Topic: Can an FIV NEG mum have a POS kitten? (Read 12177 times)

Desley (booktigger) · « **Reply #24 on:** June 19, 2008, 08:07:32 AM »

it is so sad when people dump these problems on rescues, and fingers crossed for the results.

Pinkbear (Julie) · « **Reply #23 on:** June 18, 2008, 22:42:05 PM »

Quote from: Millys Mum on June 18, 2008, 17:53:47 PM

Have they any symptoms of the dreaded FIE?

Losing track a bit with posts today, but just caught this.

I haven't actually come across FIE before, but just looked up the symptoms. We don't have any sickness and the eating has been fine with most of them - Sandwich was picking up her eating quite well before she died. Some have had the trots but 2 that died - Dover and the first unnamed one - both had no tummy trouble at all. Rob the vet is still sure it's FIV but the Bristol tests will prove it for sure.

Rob also thinks the females this woman bought in were not the mothers of the Cinque Ports kittens.

I can't remember whether I said this elsewhere, but on Monday I called the woman who dumped all this grief at my door and grilled her a bit and I'm now almost convinced she's lied her head off. I think she's been having a dabble at breeding and it's all gone wrong and was passing the buck to us. It was telling when I called her that she didn't ask about how the kittens were doing - I think she knew what was going to happen to them and I think more died before I got them. I also think I got the remainder of at least 2 litters, maybe 3.

The only thing to be done now is wait to see what the Bristol tests are. I dunno how you more experienced rescue peeps go through this time after time because I've aged 10 years in the last week - no wonder poor Teresa and Dawn are sick all the time.

Millys Mum · « **Reply #22 on:** June 18, 2008, 17:53:47 PM »

Have they any symptoms of the dreaded FIE?

Desley (booktigger) · « **Reply #21 on:** June 18, 2008, 11:12:38 AM »

My vets also charge about £35, Glasgow do have a price list on their site, but then you have to add in the cost at hte vets for taking the blood, which I Think my vet said was about £8. I dont know about Bristol though. I will be keeping these two in my thoughts, this is such a sad thing, and I am also sending big hugs to Julie, this must be absolutely heartbreaking for her. Fingers crossed for their check up this morning.

Michelle (furbabystar) · « **Reply #20 on:** June 18, 2008, 11:08:24 AM »

Quote from: Canterbury_cats (Sharon) on June 18, 2008, 09:29:56 AM

Crossposted from the rescue thread.. Devasting news from Julie

am sorry to have to say we found Sandwich collapsed this morning. There wasn't time to seek help, and any movement would have distressed her more. She passed away in my arms 25 mins later. She battled right to the end and it was bloody horrible! Can someone please tell the folks on Purrs as I don't think I have the strenght to go over it again.

I'm calling Rob now and I want him to check over the last 2. I think we should go for the full Glasgow/Bristol report on them. I think Desley from Purrs may be right and we are dealing with FeLV. We need to be 100% sure as we cannot allow the last 2 to go this way

Can Desley or others let me know how much the Bristol/Glasgow test is pls?

Oh no.....I'm so sorry.....
RIP little Sandwich

I also think it Doesn't sound like FIV - but then who am i

Cant help with cost of tests because each Vet will charge a different amount but my vet costs about £35

LesleyW · « **Reply #19 on:** June 18, 2008, 11:02:20 AM »

Quote from: Pinkbear (Julie) on June 17, 2008, 18:56:35 PM

This is one of those cases that will always be a mystery. I originally had 6 kittens - all delivered to my house by the lady who had asked for help. So I haven't actually seen the location. The story was these kittens were born to a semi feral mum and the kittens were raised in a caravan the lady owns on some farmland. All of the kittens were in a bad state and the first one passed away on the first night with me. The one that was PTS had developed an awful bowel problem that wasn't responding to any treatment - and Rob the vet had tried everything he could think of. When this kitten tested FIV+ to the inhouse test, he was very ill indeed. He wouldn't have lasted to wait for Glasgow results.

