Purrs In Our Hearts - Cat Forum UK
Cat General => General Cat Chat => Topic started by: ccmacey on January 12, 2007, 17:35:20 PM
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Hi all, took Ollie to vets today, my little gingivitis baby. Talked about having his teeth out, vet said it would be no good as its the inside cheek thats affected most. I said about his depression and not interacting with the others much, vet said is he eating and drinking normally, I said yes. And then he went on to say if his quality of life deteriorates i should think about having him PTS. This isn't an option for me. Hes been tested for viruses and all came back clear.
This has been cut short as I just wrote a long post explaining everything and it was wiped.
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Poor lil Ollie, is it worth getting a second opinion or have you already done that?
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Yes I usually take him to the private vets just to get there opinion. As you know I take Ollie to the PDSA and it was a vet there that said that. Where as the private vets would remove his teeth. I wouldnt dream on having him PTS, only if I could clearly see that it was the right thing to do, I would have to do it. Im getting vey upset about this now, He will be 3 this year and ive been dreading the vet saying this to me for a couple of years.
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Which vet have you just seen? If it is the private one does that mean that PDSA and private one both agree that having teeth out wont help?
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Have you tried the Royal vetinary college hospital http://www.rvc.ac.uk/ they are supposed to be the dogs B....ks when it comes to vetinary care.
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No only the Pdsa say it wouldn't help. The last time I took Ollie to private was in Nov, and they said it might help then. They also say about alternative treatments like a sheep wormer, although its not proven to help. The PDSA arnt even willing to take swabs from his mouth and test them. I think they trying to save money. I thought vets were meant to help and give you every alternative to the best of there knowledge?
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As in what way Sam? I use the Pdsa wit Ollie cos his treatment is near £200 a month, well it was at a private vets anyway, you know how they overcharge!
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CC you didnt answer my question
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CC would your insurance not cover Ollies treatment at a private vet or does it not cover dental work? Im sure mine does if its associated with a disease. I had a friend who used the PDSA and then a private vet , but when she went back to pdsa was told the dog could no longer be treat there as she'd taken it to a private vet too. I wonder if they have different policies in different parts of the country.
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As in what way Sam? I use the Pdsa wit Ollie cos his treatment is near £200 a month, well it was at a private vets anyway, you know how they overcharge!
I'm not speaking from experience ... thankfully ... but I was under the impress that the RVC hosital is where the BBC recently filmed the series "supervets" and it seem to be the place where people with very poorly pets or pets with very "hard to treat" ailments went. I'm not sure if you have to be referred or not but I'm sure their website will give yu all the information. Of course I sure any work they do won't come cheap and I don't know if your insurance will cover it.
It seems strange to me that any vet would suggest PTS just for gingivitis :(
Sorry I've not been much help but it was just an idea and another avenue to explore really.
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I do agree, it is a very odd reason to suggest that course of action. One of my boys suffers from gingivitis from time to time, and no vet has ever suggested that to me!(Not even a PDSA vet!)
Is that the only health issue there is?
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Aww, I do hope something can be sorted for him, it is too young.
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my daughter uses the PDSA to treat her duffy she is about 13 years and has bad teeth and the vet there suggested that she have duffy pts as her teeth were so bad,so between a few of us family members we sent duffy to another (private vet) and low and behold duffy had 3 teeth out and a clean up at a cost of approx£120.
duffy at 13 has only been to a vet twice this time and when she was 6 months to be neutered she is a fit and well black and white which goes some way to bolster my theory that black and whites seem to be sturdier that other colours and breeds (she is a mog) as for PDSA vets as with other things in life everyone has differing opinions but it would be interesting reading their general policies on this sort of thing.
roger.
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No his insurance doesn't cover he already had it, he's had it from being a kitten, and I think it was maybe caused because of his poor start to life. Gingivitis is the only thing he's suffering from, apart from depression that it's also causing. He is fit and healthy and generally doing fine, just now and again it gets him down. The PDSA vet said its just a matter of controlling it with steroids and antibiotics. Only if his quality of life drastically declines, then i would have 2 think about THAT. But like I said this isn't an option for me and when the time comes to go elsewhere I will. I'm not letting him go just because they want to save money, it's ridiculous and after them suggesting that, I now know they arnt much help at all. I would like to know if there is someone higher at the PDSA that I could take this to, as I'm not satisfied with what my local Pdsa are telling me. After all I am entitled to Ollie's treatment so why wont they try more options and think about removing his teeth?
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if you think he's depressed etc have you tried feliway plug ins etc ??
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No havent tried them, what do they do? Are they alright to use when kids in the house?
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Feliway plug ins minic cat pheromens / hormes and help to relax cats ... the are odourless to people and have no affect on us. http://www.feliway.uk.com/feliway_uk.nsf/Page?OpenForm&DocID=7&POS=5&Key=null
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you might also try rescue remedy.
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http://www.phytopet.co.uk/products.aspx
These people might have something that aids healthy gums. (Bad gums are the main cause of gingivitis as far as I aware.)
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I was struck by what Roger (fuzziesdad) said - that was a lot of upset removed for just £120! Of course, I don't know your circumstances, cc, but would it be feasible to get the private vet to remove Ollie's offending teeth and, if it's too much all at once, either pay in instalments or get a loan of some sort?
