Purrs In Our Hearts - Cat Forum UK
Cat Health & Behaviour => Health & Behaviour General => Topic started by: JackSpratt on May 19, 2008, 11:16:56 AM
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I know there's a few people on here who have cats with kidney problems, so am basically starting this thread to get as much input as possible with regards to the best food for them. Also, would like to know which ones are extortionate and which are reasonable!
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Jess is on urinary s/o, mainly because he doesn't drink (which doesn't help the cystitis problems) and this is full of fluid and should encourage him to drink a bit more. Jess seems to love it and thats the main thing. Its expensive to buy though the vets so I get it though work which is considerably cheaper.
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low protein - good quality protein.
A vet told me that if you couldn't get them to eat any of the branded stuff, you can try bulking up normal catfood with mashed potato (work up to 50%). Don't know how palatable this would seem to the cat as I've not tried it there's the powder that can be added to normal food as well.
sorry, rambling......
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High quality protein is needed - but not necessarily low protein. Low phosphorus is recommended (that doesnt mean low protein though) The studies that recommended low protein were done on rats and humans therefore not applicable to cats! This is an excerpt from felinecrf.org:
Cats need a relatively high amount of protein in their diets, compared to say, dogs or humans; and if protein is reduced too early, it can cause weight loss, raised liver enzymes, and may in some cases contribute to the development of anaemia. This is particularly true of those CRF cats who leak protein in their urine (proteinuria), leading to low protein levels in the blood. Having said that, the low protein prescription diets claim to have sufficient protein for cats at all stages of CRF.
Low protein diets are also of concern for cats with metabolic acidosis, because studies of rats and humans with renal failure show that "acidosis may limit the ability of patients to adapt to dietary protein restrictions"
This section has lots of info about nutritional needs and data on tinned/dry foods. http://www.felinecrf.org/nutritional_requirements.htm
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I read something like that recently, it said cats fed on low protein diets could have muscle wastage :scared:
Therefore, I am not too concerned that Clapton won't eat any renal food.
Any senior food has around 30% less phosophorus than regular adult food so this is a cheaper way of reducing, although nowhere near as low as renal food.
To give you an idea - these are very rough figures for Phosphorus content in wet food.
Adult 1.3%
Senior 1%
Renal 0.3%
Clapton is doing well on a mix of Fortekor and senior food - although he also has adult food as a treat (felix in gravy) :Luv2:
He also has high quality protein - ie roast chicken - a little bit every day.
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So, the actualy renal diets aren't too good?
LJ took his first fortekor tablet this morning.....how long was it before you noticed any difference in Clapton, Mark?
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A couple of weeks to stabilise. It actuallt tells you in the leaflet - but it temporarily increses the creatinine levels so they can feel worse for a few days until it normalises. One thing I would say is try to avoid missing days as it can make them ill.
As for diets, I'm not convinced with renal food. Even If I could get Clapton to eat it, I would mix it with senior food to increase protein -that's me though, I can't advise what others should do.
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Even If I could get Clapton to eat it
Hits the nail on the head, not that many cats enjoy eating it. IMO a shorter life eating food they enjoy is better than a longer one where they dont get to enjoy their grub. My lot love their food and if i messed with that they would hate it.
Quality over quantity :shy:
LJ is also diabetic isnt he? I remember you saying a while back he was losing weight.
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Yep, he is MM. Although, oddly he "reverted" in February and hasn't had an insulin injection since then.
Mark, can you tell me Claptons senior food of choice? LJ is SOOOOO unimpressed with this Royal Canin food. (Although Big Lad tried to eat it!)
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Probably supermarket own :evillaugh:
Thats good he can go without his jabs
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Yep, weird situation.
I'm having a bit of a stress attack because he really isn't up for this renal stuff. All four of my cats are seven or over - that classes as senior doesn't it? (My cats all eat together, so if I can give the same food without it affecting LJ adversely it seems the wisest option.)
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Clapton's favourite is Felix senior. They sell 2 different variety packs in pouches making 8 flavours. They are 2 for £5 in Sainsbury's until 27th May. They also do an alutray of one of the variety packs but he won't touch it. He likes Adsa senior but you get 12 all the same (chicken) + it's in gravy which I try to avoid as he is one of those cats that has an increased appetite on Fortekor. He like the whiskas senior fisherman's choice pouches. I buy the regular senior pouches but he will only eat the chicken or poultry flavours - he hates the lamb and rabbit flavours - so does Alice :tired:
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Thanks Mark - sorry to bombard you with questions!
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Rosie prefers Felix Senior, despite being on Whiskas for years - Asda are doing the 24 packs of Whiskas Fish Senior for £4. I haven't seen them in 12 packs yet to test them on the cats though. Felix tins are the lowest protein, which is what my vet told me to look out for - some supermarket brands in gravy are actually lower than the renal food for protein, it was either Tesco or Aldi.
