nightmare with Hills over new L/D canned food

[Desley (booktigger)]

Didn't get chance to get to the post office today, was waiting for the vet to ring. Will take them to work with me on Mon though, and get them sent. It might be worth ringing RC rather than go on their website. The RC Renal with beef  is low phosphorus, restricted high quality protein. Does say you need vets opinion before feeding for more than 6 months. Vits are D & E, copper is 3.00mg/kg - anything else you want? I will leave the box by the comp in case. Phone number is 0800 717 800 - what I have is actually manufactured for the EU and imported in.

[fluffybunny]

There is some info on the US site, not sure if it's going to be the same for the UK products but it will be similar I guess (although this refers to 'canned' whereas mine are sachet in gravy and a foil tray pate type).  The UK royal canin site only seems to list the 'normal' foods and not the veterinary diets.

http://www.walthamusa.com/Learning%20Center/RD30-canned.html

Not sure if they'd be appropriate for your use, but 'll happily send you a couple of samples if you would like - send me a pm with your details.

[swampmaxmum]

Hi everyone. Swampy's having a good day so far - on his old food. Thanks for the help! My vet isn't sure about what to give him as an alternative as he accepts that he's doing really well on the old l/d. He's a sole practioner and busy and hasn't really got around to it yet. We've tried a few things. He thinks RC must do a wet food that may work but so far it's been delegated to me. His own cat isn't ill but vomits everything but i/d so he suggested that as a fallback.  It doesn't have the nutrients liver patients need though.

We see him doing so well on the old food, it just makes me very angry and he can understand that. When Swampy gets really bad, it will be question of eating whatever, but right now his life and quality of life would be prolonged by the right food.

Which is the exact link for the RC Sensitive - does it have any vitamins (like K) in it and taurine and copper please? RC's website is very disappointing.

[Desley (booktigger)]

Will try and get the stuff sent for you today - I think it may be in gravy though. The i/d is, but that is chicken flavour, think the RC is chicken or beef, will send one of each. I never followed rules about feeding after Snowy was sick, I didnt have the net when seh was first diagnosed, so it took months to associate her vomiting with her liver probs, and we had locum vets at the time, I think a different vet did all 4 of her blood tests that year!! If she threw up, she would just yowl for more food, and I would make her wait about half an hour, and then give her more, she rarely threw it up the second time. I wasn't given any targets for food into her either. I would talk to your vet about alternatives.

[fluffybunny]

The only problem is gravy makes him whoops as it's too rich. 

I've always found that with mine too, for years he's never had food in gravy because it makes him sick, but now he is on RC sensitive and that is gravy based although it is nowhere near as rich and not really terribly 'gravy'like and he is absolutely fine with it.  So you may well find the same! 

[Gill (sneakiefeline)]

The cans should be fine in the depot.

I dont know about vomitting cos mine do it all time cos they love eating grass, Misa has just upchucked all over the desk and the food is full of grass, now he will be eating again cos he is hungry. I guess it depends on why they are sick, with mine its grass and fur.

sasa is a complete mystery cos she must eat more fur than anyone and I have never seen her sick, unless she goes outside and does it.

I hope that the french cans or zooplus cans will do it for Swampy.

What does your vet say about the food situation and the change in the Hills food? What does he recommend that Swampy eats now?

[swampmaxmum]

That's a lot to go on with. Many,many thanks oh lovely, kind cat people!  I googled until I was blue in the face trying to find wet food. Those American felines have a lot more choice, don't they. Am I wrong in thinking that it isn't allowed to ship in cat food from America?
That link for wet RC food (I thought they only did dry) is also very helpful.  Pouches of beef or chicken are definitely worth a try. The only problem is gravy makes him whoops as it's too rich.  Millys Mum you are a lot better at navigating zooplus than I am - spent ages on that site too.  I'll see if I can get small samples of them.

A friend in France has volunteered to send me 2 cans of their liver prescription diet which says the magic word boeuf.  I hope they arrive in usable condition - they don't do weekends so will be frozen in a depot until Monday (does that matter with canned food? I am getting manic with worry as these are crucial 'trial cans').  The good news on that is that if it doesn't make him sick, I can order up to 25 trays of it through my ex vet there!! The bad news is the delivery cost, but as you all know, when it comes to the furry ones, money just has to be found.

Hope 2 is enough to do the test.....or I will have a lot of unwanted grub 

Otherwise I will have to reconcile myself to an alternative and possible vomiting every day. What do your vets say? Mine insists that after any vomiting, even regurg, no food for at least 6 hours. Sometimes the boys are hungry and I lower that to 5 (and small amounts). With liver disease, you have a target to reach every day of food eaten. If it's the odd day with a vomit, that's ok, but if it's every day he could end up getting less than 1/4 can a day.
Fingers and paws crossed and thank you all.

[Sam (Fussy_Furball)]

Been doing a bit of a seach and found this page:  http://www.petz.co.uk/acatalog/Petz_Catalogue_Whiskas_112.html  item 3 and 4 are whiskas low protein / low phosphorous.  Don't know if Whiskas still make this food as the web page was last update in 2000 but it might be worth contacting them to see.

