Purrs In Our Hearts - Cat Forum UK
Cat General => General Cat Chat => Topic started by: ccmacey on March 23, 2008, 21:28:39 PM
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Would like to get some thoughts on this subject, why you agree or why you disagree. I'm talking about cats inparticular.
I dont really know my own status on this because if all the cats in the world were neutered (long shot I know) surely there would be cats no more?
I have just read a comment in another post saying "some breeders are ok as they keep particular breeds going, which must not die out"
But what about the pure moggies I'm sure everyone loves them and you dont get a reputable breeder breeding these types of cats, do you?
What do you think a reputable breeder must have/ know about cats to be able to breed them safely?
Last of all whats the difference between a Pedigree and a Moggie breeder? Surely if they have the same knowledge/ care it's the same difference?
Please keep things just to the point on this one thanks.
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Last of all whats the difference between a Pedigree and a Moggie breeder? Surely if they have the same knowledge/ care it's the same difference?
From a Cat Fancy perspective, all breeders (reputable including for show purposes) must be registered with a governing body e.g. GCCF, TICA or Felis Britannica.
With respect to the GCCF, there is a Code of Ethics for breeders, to which they must adhere - deviation from this will give rise to disciplinary action i.e. fines, bans etc. What this boils down to is:
All kittens must be at least 13 weeks old prior to homing, have their complete kitten course of vaccinations, be wormed, flead and come with all the relevant paperwork.
Moggy breeders (and also unfortunately backstreet ped breeders) have absolutely no obligation to do any of this, so consequently kittens are sold at a much younger age, sometimes barely old enough to be away from mum, tend to be unvaccinated, will not be health-checked and in the case of backstreet ped breeders, the kittens will have no papers and therefore no proof that they are what the breeder says they are.
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Moggy breeders (and also unfortunately backstreet ped breeders) have absolutely no obligation to do any of this, so consequently kittens are sold at a much younger age, sometimes barely old enough to be away from mum, tend to be unvaccinated, will not be health-checked and in the case of backstreet ped breeders, the kittens will have no papers and therefore no proof that they are what the breeder says they are.
I think that is a very valid point which is largely true. The vast majority of people who care for moggies will have them neutered. Generally speaking,those people can know as much or more than breeders on a more general basis but not as much about a specific breed. However, it is the backstreet breeders who care little and know less about the animals, who are just means of quick cash as far as they are concerned. I would love to be able to wipe them out. (NB: reda that however you like :naughty:They are a massive part of the problem of too many animals ,many of whom end up unwanted and cared for, if lucky, when they become surplus to requirements.
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I dont have any issue with pedigree breeders, as there are breeds that have been around longer than any of us, and it would be a shame to lose them purely cos of irresponsible people allowing their cats to breed causing an overpopulation issue - pedigrees only account for about 2% of the population. I do think there should be stricter guidelines to make sure that anyone who does breed pedigrees are reputable, and there should be a stop on creating new breeds while we have an overpopulation issue. I also think early spay/neuter should be done more to prevent people letting kittens, either moggie or pedigree, breed.
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I personally do not believe in breeding (what a surprise many of you will say) ;D
Please don't be led into thinking that if everyone had their cat neutered/spayed they would die out, that is just not going to happen there are far too many irresponsible people for that. If there were a few less cats/kittens available would it be such a bad thing? Maybe just maybe they would be more valued.
Each week I am asked to bring in a number a number of pedigree cats, Bengal, Siamese and Persians being the most poplar breeds I am offered. Even pedigrees rescues are usually always full to bursting.
I appreciate however, that many of us have different opinions on this emotive topic.
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I'm not against breeding. I'm for responsible pedigree breeding ... I could go on and on and on about the subject for dogs lol but I don't know enough about cats to go into what I feel is responsible.
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Please don't be led into thinking that if everyone had their cat neutered/spayed they would die out, that is just not going to happen there are far too many irresponsible people for that.
But if everyone had their cat spayed or neutered surely then there would be no irresponsible people, hence no kittens?
I think maybe if you want to breed from ANY cat be it a moggy or a purebreed, you should have to obtain a license. That way the situation would have an element of control about it and there wouldn't be population booms as regularly as there is.
I don't disagree with breeding, but feel it is a litte unneccesary.
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But if everyone had their cat spayed or neutered surely then there would be no irresponsible people, hence no kittens?
Not every cat has an owner ........
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But if everyone had their cat spayed or neutered surely then there would be no irresponsible people, hence no kittens
I hear that said most days (well I hear' if everyone had their cats neutered there would be no kittens')and it is one the the comments that does annoy me, and it takes a lot I can tell you.
There are always going to be irresponsible owners and there are always thousands of strays up and down the country. You know yourself who knew about a stray tom and although we lent a trap and gave a free voucher for neutering, which would also cover flea and worm treatment yet it did not use it as the person concerned kept saying I want to see if I can get it without trapping. The trap was returned after quite a long time still not used. The length of time the trap was out and not used that tom could have fathered hundreds of kittens, and may be still doing so for all I know. So if that idea comes from someone who really cares and has a knowledge of the implications of allowing cats to roam unneutered. you must know that there are thousands of people who do not have your knowledge.
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I think I'm reading your posts wrong, Ela. :scared: Anyway, back on topic - CC, I feel that if cats are bred there should be an element of control to the stuation as kitten figures seem to be steadily rising each year and more older cats seem to be getting discarded to make way for them.
