than had cerebral palsy, or an intellectual impairment, or both... and try to kid themselves that it's for the baby's benefit.
I'm trying really hard to just express my feelings and not sound like I'm attacking anyone because that's not at all what I mean to do... so I'm really sorry in advance if this comes out sounding like it's having a go at you Lynn cos it's not meant to! :Luv:
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im thinking of the the people who cant see / hear / sit / walk / feed themselves / communicate. (not just one or two or a few of the list but all and more)
No i didnt think for a moment you were attacking me rebecca, you have a right to ask since i posted in first place.
I think many disablements are mild that others see has severe..i mean people are still aborting for cleft palate..i would not, downs i always feel upset about as their are such varying degress but a test can only tell if it has it or not, not how ill it would be so i would prob hope for the best in that situation aswell and deal with it.
There was that case last year i think it was where the courts and all docs had said a baby was suffering and if she needed resusitated again (shed already been lots of times) she shouldnt be but the parents won the appeal, on that type of thing i agreed with the docs, there wasnt just one or two but lots of them all saying the same that the poor baby was not going to ever get better to a stage where she'd have any quality in her life at all, and she was in pain...I think she is still alive though and i hope she isnt in pain but there was aparently no recognition of anything with her and i dont think she was going to be able to live outside the hospital ever, she'd always be as helpless as the day she was born if not more so...It just goes against my own grain to allow a person to stay in a condition like that, constant pain and not able to understand why or know who anyone is...not even recognise or know what a human is etc (i suppose perhaps vegetative state is the description im lookin for), no one would agree with keeping a cat or dog in that type of condition i dont think, they'd say you have to show them the last bit of love you can etc but in people we have to make them suffer the torture coz we have machines to keep them alive. (again talking worst cases)
I knew a girl with cerebal palsy, her parents were told she might not walk etc but she went on to be very studious and got extemely good high grades, learned to drive and i am sure she ice skated, if she didnt actually go on ice then she went all over watching competition as it was her first love..
I also know a little boy with i guess mild cerebal palsy, he was very prem and he is mainstream schooling with help, he doesnt appear affect that much physically tho.
I think its a difficult one as its all very well saying a person is all for pro life / pro choice etc but what if that person cant voice an opinion..how do we actually know they'd choose to carry on like they are esp where its modern technology that has kept them alive. ( i guess my son gets included there as he'd not be here if it wasnt for modern technology)
another thing along a similar lines i feel opinions on are women who are known carriers of a certain condition .. should they have kids or not, if you knew you were going to have a child with cf would you allow yourself to get pregnant ?? i also knew a woman(well sort of knew her, she was my landladys friend) who did just that twice, she had 2 and her son died from the cf and her daughter needed a lung transplant (i would strongly imagine she has since died too) , there was something on tv also last year or so documenting folk and this young woman had about 3 ok kids and had already had 2 babies i think who'd died from a rare condition and had been in and out of hosp and couldnt live without o2,poor quality of life etc, she had a live baby with the condition but knew she could die anytime and it was only a matter of time and was trying to get preg again even tho docs had said chances are very high of same thing, and this condition meant apart from the illness they'd always live with they would die in childhood, again i got upset watching that the girl was purposely getting herself pregnant and refusing all tests etc.
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Forever - it is good that your OH is putting food aside in case - you can't always guarantee on being able to get a home visit though, they tend to pick times when the vet are closed, and you have to go to the (more expensive) out of hours vet - it is also worth finding out where they are and how to drive to them just in case, as a lot of them wont do house calls.
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they tend to pick times when the vet are closed,
I can vouch for that I don't think I have ever had a cat give birth during the day. Also I cannot imagine a vet would be able to afford the time to say with a cat giving birth, although some are quite quick some take many hours.
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what time is your app today forever ??
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Lynn - I was talking about people with impairments that severe too. One of my best friends, P, has very very profound intellectual and physical impairments... not able to use the toilet, spoon fed soft foods only, drinks from a bottle as she can't manage a straw, no words or signs or 'formal' communication at all, just a little bit of body language and assorted little noises... people often confuse quality of life with functional impairment - you can have an excellent quality of life yet be fully dependant on others for meeting all of your daily needs, quality's about being happy and stimulated, you can be that even if totally blind and deaf, most profound intellectual disability, no independant movement, using a ventilator to breathe etc... people long term on ventilators have a tracheotomy so no tubes in their mouth or anything, no sedation, no pain relating to it. I absolutely :Luv: P and for some reason she seems very fond of me too, I get a BIG smile when we meet up and she gets v animated if someone holds the phone so I can talk to her. She was at special school which was really rubbish - she was bored all day and got very depressed and withdrawn, stopped responding to things, used to just go to sleep all the time, but then she went off to a specialist college and really came alive - they do loads of work on communication skills and music and stuff, she loved it... she's really into music and dance and things, she's a total bollywood junkie - all those bright colourful scenes. She finished her course at college in July and is now living in a shared house with 4 housemates with similar impairments, supported by a team of staff.