What we are left with now is 3 kittens - all dramatically different sizes! We decided we needed to get this mum in PDQ for spaying as something awful was going wrong with her and her babies were nothing but skin and bone. We lent the lady a trap and asked her to try to get mum in for us.

So the same lady arrived at the vets yesterday with not one but 3 queens, 2 of which were in milk and apparently are the spitting image of the kittens I've got. They are also not feral at all and quite friendly and none have tested FIV+. My brain hurts...

Methinks this woman has been lying all along, and she's had a go at breeding and its all gone very wrong, so she just dumped the problems on us.

One thing I have learned is not to take anything anyone tells you as gospel - people seem to find it necessary to lie to you to take in their cats, even though we know we would take them whatever the story given. All it does is make the task of looking after these babies even more hard work because the history you are normally given is completely fabricated.

Canterbury_cats (Sharon) · « **Reply #18 on:** June 18, 2008, 09:29:56 AM »

Crossposted from the rescue thread.. Devasting news from Julie

am sorry to have to say we found Sandwich collapsed this morning. There wasn't time to seek help, and any movement would have distressed her more. She passed away in my arms 25 mins later. She battled right to the end and it was bloody horrible! Can someone please tell the folks on Purrs as I don't think I have the strenght to go over it again.

I'm calling Rob now and I want him to check over the last 2. I think we should go for the full Glasgow/Bristol report on them. I think Desley from Purrs may be right and we are dealing with FeLV. We need to be 100% sure as we cannot allow the last 2 to go this way

Can Desley or others let me know how much the Bristol/Glasgow test is pls?

Canterbury_cats (Sharon) · « **Reply #17 on:** June 17, 2008, 22:11:56 PM »

Thanks for that all. Actually i havent seen PB kittens but fully supported her decisions and that of the vets. although dreadfully sad anyone who deals with welfare and our phone line sooner or later has to be involved in this as they are the contacts the vets know and wish to contact.. As PB said our policy it not to PTS FIV cats or kittens.

The same applied to me on Monday if those mums (3 females) turned out to be positive.. The implications where going to be huge and i for one would of not taken the decision on myself I am to be guided by vets and colleagues, i feel terrible having the burden placed on me, so always if time, are guided by others. Indeed i am not an ideal person toget involved in these issues as i dont judge well, heart rules head.

But i do talked to our welfare person and we all agreed that if they had been pos we would rehome them, although we of course had no where to put them and i would of been onto Purrs or HQ to find a home for them... I know their condition isnt bad and although fiesty not feral, but still the very implication they were around the same area as PB kittens makes us think..

We are still hoping to catch mum.. But again if she proves to be positive what are we to do with a part feral mum who has FIV? Baring in mind the place she is living in isnt very good at all. BTW we havent heard anything about the mum as of yet.

I pray very much that they all turn out to be fine and this is just a fluke!

So no worries at all from me anyone i am always up for good discussion and advice

Desley (booktigger) · « **Reply #16 on:** June 17, 2008, 22:09:56 PM »

IT never entered my mind that you might have just pts due to FIV, if that was teh case, Sharon and MArk wouldnt have done a 50 mile trip to help an FIV+ adult, nor helped the others that have been posted on here. it just isn't what you normally think about with sick kittens, so i was just curious, as I said, FeLV springs to mind much quicker than FIV as that is passed onto kittens, and they can have a very short lifespan with it.

Pinkbear (Julie) · « **Reply #15 on:** June 17, 2008, 22:05:59 PM »

No need for a tiff over this, ladies. I can understand all sides in this.

And yes Desley, we do never learn unless we discuss.

I do believe it was a case of you had to be in our shoes at the time to understand the thought process and the way events shaped our actions. I do have 100% faith in Rob and his attitude is fantastic over any little orphan I bring to him. He doesn't give 2 hoots about professional pride or being proved right or wrong, etc, and he'd have lept off a cliff to save Hastings.

I suppose I did read a little defensive but I think Sharon and I wanted to make it clear the FIV diagnosis wasn't the reason why little Hastings was PTS. We are all very aware that some branches of CP will automatically euthanise an FIV cat, and we want to make it clear this isn't our policy at all unless other factors take the matter out of our hands.

Hope that's all clear now.

Desley (booktigger) · « **Reply #14 on:** June 17, 2008, 21:32:53 PM »

Actually, my question was purely curiosity, I have no doubts about their decision, nor was it a 'I would have done it differently', I just wondered what the thought process of the vet was. I Actually missed PB and Sharon's responses when i responded to Michelle, apologies for that. Sometimes it is only asking questions that we learn things that could then help other cats. i can understand wanting to know what was causing it, especially with the other kittens, i would have actually suspected FeLV rather than FIV though, after FIP was ruled out. I do hope the others will be fine.

blackcat · « **Reply #13 on:** June 17, 2008, 21:13:38 PM »

I have to say that the one thing I really dislike at times, is the way that people who we know would never put a cat down unneccessarily are placed in the situation of having to defend their actions by the questions of other forum members. It seems reasonable to me, to assume that from what we know of Sharon and PB that they will have made the best decision in the circumstances, and leave it at that. It is always a difficult decision, and one that leaves all of us wondering what would have happened if we had tried one more time. But the if the best interests of the kitten have been served, in the view of the people burdened with the decision, then it would be better if we accepted their decision and butted out with our 'i would have done it differently' questions (no matter how nicely they are framed).

Right, off my soap box now. Well done PB and Sharon for doing the best you could for all of these wee ones.

Desley (booktigger) · « **Reply #12 on:** June 17, 2008, 21:12:50 PM »

yes, you did, but this was an in house test. It would also depend on if your vet uses Bristol, some aren't happy when you ask for any test to be sent off rather than the in house test, my rescue's vet wasn't happy with me for that, and charged double what I would have paid at my own vet, and double what Glasgow actually ask.

Michelle (furbabystar) · « **Reply #11 on:** June 17, 2008, 21:10:02 PM »

Quote from: Desley (booktigger) on June 17, 2008, 20:25:57 PM

What I can't understand is why the vet would have tested such young kittens for FIV, the tests aren't reliable until they are 16 weeks old, and even then an inhouse test isn't 100%. IT is very rare for kittens to be born FIV+ as it isn't always spread from mum to kits through the placenta, unlike FeLV and unlike HIV

I think i have said this somewhere before - Bristol do a test that tests for the VIRUS rather than the anti-bodies and this test can be done on very young kittens. I know a lady in rescue who uses this test...I will send her an email and ask her for more details.

Pinkbear (Julie) · « **Reply #10 on:** June 17, 2008, 20:51:08 PM »

Desley, we were desparate to find some reasons why he wasn't responding. In the space of 3 days his abdomen became so distended, it was dragging along the floor and he could barely walk. Imagine a kitten the size of 4 weeks with a grapefruit in his tum - no exageration!

We scanned him and no fluid was found and he tested NEG for FIP. So the next stage Rob could think of was the FIV test. There also has to be a reason why 2 of his brothers died without warning overnight. At least one of them had been eating well and looked to be on the up. Rob said the FIV diagnosis filled in all the gaps as to what went wrong with this litter.

We're just praying it skipped the rest of them and they'll all grow up properly...

Canterbury_cats (Sharon) · « **Reply #9 on:** June 17, 2008, 20:46:31 PM »

Only one kitten has been tested and he sadly was PTS due to bowel problems.. The kittens that PB has have not yet been tested and we want be doing that until older anyhows... Sadly even without FIV the poorly kitten survival was slim and the decision was taken with vet advice after we had tried to keep him going.

All the others though small and underweight are showing no ill health now i dont think.

Desley (booktigger) · « **Reply #8 on:** June 17, 2008, 20:25:57 PM »

What I can't understand is why the vet would have tested such young kittens for FIV, the tests aren't reliable until they are 16 weeks old, and even then an inhouse test isn't 100%. IT is very rare for kittens to be born FIV+ as it isn't always spread from mum to kits through the placenta, unlike FeLV and unlike HIV

Pinkbear (Julie) · « **Reply #7 on:** June 17, 2008, 18:56:35 PM »

This is one of those cases that will always be a mystery.

I originally had 6 kittens - all delivered to my house by the lady who had asked for help. So I haven't actually seen the location. The story was these kittens were born to a semi feral mum and the kittens were raised in a caravan the lady owns on some farmland. All of the kittens were in a bad state and the first one passed away on the first night with me.

The one that was PTS had developed an awful bowel problem that wasn't responding to any treatment - and Rob the vet had tried everything he could think of. When this kitten tested FIV+ to the inhouse test, he was very ill indeed. He wouldn't have lasted to wait for Glasgow results.

What we are left with now is 3 kittens - all dramatically different sizes!

We decided we needed to get this mum in PDQ for spaying as something awful was going wrong with her and her babies were nothing but skin and bone.

We lent the lady a trap and asked her to try to get mum in for us.

So the same lady arrived at the vets yesterday with not one but 3 queens, 2 of which were in milk and apparently are the spitting image of the kittens I've got.

They are also not feral at all and quite friendly and none have tested FIV+. My brain hurts...

Methinks this woman has been lying all along, and she's had a go at breeding and its all gone very wrong, so she just dumped the problems on us.

Canterbury_cats (Sharon) · « **Reply #6 on:** June 17, 2008, 17:37:13 PM »

I am sure that PB will post later but yesterday we took in 3 females of which two may of been mums (or big sisters) of PB latest litter of which one was found to be so poorly the vets tested for FIV etc and he proved to be positive, he was sadly PTS not because of FIV but because of his other conditions that were making his little life difficult to live.

.. None of the other kittens have been tested yet.. although all unweight they seem to be doing better in PB care. We do think we have 3 kittens from 2 different litters here as the sizes of them are so different..

The three females are all around 14 months old, all proved to be neg for FIV (thank goodness)..They are from the same location and place as PB litter.. They were tested in house!

We aim to test kittens that PB has in a few weeks time.. But we are amazed at this and thought the worse... for the females. They have since been spayed and are now in our care. Called Pandora, Delphi and Hera (all Greek godesses this time!)

Anyone have any ideas?

If these are not the mums then the mum is out their and she must be a carrier of FIV otherwise how does the kitten that proved to be pos for FIV catch it?

Millys Mum · « **Reply #5 on:** June 17, 2008, 17:11:47 PM »

What test did your little one have julie? As they are so young he may have not had the actual disease.

Michelle (furbabystar) · « **Reply #4 on:** June 16, 2008, 21:52:05 PM »

I have been lead to believe that if Mum was negative then the kittens would be negative too !
Kittens pick FIV up through the mothers milk so surely she would have to be postive for the kitten to be postive ?

Desley (booktigger) · « **Reply #3 on:** June 16, 2008, 21:38:09 PM »

FIV isn't passed on from mum to kits through the placenta, but they can get antibodies from her milk, so if mum and kits are together, it isn't advised to test before kits are 16 weeks old so that they no longer have the antibodies in their system. I would say it was a different mum to be honest

ccmacey · « **Reply #2 on:** June 16, 2008, 21:32:27 PM »

I thought they could only catch it from their mums? But maybe if they have been separated from her they could of picked it up from someone else.

Pinkbear (Julie) · « **Reply #1 on:** June 16, 2008, 21:10:57 PM »

Well...?

We are in the middle of dealing with a situation and trying to figure out if the female is definitely the mum of the litter I'm caring for. One of the kittens tested positive but mum is negative. Does anyone know for sure?

Author Topic: Can an FIV NEG mum have a POS kitten? (Read 12177 times)

ccmacey