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I think this topic has been discussed before on a previous thread: http://www.purrsinourhearts.co.uk/index.php/topic,11111.0.html
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There goes Ela repeting herself again in more ways than one lol sorry :evillaugh:
I do suppose most ped breeders are doing it because they love the breed, but what about the mog breeders, I do think most do it for the money which I dont think is right.
So someone who got the kittens all checked out before homing them would be ok regardless of being ped or mog? But thats in with the price of a ped I would think so the new owner would be paying for that anyway.
So someone in my situation with a love for cats would be ok to breed?
But my love for cats stops me from breeding because I could not asure a safe and happy life for them for the rest of their lives.
So what Im think Im trying to say is if you love cats that much how could you breed not being able to safe guard them forever?
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Is a moggie the same as a mongrel or is a moggie a cat without papers? Sorry for the dumb question I really don't know. I've come from the dog world and am still learning.
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Moggie is a non ped cat. Ped cats without papers are just copycats.
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I think this topic has been discussed before on a previous thread: http://www.purrsinourhearts.co.uk/index.php/topic,11111.0.html
Thanks Sam but I feel this is a different topic all together, That topic is asking wether they should breed, Im asking peoples opinions about breeding. :shy:
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This is a hard one for me as I don't know how cat breeding works. If you have a cat and don't know the parents and want to breed because it's a great cat and you want another one like it then NO!! thats not a good reason for breeding.
I'd say no to breeding moggies ... just going on with dogs I like papers (unless they are ISDS regs or proven working dogs in the case of Border Collies). It's not just about papers though because people still exploit that. Just because your cat may have papers doesn't mean it's a right to breed .. it's about the breeder themselves, their motives and their goals. If you are going to breed you should know the lines of the animal inside out (parents, grandparents, great-grandparents etc) and you should be doing it to improve the breed. The parents should be health checked ... not just the kittens.
So someone who got the kittens all checked out before homing them would be ok regardless of being ped or mog?
Not for me it wouldn't.
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and you should be doing it to improve the breed.
Sadly for many pedigreed breeders, 'improving the breed' amounts to accentuating points and characteristics that are prized by the judges, but do not necessarily benefit the cat.
Anyone who chooses to breed should be doing so because they are producing healthy animals that are of good temperament. Pedigreed animals are just as likely to end up on the loose as moggies. Breeding anything, human or animal, is a big responsibility if you are not also willing to take responsibility for the health and well-being of the offspring. Unfortunately, just as people breed indiscriminately at times, so too do people who have animals. When the world is a better place and everyone accepts that they are responsibility for how their actions affect the lives and wellbeing of everyone and everything around them, we won't need to have this discussion. But sadly the world is the place that it is, and there are problems as a result of irresponsible human behaviour. We are the only ones who can make the decisions, and we have a responsibility to ensure our decisions are taken with the world view in mind. Most of us don't.
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it's about the breeder themselves, their motives and their goals. If you are going to breed you should know the lines of the animal inside out (parents, grandparents, great-grandparents etc) and you should be doing it to improve the breed. The parents should be health checked ... not just the kittens.
I agree with that. Imo, there isn't really a straight forward answer to this, as the definition of "breeder" is so vague and subjective. I can't even say that I think it's ok to breed pedigree cats. I think it's ok for responsible breeders to breed pedigree cats because I love some of the breeds and would not like them to become extinct. I completely understand the pov that sees all cats as just cats, and doesn't distinguish between peds and non peds, and therefore is opposed to all breeding. But I wouldn't want to see the future of pedigree cats left in the hands of irresponsible or backyard breeders, and that's what would happen if the good guys stopped breeding. If reputable pedigree breeders stopped breeding, then the only place to get a british shorthair or a Persian or a Bengal etc.... would be from backyard breeders. The demand wouldn't just disappear. And god knows what state the breed would be in with the lack of health testing and care which a reputable breeder will carry out (improving the breed means eliminating any health issues as much as anything else). But of course, there are a lot of bad pedigree breeders, including those who register their cats. I do wish there was more control over breeding, but it would have to be well policed otherwise breeding of pedigree cats would just be pushed underground. There are many people who are willing to buy a so called pedigree cat without papers, so I'm sure many would be happy to buy from an unlicensed breeder.
I'll admit that I've no idea how I would want the breeding of non pedigree cats to occur in an ideal world. Because it's something that is unlikely to happen in the forseeable future (or ever), it's something I've never felt the need to think about too deeply, but it is interesting to hypotherise. If everybody really did neuter their cats, we would have to come up with a responsible way of breeding moggies. Would certain people be given a licence? Would those people allow their cats to roam free to find a mate? Or would specific individuals be bred in the way that pedigree cats are now? In which case, selective breeding would be taking place, with moggies being treated as a specific breed. I'm afraid I don't have an answer to that one.
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There goes Ela repeting herself again in more ways than one lol sorry
If a question is asked more than once, or misread then the result is a repeat of the answer or what that particular poster feels is the answer or their thoughts. ;D
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and you should be doing it to improve the breed.
Sadly for many pedigreed breeders, 'improving the breed' amounts to accentuating points and characteristics that are prized by the judges, but do not necessarily benefit the cat.