The little girl you're referring to is Charlotte Wyatt, she went home from hospital in October and is doing very well. She's currently with foster parents 'cos her poor dad developed some mental health issues and isn't quite well enough to have her on his own yet, but they're working on it. She does not experience constant pain, there isn't much to suggest she ever did really, she does have CP and probably some intellectual impairment and vision issues, but that's nothing compared to what they were saying when they wanted to be allowed to withhold resuscitation (which she hasn't needed since those court cases anyway - they won the last one so if she DID need it again, she'd get it). She'll be 4 this year, I think.
I can't walk or sit up on my own any more either, incidentally... I don't really think there's any such thing as a vegetative state, if someone's unconscious (coma) then that's that but if they're awake I'm pretty sure there's always some tiny flicker there... however far away and deep buried.
The genetic conditions thing is really really hard. I've got about the middle severity of my condition, in the most severe form the average life expectancy is mid 30s... because my partner is a woman I'm unlikely to ever have to make a decision about trying to conceive a baby and the risk that it would also have my syndrome, but it's incredibly complex. My quality of life is really really good, I've had a great run of it all and in a way I'd find it really hurtful if someone said that I oughtn't to have a baby because of risking them having the same thing, that implies in a way that my own life would be better off never happening, and that a 50-50 chance of a little Becca having the same syndrome is such an awful risk that it'd be better never to have a baby at all. As I said, chances are if we decide to become parents at all we'd almost certainly adopt... but I really don't think that anyone except a man or woman living with whichever condition it is, in that situation, can really make the judgement call there. If I did get pregnant I'd be at high risk of a very very premature delivery, which has its own implications in terms of possible impairment... but who could possibly parent a disabled child better than a disabled adult who's grown up with it all and already knows how to navigate the world as a disabled person? Certainly I'd find it easier than a non-disabled parent of a child with similar impairments to mine, I'm sure.
Obviously if the condition is one where the risk is of dead baby after dead baby... well thats a pretty awful set of choices to have to make, I have to wonder if there's something we don't know, either about the condition or about the poor mum's mental health because I'm really quite sure that nobody who was well would go through that process of decision making and come out on the side of 'go for it'.
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Becca this is a really interesting discussion and I know Lynn has started another thread for it, do you think you could move this post to the other thread.......its called Rebecca in chatting about none cat stuff..................if you cant move the post I will do it for you if you like.
I really think this thread should stick to the topic cos its still going on.
Its great to hear the piont of view from a person like yourself (Intelligent and educated but with a disability) and I am sure others will be interested too ;D
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What time are you at the vets tomorrow, Forever?
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10:30am
we have already booked the taxi
hopefully i may finally get an answer as to why my cat hasnt come in season :'(
her bowels are bk to normal today thank god
and she seems to have been more lively today :wow:
shes been more like she use to be today :wow: ive seen her playing quite a bit and its made me happy .
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ive seen her playing quite a bit and its made me happy
What will make me happy is if she is not pregnant and is spayed this week.
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Good luck and I hope you get some answers.
I would have thought that by now she'd be showing? And her nipples pink and raised? But then again I know next to nothing about pregnant cats.
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How did she get on at the vets?
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Hiya , the vet said makosi has a very high temprature today :'(
shes given her an injection to bring it down plus an anitbiotic injection
ive got to see how she is witin 48hrs
the vet felt her tummy and said she doesnt think she is pregnant but isnt going t o guarentee it
she also said that her symptoms of being quiet and eating a lot would be a sign of pregnancy but she said shes sure she`d be able to feel something at this stage
the vet said her tummy feels quite normal
and there is no answers as to why she has this temprature today :'(
im in such a bad mood and im so upset
Bridie is showing signs of having another uti again which she only finished tablets for a week ago
im bk at the vets tommorow with Briidie ,
oh and the vet weighed makosi and said she was 3.05 kg
now 2weeks ago when my other vet weighed her she was 3.3kgs
im in such a state ! i dont know what the hell is going on shes lost weight that means :'(
shes been eating loads thou :censored: im going in to my normal vet later and double checking she was def 3.3kg when she weighed her ,
my oh said maybe its coz they have different scales ???????
could that b the case do u think?would the scales sometimes read differently ?
the vet said the only things that would cause a cat to keep eating is pregnancy or worms :censored: :censored: how the hell can she have worms when shes been wormed n delfeaed
and surely if one had it theyd all have it and be eating more????????