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Christine, I'm on a low income as well and can completely sympathise with ccmacey.(Not that I'm saying you can't!) If the vets in her area are anything like the ones new me, they outrightly refuse to do a payment plan system. I can understand to an extent, I would imagine a fair amount of chancers say they'll pay and the ndon't, but it is frustrating if you're an honest person with every intention of paying and you're tarreed with the same brush as these ungrateful oiks!
Loans when you're on small amounts of money tend to make your finances spiral further out of control even faster from what I've seen. It really is a horrible situation to be in.
Ccmacey, have you tried calling the administration offices of the PDSA to enquire about your queries with regards to the PDSA vet?
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The private vet's that I use are very good, they know me quite well as at 1 point I was in there every week, they know my personal curcumstances and maybe they would let me do a payment plan, Its something I would have to find out. I'm just worried that if I do go to them and have his teeth out, maybe it wouldn't clear the problem and then I would still need the help of the PDSA. Which I'm unsure if they would take me back knowing Ive took Ollie to a private vet's. The PDSA keep saying he doesn't need his teeth out because it is more of the inside cheek that is affected. I will have to go and get another opinion this week.
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It's a horrid dilemma and I do sympathise with you :hug: As your private vet knows you well, I'd definitely go along and explain all your concerns to him / her. Perhaps you should initially ask for a quick chat with the vet on your own at the end of surgery? I did this a little while ago when I had a concern about someone else's cat and my vet and I had a good chat, obviously free of charge.
If you then go ahead with some treatment there, I do hope the PDSA wouldn't be sniffy about treating little Ollie in the future just because you acted on a second opinion. What do you think?
xC
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CC, the whole of his mouth will be inflamed from the bacteria in his gums. This PDSA vet sounds like he is cost cutting. A family friend has just had her cats teeth out. Its 4 years old i think and has suffered terribly with swelling and infection (its whole mouth would be puffy & nasty not just the gums) I think you should go to the private vet and ask for a payment plan, offer to leave back dated cheques with them and go for it!
If it doesnt solve it and his quality of life continues to be poor than you'll have none of the "what if i.." guilt.
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Hi I'm a bit confused here, what is actually wrong with Ollie? My friend's cat had bad gingivitis but she gives him Co-enzyme Q10 (you buy it for humans in capsules) it is okay for cats and she gives them the contents in their food when they need it. The ginigivitis cleared up remarkably quickly
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IT does sound like removing his teeth would help CC - I know you have said his teeth look fine, but there is obviously something wrong, and maybe it is the teeth that are affecting his cheek. I do think Christine's idea of speaking to the private vet is a good one - it can be done on a telephone consultation, doesn't have to involve an app. I would certainly explore all angles, and if they say it could help, then ask to speak to someone senior in PDSA and demand an explanation as to why a dental can't be done - you dont have to say you have spoken to another vet, just say you have been researching gingivitis, and this seems to be the treatment, so why can't it be done for your boy?
I am slightly astounded to read 2 stories in one thread of the PDSA recommending pts rather than a dental.
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Yep, I recently found out how the PDSA Petaid works, and it isn't at all as I thought it was. Basically, the vet gets an allocated amount for each PDSA patient per month - and it really isn't a lot. (£3-5 on average.)I thought it worked much like insurance; an amount was agreed on and the bill was sent to the PDSA.
Basically, from time to time a loss is made by the vet on these patients.(Although, I do have to point out, that with their customers that aren't on PDSA, I'm sure they MORE than break even!)
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I take Ollie to an actual PDSA hospital as there is 1 near where I live, well about 8 miles away so they say that is close enough so they wont do Ollie's treatment through a private vet's. I leave a donation every time I'm there which covers his medication as the cost of the tablets comes up to £4 something. They also charge a consultation fee (which you don't have to pay) but as my private vet's has open surgery, I wouldn't be paying for a consultation anyway. Ollie has had tests for viruses and all have came back clear, the vet said he doesn't have calici virus, just really bad gingivitis. I'm really stuck on what to do as I just keep getting the same old medication and crappy, careless advice from the PDSA. I don't even think they are as well qualified as the private vet's, and to suggest having him PTS has made me think even less of their veterinary skills.
Like I said all I'm worried about is, if removing his teeth doesn't clear his mouth and I have to go back to the PDSA, as someone has already mentioned they are funny about it and maybe they wouldn't take me back, In which case I will not be able to afford his treatment at a private vet's for the rest of his life. I would be more willing to do this if I knew some overall success rate.
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And about that jack, I'm now paying £5 a month for Ollie's medication at the PDSA, where I was paying £28 a week at the private vet's, so they well overcharge.
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Yep, they do! :scared:
Hope you figure out what to do soon. When one of my boys got gingivitis recently, he was given two injections(antibiotics and anti inflammatorys I think) and the problem cleared up. It cost £21 in total, so not too bad.
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they are funny about it and maybe they wouldn't take me back, In which case I will not be able to afford his treatment at a private vet's for the rest of his life.
If the removal of all his teeth didnt work then going back to your current course of treatment doesnt sound like a longterm option, if hes depressed and the antibiotics aren't helping.
Suggesting PTS at this stage tho is very wrong.
I would be more willing to do this if I knew some overall success rate.
I dont think you will find a study on this but of the cases i know it has basically cured the cat, other than the odd breakout when stressed.
I'm now paying £5 a month for Ollie's medication at the PDSA, where I was paying £28 a week at the private vet's, so they well overcharge.