Also found this:  In the US Eukanuba do a canned food for renal failure ... can't seem to find it in the UK.  Again it might be worth contacting them:  http://us.iams.com/iams/en_US/jsp/IAMS_Page.jsp?pageID=PL&productID=115

Purina Diet NF available in cans: http://www.catclinic.co.uk/acatalog/Purina_Veterinary.html  avaialbe in the Uk (product info sheet:  http://www.purinaveterinarydiets.com/FelineProductDetail.aspx?prod=16)

Royal Canin Renal:  http://www.surreypetsupplies.co.uk/acatalog/Royal_Canin_Waltham_Veterinary_Diet_Feline.html#a14469 (7th item down the page)


Most of the info was found via this site : http://www.felinecrf.com/managd.htm

Sorry to overload you but hopefully you will be able to find an alternative that Swampy likes

[Millys Mum]

Hi swampys mum, i remembered seeing a can food for liver/kidneys that wasnt a veterinary diet, it took me a while to find it but here it is:

12x85g cans http://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/cats/canned_cat_food_pouches/kattovit/14028

6x175g can http://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/cats/canned_cat_food_pouches/kattovit/14011

P+p is free on orders of £29+. I have never seen/smelt this food so dont know how palatable it is but its worth a try.
HTH

[Gill (sneakiefeline)]

My vets have rung back and they have spoken to Hills who i am afraid said none in beef only in pork, so sorry. 

My vets were very kind and said if I needed any more help just to ring them, even though they knew it wasnt my cat.

I do hope that some other vets may have some stocks but think you need to start looking for a viable alternative so that hope fully you can wean him onto something different while you still have some of the beef there.

What does your vet suggest?

[fluffybunny]

Just got back from the vets, unfortunately they don't keep it in stock so ordering some probably won't help you   

[swampmaxmum]

Thanks Lyn. I don't think Swampy (or Max, who has recently started vomiting - no diagnosis yet) are allowed too much protein. Good luck with George; glad it's working.

[swampmaxmum]

Thanks again.  I'll check again whether Pets at Home were rung up. I seem to have rung everyone google came up with!

Desley, have pm'd you. 

[fluffybunny]

I'm going to the vets this afternoon, so I will check whether they have got any in stock too. 

Much as it pains me to suggest it - have you tried Pets at Home, they seem to stock all sorts of random hills cat foods, not sure if they only stock the non 'prescription diet' ones though :-/

[Desley (booktigger)]

Swampy - RC do Renal food in pouches, I have some of each flavour here that I am willing to send through the post for you to try on him (they were donated by my vet, and are in date) - if you want, just pm me with the details and I will try and remember to send them!! I have heard of m/d, but didn't think it was liver food, I thought it was diabetic food. I also have pouches of i/d, you are welcome to one of those too.

[swampmaxmum]

I have tried all the online retailers and they can only access new stock. I think the only chance is old stock already bought by vets or by vets persuading Hills to part with some old stock. I do wonder what Hills do with old stock when they change foods - surely not trash it?
I've never heard of Hills m/d and can't see it on their website - what is it please Lyn?
Swampy vomits any dry food. He also vomits k/d whether I mix it with water to soften it or not. The most he's ever kept down is a teaspoonful. He needs to eat about a can a day of something nourishing.  When the l/d runs out, I'll have to try i/d or Hills recommend d/d but they aren't for liver disease (and who knows, with a piggy deal maybe they will go porcine too?!)

When he was in hospital his ALT was over 1500. Eating l/d it was down to 58 a couple of weeks ago when he had his bloods done again.  I know once he gets really bad again, it's a question of getting any food in him, never mind what. But what Hills have done is make that day closer.

I am really disappointed that RCanin don't do a liver food. Do they do a very palatable canned kidney food or is it hard like k/d? Before he got ill, he was on RC senior dry kidney and osteo and doing well on that.
The best chance is if many vets complain to Hills about the change with liver patients who need to eat to live more than any other disease and who it's often the hardest to get to eat.
Thanks everyone who's trying and for the much needed support.

[Gill (sneakiefeline)]

If all the vets sudenly start ringing Hills and asking for this food it cause a bit of a stir maybe 

[Susanne (urbantigers)]

I wasn't sure whether swampys mum had tried the individual retailers or was just going by what Hills had said.

Unfortunately my vets don't keep much food in stock - they just buy it in for people as needed.  but I will give them a ring tomorrow and check whether they have any in.

[Gill (sneakiefeline)]

Its gonna be interesting see what Hills tell my vets cos they are gonna ring then tomorrow.

[Tiggy's Mum]

Many thanks everyone for the response. I have been in touch with Hills, who have not updated their website. They are now claiming the beef food is 'unavailable' ( where is all the old stock then?!). The web suppliers can only access the new pork food.

I think Swampy's Mum has tried the online suppliers but I would imagine that they have a much larger turnover of stock than an individual veterinary surgery so only have the new yucky foods in stock, I have emailed a couple myself and this is certainly the case with the ones I contacted.

