The new Animal Welfare reforms. What has changed?

[Hippykitty]

Am I right in thinking that the maximum jail sentence for extreme cruelty has risen from 6mths to 15mths? If so, I think this is probably a good thing, and should have (if it had been in place) been given to the guy who

bit the head off a kitten in front of dozens of witnesses

.
If this will be the case, it'll be one good deterrent to come from this new legislation.

[Ela]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Remember that the obese dog that the RSPCA removed from it's owners and prosecuted them over was absolutely huge

It could hardly walk, could it?

[Susanne (urbantigers)]

Remember that the obese dog that the RSPCA removed from it's owners and prosecuted them over was absolutely huge - something like 11 stone!  We're talking morbidly obese not just a pet that's carrying a few too many llbs. 

[fuzziesdad]

I honestly do not think that the RSPCA will be knocking on our doors every 5 mins they just don't have the manpower to do that so things will just about as they are now unless they have a huge influx of people to train as inspectors which I doubt very much.

Plus the fact that all cats have worms and fleas we try to and sometimes are able to get rid of most but if thats what they might come to look for then the law will never be a success and this is possibly where it will fail because like most things in life these days anyone with power will take the path of least resistance to ensure a prosecution and do this to show that they can example being that of the fat dog while prosecuting them there are far worse things happening elsewhere eg:- dog fighting,abandonment of pets,ect ect.the new law was not needed to bring people like this to book .....but even when they could have bought prosecutions for this they did'nt (here in Wales,llanelli a guy bit the head off a kitten in front of dozens of witnesses and the DPP and the RSPCA decided that there was not enough evidence,so if the DPP did not want to prosecute why did't the RSPCA take out a private prosecution it certainly was not for the lack of funds) because as then and now its all about making headlines to bring them donations.
I said this some years ago the new law IS GOOD but having it policed by the RSPCA means that it won't work because they lack the respect of the public which they are striving to recover ...........all to late. 

[Ela]

have just realised what you are talking about may pertain to me if that law also covers scotland

I wouldn't have thought so as I have not seen any mention of the SSPCA,

as my youngest grey is pitifully skinny, so much so ive said on a number of times had you seen him in the street you'd think he was starved and underfed but its not for the want of feeding

I think we all have or had cats like that, however,  a quick phone call to the vets would confirm all is well.

and still i'd see roundworm in faeces and can only assume he had so much larval stages in organ and gut tissues they were permanently hatching out.

We too have problems with certain cats it seems almost impossible to 'get rid', again with what you purchase from either the vet or via the internet it can be shown you are doing  everything possible to eliminate the problem. If an Inspector said but can you prove you actually gave the pet the treatment, you could always grab them by the scruff of the neck and say I did it this way.

[CurlyCatz]

i have just realised what you are talking about may pertain to me if that law also covers scotland as my youngest grey is pitifully skinny, so much so ive said on a number of times had you seen him in the street you'd think he was starved and underfed but its not for the want of feeding, he gets practically every table scrap on top of normal food going to the exclusion of tom as toms weight is fine but we feel logan needs every bit extra he can get, ive done the extra protein in form on mince etc, added vege oil etc but nothing makes a difference, sometimes he does look a tad less pityful but on the whole he's never looked like a well fed dog.

We have no explanation for it other than it took me around 2 years to get his roundworm under control and re contamination wasnt the issue as my other dog wasnt being infected..we can only presume his rubbish breeder (not the same as my other 3 had) didnt have worming protcol in place and my dogs intestines have been damaged permanently with the terrible infestations he had, i'd worm him every month and still i'd see roundworm in faeces and can only assume he had so much larval stages in organ and gut tissues they were permanently hatching out.

having said all that even if i was "inspected" i have every confidence given the look of my other animals and my explanation would allow common sense to prevail (or is that niave ?)

was just about to post when i saw your last post ela, i have the ashes of sooty, jake and archie...those i am determined will go in the box with me and i could not bear to part with them in my lifetime..i should imagine others will be buried or even perhaps and probably their ashes will be buried, I even had my 2 rats privately cremated LOL and someday when i have a "special" place somewhere i intend to live for a long time i will scatter or bury them too.   

[Ela]

I want my cats where I know they loved to be.