Have you checked the price of his meds on VetUK & Bestpet? An option if you did need them again.
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Hope you figure out what to do soon. When one of my boys got gingivitis recently, he was given two injections(antibiotics and anti inflammatorys I think) and the problem cleared up. It cost £21 in total, so not too bad.
I wish it was that easy, Ollie has been suffering over 2 years now, Although the medicine did used to control it, it doesn't seem to be helping anymore.
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I recieved this email this morning-
Dear Miss Cairns
I am writing in reply to your email concerning the treatment of your cat at our Middlesbrough PetAid hospital.
I have drawn your concerns and query to the attention of the Senior Veterinary Surgeon at the hospital. His suggestion is that you book an appointment with him so that he can personally examine your cat, discuss your concerns and advise you about the treatment options PDSA can offer you.
I hope you will accept this as a suitable way to proceed as clearly we cannot offer definitive advice about a particular patient's treatment by email.
Im going to phone Monday to make an appointment with him, Hopefully he will be able to give the go ahead for Ollie's teeth removal. If not Im getting the hell out of there and taking him to a proper vet's!
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CC, what medicines is he currently on?
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He gets Prednisolone steroid tablets 5mg every night and a penicillin based antibiotic, Synolox or Amoxcillin which vary in dose depending on how bad his mouth is. He's been on the steroids for 2 years, and the antibiotics used to work but they arnt helping any more, He's usually on antibiotics 2 weeks out of 4. This has been going on for nearly 2 years. I have recently noticed the redness all around his gum line so it must be affecting his teeth, I just don't know if his teeth are the cause?
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Its good to hear they aren't ignoring you, i hope the senior vet gives the go ahead.
The teeth normally are the problem, this isnt a very technical explanation, but... the bacteria use the teeth as means of entering the gums.
A vets site says:
Where the immune system is hypersensitive to bacteria, the gingivitis can be controlled by reducing plaque bacteria numbers on teeth either by using a dry diet that reduces plaque or by using antibiotics to reduce plaque bacteria number. Alternatively, tooth extraction would not enable plaque bacteria to gain a foothold in the mouth.
Last sentence of this link is With extraction of the teeth the prognosis is good to excellent
http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&A=223&S=2 (http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&A=223&S=2)
Good luck with the senior
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Im going to phone Monday to make an appointment with him, Hopefully he will be able to give the go ahead for Ollie's teeth removal. If not Im getting the hell out of there and taking him to a proper vet's!
A good result so far, CC, and that sounds like a plan. :Luv:
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Thasts good CC, hope this guy is sensible and knows what hes doing.......loads of luck ;D
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Fingers crossed you get a good result from this vet.
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I phoned the vet's this morning and I was speaking to the receptionist, she was asking me what was wrong with Ollie, and then she said I think your going to be pleased with what the vet is going to say. I think they have had a kick up the bum by someone higher. So I have an appointment on Wed afternoon, Ill see what happens then. If the vet say's they are going to take his teeth out, I'm going to also take Ollie to a private vets just to make sure it is what he needs. So fingers crossed for Wednesday. ;D
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I'm getting really nervous for tomorrow and also starting to feel a little guilty for putting him through an op. If thats whats going to happen? How long does it take for a cat to recover after an op like this? How will he eat his food???
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You will be amazed how quickly they recover ;D he will prob need some meds as well but will prob start eating as soon as he has stopped feeling woozy from anesthetic. They tend to prefer biscuits cos soft food gets into the wounds but something bland like boiled fish or chicken may slip down.
I wish Ollie all the very best for tomorrow and hope that this will be the cure for all his problems :hug: :hug: :hug:to you both
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You shouldnt feel guilty, its neccessary to stop any longterm suffering. He cant continue as he is and he should get a new lease of life from this.
He'l probably come home with metacam and antirobe and lots of tins of a/d which is a very smooth food, high in fat and when mixed with warm water irresistible!
The toothless cats i know still eat dry food, they just swallow them!
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Blip had three teeth out, just over a year ago (including one upper canine), and demolished the tuna in springwater I gave her as soon as she came home the same evening. Our vet prescribed Metacam to ease the pain - five or six days' worth, and I was glad of it. I'd insist on it again if we had to have a similar procedure in the future.
I've learned that our domestic cats can eat any of the food we give them, even if they have no teeth left at all, so you need have no worries on that score.
And don't feel guilty - none of us likes having surgical procedures but they prevent illness and suffering.
Chin up - let us know how it goes tomorrow :hug:
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Hope everything goes well tomorrow for Ollie, hopefully this will be the end of his problems ;D
:hug: :hug: to you
Sonya
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Good Luck, Ollie. :)
Keep us updated, CC!
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Thanks all, will let ya's know how I get on when we get back. :thanks:
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Fingers crossed, and as the others have said, you dont have to worry about him eating food if they do remove all his teeth. Ginger suffered with dental probs, and it was amazing watching the difference between how he ate before and after - he was the kind of cat who would ignore the nice pate food I had bought specially in favour of Snowy's biscuits, and he would sulk if he didnt get some biscuits every day!! He could also eat raw meat, I just had to make sure it was in small enough pieces for him. He will probably be a happier cat, but you might have to help him with grooming more, as he wont have the teeth to get knots out. Good luck!!
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I'll be crossing fingers too. One of my friends' cats, Snagglepuss (the one with colitis), has only one canine left and had a few molars removed. Other than the fact that she licks her lips lots to try and get them over her remaining fang, she's a much happier cat. She's still got just enough teeth to crunch biscuits, and she's on squidgy food as well which she's always loved.
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We had a cat that lived across the road from us where we used to live, a gnarly old tom called Pushkin that was about a hundred and eleventy years old. He had a couple of teeth left, but started to loose weight. His family took him to the vet, and he had to have his teeth removed. After that, he gained all of the weight back and a bit more besides - having no gnashers didn't stop him at all.
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Went to the vet's today and left a little confused. The vet said that they wouldn't do a full dental and remove all his teeth as it is too costly and also takes a lot of time! He said he has consulted other vets on what they are going to offer me. And the offer is.... to file his teeth down to below the gum and leave the roots in. He said this could either help or it wont help, and he could go off his food and then die! But he said he is willing to try this to see what the outcome is, Obviously him saying that is making me think it hasn't been done very many times. He give me 2 weeks course of antibiotics so I have got that time to have a think about it. How do I know what is the right decision, I'm not a vet! So now I'm even more confused and really haven't got a clue as what to do. I'm not letting them use Ollie as an experiment! If I could get more info on this procedure maybe I would feel better about making a decision. Head up arse once again!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Flipping 'eck CC i would be confused too !!
Can you get a second opinion ?
I dont like the bit about "He said this could either help or it wont help, and he could go off his food and then die! But he said he is willing to try this to see what the outcome is,"
Would removing all his teeth solve his problem though ?
just wondered as i didnt like the reason for not going for this option "The vet said that they wouldn't do a full dental and remove all his teeth as it is too costly and also takes a lot of time!"
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My own instinct would be to get this checked by a private vet, where cost is not an issue (well, not that way round, anyway :(). I know from experience that teeth removal is not really that costly - could family and friends rally round if the immediate outlay is a bit too much?
:hug:
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The vet said going private would cost somewhere in the region of......... £500. So if it really is that much, no that is not an option. A couple of hundred maybe. I wouldn't put it on my family, they wouldn't do that to me.
Thats the point, I really don't know if taking his teeth out would cure him, and of course he's been suffering for a while so that is the outcome I want for him. And I also don't know of any other options there is as to medicines and herbal remedies. Like I say I'm not a vet and I feel like the vet is looking at me for answers. :-:
Michelle I been cheeky and sent you PM. Sorry lovey. :)
Confusion set in when he kept saying loads of long unpronounceable words (they were to me anyway!) and loads of vet speak!
Thank Tan for spell check. HAHA
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My instinct is to not go with this, cos logic says this will not work cos the teeth will still be there and I think this will cause him a lot of pain and he will stop eating.
I think you need go to a proper vet and get poor Ollie sorted, if this is PDSA kind of help then me thinks harshly that it is animal abuse! They have already made Ollie suffer for a long time, pumped him full of steroids and antibiotics and refused apparently on cost grounds to give him proper treatment and told you a load of garbage.
Sorry but this has made me very angry and poor Ollie is suffering because of this.
Just reread your post, do not go with this cos those teeth will be breaking the surface of the gum all the time when he tries to eat and he is gonna end up in so much pain and get infections. I do not see how this will be cheaper and UMMMMMMMMMMMMMM quicker!! than removing his teeth, I think they are incompitent >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
How would they do this, without anisthetic or what....................geezzzzzzzzzzzzz I am just so angry.................maybe one of the vet nurses can comment on this procedure.
Getting of this thread before I burst a blood vessel.
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Hi CC,
Replying to your PM here as its easier
Have a look a these
http://www.provet.co.uk/Petfacts/healthtips/gingivitiscats.htm
http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?articleid=368
Have had a quick read of many articles and they ALL say remove teeth !
I gotta agree with Gill, whoever you have seen has not given you the best advice just the cheepest !
Get some more advice from other vets - maybe there might be a vet that is either cheaper or who may allow you to pay a large down payment (you said you could do £200) and then the rest in installments.
Other than that , if you are using PDSA scream up a stink and say they are not doing the right thing for your cat, make a fuss
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Sorry Gill, I hope you arnt on any heart medication. LOL.
Yes I know this option seems very harsh, and will probably cause unnecessary pain, therefore adding to his suffering.
I also keep thinking because they have previously suggested PTS that they are going to kill him during the op and just say he didn't make it through. I'm so worried I just want to do whats best and end his suffering. I would never have him PTS though.
Didn't know there were any vet nurses on here. If there are and have knowledge of this situation please help me, Me and little Ollie in dire strates!
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Yes Michelle I did that today and was reminded that they are a charity. I told him Id been looking on the net and most of the things I had read said take the teeth out. He said yes but they all suggest different success rates, or something like that! Basically he has said take the cheepest option, we don't know what its going to do for your cat but thats the options take or leave. So NO thank you MR call yourself a vet man! You can take your ungenerous and can I also mention unkind offer and stick it sideways! I'm not going to cause little bong bong any more pain than he has. I'm just going to have to keep on with the medicines till I save up and have it done. At a propper vets of course, and to think of all the other people going in there and they think the vet is giving them the only options, poor souls!
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Dont worry bout me I OK ;D Just worry about poor Ollie, which I know you are.
I think you gotta bite the bullet and get him to a proper vet, I do not think what PDSA are suggesting is right. The longer you delay the more Ollie suffers and I know this thread has ben running for ages.
I am sorry and dont mean this in a bad way but you have been asking for advice for a long time and always peeps have said they dont think PDSA is doing right and there comes a point where you have to stop keep going back for yet more daft opinions from them. You know that what they are giving to Ollie isnt working and now they are suggesting something so terrible instead of giving him the treatment he needs.
It just makes me so very sad.
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Yeah I know, Ollie is fine in himself just a little quiet at times, don't know wether thats because the others are boisterous? I was using a private vet's with Ollie to start and then had a baby a few months later. Thats when money became an issue, with his treatment coming to nearly £200 a month.
I know you are right and I'm not going to make him suffer, I will phone the P vets and ask if we could work out a payment plan. Don't know if they would do this though because when I had a cat cremated they said I could pay in installments, thats when I was balling my eyes out, and when I had calmed down a couple of weeks later they asked for the money in full which was over £200.
ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGH.
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Not good but I would go for it anyway, try and get thenm to accept post dated cheques, if that will work for you.
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I have tried that 1 before and they wont take them. Im just gonna have to save up. I noticed someone mentioned that they payed £120, I will phone vets and find out true cost. If that's the case it shoudnt take too long.
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That sounds like a good idea ;D
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CC, i`m a vet nurse and i don`t like to bad mouth people`s vets but this sounds very bad. I know from helping vets when they do dentals that sometimes cats can have retained roots if a tooth has broken off and they always remove this as they say it must be very painful. It must be as it is exposing the nerves of the tooth and i can imagine how painful that must be! So if a vet is saying that they are going to file all of his teeth down to the root i would be very concerned. Also as you`ve already mentioned, £500 sounds a lot even to have all his teeth out. Where i work it is usually £100 approx if the cat has had maybe 1 or 2 teeth out and the rest descaled and polished. If more teeth are removed it ranges from about £120-£200 which would include post op treatment as well including the check ups a few days later. I think you are doing the right thing by phoning a few different vets to find out how much they would charge.
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our vet charges £89 for individual cremation so at £200 your vet does sound a bit expensive
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I am utterly gobsmacked at the PDSA's response - trying something like that just isn't an option unless they can guarantee it will work!! Up to £500 seems incredibly excessive for a dental though, I have never paid that much, but the most out in one go was 6. Maybe someone on here can suggest a vet that would do a good job for not as much money? I think you should ring the private vet and get a quote.
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Morning CC,
I am going to ring the 2 vets i use and find out a price for you. What area do you live in ?
Question for the VN's
Would they take all the teeth out in one go - or in a couple of Op's ??
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I have just remembered something !
We had a cat come in the cattery that had a problem just like this -
Right cant remember all the medical terms but basically his gums were allergic to his teeth (?!) , we had to syringe a solution into his mouth daily (one squirt each side) - his owners said that if this didn't work he would have all his teeth removed (He did end up having this done)
Does this sound like what Ollie has ?? (Vn's ???)
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No its his immune system attacking his teeth, its playsmic gingervitus or something like that, it was on 1 of those pages you found last night. The £200 for the cremation also included some medicines. Yes it is very barbaric and im not going for that, what standard of training do these PDSA vets have, they seem to know nothing a private vet would.
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Have you spoken to any Vets yet and got some quotes ??
What about the PV you started off using , would they not be able to sort something out for the Op ?
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CC, i have found a fantastic link that describes the condition you have mentioned. This lady really knows her stuff. What tests has the vet done to come to the diagnosis that they have?
http://www.dr-addie.com/stomatitis.html
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Just had a look at that link and you need to scroll down it cos the click links dont work.
However what is really disturbing is that PDSA have been giving Ollie steroids and antibiotics, and I may be wrong but the antibiotic not recommended looks familiar. That site says NO STEROIDS in big red letters.
As everyone has said on here, the main recommendation is for all teeth including roots to be removed, which PDSA have told CC they would not do.
I remain horrified by what PDSA have done and have recommended.
There is on there a recommendation of food which possible combined with other treatment may help but what damage will have been done by the steroids I wonder.
My brothers Maine Coone had Calichi and very bad gingervitus and his vet also recommended streroids for the rest of his life or removal of all teeth, my brother who works in NHS opted for the latter cos he was not happy about the steroid use long term and what a right decision he made!
If you could get this info Amanda why havent PDSA, are they just lazy or totally incompitent? I will put this link in our links section, thanks very much.
Where are you CC, did you speak to other vets?
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Hi all, yes I'm horrified at what the pdsa have suggested, its barbaric and i don't see how that would help at all, probably kill him. I told you i think they are trying to kill him, what could i say if he didn't make it through the op? Well he is not having it. Been busy so going to phone the PV later this afternoon.
About the tests- I had Ollie tested for FIV/FELV at PV before I started using the PDSA, which is strange as the pdsa don't seem to want to do anymore tests to see if anything else has developed, they just go off the results from them tests early 2005, They are absolute :censored:.
Thats my point about the medication, I'm just going along with what the vet says cos obviously he should know what he's talking about. :-:
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Just phoned the PV, they said £45 for a scale & polish, and tooth extraction from £90 onward. They couldn't give me an inclusive price as she said it goes by the time it takes to do. So therefore it could amount to hundreds. She also said I would have to make sure that if he still needed treatment that the pdsa would take me back as I would be left with the cost for the rest of his life. She said she has had people come to them from the pdsa and because they have went to a PV the pdsa has refused to take them back on because of this. She also said they would never use the filing of the teeth as an option, she doesn't think this would save time.
So I'm left with 3 choices
Taking him to a PV and having his teeth out and probably get threw out of the PDSA, which would be very costly and I wouldn't be able to afford lifelong medication from the PV. As we all know how much they over charge!
Doing what the PDSA have suggested, filing his teeth and leaving the roots in. Which for me isn't really an option I would just like to know what you all think.
Or just carry on as we are now. I know this isn't really an option either, but I don't want to put him through anymore pain than I have to.
Does anyone who has had this problem with their cats know of a herbal treatment that would at least ease the soreness and take the redness away?
And I have just thought, seem so it is his immune system attacking the cells in his mouth, that wont stop because of a few teeth out, would it?
Boggled once again. :-:
Thanks for helping me with this peeps. :)
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Hmm - they shoudl be able to give you a rough estimate to take all the teeth out, they only dont normally know in case they need to take more out. Does he have any other meds, as if not, he may not need lifelong meds, or you may be able to get htem online cheaper. I would have thought that if you take the teeth out, there isnt' a lot for the immune system to attack, but dont know enough about that kind of gingivitis. If I get chance later, I will post it on the other cat forum I use, and see what peoplet hink
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Thanks Des.
Its more of the gums and the inside cheek thats red and inflamed, and they will bleed easily. His teeth are fine, so maybe taking them out wouldn't help? I'm fed up now and really cant make a decision for the best. I wish the vets would tell me plain and simple, look this is what were going to do and this is what will happen, but obviously they cant as they don't know themselves.
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They said as his teeth are in good condition it will be harder to take them out, it would be easier if they were rotting. He's on steroids and anti b's at the moment.
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The teeth allow the bacteria to enter his gums, therefore removing the teeth seals up the 'entry point'. The immune system reacts to the plaque on the tooth, so again without the tooth being there it cant react to it.
The cats i know who have had a complete extraction have no longterm meds, but you really need to think about your next move. The PDSA option is a no go and you cant afford to go private so as much as you'll hate me for saying this you may need to think about rehoming him to somebody who has the funding to sort him out properly. A life on steroids will only turn into a problematic one and they aren't helping to control his condition at the moment.
Its a tough call but he needs to be under the care of a vet who isnt counting pennies.
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I dont think the last two options are any good, its so sad you cant afford to see a real specialist in this but if you cant get the teeth out then you may have to continue as you are. Filing the teeth down is absolutely not an option.
What worries me is the steroid and antibiotic treatment cos if you read the link, steroids should not be used.
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Gill, his current course of action isnt working, 2 years of antibiotics & preds and his mouth is getting worse and he's mildly depressed. Then the PDSA will just go oh dear, lets bung him on some Diazepam, instead of doing something now which will give him 10+ years of happy life.
For such a young cat this op would give him back quality of life.
The PDSAs response to this has really angered me. A friend of mine took in a stray, and because of his history they wouldnt vaccinate him without snap testing first. As if he had fiv he wouldnt be "worth it". They are starting to smell like the RSPCA.
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i know milly but cc cant afford vet bill to get ollie better care. i thought pdsa were a respnsible group but it does not seem to be the case.
anymore.
they have treated ollie wrong from the start and it looks like they are just working on reduced costs now without giving prper care >:(
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CC - Go to the papers !!!
Have them run a story about Ollie and the terrible choice you are being given because you cant afford the Op.
PDSA wont want the bad press and you might get a kind Vet offer to do the Op for nothing or cheap !
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Thats why i suggested rehoming, in the best interests of the cat, he needs action and he wont get it if cc cant find a way to fund him from her own pocket.
If it were my cat i would try what Michelle has suggested about the papers and see if it could be wangled that way but if not then i would have no choice but to find him a new home. Better that than pts.
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Sorry Milly missed your first post about rehoming.
Yes if it goes to the papers then it should also be made clear that this cat needs to see a specialist in the field in order to get the right treatment.
The probs about rehoming that it would need a very rich benefactor cos insurance is out of the question, unless somebody like CP would take him in and pay for the right treatment before rehoming him.
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CP or an independant rescue would possibly take him on and sort him.
A full extraction isnt going to cost a mega amount so you wouldnt need to be rich to fund him, i think £300-£400 would more than cover it, and living in Essex the vet bills aren't the cheapest.
Once removed the big costs are over.
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The probs about rehoming that it would need a very rich benefactor cos insurance is out of the question, unless somebody like CP would take him in and pay for the right treatment before rehoming him.
Surely it is just the pre-existing condition that would not be covered and the op should solve that?
Doing what the PDSA have suggested, filing his teeth and leaving the roots in. Which for me isn't really an option I would just like to know what you all think. Or just carry on as we are now. I know this isn't really an option either, but I don't want to put him through anymore pain than I have to.
As CC says, these aren't options. So I have to agree with Milly's Mum, CC - unless you can raise the funds for private veterinary treatment and then get Ollie insured...
:hug:
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CC - Go to the papers !!!
Have them run a story about Ollie and the terrible choice you are being given because you cant afford the Op.
PDSA wont want the bad press and you might get a kind Vet offer to do the Op for nothing or cheap !
Just Bumping this again because the more i think about it i think it could have a good out come
After all
PDSA offer is not an option
PV is not an option
Rehoming him is not an option
At end of the day you have nothing to loose by trying this !
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Surely it is just the pre-existing condition that would not be covered and the op should solve that?
Any future oral things will be blamed on it, they would wiggle out of paying. I read the case of a lady whose cat was diagnosed with CRF but her insurance wouldnt pay because the cat had a UTI 6 years previous and they claimed that had caused kidney damage. Which is possible if they had a serious blockage/infection but this cat had had a bout of cystitis! :Crazy:
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Any future oral things will be blamed on it, they would wiggle out of paying.
You are right, I'm sure they'd try, Milly's Mum. But, even if they got away with that, at least everything else would be covered?
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The papers may work, but you mustn't name and shame or you may get your backside sued!
If it doesnt work then maybe a small loan could be sorted out.
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at least everything else would be covered?
Yes it would, and i agree to insure for any other future probs. I didnt want CC to think she could insure for the future care of his mouth.
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I`d be a bit worried about the diagnosis they have made based on just the FIV/FeLV tests as the link suggests further biopsies are needed to determine that it is actually an immune mediated disease. I still think that by the sounds of it the teeth do really need to come out but any treatment after this will depend on what is actually wrong in the first place. If it is feline chronic lymphocytic plasmacytic gingivitis then the Interferon treatment is meant to be very successful but i guess this will be adding to the costs. Also, has the little one been swabbed for Calici virus?
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Thanks guys. If I did get Ollie insured it would not cover his treatment as it is an existing one. The reason I'm asking for help is that I don't want to loose him, so what would be the point in rehoming him, as this to me would be him gone from my life and I cant do that! I know I cant at the moment afford his expensive treatment but it doesn't mean that I'm just going to pass the problem on to someone else. The PDSA haven't done any tests they are just going off the tests he had done at the PV, I think, when I go for an appointment they just look at the cat give me some tablets and say see you in a month, When I try to ask questions they just say they don't know! Questions about other treatments that is. And I don't think going to the papers would help, another reason for throwing me out, as I already think they are peed off at me for going to someone higher.
Amanda what is that Interferon treatment? Yes I think that is the gingivitis he has.
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Found this on the net- does anyone know what this treatment is?
Chronic gingivostomatitis is a common debilitating disease in cats, which is often refractory to medical and surgical treatment. An eight-year-old, neutered female domestic shorthair cat with a history of gingivitis was presented with chronic gingivostomatitis. Initial treatment by extraction of all premolars and molars was unsuccessful. However, the condition resolved within six weeks of treatment with feline recombinant interferon omega (Virbagen; Virbac).
This is an extract from a vet page.
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It is very important that the entire tooth be removed, so careful extraction is
necessary. If a portion of the root is left behind in cats with chronic
gingivostomatitis, there is often a continued reaction at the site that the
root is retained.
And the vet is suggesting to leave the roots in!
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does anyone know what this treatment is?
interferon omega (Virbagen; Virbac).
Its the same as what Amanda has suggested, although it is expensive, around £100 vial. Its injected into the gums.
Theres a post about it here: http://www.chaptanservices.com/purrs/index.php?topic=1486.0 (http://www.chaptanservices.com/purrs/index.php?topic=1486.0)
CC, i know you dont want to lose him but the only help we can offer is get him treated by a private vet who isnt cutting corners. It sounds like he needs some proper tests run, and quickly as his condition is deteriorating.
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Michelle I just sent pm, dont know if you got it? comps doing funny things! Cleveland is where I am. Thanks.
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Yes received and replied xx
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CC, i really would suggest that somehow you get a vet to do the relevant tests - whether that be a gum biopsy, or swab him for calici etc before deciding what treatment to go with. The reason is that the treatment for chronic gingivitis would be steroids and antibiotics but usually if it was this then the treatment would show a big improvement in the gums. We had a cat at work on Friday that had had sever gingivitis and a week of steroids/ab`s has really helped. If it turns out to be feline chronic lymphocytic plasmacytic gingivitis then as the article says the treatment needed is very different as it is an immune condition.
I`ll post a couple of links about interferon but for the actual interferon website you might not be able to access it all as you need to be a vet/nurse. Interferon is meant to be very successful at treating this but as Milly`s mum has suggested it can be quite expensive. It all depends how much the vet needs to use and how often. I think you`d really want to be sure that this is what he has before using the interferon treatment. You could get either the private vet or the PDSA to phone Diane Addie if you wanted further information. As far as i know she is still based at the University of Glasgow and i know other vets that have spoken to her directly about things in the past.
Here is the link for the Interferon site http://www.virbagenomega.com/
And here is a link to a site where vets that have used interferon to treat various conditions have posted comments on the outcomes. Also, i found it interesting that when some vets used it for FIP it seems to have worked wonders.
http://vetinterferon.nexenservices.com/reports.php?site=interferon&lang=eng
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Also, i found it interesting that when some vets used it for FIP it seems to have worked wonders.
Going to read that now !
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having just been directed to this link i have scanned through many of the posts..phew !!
i was going to say it sounded like a stomatitis aswell as gingivitus but then read it was LOL....ive got quite a few points to make so bare with me.
1) re the pdsa's ... this is a charity and didnt use to be goverment funded (not sure on current info) and they are there to provide the same level of veterinary care as private vets altho cost restraints have to be considered and they do not always have access to the more expensive drugs...but some had advised "go to a real vet" etc..make no doubt there is no difference to pdsa vets as to private ones and lots if not most will have worked in both. Also the pdsa is there for peeps to FALL BACK ON when they are having financial difficultys and cannot afford private vet care, they should not be seen as a right of passage. (believe me having emptyed their donation box in practice its soul destroying to see the junk including buttons etc that peeps put in the donation envelopes, however this paying cheaper prices is new to me as a couple of years ago you didnt pay anything so obviously there has been a change in atleast some centres)
2) I would have gone with getting atleast these cheek teeth removed. it is much more difficult to remove healthy teeth and there fore would be a more difficult procedure, very often due to the fragiliy of feline teeth the roots will often snap as they are being removed even under the hands of the most careful and competant vet or vet nurse (amanda why did you mention helping the vets or watching them ?? do you not carry out these procedures yourself, are you not qualified/does you boss not let you carry out schedule 3 etc) If it was me about to carry out that dental i would be saying " i will endevour to remove the whole tooth inc roots however there is a risk that this may not be possible and in that case we will nibble the root down to BELOW gum level" ... it is fairly well known that roots left in cats cause far far less problems than roots left in dogs and esp humans, providing they are taken to below gum line and gum then stitched up. (that doesnt mean the roots WILL NOT cause future trouble but often they dont)
3) I would be quite concerned that ollie hasnt been on the best antibiotics for this, i mentioned to cc earlier today about antirobe, i'd have thought a double dose for extended length of time would be appropriate and atleast "worth a bash"
4) has any non steriodal anti inflammatories been given ? i would have thought that might also be worth a try.
5) i agree with amanda that swabbing etc would seem non invasive and appropriate and surely not too expensive..i cant see why there would be any constraints on the pdsa to do that.
5) i am unclear as to virus tests that have been done ? has ollie been tested for fiv and felv and were these tests virus isolation ??
6) i have already mentioned today re the steriods so dont need to go over that again but really think dosage and dosing days needs to be looked at.
7) i think the interferon sounds like a hopeful remedy..could this be discussed further and funds found ? sorry i dont know how much it is etc but perhaps teresa or someone could help more there as she's had hands on experience.
6) my very first port of call would be to get full set of bloods done to make sure everything is ok after the dosage and length of times he's been on the steriods esp given thats hes permanently cold.
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Interferons are chemicals produced by the body in response to a viral attack. They were discovered in the 50's.
3 types in humans. Gamma, alpha and beta interferon.
gamma interferon used to be used to treat MS but was found to exacerbate the condition. Beta interferon is now considered to help in ms relapses during the first phase of the illness. It is not a cure. I dont know how this would work in this condition but guess it would aid in maintaining the viral load to a low level to reduce symptoms. I feel it isnt a cure.
Alpha and beta interferon as far as I know work opposite gamma interferon. They antagonise each other.
Main syptoms in human use include flu like symptoms, but it can cause problems with blood count and liver function. In humans, regular blood tests are neccesary to monitor this.
I hope this helps
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I have only just caught up with this thread, I am astounded with the quote of £500 for a full dental. I have had loads of cats needing this, (fangs only left) and never paid any where near £200 let alone £500.
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CC I can really sympathise with you here. I have a cat here at the moment, Kay-Cee, who is going through similar problems, will be posting later when I have time.
I think you need to ask the Vets, be it PDSA or Private, to do more blood tests and test for calici etc. This sounds like more than gingivitis, and stomatitis does spring to mind.
Keep strong for Ollie. Sending lots of :hug: :hug: to both of you :hug:.
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There is another thread in Health & Behaviour - Ollie had all his teeth out a while ago and the last we heard, he is running about and on the mend :Luv2: - Hopefully there will be another update soon ;D
http://www.purrsinourhearts.co.uk/index.php?topic=11363.0
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Thanks Mark.
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Some brief info on Interferon as I used it for years to prevent eye infections in Swampcat (alpha interferon). Virbagen comes in eye drops too and my SA vet thought they work better than the injections, which are prohibitively expensive and often unsuccessful. A short treatment shouldn't affect the liver, but chronic treatment might, so think it's normal to do blood tests too. It's pretty strong stuff. In SA they use it a lot (or did) but not Virbagen, rather the human Interferon A - a spin off from all the human AIDS research into boosting immune systems. Has to be kept in the fridge and has a limited shelf life even then. If your vet wants you to try that, I'd ask about 1 lots of drops and see how it goes?
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Two of my boys have suffered with severe gum problems since they began teething and nothing seemed to help. The whole of the gums were bright red and very inflamed.
They boys were tested for FIV, Felv, FCov all came back negative but we got a positive on Calicivirus.
Last Friday I had the boys neutered and at the same time they both received a one off injection of interferon into their gums,within 48 hours I could see improvement and both boys appear to improve daily.
Think it may be worth getting tests done first so you know what you are dealing with and then discussing treatment options when results are back.
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Wow how long was this thread started
No worries any more, Ollie had his teeth out 2 weeks ago and he's doing fine. He has no problem eating either and looks like he's putting on weight.
Yes £500 was what I was told it would be from the other vets, when in reality it cost me £189.
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Thats great news