If anyone else can check with their vets to see if they have any old stock (with a capital E next to the recycle stmbol on the label) I know Swampy's Mum, and of course Swampy himself, would be very grateful and would cover all costs.

[Kittybabe (Ruth)]

Yep I did Susanne, but not sure that's the one...I sent an email asking but haven't had a reply yet, couldnt find a phone number to just call and ask!

[Susanne (urbantigers)]

Not sure if anyone has already mentioned it but vetuk also have the beef version on their website

http://www.vetuk.co.uk/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=417

It's possible they've just not updated the details but it would be worth checking with individual retailers (as opposed to Hills themselves) whether they have any of the beef in stock.  Even if they can only access the pork one in future they may still have the beef one in stock.

[Sam (Fussy_Furball)]

http://www.bestpetpharmacy.co.uk/detailed_product.asp?id=13588 not sure how their prices compare but if they have it as advertised on their website you can probably get plenty from them (might be worth sending them an email and checking it's the old stock rather then the pork stuff first)

[Amanda (mad4moggies)]

As far as i know RC Waltham do not do a liver diet as i was looking this up on the net last night. The only one they do is for dogs. Not quite sure why!

[Desley (booktigger)]

I managed to forget I'm afraid - am back next week and the week after though, I might just manage to remember at some point!! In response to your question about liver food, I have had a cat with raised liver enzymes which then developed into cholangiohepatitis, when she was diagnosed (3 years ago this month actually), teh vet recommended one Hills diet, but they had discontinued it, so she had k/d, which was actually the kidney diet. When it developed further, she was also given i/d, but we were at the stage where it was more getting anythign into her than worrying what she was eating. She only ate her 'special' food about 10% of the time, but she did prefer the dry over the wet - I accepted that she would'nt have as long as I couldn't get her to eat the special food, but chose quality over quantity. I wonder if RC do a liver diet, I know they do a kidney diet.

[swampmaxmum]

Gill, I'll buy as many as they are prepared to sell me of the old trays. I have to stockpile as they will run out of it.
Paws really really crossed! I'll login tomorrow and hope for the best.
Thank you so much for your kindness in helping the Swampcat!

[Gill (sneakiefeline)]

Also like Helen you will need to pay them over the phone , right lets keep those paws all crossed 

[Gill (sneakiefeline)]

Too late LOL, but they dont know who its for and are using my account although I have said its for a friend whos cat will die without it. I havent been asked for a prescription ..............................yet 

However lets not cross bridge before its built. I should hear tomorrow.

If they can get some I have asked then to tell me how much a tray will be but how much do you want?

[swampmaxmum]

Many thanks Gill but please ask the vets (if they don't mind) to say it's for one of their own liver patients as I'm sure that's the only way it may be possible. Paws crossed.

I was just working out how many ££s they've had from me over the years 

[Gill (sneakiefeline)]

Have just spoken to my vets and they did not have any but will ring Hills to see if they can get some, I have told them if they can, you are wanting as much as possible with in reason LOL.

So keeping fingers crossed.

Have not had a reply back from Hills though, will chase them if I dont hear by tomorrow.

[swampmaxmum]

L/d is liver diet. Swampy and I are looking for the canned variety, not the dry. yes, the capital letter E is in a little box just next to the recycle symbol on the label.  If the box contains an IA, it's the new yuk stuff.

Thanks everyone, much appreciated.  Is there anyone else out there whose kitty has or has had liver disease? I was wondering what you fed him/her.

[Cheesecat]

I will call and ask mine tonight too

What does LD stand for so I know what I am asking for?
I want Hills L/D food with an E next to the recycle label?

[Desley (booktigger)]

Will try and remember to ask at my vets tonight.

[Gill (sneakiefeline)]

Right have just emailed Hills. Lets see what they have to say 

[Gill (sneakiefeline)]

At a guess would have to think that E stands for Europe but cant think what IA can stand for, just feel by the fact there are two differing types of food with different labels means that one lot is going one part of world and other part going somewhere else.

[swampmaxmum]

Thanks Gill. Let me know asap if they do please! The IA is code for the horrible new formula with pork.  Hills get their food and orders from HQ in Kansas, USA. I'm not sure if the food in the US is the same as here or not though. 

[Gill (sneakiefeline)]

I will ring my vets and see if they have any. I wonder what the IA stands for as opposed to the E. It makes me wonder if the labels are different whether they actually have stopped making the ones with an E and maybe they are just not allowing this country to have them. Think I gonna email Hills and ask them.

[Tiggy's Mum]

If anyone else tracks down these L/D cans the old Beef version has the capital letter E next to the recycle symbol on the label, the new yucky ones have IA.

[swampmaxmum]

You are a        and 
that's about it for emoticons.
A purr from Swampy to Tiggy too.....he's nearly eaten his can today and is now playing!

If anyone else does hear of any cans, would be very grateful if you'd post or contact me by pm.

[Tiggy's Mum]

Mission accomplished!  34 cans on their way to you....  Really hope that you can find some more from another source.  Please give Swampy a gentle headkiss from me and Tiggy.