See that to me isn't improving the breed and it annoys me. *going into doggie mode* I don't like they way they are creating low roached backs on GSDs it's ruining the breed .. but there are breeders out there who arent breeding that way. I HATE the way Golden Retrievers are looking at the moment ... but you can still find beautiful working GR's who look how they are supposed to. Plus I DETEST Barbie Collies :sick: :sick: and people who breed for sport as it's ruining the breed. This is why I find it so hard to explain my views. I can't say I don't disagree with breeding because that would be a lie ... I do believe in it. I would only buy and support certain people, those that I think are good. Those that go for the breed and not what the judge/current trend might want.
I totally agree with breeders having life long responsibility. Those who will take back the animals they bred no matter how old the animal is.
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I'm certainly with you there Den, having been to a cat show a few months back, for the first time in years ........ I was shocked and disappointed to see what has been done to the siamese and orential breeds in the interests of accentuating points. I know that there are breeders out there who do not produce animals like that, but siamese are in danger of going the way of persians in producing animals that will have increasing difficulties with breathing and sight, simply because these very necessary functions have been compromised in the interests of achieing extreme features ....... >:(
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I think it's very sad that breeders of traditional siamese can't show their cats, even though they fit in with the breed standard, because they haven't a hope in hell of winning anything.
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What do siamese cats look like now? I love traditional siamese - a great aunt of mine used to keep them. (or breed them, it's hard to tell when you're young and there's a lot of cats!)
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What do siamese cats look like now?
I'd like to see too. I don't know what they did like/what they look like now.
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this is what they used to look like, back when I bred them
and this is how they look now - as you can see the eye is right over on the side of the face and doesn't really look like it fits is eye socket comfortably, and the nose is very narrow. I have seen some where the skin around the eye is bare of fur, so they look like they have something nasty wrong with them
[attachment deleted by admin]
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:-: Doesn't even look like the same breed.
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the wedge shape and wide-set ears is a breed standard, as you can see, this is what breeding to meet the standard does to any pedigreed breed over time. FOrtunately you can still get siamese who look like the top pic, they just don't go well in shows ...... >:(
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Looks like someone needs to change the breed standard back :scared:
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the standard has remained the same, it is just that breeding to that standard has accentuated certain physical characteristics as desirable and as the change occurs over many generations, people don't really seem to notice until it is affecting the animal's well-being. LIke that persian Ratie (?) owned, who was unable to breathe without being surgically altered. The flat face of a person leads to all sorts of physical discomfort also and makes them a high-maintenance cat unable to effectively groom itself or breathe. Breeds are lovely, but showing and lack of care in setting the breed characteristics, means that at times the animals become the victims of their own popularity.
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Yep, the top ones are the type I remember - much nicer. Sorry, CC was just curious.
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The breed standard calls for ears to be set wide apart - as the face has got narrower, the only way that can be achieved is to stick them on the side of the head! Not a good look, imo.
I've posted this pic before, but this is what I consider ideal for siamese. It's somewhere between the old style and the modern.
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y43/urbantigers/siamese.jpg)
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Ohhhhhhhhhhh those eyes are stunning :Luv: :Luv:
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and rather better placed - they are actually resting in an eyesocket!!
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In the current climate im anti breeding, the amount of pedigrees being bred and sold to those with no commitment to the life of a cat are flooding breed specific rescues. A cap on breeding peds is needed IMO.
Too many people in it for the money, not caring who they sell too as long as its the right price and dont offer any kind of return policy, not that they should need it very often if they only sold to appropriate people :sigh: :sigh: :sigh:
I cant ever imagine a near 100% neuter figure being reached, theres nobody to police it for starters. The world doesnt care what happens to animals, they are too busy messing around with mother natures DNA >:(
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Too many people in it for the money, not caring who they sell too as long as its the right price and dont offer any kind of return policy,
How right you are, very often I am asked to taken in breed cats some very young. I always ask if the caller has contacted the breeder to see if they can take the kitten/cat back or make a suggestion who can. I have never had any other reply but 'they don't want to know'.
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CC, peds without papers aren't copycats, they are moggies. I was asked by the receptionist at my vet if I knew anyone who wanted an only Bengal (multi-cat household issues), and I asked if htey had spoken to the breeder, and he looked as though that had never ever entered his mind = and he has rescue Siamese.
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Des made the comment early on in this thread (ist page)
pedigrees only account for about 2% of the population
I am not sure where that comes from unless it is an educated guess. I would interested to know Des as it is a subject close to my heart, as nobody in this country seems to be having a grown up debate about unwanted animal birth and what to do.
Lets us take that 2% as a starter. The GCCF had 31,133 cats registered by members in 2006. I have no knowledge about TICA and Felis Britannica don't publish the figures and seem to regard it as a closed secret. Ignoring those two, ignoring unregistered breeders and the outright irresponsible owners and assuming that is an annual pedigree figure, that would mean circa 1,556,650 new cat births oper annum.
It is why this debate is necessary as the strain on rescues is simply collosal and often intolerable. It is why there is rarely a spare pen abvailable for more than a few minutes. It is also why they need every cat lover's financial support.
There is no one simple solution. It is not a fault of any one area of the cat world but it is a collective fault. Existing and prospective owners need to be educated along with the younger generations. It is everybody's problem from the individual cat owner who refuses to look at the question and the suffering it brings to the irresponsible registered breeders and backstreet breeders right through to the large national charities paid officials and charity trustees who simply do too little and should combine therir resources on this subject and spread the cost in the process.