:'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( there was a cat there with cat flu and it looked awful that upset me :'( and there was this stupid idiot woman who borught in a cat and said she wanted it put to sleep coz she didnt want it no more :censored: :censored: :censored: :censored: :censored: :censored: :censored: :censored: :censored: :censored: :censored: the vets went mad and said they werent puting a healthy cat to sleep and they were foning the cat n rabbit rescue to c if they could take the cat in :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
i just dont know what to do now for the best
the vet said she wasnt going to make any appointment for a spay till she checks her over again in 48hrs to make sure she has no temprature and is well
shall i give her a drontal pill just incase even thou it aint due yet ??????
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This is getting a bit like Faulty Towers now isn't it?
You should not worm a sick cat. Pregnancy and worms are not the only reason a cat will eat and eat and your vet will know that.
I think the time has come to make a decision in Makosi's interest.
As you know the voucher is valid until next week.
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Did you tell the vet about Makosi's runs yesterday? That could be connected with the high temp. If no vet can tell for definite now, I would book her into be spayed, just in case there is something else going on that has caused her to not come into heat again. Do her nipples look pink? Apparently some breeders can tell by 2.5 weeks by the pinking up of the nipples, so I am puzzled as to why two vets can't, but it would be enough for me to get her done. Please dont worm her with her not being well. And different scales can show a different weight too
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ill wait for the wormer till shes better
im gonna have a good look at her nipples again in a sec
i told the vet about the runs i told her everything
lets face it she cant be pregnant coz if not surely one of the vets would of felt something by this stage .
once shes been checked over again and given the 100percent all clear of any fever etc then shes gonna b spayed and that will be the end of it i hope .
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ill wait for the wormer till shes better
You could always ask the vet to give a worm injection while she is under anaesthetic.
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Poor Makosi - I hope she's feeling better soon.
lets face it she cant be pregnant coz if not surely one of the vets would of felt something by this stage .
I'd have thought so. If neither can pick up any signs of pregnancy at this stage I think it's safe to assume she's not pregnant. Assuming the vet still can't detect any signs when you take her back in 48 hours I'd get her booked in for a spay as soon as she's well enough.
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I agree she cant be pregnant...of course cats can get ovarian cysts and things and altho i cant rmember any of them to have caused symptoms they make play up with the hormones same as it can in humans ?
Ela there may be something knew now but the worming inj used to only be droncit which only killed tapes not rounds ?
my plan of action = get her over this bug/illness and get her spayed asap !
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I like the vet who would not PTS that cat and she will not be able to be spayed until the temp has gone I suspect, sure Lynn will correct me if I wrong.
But agree with Lynn get her booked in to be spayed
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correct gill !! i suspect the check in 48 hrs will determine her health status
also i meant to say
I agree she cant be pregnant
esp if 2 separate vets from different practices cant feel anything and she is supposedly 5wks !
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Fingers crossed her temp is better in 48 hours and that it isn't cos of anythign serious
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I Didnt know u could get worm injection
how much is it and does it last for 3mths or more ?
while we r on the subject of wormers which ones is the best ones to use
i use drontal cat tape and round wormer
someone said droncit was better ???????
what do u guys think .
as soon as shes over her fever n that shes def gonna b spayed now
as im very sure she isnt pregnant
and its for the best really
as i was so nervous and scared about her giving birth and didnt want her to have the liabilty of loking after kittens shes my baby and i just want her to enjoy a stress free life .
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Hope she gets better soon
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forever drontal kills both tape and round worms. droncit as far as i am aware only kills tape worm.
I only know of droncit worming injection which again only used to kill tape worm so you'd still need to treat for round worm. but that product may have changed and there could be newer products on the market i dont know about.
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oh i forgot to add earlier
re makosi acting differently the vet said it might be because shes fed up with max keep hassling her all the time and trying to jump on her
as b4 we got max whenever she came into season she never had no male cat bothering her ( bailey is neutered and has been since 6mths besides he is gay anyway he has never been intrested in the girls that way always just wanted to b one of them lol )
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I Didnt know u could get worm injection
how much is it and does it last for 3mths or more?
Wormers dont last for 3 months, they act at the time of dosing and dont stay in the body :) Treating every 3 months will keep an average cats worms at an accepatble level. 2 of mine are done every 6-8 weeks because they hunt!
Droncit comes in a spot on or tablet.
Drontal are fine to use but if you fancy a change try Milbemax, i swap mine every so often.
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Forever, how is she doing, and when is she next at the vet to see about her temp?
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she seems good again today shes been playing loads and wanting treats and cuddles shes seeing vet tommorow and if all is well ill get her spayed next week x
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Great news ;D
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Fingers crossed for tomorrow, I do hope her temp is down.
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Glad she is feeling better today :)
Hope you get some answers tomorrow xx
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thank u everyone
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How is Makosi today?
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Not too bad shes eaten breakfast and is now sleeping ,they r all sleeping apart from max
whos is chasing round the lounge making a buzzing sound like a bumble bee :rofl: