Purrs In Our Hearts - Cat Forum UK
Cat General => General Cat Chat => Topic started by: Mark on February 15, 2008, 10:03:03 AM
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Just for anyone that doesn't know. Bearing in mind the average catfood is around 1.5% :Crazy: , senior food around 1.2% and renal 0.5% - so I wouldn't like to feed this to any senior cat and definately not to cats with renal problems. The other flavours are close to 4% as well. Also the sodium levels aren't great. Added to the fact that they are only complementary, I won't buy them at all now.
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complementary food always bothers me tbh - it seems like a step backwards
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It scares me as I'm sure there are a lot of people with good intentions thinking they are giving their cat the best - I'm sure there are people that don't even know what complementary means :scared:
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That is worrying :-:
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Been doing a bit more reading up. Apparently, you can feed a rawfood diet to CRF cats cut you can't add bone as it is really high phos. You have to add a different type of calcium.
Will also read this when I get time
www.catinfo.org
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Its not that bone is high in phos Mark, its just that it contains phos, so adding it to a raw food diet means that you are adding more phos to the phos already in the meat - BUT if you add it in the right ratios, then its fine - if you think about it cats in the wild with or without CRF will still eat whole prey - bones, flesh and all, because the whole animal is the perfectly balanced ratio of calc to phos.
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I got the hi-life cans,seafood one last week,its a complete but I am dubious now about feeding this :scared:
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Not sure if the cans are on this list
http://www.felinecrf.org/tinned_food.htm
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I fed Geoffrey half of one of these pouches (think it was the sardine and mackerel one) the morning before he got sick with his sore kidneys, I wonder if it's related :Crazy:
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I don't think a one-off would matter. The problem is when it builds up in the system and their kidneys can't get rid of it quick enough :hug:
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Ok as a complete Cat novice would anyone mind explaining what CRF is and why high phosphorous levels are a problem please??
I looked around at foods before we got our kittens and settled on Hi life because its high meat content and wanting to feed our kittens a decent diet. Have I got this wrong? We're feeding the kitten pouches and tins which have 0.24/0.35% phosperous and 46% meat as opposed to Whiskas/Felixes measly 4%.
Maybe the kitten stuff is fine but I need to consider a new food when they turn adult??
Advice welcome because i'm a bit lost ATM! :Crazy:
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The figures for the kitten food are fine ;D
CRF is chronic renal failure - one of mine has it so I keep an eye on phosphorus content of food.
There is a whole site with info on CRF - it's very common in cats. A lot of people say dry food is one of the causes.
http://www.felinecrf.org
A lot of the adult Hi-life foods are only complementary - there are plenty of other premium foods you can buy, such as Applaws, bozita etc.
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I don't think a one-off would matter. The problem is when it builds up in the system and their kidneys can't get rid of it quick enough :hug:
My cats have sensitive stomachs and so are only fed RC Sensible 33. As a very rare treat I get them Hi-Life pouches. Given their sensitivity and reading the above so you think its ok to do this or would anyone recommend a better treat pouch. I always thought the meat content was quite good in Hi-Life and my cats go nuts for it.
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If it is only an occasional treat, it should be fine - but I can't say for sure - It was the phos levels that rang alarm bells for me.
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I have fed fishy HiLife to senior cats with no problems - and mine do have their organs checked on a yearly basis. I have also fed complimentary HiLife with no problems, you just have to make sure they eat an adequate amount of complete food, so mine had it with a bowl of dry, or just for one meal. I only stopped it cos it is harder to find, I haven't seen it in PAH on my last few visits. The tins are complete.
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hmm i bought a box of this to add some variety to my kitty's diet. He mainly eats Natures Menu pouches and loves the blue or green ones. He goes mad if we have tuna so thought id get some fishy food to give him a treat.. i dont feed it every day and he eats alot of dry food along side it so hopefully its ok.
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I'm not sure that a high phosphorus content is a problem for cats without kidney problems? I think it's not so much the phosphorus content as the phosphorus to calcium ratio? I also think that a lot of fishy foods tend to have a relatively high P content? (could be wrong there). I don't see any problem with feeding it to a healthy cat but I wouldn't feed it every day. I think the other hi life pouches have a lower P content. One of the advantages of feeding a variety of brands and flavours is that things like this tend to balance out with one food being higher in something and another lower in it. I don't feed the hi life seafood flake pouches very often as Mosi doesn't like them and I'm careful about feeding anything with a high P content to Jaffa.
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Diddeen, have you tried him with sardines/pilchards in tomato sauce? :cook:
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This is from a site that explains why regular canned tuna is unsuitable for cats http://maxshouse.com/Tuna_and_Cats_Nutritional_Facts.htm
Excess phosphorus can result in bone loss, uroliths, decreased weight gain, decreased feed intake, calcification of soft tissues, secondary
hyperparathyroidism. Levels of phosphorus exceeding 0.6% (DMB) are associated with lower plasma phosphorus concentrations, reduced creatinine
clearance and decreased magnesium absorption. Continued feeding of high levels of dietary phosphorus may be detrimental to renal function.
Inadequate calcium intake produces hypocalcemia, which stimulates release of PTH, which in turn stimulates production of
1,25-dihydroxycholecalciferol, resulting in a higher fractional absorption of calcium and phosphate, and lower calcium but higher phosphate
concentration in urine. PTH acts with vitamin D to promote bone resorption and turnover, which may lead to pathologic fractures.
A food grossly deficient in calcium, but adequate in phosphorus can cause secondary hyperparathyroidism.
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Thats with longterm/regular feeding, giving hi life seafood pouch or some normal tuna every so often isnt going to damage your cats
All in moderation
Alcohol, cho.colate and mac donalds are bad for humans, how many of us indulge in one of those every so often!
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Phosphorus draws calcium from the bones so too much phosphorus can be bad, but I would guess that a moderate amount of phosphorus is equally bad if there is insufficient calcium too. So it's as much about the ratio between the 2 as it is about the phosphorus (in a healthy cat, at least). Anyone know the Ca content of the hi life?!
But I agree with MM - it's about moderation.
I haven't done much reading about the role of individual minerals in cat food tbh, but I found this explanation interesting.
http://www.felinefuture.com/nutrition/bonesandcalcium.php
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Does anyone have the info on phosphorus levels in supermarket foods like Sheba or M&S cat food? I'm assuming that they are at the upper end of the scale.
Interesting that Denes haven't brought out a food lower in phosphorus as yet.
The vet mentioned Purina but it's listed as really low in fat (too low?).
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Does anyone have the info on phosphorus levels in supermarket foods like Sheba or M&S cat food? I'm assuming that they are at the upper end of the scale.
Interesting that Denes haven't brought out a food lower in phosphorus as yet.
The vet mentioned Purina but it's listed as really low in fat (too low?).
I don't know about supermarket foods, but theres the list of some tinned foods on the felincrf site. Some of the Denes foods arent so bad phos wise http://felinecrf.org/tinned_food.htm
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Mark, interesting article, but HiLife isn't just plain canned tuna (and it is normally the bits of tuna we dont eat), it does have things added to it, especially the complete one, to make it a balanced diet. And, the complimentary ones need to be fed alongside complete foods, so you would be making up the balance there.
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I just can't see the point of feeding complementary foods. Mine get chicken or fish most days so that is enough complementary for them so I make sure everything else is complete.
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I have to say that the only time mine get a complementary food it is a special occasion, like Christmas, as a treat.
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I just can't see the point of feeding complementary foods. Mine get chicken or fish most days so that is enough complementary for them so I make sure everything else is complete.
So you do feed complementary foods! Every day! ;) I only really feed complementary foods because they exist. I would prefer them to be complete. The meat/poultry pouches by hi life are complementary but Mosi loves them and I think they are a good quality food. So I feed them sometimes alongside a complete food. Applaws and almo nature are also complementary, but again my cats like them so they get them a couple of times a week.
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Whatever :tired:
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I do give Max Applaws alongside his new renal food, as he goes nuts for the chicken and cheese ....... I think as long as folks know they are not complete meals and do not feed these meals all the time, they are OK. At the moment with all the weird stuff Max is having to eat, just getting some food down him some days is a bonus :shy:
J told me off on Sunday as I gave him his own little bowl of roast chicken with peas and carrots ........ figure they still gotta have the occasional treat :evillaugh:
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Sorry to stick my two penneth in here, I have found the links posted to be interesting reading but, and I may be wrong so please enlighten me if i am, the link that Suzanne posted which mentions the Instincts cat food has me a little concerned as it also mentions that it is recomended that you also buy the Liver powder or add raw liver/meat to the food in order to make it complete. Now my understanding is that feeding excess liver will cause the condition hypervitaminosis, which is an incredibly painful condition and irriversible, resulting in the poor animal being PTS. So I am assuming that by adding the liver powder or raw liver is gonna have the same ill effects if fed as recomended, or would I be wrong?
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Im glad I read this.
I have been feeding Tiffy my CRF cat Hi life pouches.
Only because its one of the only foods that he will eat.
I guess I need to try and find alternatives.
Problem is.....He wont eat any CRF specific foods and so I have to let him eat whatever he will eat.
He is 18 and I feel that quality of life is an important issue. I want him to enjoy his time left with me.
I would rather that than him refuse to eat and deteriorate fast
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Clapton won't eat any CRF foods so I just TRY to keep his food as low phos as possible. The new Whiskas OH So senior seems to go down quite well and that will be fairly low. He has been thriving on Tesco own on Jelly pouches for over a year with no ill effects as well. Just lately, he has also decided he likes felix, both in Jelly and gravy - but he won't eat the senior. He alos used to like Hi-life but I stopped giving it to him last year when my vet said not to give him any pork whatsoever due to the pork molecules being to large for cat's capillaries.
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Sorry to stick my two penneth in here, I have found the links posted to be interesting reading but, and I may be wrong so please enlighten me if i am, the link that Suzanne posted which mentions the Instincts cat food has me a little concerned as it also mentions that it is recomended that you also buy the Liver powder or add raw liver/meat to the food in order to make it complete. Now my understanding is that feeding excess liver will cause the condition hypervitaminosis, which is an incredibly painful condition and irriversible, resulting in the poor animal being PTS. So I am assuming that by adding the liver powder or raw liver is gonna have the same ill effects if fed as recomended, or would I be wrong?
The feline instincts powder is to add to raw meat for those feeding a raw diet. What they're pointing out is that it's not enough to just feed muscle meat but that some organ meat needs to be added too. The feline instincts plus muscle meat plus organ meat makes for a complete food (I think that's it).
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Instincts cat food has me a little concerned as it also mentions that it is recomended that you also buy the Liver powder or add raw liver/meat to the food in order to make it complete. Now my understanding is that feeding excess liver will cause the condition hypervitaminosis, which is an incredibly painful condition and irriversible, resulting in the poor animal being PTS. So I am assuming that by adding the liver powder or raw liver is gonna have the same ill effects if fed as recomended, or would I be wrong?
Elaine, you are right about feeding excess liver - but the key word there is EXCESS. Instincts is a powdered supplement that is added to raw meat + offal to make a balanced raw diet. Their liver powder is for people (probably of a delicate dispostion LOL!) who would rather use a powdered liver supplement than the real thing! So if liver powder or real liver is added in the corrected proportions as set out in the recipe - then there is no excess. In fact offal is essential to make a balanced raw meat diet.
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Aha! snap Susanne! - except I think you put it much more succintly than I did LOL! ;D
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No, I think you explained it better! I still haven't got around to getting some of the instincts stuff to try making a raw meal. I suspect I might be one of those of a delicate dispostion who buys the liver powder too ;D
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No, I think you explained it better! I still haven't got around to getting some of the instincts stuff to try making a raw meal. I suspect I might be one of those of a delicate dispostion who buys the liver powder too ;D
LOL :rofl: Mine like the Instincts, and actually I've made the recipe with the liver powder before just to try it out and I think they liked it even better than the raw liver!
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I used to feed HiLife as an alternative to 'proper' chicken/fish, I think I only stopped when Natures Menu came out and it came in bigger boxes, but I do still bulk buy the Tuna and SAlmon HiLife (ideal for ill/fussy cats, very rarely find a cat that will turn it down). i might try it on Zia though, as she eats a lot of dry food, so will be fine on complimentary, and I do still buy HiLife complete foods, mainly the tuna pouches, as again, very few cats turn it down, so ideal when new fosters dont want to eat.
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Thankyou Sussane and Gillian for explaining that, I may give it a go myself.
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Thankyou Sussane and Gillian for explaining that, I may give it a go myself.
I would suggest you give it to the cat :rofl: :evillaugh:
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:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
That would be the most sensible option but i am but a simple person as DD will probably tell you
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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:rofl:
Please let us know how palatable you find it..... :sick: