Lupin has upset tummy

[Gill (sneakiefeline)]

Spoke to Gareth and he said to bring a sample in tomorrow and he will get some different special food to add to what he has to try and stop him being so hungry and angry.

They are also going to get a supplement for him a bit like lacto B......maybe the one mentioned by Susanne I think but dont know.

As far as Ducha is concerned, just keeping a watching brief but they are trying to stop me having to bring them in, also trying to preserve my  new insurance cover if possible.

He thinks if it does spread to Ducha it will be a virus, so they seem to be pretty sure its not giardia but will have to wait until next week for the sample results to come back.

[Gill (sneakiefeline)]

What abs were used Liz?

He had a convenia jab which will just be kicking in and 3 days panacur last one just received.

The vet didnt want to use a penicillin based ab cos that could cause probs too.

Certainly he goes back a sample had to accompany him.

No Ducha and Lupin do not share litter trays.

I know this is probably impossible to answer but are there any specific signs of Giardia? All I can remember was vet was muttering about large and small intestine and didnt seem to think this was giardia because different type of stools come from each if infected. I think that was what he said........sigh

I am not supposed to give Lupin anything tasty.....sigh and the vet wanted me to starve him but told him thats not an option because he is so food oriented and goes crazy without food. The vet doesnt want me to give him very much foor to try and get his gut to settle.

Yes usually I can get Lupin to follow his dish but right now he is not keen on the food so wont follow lol.............I too clink the dish and before all this special food lark, if he saw a food dish in my hand he would follow.

Good point about the relationship between food and anger..............I should know this!!

[Dawn F]

agree with Sheilarose, a friend of mines cat needed several sessions to clear it of giarda

[sheilarose]

Will he follow his food out of the kitchen?

I've "trained" Tufty to come for his dinner by tapping the side of the tin bowl with my fingernail - when he's there I tap the bowl before putting it down for him. I can get him to follow the "tap tap" through the house when he's hungry. When he's not there (if he's in earshot) I tap the bowl he'll come running (well, scurrying - Tufty can't run because of his dicky shoulder).

It might be worth setting up a little dinner gong like this for Lupin, that he will associate with nice grub, and hopefully mean you'll be able to move him around the house  willingly instead of his current stubbornness.

As for his stinky poos, while Panacur (fenbendazole) is one of the recommended treatments for Giardia (one of the suspected causes of chronic stinky diarrhea), it is by no means the only one, and cats do appear to be more resistant to treatment of Giardia than dogs, so just one, three day "session" may not be enough to cure Lupin, if this is his problem. I would call the vet tomorrow if Lupin is still the same, and ask how quickly to expect an improvement.

Just a note - I caught a couple of DR Mike Richard's articles on this subject, he recommends testing for FIV and FELv  if resistance to treatment continues as he has found these conditions responsible for exacerbating the symptoms of the infection. Don't be offended if your vet recommends these tests, there is a scientific basis for them if he continues to be resistant to treatment.

I imagine your vet's next step will be a fecal sample inspection (or possibly several samples - as the cystic discharge associated with Giardia occurs sporadically so may not be apparent in the first specimen you take) to ascertain what strain of infection he has, after which there's a range of options to try, any one of which may work for Lupin.

As for his hunger, has the vet said he can snack between meals? Can you give him a handful of the sensitive biscuits every now and again to stave off his hunger? Sounds like he's getting stressed with his hunger. A young, boisterous kitten will naturally eat tons to keep his blood sugars level (and his temper).   

[Liz]

I would phone the vet and get appointments for both of them as it sounds like a bug thing and if they are sharing grit boxes eaily transferred from one to the other

Still sounds like Giardia Mist had this when he arrived with us and the Panacur and antibiotics cleared it up in about a week

[Rosella moggy]

Just so sorry to hear this Gill    I would ring vet and see what they say 

[Gill (sneakiefeline)]

Sadly not long after came the normal stinking mess and again about 30 mins ago.

He has just had the last of the meds but apart from that one glorious moment yesterday, he is just as bad as ever and is starving hungry.

Last night this caused a problem cos he had used the tray and wanted food and got into the kitchen and refused to go back, he moves so much quicker than I and he was growling very badly, lashing out and couldnt get close to him.

I think hunger makes him very angry, especially when he has just used the tray and he will start hunting for food, any food.

Between times he is as good as gold but thinking maybe he needs to go back to the vets tomorrow but he has just had his last of the 3 days panacur so am I over reacting too early?

[Susanne (urbantigers)]

Sounds promising!

[sheilarose]

This is the happiest poop of your life!  Congratulations, lets hope it's the first of many 

[snarf]

  woo! hopefully thats cracked it and it will continue to improve

[Gill (sneakiefeline)]

He has been to the tray and its nearly solid and not smelling so bad  ;

The vet said there was this liquid form and my hopes soared but then said the granules were better!!

He has just had his second course of dinner although a bit to go and its taken about 3 hrs!

[Liz]

I was just raking the cupboard as its outside cat worming day and found that we have some liquid Panacur it disappers in the food and on checking 15 mins ago all wet food gone so they maybe a better answer our current kittens left some of the granules to so their next lot will be liquid in tuna

[Gill (sneakiefeline)]

Its not hot here but tuna is in the fridge lol

He has eventually eaten his second course but has not used the tray since going to the vets............hoping thats a good sign.

Syringing is not an option as only have one fully working hand so cant hold and cant grip with the non-working one.

Also I dont want Lupin being scared all the time, I want him to eat normally although thats not what I call the current regime!

[sheilarose]

My lot have eaten next to nothing today either - too hot.

They're loving a bit of chilled Whiskas milk though - maybe put Lupin's food in the fridge and see if he likes it cold?

 

[Liz]

Don't give him anything else to eat till he has had a go at the food provided if he is on his own then he will get the notion eventually

I put down that sort of food following a vets visit and they will eventually eat it cause they know that Mummy means nothing else till most of its gone

Also find the older the cat the less success with Panacur granules in food then we resort to the stuff in the syringe and find that much faster and more effective also less waste on food

[Gill (sneakiefeline)]

At present I am just following the vets advice, thanks.

Lupin is eating his tuna laced with panacur but will only touch the sensitivity food as a second course!

Well that was last night, today so far he wont eat it!

[Susanne (urbantigers)]

I ttried lacto B right at beginning and it didnt work at all.

Gill, Have you tried this

http://www.amazon.com/FortiFlora-FELINE-Box-gram-packets/dp/B00164YL22

I got given some at the cat show last year and used it on Mosi as he had the runs at the time.  It worked well.

[Gill (sneakiefeline)]

Thanks Steff, my vet doesnt want to do anything else for a week to see if todays treatment works.

For a food which he refused to eat for some hours and had tuna with the panecur in instead, he has eaten it .........sigh

I think the tuna is the only way to get the panecur in him and now just watching smelling amd waiting!

If he thinks he is getting any more food before bed................................trouble is Ducha will want some and he needs all the food he will eat.

[Steff - Petsearch Bedford HQ]

When i first homed Bourneville he had a really poorly tummy which was one of the reasons he was rehomed, it had been put down to sensitive tum and the need for special food. After a week of his awful poo's I was not happy with the previous owners vets diagnosis so i took him to my own. He was on boiled chicken and rice, special food and pro-kolin to start, then ab's and panacur, then tests - stool sample and also FIV in house just in case (this was because he wasnt responding to treatment, but all clear). Stool sample came back as giardia so it was a changed to stronger ab's, higher doses of panacur, pro-kolin (although we switched to pro-biotic yoghurt) and hypo-allergenic food plus the advice that he may be left with a sensitive tum. This all happened over a couple of weeks so would suggest to stool test ASAP if he doesn't start to "firm up"

Giardia does seem quite common in peds (bourneville is bsh)

Hope he starts to get better soon x

[Gill (sneakiefeline)]

Thanks Snarf 

I have to say theat Geraint was very clued up on T Foetus and seems that there is now a much more sensitive test for it in this country and also treatment that is not as scarey as the fab info sheet.

I ttried lacto B right at beginning and it didnt work at all.

Afraid  head switched off when he started talking about large and small intestines and then bowel plus all the stuff about food......sigh

I went with my questions and all info for him but gets to the stage when you hit overload!

However we will revisit all this if Lupin isnt better in a week.

Loopy didnt like the prokalin lol, it became on the face medicine as I have read on Purrs  also on the table, on the vet.............I just stood back and let him get on with it 

I am so pleased that Neko was diagnosed and treated and your input here is wonderful for me.

Here in Wales they dont see many pedigree cats, so mine are a bit of a novelty.

I really hope that Lupin starts to improve quick cos the last vet visit scared him and he didnt want to get in his previously loved carrier and am hoping his gentle treatment today may have reversed that.

[Liz]

Gill if he lived with other cats that do go out he can get anything they may have brought in

His parentage may have had Corona in it as it is passed from Mother to kittens during weaning

The FIV is where most vets start when blood testing to rule that and FELV out so that 2 major things less to worry about

Toxoplasmosis can be bought in on shoes or by the other cats if they are sharing grit boxes

have to say cost shouldn't come in to it for a young cat, doesn't in our house

[snarf]

Hopefully the abs will do the trick. Neko loved the prokolin- he had about 3 tubes before we shifted onto Lacto -B (also repopulates the good bacteria)

T-thingy (or t-foetus) is still relatively newly identified i think, our vets hadnt seen it before and it was lucky that a locum had only come across it as she had only recently qualified. my own vets hadnt heard of it and looked it up before questioning the charity vets about it and how they identified it. ive heard its quite prevalent in bengals (think someone on here suggested it before neko was diagnosed) some of the write ups are abit scary as the treatment is very new and not much stats available but it worked a miracle on Neko and wed got though so much food testing, elimination, abs, remedies etc, the vets were even looking at internal exams as they felt theyd exhausted other causes so i know how stressful this is for you 

If it is a bacterial problem or a gut parasite infection it shouldnt affect his insurance as its non reoccurring once treated. if it is an allergy or intolerance or IBS itll have exclusions on insurance but should be easier to manage once identified (if hell cooperate!)

[Gill (sneakiefeline)]

Lupin has never been out in his life.

I know exactly what Corona can mutate too but vet does not think its that either, it was just a final thought about all the things it could possible be.

Can you tell me why test for FIV?

He is a pedigree born from the mating of two healthy peds, has never been out......how would he catch FIV? Just asking cos I dont think he could possibly have it apart from the fact his symptoms are not I believe any symptom of FIV and I can see no point in testing.

If any tests are done they will not be for things that he cant have cos I cant afford to just test blindly, there has to be a reason for any test and no tests will be done if he is better by next week.

I am so hoping this will be the case for little Lupin and also cos I dont need any exemptions on his new insurance.

He is asleep on top of the cat tree and one leg is slipping lol, I think the convenia jab has flaked him out 

[Liz]

Gill hope its not the Corona virus as to much stress and change can cause the dreaded mutation to FIP

Gill get the vet to check for Toxoplasmosis if he went out at his last house this can give all of the symptoms you say Lupin has and it will also check for high Corona titres which is an indication on wether he is a carrier or not

Toxo and Corona can be run on the same sample to and would recommend they send a sample to Glasgow vets school just to be on the safe side rather than relyining on an inhouse test

Would also get him tested for FIV to whilst the other stuff is being considered

[Gill (sneakiefeline)]

Geraint handled him much bettter and no thermometor!

He has had convenia , prokalin from Geraint, and is now getting panucur granules in tuna. He was given special food but wont touch it, they said I couldnt get a refund and the alternative was tuna in springwater.

If he is no better in a week, we will go for the tests and he will need to go back with a sample.

There are just so many things it could be, he didnt think it was Giardia or the T thingy and said they have never had that at the practice and its not ruled out. Even could be Corona virus but there are so many variables and certainly stress could be one cos he has gone through a lot in the last month.

So right now its trying to eliminate things one by one, could be dietry but the white fish made him worse.

The good thing is that he still Loopy!! abd not losing weight.

So keep fingers crossed that he will improve over next few days please.

[Liz]

One of the major causes of this can be stress in a cat, also it could be Giardia which can be a sod to shift and requires worming and Antibiotics = we had to do this with Mist and a couple of the outside ferals as they were living outside, Hopefully the vet can worm him to save you being shredded

Also round and tape worm can cause this and you did say you thought you hadn't got all the Profender on him hope the visit goes better than the last one when he was all paws and claws

[Gill (sneakiefeline)]

Thank you very much for all the info and he is off to see Geraint at 1730.

Yes his smell is gaggingly bad and am using copious sprays of neutrodol which over powers it eventually but by then its time for the next eviction!

He is now bleeding which is new but he is still rushing all over the place abd doesnt think he is ill so really hope that its something like Pursley and not T what ever, cos the prognosis on that does not look good.

I will take the link to the FAB sheet with me and it seems that the tests can be done in UK now.

Royal Canin sensitive just makes him bad again as does any food it seems, he is now on boiled white fish cos he wont eat chicken any more but he is not eating so much and he had fish around 0730 and the lot I gave him about an hour or less ago is hardly touched.

He had Profender put on him last night but think that was wasted effort for both of us.

If Convenia would sort him out that would be the most wonderful news.

Thank you everyone, so very helpful............must now write this down and put it in his carrier!

[Gillian Harvey]

get the bacteriolololology test done (not quite sure how to stop spelling that one -  )

Lots of 'ologies' there lololol! 

Gill if you do try raw this food is good http://www.naturalinstinct.com/categories/Cat-Food - its complete, just thaw and serve. Or you could just try him on some raw minced beef from supermarket before you order just to make sure he'll actually eat raw  - but would try him with just a small amount to begin with.

Agree though, might be worth getting a poo sample tested 

[sheilarose]

Hi Gill, this does sound like a bacterial problem rather than IBS. As Snarf says, get the bacteriolololology test done (not quite sure how to stop spelling that one - maybe Lupin is rubbing off on me too  )
You'll need to collect a stool sample - get the vet to send you a pot through the post (so you don't have to drive out there twice) and make sure you deliver it while it's fresh fresh fresh (and after the week-end as the lab may close on Friday so your nice fresh sample will be useless by Monday). This does entail stalking the poor boy whilst he's at his most vulnerable (and smelly  ) but worth getting it right once and for all. 

Pursley had really stinky loose stools for a few months - I mean gaggingly stinky. We tossed a coin for who had to scoop it out of the tray it was so bad. With her age we feared the worst especially as her poos started to show streaks of bloody mucus.

Turns out it was an intestinal bacteria that was causing the stink and the blood was simply through her straining to empty herself of this awful stuff. The long term AB shot sorted her out  (which Neil combined with a vitamin shot to perk her up).

[Dawn F]

my tilly had terrible tummy troubles and royal canin sensitve sorted her out, she was on it for a couple of months and now eats anything

[snarf]

The smell he is making is abosolutely horrendous and am quite worried about him now as this is nearly a month like this at varying degrees.

when you go back to the vets ask them, if they havent already, to test him for Tritrichonomas Foetus http://www.fabcats.org/breeders/infosheets/tritrichomonas.html

it has a very potent and very distinctive smell and diarrhea isnt shifted by any standard remedies. they can send a test of for definitive diagnosis but its to america i think so takes a while. can be identified in fecal swaps and microscope analysis- looks like Giardia but much more mobile. seems to be more common in peds than mogs.

[Gill (sneakiefeline)]

No.

He has just had some boiled fish, or is it maybe poached!  I am no cook lol

What do you suggest Angie?

I am just worried he is not getting a complete diet now but have no idea what to do.

[Angiew]

have you tried him on some raw food?

[Gill (sneakiefeline)]

Jusat realized that Lupin hasen here a month!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Last week eventually on boiled chicken his tummy started to improve and sensitive biscuits were added , not a lot but he was starting to go backwards again.

Now he wont eat the chicken any more and doesnt really like biscuits and felix sent his tummy even more back although he had very little.

He is hungry cos he is not getting enough food so gave him some Sheba chicken this morning but he wouldnt touch it,,,,,,,,,,seems he is another fishy birman, so gave him half a tin of shebas salmon in jelly and seemed Ok, then he had the other half this afternoon and then he hit the tray and he is worse than he was

I am going to have to take him to the vets again tomorrow I think cos just dont know what I can feed him on that will solidfy his tummy and keep it that way. He didnt have a temperature and he is flying round the house playing.

The smell he is making is abosolutely horrendous and am quite worried about him now as this is nearly a month like this at varying degrees.

He also needs to be on a complete food rather than just chicken or the fish I will try him on.

[sheilarose]

oooh the beach sounds good.

Gill, i use pets at home's delivery service, if your options are limited this is a fab way of getting your stuff, and they do the discounts on-line as well as in the store (so Felix is 2 for £5 at the mo).

I always get them to bring a bulk load whenever my cat litter is running low - that way the nice man does all the lifting so I don't have to.

Free delivery over £29.

http://www.petsathome.com/shop/felix-adult-pouch-fish-select-cat-food-100gm-12-pack-14639?cm_re=barilliance-_-up sell-_-product results

[Gill (sneakiefeline)]

Thanks.

I have the lazer toy but havent used it with him yet.

I went out and left my list of foods behind but when I came back none of them are sold at my only two options, so he stays on felix at present but have some biscuits for him and he has just eaten some purely biscuits along with the rest of the half pouch he left..........he is starting to get full at times.

I was out quite a long time cos went to beach.

I have now got a lead and harness for him but he has told me he doesnt do harnesses lol......he will!!!!!!!!!!

Was going to get him some chicken and forgot grrrrrrrr

[souffle]

Sometimes overfeeding with a greedy cat can cause looseness. I would adhere strictly to the recommended feeding amounts till he settles. Maybe he is just a bit of a glutton rather than actually hungry?    Monty had an upset tum after his operation but he didn't get any antibiotics. I think it was the anaesthetic myself. As I mentioned ours have adult food.
Dreamies can make ours loose though so they only get a couple at a time.
If it doesn't settle I'd call up and ask the vet what they think. Not sure what biccies to suggest as ours have the Purina Pro one type but have used Hills in the past. They are also OK with the Eukanuba one as well.
Hope he is better soon.

[Liz]

Gill get the Laser toy from the Purrs shop it can be left on and is very useful for tiring out cats and kittens and they can play by themselves also any of the circut toys with balls in keep them occupied for hours

On the food front can you leave bowls of biscuits for him - we free feed on biscuits so none of them never have food down and we have no issues with trying to steal food, we also keep all the food out of their jjaws and claws in a cupboard saves the aggro of chewed sachets

On the carpert front spme more tacks nailed through at the door frame stops them liftingthe carpert when you shut the door on them - our stair and landing carpert is well tacked down and we have a lot of paws and claws having a go at it as its the only carpert ours have access to unless they are in the guest bedrooms!!

If also else fails shut him in the crate with food and toys and go out that way the others have access to the whole house and he can't do any damage - I tend to use the kitten pen for the junior terrorists if I am going out so they can stay on the inside/outside part of the house they usually just sleep so that should make your life easier as at some point you will want to go out and you are planning on loeaving them next year for the Olympics so start a routine now and they will get trained in to it

[Gill (sneakiefeline)]

Thank you all.

Afraid its not what I call short term as it started after he was neutered as far as I can remember. Its also not getting any better.

He is on adult food although I ttried kitten biscuits but he will be 12 months next month.

He is very very hungry and during the night was climbing up to where the pouches were and getting one down and just biting through it as they do, absolutely full of little teeth marks LOL.

To keep him fullish he needs about 4 pouches a day and of course he will be growing for the next two years. he is now growing a tummy of longer fur and a little bib is forming but he should have had these already.

He will play with almost anything that moves and have had to ban him from the bedroom again today as he keeps pouncing and chasing Ducha who is about the same size.

Its still very early days for him and Misa runs away and Sasa will not come close although during the night comes into the front room and sleeps while Lupin is shut in the bedroom with me and Ducha.

Also need a toy that moves that he can play with by himself, just waiting for Tans new supply of cubes and then he will have those.

[JackSpratt]

Definitely chicken and white fish route. Bless him, it might just be the change in his surroundings. Even when a cat looks confident and settled it can be bravado.

Rosella, is our little tabby monster OK this morning?