It is why there should be a proper debate which Cats Protection (as the premier cat charity) should host along with other national charities, independent rescues, veterinary representation and breeders associations. If a law has to be passed then so be it. I am not a lover of Self regulation, as it is totally ignored by many which does untold harm. All these organisations have a moral obligation to discuss this question and the room where it is debated should have a sign above the door which simply says Check your ego in at the door and collect again on the way out. Do I think this debate will happen? No. Meanwhile the only losers are many within the cat population.
And before anyone who doesn't know me asks the inevitable - No, I am totally against a destruction policy.
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IT is one of those things I read, and have no idea where, it just stuck in my mind - although looking at your figures, it might be a lot higher now, or I could have been thinking of the rescue population. I am off work this week though, so will try and look it up again. I was with friends on Fri, and the subject of rescue came up, as he had heard some stats on dog rescue (that shocked me to be honest), and we both decided that the only way anything would happen, would be through education. I personally think the charities that can afford to put adverts on the TV should focus them on neutering rather than cruelty, as if there were less animals, there would be less cruelty, as they would be in loving homes.
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Early spay and neuter would go some way to addressing the problem. If kittens were already neutered before they went to new homes, there would not be the opportunity for accidental pregnancies or for new owners to fail to get their cats done before they went into heat and ended up pregnant.
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rescues in Oz, used to release puppies and kittens with a neuter voucher. Now they don't release them until they are done. Shadow had already had his stitches removed when I adopted him aged 4 months. It is beyond my comprehension why a rescue would release an entire animal to a new home ....
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I have been saying this for ages, but with the reaction from both the rescue I foster for and our vets, it is going to be a very long time before this changes - neither like the thought of operating on babies. Yet no issue in putting a male kitten through a hernia op!! One rescue near me neuters everything at 8 weeks, one at 10 weeks, but it isnt common practice, and therefore there aren't the vets with the experience.
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Hi We at MCAW :Crazy: certainly would not agree with neutering at such an early age. The cat would not have the chance to develop natural hormones. Ferals :evillaugh: if absolutely necessary we would neuter at 4 months only because once trapped it may be very difficult to get the little :naughty: devils in the trap again! Also at this age you might find it quite difficult to calm them for re homing as domestic pets-8/10 weeks are mostly calmed for domestic homes.
Sorry Blackcat I thought we were talking about neutering kittens, but having said this we certainly agree dogs and bitches should be neutered as soon as they are old enough!
MCAW Do take in dogs and puppy's All dogs who come into our care that are old enough are neutered by our vet as are any cats or kittens that are old enough. Like most rescues we insist on neutering! If we home kittens say 12 weeks old we certainly check with the new owners vet that they have been brought in for neuter at the appropriate age. We check all prospective new owners veterinary info before we home.
Can I just say MCAW are a registered charity (and we do not get funding from anywhere other than donations and fundraising) all our workers are volunteers including the 5 trustees who are all multitasking from cleaning, trapping, looking after the office and nursing any sick cats or kittens we have in care!
Thank you for the welcome Dawn! :thanks: We will certainly be getting involved with the discussions when we have time as we are very often very busy. We have just reopened as we have had the building completely refurbished after having the dreaded Panleukopenia!! We are now adjusting to a strict Isolation and barrier nursing regime as we certainly do not ever want to go through such a traumatic time again!
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as you are new to the site MCAW you would not be aware that Shadow is actually a large-breed dog.
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i have met a male who was neutered at 10 weeks, he was 16months when I last saw him and it hadn't affected his development. Here is their website, both were neutered at 10 weeks.
http://www.albertandflorence.com/
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pedigrees only account for about 2% of the population
If that is true then it is an astonishing % that we are asked to bring into rescue as it is far more that 2% of the number we are asked to bring in.
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I have come across a few breeders who will as a matter of course, have their vet do early neuters on their kittens before they are allowed to go to new homes.
IMHO that is a sensible thing to do as putting kittens not intended to be future queens and studs on the GCCF Non-Active register is absolutely no guarantee that they won't be bred from in the future. The Non-Active register is also no guarantee that the said kittens will be neutered. By homing kittens that are already neutered, it does prevent a whole host of potential problems, especially given that some owners are not as scrupulous as others.
In answer to a point Ela made earlier in the thread about the number of pedigree cats ending up in rescue, that is purely down to people not doing enough research before acquiring a pedigree cat. A clued-up future pedigree cat slave goes to shows, looks at the cats, talks to the breeders and exhibitors, looks at their own lifestyle etc before deciding on whether the breed they've set their heart on is right for them - and if not, what are possible alternatives?
Someone who rushes into getting a pedigree cat, perhaps because their favourite celebrity has got one or because it gets seen as a status symbol etc is usually the same person who chooses a breed that it inappropriate for them and then as a result, the poor cat ends up in rescue through no fault of its own. A friend of mine has recently given a home to an unwanted Sphynx.
Research into choosing a pedigree breed should go far deeper than looks. If you want a Siamese / Oriental / Tonkinese / Burmese, can you cope with the demanding temperament? If you want a Persian, can you keep on top of the grooming? If you want a Bengal, can you cope with both the activity levels and the possible dicky tums?
P.S. An oriental breeder friend of mine calls the current siamese "Little Aliens" :shocked:
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Well from someone who is relatively new to the world of cats this is my perspective on it. Breeders are ultimately in it for the money, OK they might love a particular breed but the money side of things is the deciding factor. I would be interested to know how often they mate the same cat in a year. The reason I say that is because having visited certain breeders sites a lot seem to sell their queens and studs after only maybe 3 - 4 years. Which to me just goes to show how much they love their breed, basically they've used and abused the cats, as they are of no further breeding use so their up for sale. As for breeding breeds like the Sphinx, it looks awful, the poor cat probably feels awful itself and is bred for no other reason than to make money and for the owner to look 'cool' with a strange unusual looking animal. And a lot of other breeds run along the same lines as this ie Bengals.
As for moggie breeders again, I think some owners are uneducated or just get caught out, I know I did when I took in Mollie with a broken leg, at the time it was inappropriate to spay her, in hindsight we probably should have, but none of the kittens were sold. Four went to vetted homes and I kept two, all six have been spayed or neutered. I also think that what was once often referred to as the backstreet pet traders, I remember years ago seeing crate upon crate of animals in Petticoat lane market up for sale, fortunately this has now ceased, but it's only transfered to the hidden world wide web. So I am against breeding especially for money it just seems so immoral to me. Finally all my cats are priceless and nobody has enough money to buy them, cos I love em...
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Barney - reputable breeders do not make money out of cat breeding. Quite the contrary, it costs a lot to do it properly and if there are any health problems it can end up costing a lot. When you add in the cost of showing, it's a very expensive hobby. Many breeders do sell retired breeding cats at 3-4 years of age, but rather than abandoning them, they do that because it's not good for their health to breed them too many times. So after a few litters, they spay their females and find them a loving forever home. A good breeder will put as much care into that as they do into rehoming their kittens. Some keep their retired breeding cats, esp the first one, but it's not always possible to keep every one if you retire them at an age that is good for them.
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Thats exactly the point Susanne, they get cats to breed, sure they may love them as pets at first but when there is no money to be made they sell them on making that final wage from them. Now surely if they loved them as pets and a part of the family how could they sell them on?
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i have met a male who was neutered at 10 weeks, he was 16months when I last saw him and it hadn't affected his development. Here is their website, both were neutered at 10 weeks.
http://www.albertandflorence.com/
I would totally disagree with this as this isn't always the case. Kara was spayed at 5 months before we got her, her genitalia is under developed for her size and she also leaks constantly, I trust my vet and he puts this down to being too young when she was spayed. I didn't even realise she had a leakage problem only that she washes constantly down below and she is stained, we only found out the cause when she was in last year with her ears. The stain is from the urine burning her skin and she has had this since getting her, so I'm sorry but there are pros and cons to spaying and neutering early.
Welcome to Purrs MCAW, I was wondering when you were going to introduce yourself :welcome:
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This is a subject there will never be agreement on. I respect the opinions of those who are opposed to any breeding, but also ask them to understand and respect that not all breeders are these terrible people who don't care for their cats and treat them as breeding or profit making machines. Undoubtably some do, but the good ones do not. We can't call breeders good or bad, because there are people at both ends of the spectrum and a lot everywhere in between. I, personally, can't say that I agree or disagree with breeding because I don't believe it's all or nothing. I agree with some breeding but not with the majority of breeding that takes place.
edited to remove part of post
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CC, peds without papers aren't copycats, they are moggies.
Personally I would just say they are peds without papers, definitely not moggies. Abigail is a definite 100% persian, I don't have the papers for her but she is a persian, the same as FooFoo and Shah are 100% persian :Crazy: When I rehomed Vita who is a 100% Snow Marbled Bengal, again no papers but a definite Bengal, she needed a specific home and this had to be taken into account because of her breed. Certain breeds have specific needs and whether they have papers or not, those needs still need to be met and pedigree is pedigree, they don't go from pedigree to moggie overnight.
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It is beyond my comprehension why a rescue would release an entire animal to a new home ....
Possibly because most vets in the UK will not neuter/spay until kittens are 5 - 6 months old. Cats Protection volunteers have a duty to ensure kittens homed are neutered/spayed at the age our vets will do so. If an owner does not take the kitten to the vets then we can and in one case did take the kitten back. When kittens are homed a new owner has to sign a homing form which is a legal document and one of the conditions is that a kitten be neutered when they are 6 months old at the latest.
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Now surely if they loved them as pets and a part of the family how could they sell them on?
I agree with this comment 100%. Once they have out lived their usefulness in many, many cases they are a commoditythat is no longer wanted. I know no true cat lover could ever sell on or even give away their cat. (Unless of course there was a genuine health reason).
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This is a subject there will never be agreement on.
With that I do agree.
, but also ask them to understand and respect that not all breeders are these terrible people who don't care for their cats and treat them as breeding or profit making machines.
The sad thing is, I know loads of breeders and not one of them would admit they are in it for what they can make out of it, yet in reality the bottom line is they are and if they did not make out of it they would not breed, if there is a costly problem they are more worried about the cost and not the kitten/cats. I am sure if we are honest most of us have heard of supposedly reputable breeders would rather PTS a less than perfect cat/kitten.
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In answer to a point Ela made earlier in the thread about the number of pedigree cats ending up in rescue, that is purely down to people not doing enough research before acquiring a pedigree cat.
When we home check for our moggies we go through everything with the prospective owner as we have a responsibility to our little ones to get it right, surely breeders have a responsibility to ensure that prospective owners know what they are letting themselves in for.
A clued-up future pedigree cat slave goes to shows, looks at the cats, talks to the breeders and exhibitors, looks at their own lifestyle etc before deciding on whether the breed they've set their heart on is right for them - and if not, what are possible alternatives?
But how many are clued-up? I know of loads of people who have thought it a good way to make money and have never been to a cat/dog show in their life. I could take you to a farm now where the breed dogs are in small cages for most of their sad little lives. A certain rescue has been told loads of times but they don’t want to know.. In another home not from me are numerous breed cats in one small room. Someone else I know allows her dog to breed solely to pay for an annual holiday, I cannot tell you how mad she was when the little one needed a caesarean for a litter. These are only a very small % of the homes I know about within a small area. I would say the number of bad breeders far outweighs any that are truly in it for the genuine love of cats.
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I have a ' harsh ' attitude on this. I absolutely do not understand in any way at all how anyone who refers to themselves as a cat lover can ' order ' a cat to be born when there are so many beautiful cats in rescues ( that do not have no kill policys ) who will die simply because they are not the right flavour.
While I am absolutely not judging anyone on Purrs because I know how much we all absolutely adore our cats, I just don't understand it. It makes no sense to me. I find it appalling that breeders breed disability.
I do not care if X breed were to die out if it meant that all the moggies alive NOW got homes. It wouldn't bother me one bit. It's not like I am saying kill off X cat, just save the ones that are alive NOW.
Dogs I see differently, tho under the same mindset I find it equally appalling to breed when there are rescue dogs dying, I understand why someone would NEED as opposed to want a specific breed for a working task under very special circumstances.
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I tend to agree with you J and cannot imagine allowing myself to home a cat from anything other than a rescue but, having said that, some pedigrees seen on here simply brighten my life. I am a terrible ditherer.
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ok here goes -
I dont agree with breeding, whether it moggies or ped's
Why would you want to put your cat through pregnancy - giving birth - and then to top it all off the Mummy isnt allowed to keep her babies !!
I have seen Mummy Cats looking and crying for their babies when they have been taken away and anyone who says that cats dont have a maternal feeling are wrong!
And i also dont agree that there is no money to be earnt when its Ped's.
I am for early neutering, If the babies stay with Mum till 12wks (as they should) then they could do done before they leave. I know rescue places ask for all kittens to be done by the new owners at 6mths but how many actually get done ?
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I am not sure where the Manx fits in here but I refuse to call them moggies because of a lack of papers, most people know what a Manx looks like. I have four cats, three moggies and one Manx moggie. If it were not for breeding of some sort the Manx would not exist.
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If it were not for breeding of some sort the Manx would not exist.
With the Manx I fully understand, in fact we have never been asked to take in a Manx although we did have one in once a stray I think. Then again we may have been asked to bring her in. But still only one in over 18 yrs, where as Bengals Siamese and Persians we are being asked to bring in every week.
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I have a ' harsh ' attitude on this. I absolutely do not understand in any way at all how anyone who refers to themselves as a cat lover can ' order ' a cat to be born when there are so many beautiful cats in rescues ( that do not have no kill policys ) who will die simply because they are not the right flavour.
While I am absolutely not judging anyone on Purrs because I know how much we all absolutely adore our cats, I just don't understand it. It makes no sense to me. I find it appalling that breeders breed disability.
I do not care if X breed were to die out if it meant that all the moggies alive NOW got homes. It wouldn't bother me one bit. It's not like I am saying kill off X cat, just save the ones that are alive NOW.
Dogs I see differently, tho under the same mindset I find it equally appalling to breed when there are rescue dogs dying, I understand why someone would NEED as opposed to want a specific breed for a working task under very special circumstances.
100% agree. The RSPCA official figures for cats bought in to them last year was 57% PTS - I am sure the true figure is even higher. I also don't want to offend people but I know what I think.
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Well I have to say this is turning into an excellent debate full of information from experienced cat rescue folk and some with a good knowledge of breeding.
Susanne said reputable breeders do not make money out of cat breeding.
I do believe that there are an element where that is true but I wouldn't like to guess how many. I talk to breeders at shows and have seen both ends of the spectrum. As an aside, I was asked why I didn't show my cats at shows (NB: They are all moggies). I didn't have to think about it and replied because I love them too much to subject them to long trips and being kept in a small pen all day;besides they are all winners as far as I am concerned so they don't need judging.
Anyway, an example of profiteering is the new breed - The Toyger. Now let me first say that I simply cannot accept people wanting start a new breed. I have a simple rule - Don't mess with nature in this way; it is bigger and certainly more powerful than any of us.
The Toyger is said to be the brainchild of a US breeder (surprise! surprise!) called Judy Sugden. She spent 15 years cross breeding looking for some sort of perceived predetermined perfection. Up to October 2007 there were 3 UK 'breeders'. One UK breeder is reported to be selling them from between £550 to £1,100. A breeding quality cat can fetch £2,500. There is the anticipation that like the Bengal, it will become a celebrity cat and that will doubtless mean celebrity prices.
Susanne, I realise that this is not the established breeder end of the market. Many would probably share my view as they have standards. I would expect and hope that the governing bodies will not accept this breed because to do so would be to make somebody wealthy. It is difficult to see how the creation of this breed is not a simple money spinner.
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As Susanne said, not all breeders are bad, in it for the money etc. I have only had good experiences with the two breeders I have come into contact with, both have become my very good friends and have continued to show interest in the cats I have had from them, one of them over 10 years now. Both breeders have been doing so for 20 or more years, neither of them have ever sold on any of their stud cats or breeding queens.
The breeding queens are mostly retired at around 7 or 8 years old, neutered and go on to live as part of the family. They are not kept in pens, they are first and foremost, pets, living in the house with all the other cats and the family. They are only bred once or twice at most, a year. Neither of these breeders has got rich from breeding their cats by any means - because they've never sold on any of their cats once they've been retired, they have plenty of mouths still to feed! and they wouldnt have it any other way.
One of them retired from breeding 4 or 5 years ago now, all her stud cats and breeding girls were neutered and live the life of Riley as they always have!
I wouldnt have my lovely Gwyngala or Joe, Sam, Lucy and Ben if it wasnt for these two breeders.
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If it were not for breeding of some sort the Manx would not exist.
With the Manx I fully understand, in fact we have never been asked to take in a Manx although we did have one in once a stray I think. Then again we may have been asked to bring her in. But still only one in over 18 yrs, where as Bengals Siamese and Persians we are being asked to bring in every week.
Hi can I just make a comment on the Manx, I actually have a Manx who came through our rescue, we have had no end of problems with him!! he has had several operations with spinal problems, we love him to bits but I would definitely say breeding of the Manx is just breeding cats who may have several problems (not just spinal) I may be wrong but I'm sure they are no longer recognised by the governing body of the cat breeders
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Many years ago when I was on the Isle of Man I adopted a cat from their MSPCA, initially we were going to adopt an adult Manx but were told I have to tell you that many are dirty on their back end. So we adopted Tango a 'normal' adult cat and had her for over 16 years. A few years ago we went to a rescue in Santon on the Island and there I saw what we were told, many Manx cats in a terrible state.
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What was the matter with them?
I am aware that Manx syndrome exists but I have never had a problem with any of my Manx's and I am not aware of any problems at the present time with friends or neighbours cats.
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Can't really comment as I have two pedigree Bengal's. BUT when I see kittens and he/she will produce beautiful babies I do feel for the little one.
I would just have him / her as my babe (Op carried out).
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Money has to come in to it, even more so for dogs, the prices pups sell for are crazy. :Crazy:
Beanie, roger? :-: the toyger has come up before, have you seen any of these new cats? http://www.newbreedcats.com/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1 (http://www.newbreedcats.com/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1)
Some strange ones on that site :scared:
I dont know much about showing, but what are the prizes like for those really into the scene? Horse comps rack up some serious £££'s
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Yvonne, the Manx is a tricky one, as unless you have had them from a kitten, you have no way of proving it. Rolo looks like one, yet both vets he has seen say it has been amputated, despite it being so extreme, so he is down as a tailless cat, not a Manx, as we have no proof. Manx aren't widely bred in other countries due to issues - you can't breed Manx to Manx due to the gene that causes it, if you do, most of the kittens will die in the womb. If I remember rightly (can't be bothered to walk downstairs), it is a Spina Bifida type of gene, and the lack of tail can affect their bowels and bladders due to the muscles being in that area. It was however a natural mutation.
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I may be wrong but I'm sure they are no longer recognised by the governing body of the cat breeders
The Manx Cat is one of the oldest established pedigree breeds. It is fully recognised by all the major governing bodies of the Cat Fancy. The Cymric, a semi-longhaired version is recognised by most, but NOT by the GCCF. The current position of the GCCF on this matter is that if the Manx were a new breed, they would not regognise it and therefore it would not be eligible to show. They have a similar standpoint on the Scottish Fold.
The Manx gene, M, is a dominant mutation and because of the isolation of the Isle of Man from the mainland, most members of the indigenous cat population carry the gene. In its dominant homozygous form MM, the gene is lethal and the kittens die in utero. Cats we know as Manx are heterozygous carriers of the gene i.e they are Mm for the gene and carry only a single copy of the dominant gene. However, this does not guarantee total taillesness - the gene expresses itself to varying degrees. Cats with the recessive mm gene will have tails.
What the Manx gene does is fuse together the vertebrae from the pelvis rearwards as well as shortening the tail and or giving rise to a complete lack of the tail as would be required in the show quality Manx. This altered anatomy also accounts for the distinctive gait of the cat. Unfortunately, other issues arising from the M gene are spina bifida and malformation of the large intestine and anus - which is why Manx cats do have toileting issues.
Manx are difficult to breed because of the way the gene acts - you have to mate heterozygous Mm to heterozygous Mm or heterozygous to recessive mm in order to try and avoid the lethal gene. There are not that many breeders because of the this and as a result you don't see many Manx cats on the show bench.
However, just as an aside, the other reduced-tail breeds i.e. Japanese Bobtail are not related in any way genetically to the Manx.
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Hi Reynard,
Yes I fully understand what you are saying, I know there are different types of the Manx, some with a small stump of a tail and some without a tail which are usually the ones with most problems. We are not vets or breeders, just animal welfare volunteers, we are mearly trying to point out the problems that can be associated with the tailless Manx. People need to be aware of what they could be taking on when homing a Manx. When we get them through our rescue we are always very cautious as to whom we re home them to, we always tell any prospective owner the problems that MAY occur!
As I have already said my Manx who is obviously a throw back in a gene from somewhere (Mannie) has all the classic symptoms of a true Manx, Spina Bifida the congenital malformation of the spinal cord and vertebrae which is very common in the tailless Manx. Mannie's clinical signs include large hind legs, hopping, crouched pelvic limb gate, urinary incontinence and chronic constipation. This only started when he was around 4yrs old.