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I have never seen 24 packs of Whiskas senior - that's the one Alice & Clapton like - especially the shrimp one :Crazy:
I think I will have to brave Asda later in the week. btw - they don't like the Whiskas regular senior box - except chicken. They tolerate the poultry one but the rabbit and lamb get ignored.
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So I need Felix senior in gravy NOT in jelly? Gah, I was told to give him felix in jelly due to his diabetes issues.
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No, I give felix in gravy as an occasional treat. They don't make a senior in gravy.
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OK, gotcha! I'm easily confused!
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I agree with Milly that cats need to eat and its better a shorter life eating and being happy then suffering cos they hate the food. Also with LJ the diabetes is a problem so when stabalized as he now seems to be I would be hesitent in changing his food.
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MArk, PAH did the same box as Asda - I haven't been able to find the 12 pouch box, and as they have been picky with Whiskas SEnior (Except the supermeat, they did like that, but Rosie can't tolerate supermeat), I didn't want to buy 24 pouches for no one to like it. I also do try and avoid fishy flavours for Rosie, although there is some in box Felix boxes I have - I only noticed the alternative flavour of Senior pouches on Sat, so might try that when she has got through this lot. My Asda dont sell the trays though, and she likes those, so will have to go to Tesco at some point for those too!!
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You may as well try the 24 box for £4 as most places charge over £3 for the 12 box.
One thing I have noticed is all Felix, including adult, regardless of flavour, contains fish - whereas Whiskas meat flavours only contain meat.
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The thing is though, i dont give Molly food like Whiskas, the only low meat content food she gets is Asda Tiger Senior, and that is purely for the 2% fibre (highest I have found so far), so I dont want to buy a 24 box for Rosie to find she wont eat it, and to be honest, I am still debating between high meat content food and low protein content food for her. Zi has had some Whiskas Senior given by her rescue, but was fussy with it.
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Maybe a little sprinkle of Nutribyfa would bring the fibre up on Whiskas?
I was amazed how well the Fishermans choice went down here as I was wasting money buying the regular selection (chicken/poultry/rabbit/lamb) as most of it was wasted but they like all the flavours of the fish one - especially the shrimp :Crazy:
I don't buy the senior in gravy as they won't touch it.
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Just catching up with threads today, just wanted to say that for any cats who won't eat the usual renal food (even if its only as part of their diet), try the new RC tuna flavour pouches as they've gone down a storm with Max :)
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Where did you get them Clare?
I will have a look on VetUK as I need to do an order. Even if they eat it once a day, it cuts down on phosophorus - I wouldn't want to feed 100% renal diet after the various things I have heard.
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Hi Mark
I ordered them through my vets, but think I've seen them somewhere on line too, will have a think about where that was!
Max is fairly settled with this diet now, he has 'normal' food in the morning, so either a pouch of oh so meaty/fishy senior or Applaws, then he has a pouch of renal in the evening. I still leave him biscuits down all the time so he can choose what he wants to munch, and they're the RC renal dry food. He still gets treats when I'm eating too, a bit of beef or chicken here and there, as I still want him to get the goodness of fresh food too.
I've got to take him to get his bloods done again in the next week or so, and it will be interesting to see if the levels have come down more this time.
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Also with LJ the diabetes is a problem so when stabalized as he now seems to be I would be hesitent in changing his food.
That is one of my concerns Gill. But I take his BG levels every other day, and my options are limited with regards to course of action. He has no luck poor thing.
Hopefully I can figure out a diet to deal with this issue that won't affect BG readings. I do still have his insulin in case of emergency.
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Tiggy started on Felix senior alu-trays, she then refused these in favour of Gourmet Pearl but I used to sprinkle a phosphorous binder on it so that it brought the phosphorous levels down.
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I have a theory (like Ann Elk! :Crazy:) that Swampy only eats renal food because he's not eaten nicer commercial cat food for years. He was on RC renal pouches (chicken) which I blended and he ate off a spoon. I supplemented with some i/d or chicken senior food as was concerned about only renal. However for the last month he's refused to eat anything except k/d minced chicken, which he eats off a plate (albeit in 5 locations per meal :tired:). His energy levels are good and his coat is silky and he's gone from needing 1.6mls lactulose p.night to 1.2mls. Some of the good days may be down to the better weather, but I think the Hills renal food is (so far) suiting him. (I get neurotic posting this in case....). It has hard little bits in though so on bad days, those get 'filtered' out. It's also much better texture when absolutely fresh. The latest batches of the food have been softer and moister which he's liked. Being Hills, every time I order a new tray, I'm worried about if it'll be the same stuff......that's my main prob with Hills.
RC at least keep their food the same.