I wish I could do the same but I have to authorise so many to be gently PTS a year that it would be impossible. Some of them I don't even know as the may be a RTA that the vet could not save  but once I have dealt with the situation I consider them my responsibility and I would wish to treat all my responsibilities the same (including my own if you know what I mean). To bury them all we would need loads of land and just to have the ashes back of all would be a huge drain on the rescue resources and it is money that needs to be used to save lives. I so wanted my Badger back but because I don't have the cats back I did not think it fair to have 'Our Boy' back.

[Ela]

the vet didn't say that I wouldnt' have been able to bring Pebbles home

Rightly so in my opinion, in our area there is just one vet who is a jobsworth and will not allow you to bring the little ones home. All the others appreciate that many people want to take their much loved pet back home. Sometimes the law or local by laws are as they say an Ass.

[Ela]

I believe that as citizens we have rights and I do not agree with Elas staement at the begin where she says that she hopes that our rights are eroded, as pet owners we should not have somone breaking into our private homes on the whim of a nasty neighbour who decided to call RSPCA under this Bill and exagerate something which is not either illegal or hurting an animal or putting its life at risk.

I expect the above comment was because of :-

Have any of our rights been eroded by this

legislation? and my reply:- I hope they have, as it is now bad pet owners cat get away with too much.

I had just known about 2 puppies locked in a house (with curtains closed) with water (and a very small pot at that, much less than a pint) on only one day and nothing else. I had to sit in my lounge overlooking the house and could do nothing  The RSPCA said  until the puppies are not barking and running around they are fine in the eyes of the law. Had this law been out a couple of weeks ago the puppies could have been removed within 24 hours. Had we not found the son and said we will take them, can you imagine how much longer they could have gone on until they were almost lifeless and the feeling when you cannot do anything because of the law is heartbreaking. The new law will at least ensure animals  such as these can now be helped sooner.

I would hope that the new laws are policed sensibly, e.g.  Very recently someone near here who would not even step on an ant was reported for beating her dogs and  that the dogs constantly barked. The inspector called and advised her why he was there, she invited him in and he saw the 3 dogs in their cosy beds and the condition they were in and just said sorry just another  malicious call. Also all people such as us that really do care for our pets have nothing to worry about. The RSPCA could come to my house at anytime and take all my pets to the vets if someone reported me for neglect. I know they would soon be returned as if anything is wrong the vet knows about it and treatment is being received.  Although  I would not like it and the upset it may cause my pets. I think it a small price to pay to save others.

The new law is not perfect by any means but it is a start and hopefully it will be fine tooth combed and bits amended.

[Desley (booktigger)]

I know that you are not allowed to bury animals in certain places - but I did it 4 years ago, and there was no issues - edited to add that thinking about it, 3 of mine have been buried, and the vet didn't say that I wouldnt' have been able to bring Pebbles home, and that was only in December, so not the case everywehre in the country. I am not convinced that this new law is going to have much of an effect - I still can't see how it will truly get to the people that are causing cruelty to animals - how are the RSPCA going to know about it?? I Wonder if some of my neighbours cats would have been included in this - one lot let 2 unneutered cats roam around, one ended up losing the babies and having mastitis (they are both now done, poor female had so many fleas the vet had to spray her and leave her there overnight before she would spay her), and the other neighbour never got his cat diagnosed or treated for obvious kidney issues, that poor cat was left to go 'naturally' - 2 of the three suffered in my opinion, but how would the RSPCA see that? I am a bit uneasy on the weight issue too - mine are fine, but obviously Lucy isnt, but I am working on that, will have to see how it works - at least if someone does say anything, there are vet records of weigh ins.

[Ela]

Ela, will you kindly be very careful what you say on these threads as I am finding some of your comments to be hurtful to people and unnecessary.

Please advise me to which comment you are referring?

 It is Ok I may know. I could say more but today is a new day and good Thursday. We used to always call it good Thursday when I worked because we only had to work half a day.

[fuzziesdad]

oh OK knickers twisted and all that as you might have seen someone has said on that thread its not illegal thank god I want my cats where I know they loved to be.
as for the new law there is nothing new in there and the old law gave them the same rights to prosecute and even confiscate an animal if it was thought there might have been abuse which has been implemented many times  where there has been a fear of dogs being involved in dog fighting(something that goes on a lot in our area)maybe ela thought this thing about burying was against the law in certain counties (by-laws). 

[Gill (sneakiefeline)]

No roger my post has nothing to do with RSPCA or overweight animals and I am sorry if I have caused confusion. It is a knock back to another thread concerning law according to ela about not being able to bury your cat after it has been put to sleep.

But i have just read this thread following the other 5 pages and am very angry about what she has said.

That is my opinion  so are you telling me I am not allowed one?

As you well know I am not a fan of RSPCA and have supported your petition from day one. History of what has happened on other sites is nothing to do with Purrs and need not be mentioned cos its never happens here.

Concerning tha Animal Welfare Bill, its a bad Bill, badly written and waiting for the courts interpretation of it. The RSPCA should never have been allowed to police it and like you I am sure, I am just waiting for disputes under the Bill to start hitting the press. We can always hope that the RSPCA are too overstretched as now to be able to do too much damage. They will not want their name to be publically emblazoned across the internet and TV and local and national rags, as being responsible for takiing peples pets without a very good reason.

I believe that as citizens we have rights and I do not agree with Elas staement at the begin where she says that she hopes that our rights are eroded, as pet owners we should not have somone breaking into our private homes on the whim of a nasty neighbour who decided to call RSPCA under this Bill and exagerate something which is not either illegal or hurting an animal or putting its life at risk.

I read a quote on a thread posted in here a couple of days agao from an RSPCA rep, who said that the main advantage of the bill is that they can act before an act of cruelty has taken place, or something to that effect, rather than waiting until after. Now if we are talking about an animals life being in danger, then I agree with that but they seem to have always had a strange idea exactly what constitutes cruelty!! I would consider cruelty to also be PTS a healthy animal!!

However you have got me started now when on this subject I think we share the same views.

[fuzziesdad]

Ela, will you kindly be very careful what you say on these threads as I am finding some of your comments to be hurtful to people and unnecessary.

Our rights should not be infringed and anyones who are should stand up to the those who use the weight of the law but are outside the spirit of the law.

Ela if you going to keep saying something is against the law, either quote the law in question or be silent.

Thank you.

I think thats a little unnecessary ,this is after all a forum and the nature of a forum is discussion and  sometimes in a forum discussion there is a difference of opinion and things said that  are that persons opinion you don't have to agree with that ,something that I know well  for 3 years I and others have been banging on about the RSPCA  we have  had our posts and threads taken off the forums and some posts even altered  since then the groundswell has moved the other way .
If by your comment you are saying that ela was wrong saying that it was against the law to have an overweight dog she is correct according to the new law  the point I made and I think you are trying to make is that the law has been broken but the RSPCA could have chosen  to be a little owner friendly and err to advise rather than go to law and win the case but lose the charity a lot of the British publics hard earned money given in donations  and  at the same lose the confidence,respect of those same people .                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

[Gill (sneakiefeline)]

Ela, will you kindly be very careful what you say on these threads as I am finding some of your comments to be hurtful to people and unnecessary.

Our rights should not be infringed and anyones who are should stand up to the those who use the weight of the law but are outside the spirit of the law.

Thank you.

[CurlyCatz]

accordingly steriods increase thirst and appetite and it is up to the owners to follow advice and not feed more as the animals asks for it...BUT whilst i think that is very true steriods will make the animal put a bit of weight on but not as much as many blame them for.

[Mark]

Thanks Lisa,

She is a bit on the big side though - you can see one of her nips in the photo 

This one might be easier to see - see wouldn't keep still and she was cleaning herself 

[attachment deleted by admin]

[forever_missing_my_boys(Lisa)]

lovely photo mark  shes gorgeous and doesnt look overweight to me

[Dawn (DiddyDawn)]

Only really read the last few posts on this thread but just to add, steroids can add to a weight problem......my shepherd was on constant steroids and I had to regularly alter her diet.  She didn't get excessively overweight as she's a big dog anyway but compared to what she was when I first got her, she nearly doubled in weight.

[Mark]

Here's my "neglected" cat Kylie in the garden just now (sorry for the plastic chairs - temporary measure til the garden is done)
I hope they don't punish me 

[attachment deleted by admin]

[fuzziesdad]

sorry confused with another case although if you read the full report it does look as though they have made a lot of enemies over this prosecution and also lost £12,000 pounds of donated money,surely the threat of prosecution would have been enough the RSPCA's publicity machine looks like its in reverse then they never did know how to deal with the public,the story could still have been put in the media with the nice RSPCA inspector smiling and advising the owners about the poor dog instead you have the same inspector after the court made them pay £12,000  trying desperately to dig himself out of a huge hole of his own making.

I will dig out the case of the dog on steroids if I can find it, there are so many.

[Ela]

None of the many reports about it at the time mentioned that.  Would steroids really make a dog that much overweight?

I didn't notice any mention of that either,  also when the dog was with the RSPCA it lost weight when on a proper diet, surely if it had needed the steroids it would have had them. Although I don't like to admit it I think sometimes they do get it right and without doubt that dog needed help.
.

[Susanne (urbantigers)]

the labrador dog  was in fact on steroids(HENCE THE OVERWEIGHT)

  Really?  None of the many reports about it at the time mentioned that.  Would steroids really make a dog that much overweight?

[fuzziesdad]

but I can't say I have much faith in the RSPCA policing it.

I don't think you are on your own there.

you certainly are not,I have been studying the new law over the last 3 years and even as it was it would take someone with a legal mind to understand it .but now it has so many amendments it is even more of a minefield.
the new law is not much more than any old one other than its more complicated,the RSPCA or anyone for that fact could have taken someone to court for abuse of an animal,the difference now is that the policing of the law can be more efficient excuse me while I have a long laugh it is going to be policed by the RSPCA who at best are a bunch of bumblers and at worst are ultra draconian it also now means that they can enter your premises without a warrant or a policeman and if so minded can make you find,catch, your animal to be taken away and if you do not help them in this you will be fined.
It was nice to hear a vet on the breakfast programme this morning saying he thought this new law would work out OK but was worried about the interpretation of it,their is and never has been an independent WATCHDOG  for the RSPCA which is why I started this petition.
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/rspcainquiry

the labrador dog  was in fact on steroids(HENCE THE OVERWEIGHT) and if the RSPCA had done their homework and asked the owners vet they would have known this (what I said bumblers).there are going to be many animals taken,re-homed,PTS before the British public wake up and see what has happened the TORIES have said they will have a look at this law if they get in at the next election and maybe even get rid of  it,it will be the first time I have voted for them in my life.
this law was driven by,will be policed by,the RSPCA.
They will be doing this government bidding and prosecuting,but they still do not have an independent WATCHDOG        

[Michelle (furbabystar)]

It has been the law a long time, not sure how long though, it is a Environmental Health thing. Although obviously if the pet dies at home or a vet comes to the home to PTS that is different. I think many vets in the interest of compassion conveniently forget the law, although I know one vet who doesn't.

I have never come across this before.

I collected ^Star^'s body from a local vets after an RTA
and my vet let me take ^Scaggy Cat^ after he was PTS

[Michelle (furbabystar)]

Once a week, a dirty old unmarked red lorry pulls up in the alley behind my house and carries various bags out from the vets next door. It's not the regular rubbish - maybe I have an overactive imagination but it always depresses me as I always think they are taking away PTS animals. It could just be "sharps" and medical waste I suppose?

All vets have a collection of "bodies" once a week.
Norm done at night and the collection people have a key.

[Ela]

but I can't say I have much faith in the RSPCA policing it.

I don't think you are on your own there.

[Susanne (urbantigers)]

This is the dog case I was thinking of.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/animalrights/story/0,,1989216,00.html

As the article states the dog has since lost weight I presume he was not pts.  The dog was extremely overweight and I do think they were right in that instance to take the dog away, esp if the article is correct and the owners had already been advised they need to do something.

[Mark]

The problem is I went to the vet re kylie's weight about a years ago and they gave me fod for obese cats and

In that case I would see a different vet.

I am using a different vet now and all he said was "she is far from being the heaviest patient" - this is a vet who was going up to London for meetings with ministers re the new bill. He is also actively invoved in animal welfare.
btw - her last weigh-in was 7.05 kg - she is a big girl anyway so it's not all fat.

[Susanne (urbantigers)]

The problem is I went to the vet re kylie's weight about a years ago and they gave me fod for obese cats and Kylie just wouldn't touch it. It's an ongoing battle with her weight.

But the point is you're trying.  You're aware she's overweight and have sought medical advice about what to do.  You can't force a cat to eat a food it doesn't like.

The dog thing was a labrador right?  It was very obese and the owners didn't seem to care and had not attempted to do anything about it.  I think the RSPCA had already visited and recommended they take the dog to the vet but when they returned the owners had still done nothing.

I agree Lyn-Su - I like the act in principle but I can't say I have much faith in the RSPCA policing it.

[Lyn-Su]

There is also some secondary legislation that will come into force under the Animal Welfare Act - such as the banning of tail docking accept for working dogs.

http://www.defra.gov.uk/animalh/welfare/act/secondary_legis.htm

I'll be the first to admit that I do not like this government at all (I'm a member of a different political party and have stood for parliament before) - but the legislation seems to be good. However, the legislation is fine - it's the enforcement that I worry about.......

[JackSpratt]

I don't know any details but I thought it was just a case of expanding it so that lack of appropriate care was considered cruelty.  In the case of overweight pets I don't think anyone who's dealing with their pets weight problem needs to worry - it's just those who over feed and don't seek any veterinary help for obese pets who could be prosecuted (like the case with the labrador a while back).

But what happens to the dog? It's seized presumably, and I know for a fact our local shelter PTS dogs because they don't have enough room. (I'd like to say at this point, they WOULD'VE had enough room if they hadn't agreed to take on a group of dogs from another rescue.)

[Lyn-Su]

Googled it and there's a basic article in the Telegraph

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/04/04/nanimals104.xml

and this from DEFRA

http://www.defra.gov.uk/animalh/welfare/act/index.htm

http://www.defra.gov.uk/animalh/welfare/act/affect.htm

[forever_missing_my_boys(Lisa)]

mark: my molly hates being groomed too
she will attack , she will swipe and hiss
but im afraid we have to bribe her , the oh feeds her fresh cooked chicken in little pieces while im brushing her , she makes no fuss at all until shes eat enough chicken then when she hasnt got her mind occupied she will then start hissing and swiping
shes a very krafty cat  

[Ela]

The problem is I went to the vet re kylie's weight about a years ago and they gave me fod for obese cats and

In that case I would see a different vet.

[Ela]

I am worried as Kylie has always been overweight. She has low fat food and coley. As for grooming, she hates it and I have to chase her round the garden - even then she attacks and draws blood. I even bought a "good girl" brush with a long handle yesterday to try.

There was a court case very recently where a very overwight was was taken by the RSPCA but later returned to the owners. However, I expect if the dog puts weight on again they may not be so lucky next time. I think if Kylie was VERY overweight and it was proved that diet was the cause  and you were not reducing her weight gradually then perhaps yes, that would be a concern to the RSPCA. A dog in need of a good groom I don't know, but as we do know it is very uncomfortable for a pet to be in this condition and perhaps a comb out at the vets under sedation may be an idea.

[Mark]

I don't know any details but I thought it was just a case of expanding it so that lack of appropriate care was considered cruelty.  In the case of overweight pets I don't think anyone who's dealing with their pets weight problem needs to worry - it's just those who over feed and don't seek any veterinary help for obese pets who could be prosecuted (like the case with the labrador a while back).

The problem is I went to the vet re kylie's weight about a years ago and they gave me fod for obese cats and Kylie just wouldn't touch it. It's an ongoing battle with her weight.

[Mark]

It has been the law a long time, not sure how long though, it is a Environmental Health thing. Although obviously if the pet dies at home or a vet comes to the home to PTS that is different. I think many vets in the interest of compassion conveniently forget the law, although I know one vet who doesn't.

Once a week, a dirty old unmarked red lorry pulls up in the alley behind my house and carries various bags out from the vets next door. It's not the regular rubbish - maybe I have an overactive imagination but it always depresses me as I always think they are taking away PTS animals. It could just be "sharps" and medical waste I suppose?

[Susanne (urbantigers)]

I don't know any details but I thought it was just a case of expanding it so that lack of appropriate care was considered cruelty.  In the case of overweight pets I don't think anyone who's dealing with their pets weight problem needs to worry - it's just those who over feed and don't seek any veterinary help for obese pets who could be prosecuted (like the case with the labrador a while back).

[Ela]

I wondered whether this could infringe upon the rights of good, caring owners.

I wouldn't think so if pets are caried for how they should be. The laws are their to protect the animals not us.