Mannie is not a pedigree, he is a cross breed (but as said all the symptoms of a true Manx) he was bought (not by us) from a local pet shop for £5, luckily he came into MCAW and I gave him a home. Looking after Mannie properly is a priority, his bottom needs cleaning daily plus because of the urinary dribbing he needs vaseline around his little bits to avoid his skin becoming sore through the urine burns. Mannie has also had problems with urinary crystals which resulted in surgery to help him pass the crystals easier. He is on a special diet for this problem which does help!
I love him to bits but there are alot of people who would not cope with the incontinence problems I'm forever chasing around with incontinence sheets! There is also the frequent vet bills that some people may not be able to afford then what would happen to the cat?
I'm just trying to say to anyone who owns or gets a kitten with no tail PLEASE, PLEASE GET IT NEUTERED!! We know of people local to our area who have them (hence the reason we end up with them!) they think it's a novelty to have a cat without a tail until the problems start!!
Before anyone asks, we would love to neuter the adults for them but unfortunately if they can sell the kittens for £5/£10 they will carry on!!
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I am not sure where the Manx fits in here but I refuse to call them moggies because of a lack of papers, most people know what a Manx looks like. I have four cats, three moggies and one Manx moggie. If it were not for breeding of some sort the Manx would not exist.
Hi Yvonne, my Mannie is a Manx moggie but if you saw him you would think he was a true Manx, has yours got the longer back (very powerful legs) looks like a Hare from behind hopping along? Mannie has all of the problems associated with a true Manx!! nightmare but I love him to bits!!
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Hi Milly's Mum,
Thanks.
I hadn't seen that link. I had assumed it had been raised before but I have been missing for a while. I'll have a good gander.
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Milly's Mum said
Beanie, roger?
I hadn't seen Roger on this thread unless he has a different handle. It did occur that you might think we are one and the same but I can confirm that we are different people. He's a Brighton fan ( established in an old thread) and I'm 100% Fulham ;)
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Hi Yvonne, my Mannie is a Manx moggie but if you saw him you would think he was a true Manx, has yours got the longer back (very powerful legs) looks like a Hare from behind hopping along? Mannie has all of the problems associated with a true Manx!! nightmare but I love him to bits!!
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Hi MCAW - would you like to let us know what your name is?
Sorry to hear about the problems that Mannie has but I believe that Manx syndrome appears before the age of four months, I think I read that your Mannie developed problems at four years.
My Homer is Manx, about as true as you can get, a Manx mother Roxy who lives a few doors away and is really beautiful and a Manx father Oscar. So far so good he appears to be in very good health, he is just coming up to one year. We have three Manx's at the stables all elderly and in good health for their years.
What is the prognosis for Mannie - can anything be done?
:luck: :ahh:
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Mannie is not a pedigree, he is a cross breed (but as said all the symptoms of a true Manx)
MCAW, because the Manx gene is dominant, a cat only needs one copy of the gene to have the full set of traits. So effectively he is as Manx as you can get. ;)
Bless him, he seems to have fallen on his paws with you. :Luv2:
The Manx gene, M, is one of a group of dominant traits where a cat needs only one copy of the gene to take on the characteristics. (Cat genetics is sooooooo fascinating :shy: ) Two other well-known dominant genes, none of whom are as problematic as the Manx gene and where you only need a single copy for a given trait are as follows:
A (agouti): the most common of all. A cat who is A- (either AA or Aa) will always be tabby.
W (dominant white): Cats who are W- will always be white as W masks all other colours. However, a cat that is W- and only carries one copy of the gene can have kittens of the colour(s) that the W gene is masking.
However, the majority of genes that provide the variations between the different breeds and also the different colours within the breeds are recessive, so both parents need to be carriers of the genes. Take blue cats as an example, to get blue kittens, either:
a) Both parents must be homozygous for blue (genes aa-dd) i.e. they are blue themselves
b) One parent must be blue (aa-dd) and one must carry blue (aa-Dd)
c) Or both must be aa-Dd i.e. both are black.
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Hi Yvonne, my Mannie is a Manx moggie but if you saw him you would think he was a true Manx, has yours got the longer back (very powerful legs) looks like a Hare from behind hopping along? Mannie has all of the problems associated with a true Manx!! nightmare but I love him to bits!!
Hi MCAW - would you like to let us know what your name is?
Hi Yvonne,
My name is Jo, when I say Mannie's problems started at 4yrs this was the incontinence and the chronic constipation, his problems with the crystals started when he was about 6yrs old (he is now 14) He was certainly well past his kittenhood when the problems started. He is a beautiful boy, he has a big round head, he is just like a teddy bear!
He has a wonderful life, he's got me to clean up for him! He is OK and as long as I keep up with him! I find it alot easier to keep him clean by trimming the fur around the anus, he just lies down and lets me do whatever I want!
Sorry to hear about the problems that Mannie has but I believe that Manx syndrome appears before the age of four months, I think I read that your Mannie developed problems at four years.
My Homer is Manx, about as true as you can get, a Manx mother Roxy who lives a few doors away and is really beautiful and a Manx father Oscar. So far so good he appears to be in very good health, he is just coming up to one year. We have three Manx's at the stables all elderly and in good health for their years.
What is the prognosis for Mannie - can anything be done?
:luck: :ahh:
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I dont know much about showing, but what are the prizes like for those really into the scene? Horse comps rack up some serious £££'s
If you win Best in Show then it's a trophy and bag of cat food in addition to the rosettes and certificate you get for winning your class and being nomintaed for BIS.