If he stops eating the renal, I think the next best is the Hills chicken senior pate food which is only 0.6 phosphorus. The turkey one is stickier but has more meat content, although I try not to think about what bits of the poor turkey make it into the can.
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Also with LJ the diabetes is a problem so when stabalized as he now seems to be I would be hesitent in changing his food.
That is one of my concerns Gill. But I take his BG levels every other day, and my options are limited with regards to course of action. He has no luck poor thing.
Hopefully I can figure out a diet to deal with this issue that won't affect BG readings. I do still have his insulin in case of emergency.
How out of range were his readings?
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His last reading taken a couple of days ago was 6.2. Things have been extremely odd today (event wise, not LJ wise) so ill take his BG levels tomorrow before food.
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Mark - I would rather Molly eat high meat content food with a supplement to help her constipation issues - she has eaten mainly adult food for the past 2.5 years, and her bloods are perfect for her age. Interestingly, I have 3 kinds of Felix Senior in the house for Rosie, and the alu-trays dont contain any fish, unlike the tins and pouches.
I got the RC Tuna Renal from my vets, but Rosie didn't like that any more than she did the other 3 varities I tried her on. So she gets a mix of Senior and HiLife, as I do like them to have high meat content food. She also wont eat the RC Renal dry, so vet said it was OK to give her normal, as quantity of life isn't the main issue wiht her, it is quality.
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I went to Asda this morning but the Whiskas offer has finished. They have the Felix senior 12's for £2.48 though.
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His last reading taken a couple of days ago was 6.2. Things have been extremely odd today (event wise, not LJ wise) so ill take his BG levels tomorrow before food.
I meant his results for kidney function sorry :doh:
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His last reading taken a couple of days ago was 6.2. Things have been extremely odd today (event wise, not LJ wise) so ill take his BG levels tomorrow before food.
I meant his results for kidney function sorry :doh:
Ahhh. A lot unfortunately. I have written it down somewhere but have been a bit frantic with the pratical side of things (injections, getting special food in....) so can't remember offhand where I put it.
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Does anyone else who gives their cat fortekor notice their cat dribbling more? Or is poor LJ having trouble with yet more things? (I'm calling the vet for a chat later, but thought I'd ask on here too.)
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Clapton doesn't really dribble since he had the last of his teeth out. I expected him to dribble and thought his tongue would hang out but neither things happen.
Alice dribbles but I think it is when she is contented. When I brush her with the slicker, she dribbles like mad.
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Phoned the vet and spoke to one of the three I trust! She said unfortunately, it's quite common for cats to develop "drooling issues" when diagnosed with kidney problems. I asked if there was anything I could do for him, and unfortunately all I can do is wipe his mouth hich I have been doing.
Although I've just looked over at "LJs futon" and he was cleaning himself - I actually don't remember the last time I saw him doing that. :Luv: (Little Cat is also sat cleaning herself on there - maybe our futon is now a grooming parlour. :shify:)
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Before I forget - best places to buy renal/senior food?.....ie: cost effective and in tins!
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Rosie does dribble, never thought of it being connected. As far as I know, only Felix Senior comes in tins (unless you count Whiskas Supermeat, but they are only 190g tins), only seen it in Morrisons and TEsco so far, for renal food, I would ask your vet for a couple of pouches of each flavour first, and if he likes any, then I Would go on VetUK, as it might be a bit cheaper. You might also want to be cheeky and ask if your vet can get samples of kidney dry - my vets have free samples of most prescription dry foods.
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Thanks Desley. :)
MM, his readings were very high but Helen (Tiggys Mum) informed me that Tiggys were pretty high when she first found out too. His creatinine reading was 500 (using their range it should be nearer a 100) and his urea reading was 46.(again, with their readings it should be 5-6.)
Am going to get a print out sent to me if possible so I know all the figures.
The last BG reading we took (yesterday) was 5.9, which is in the "safe zone."
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Interesting - I was going to say his are worse than Rosies', but the ranges are different on my vets machine. My vets dont let you have printouts, they just write down the relevant bits for you.
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The vets I go to have always given me a printout if I request it - which I usually do.I like to have all the relevant paperwork together so i can learn more aobut everything. (I don't always understand things straight away, but I try to!)
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I wish mine did that, I just get teh relevant bits written down so I can go away and look into things.
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Have you asked for a printout? I would think they aren't allowed to refuse.
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Yep, for more than one cat, and for some reason my vets dont do it, although I can look and make a note of the important bits, so I have Rosie's kidney results - although neither did the rescues vet when I Asked for some test results that had been done on a foster, I had to get the vets to ring for them.
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Huh. Oh well. It's probably only me that ever asks the vets for results to be printed out! (At my vets I mean, not in general.)
With regards to LJs drooling.....he's staining his chin. Can anyone tell me a good product that's safe to clean his fur? I don't want to hurt him, but it's awful seeing him look so ill and stained. :(