Purrs In Our Hearts - Cat Forum UK
Cat General => General Cat Chat => Topic started by: CoolCyberCats on December 09, 2009, 19:55:59 PM
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Hi all. Not to spart any arguments here, but I am wondering on the popular beliefe on allowing cats outside. This topic has sparked arguments on my site and others. I just want opinions and I will not argue or preach with anyone after I post this.
My opinion:
Cats that are not outdoors to begin with should remain inside. Some of my arguments include:
1. They are not native to the UK or USA really.
2. The can pose a hazard to drivers.
3. They can pose a danger to other wildlife.
4. They can pose a health hazard to people (assuming they attack you for some reason).
5. (more USA based) Declawed cats cannot defend themselves out doors.
6. If they are not spayed or neutered they are increasing the feral and stray populations and in the end causing more cats to be euthenized.
7. The pose a health risk to other domestic pets (especially other cats).
8. The life span of an outdoor cat (part or full time) is greatly reduced.
9. Other wildlife and other outdoor domestic pets pose a health danger to your cat.
Our cats are all indoor only. I admit it can be a challenge to provide enough space and things to do around the house to keep your cat physically and mentally challenged, but I do. Two things I like to suggest to people who have limited space in the house for a condo or running space...
1. Kitty Walk Cozy Climber: http://www.kittywalk.com/climber_taupe.asp (http://www.kittywalk.com/climber_taupe.asp). This "condo" hangs on your door! I used to sell Kitty Walk products, but no longer do. WE have one of the Kozy Climbers on our front door. (they also make outdoor enclosures and runs!)
2. KatWallks: http://www.katwallks.com/ (http://www.katwallks.com/) I LOVE these! We have a wall set up so the cats can zig-zag up the wall where they can run to the left to a balcony or to the right to another balcony. They love it and it is wild to watch.
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Afraid we may have to watch this very carefully cos it is one of the very sensitive areas on Purrs and could indeed spark trouble.
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Well here at the Clan Cats we have Indoor only, Indoor/Outdoor but are in every night and my happy band of outdoor ferals
We have 46 Cats currently living happily here at the Clan a mixture of domestic and ferals and my beloved rescue ragdoll - all are lifes waifs and strays and some of my indoor ferals are not for nice notrmal homes but are happy here with us
We do live in a very rural location in the north east of Scotland and are a mile of a C road with no name and share our track with one other house who also have cats and a resident feral - all these cats have their own pets the doggies! :shocked:
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Pose a health hazard to people because they might attack you?!! - well its a new one on me :rofl: Um, cats arent native to the UK? why does that mean they should be kept indoors?
All my cats have access to outdoors, always have and always will. They don't roam, they don't attack people, but they can defend themselves (because we don't have the barbaric practice of declawing in the UK), they are spayed and neutered and their health has never been affected by other wildlife and other domestic pets. My oldest cat was 20 when she died - pretty good lifespan I'd say, for a cat who had access to the outdoors all her life.
My only concern, and one you actually havent mentioned, is the dangers cars pose to cats - and thats the reason, many cat owners now cat proof their gardens, so that cats can be safe but still enjoy the great outdoors.
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Pose a health hazard to people because they might attack you?!! - well its a new one on me :
Yup. Years and years ago I was attacked by a cat. Damn thing scratched me up well and I was a bloody mess. No, I was not playing with it initially. I was like 12 and it came running at me and just attacked. Not that this type of thing happend often...
(because we don't have the barbaric practice of declawing in the UK)
I do not agree with the practice and would never consider it. Do keep in mind that just because it is not a standard practice int eh UK does not mean that if it were allowed that people would not do it, sadly. I am very glad that as a whole it is not does out there though.
My oldest cat was 20 when she died - pretty good lifespan I'd say, for a cat who had access to the outdoors all her life.
Yes, that is a fantastic age for an outdoor cat. Keep in ind I can only pull facts from my head on USA based owners and cats. Here that is the exception for an outdoor cat. My sister was one with an older cat that was an indoor/outdoor cat. Pumpkin had a pet door and wandered in and out at will. She lived to be 22.
My only concern, and one you actually havent mentioned, is the dangers cars pose to cats - and thats the reason, many cat owners now cat proof their gardens, so that cats can be safe but still enjoy the great outdoors.
I did mention drivers and assumed the reverse point. Perhaps I should have said it.
Also animal cruelty. They just has a case out here against 2 teens who murdered over 30 cats in rather horrible ways that I will not get into here. :(
If a cat cannot get out of an enclosure or area, I think that it is great for the cat to be there if they want to be. I like that idea a lot. Out where I am, the area needs a top as well or an eagle or coyote may take the cats. That has happened to several people we know. :(
In the end I know my opinion would sit well with everyone, but that is okay. Life would be dull if we all agreed on everything, huh? ;) In the end the most important thing is the people be a responsable pet owner and love and car for their pets. I prefer that one over indoor or outdoor. :)
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My last boy Max, and my current boy Poot are both indoor only.
Primarily due to being FIV+, but to be honest, I'd run with indoor even if they didn't have that, I'm close to a main road, and a park where the local chavs seem to hang out, I just don't feel they'd be safe :shy:
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where the local chavs seem to hang out, I just don't feel they'd be safe
I am not familiar with the term "chavs". I need a Brit to Yank translation please. ;)
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My cat is indoor only - a choice I made based on a number of things. It is certainly not a common choice in the UK. You'll find that the general population see cats to be free roaming creatures and many see keeping cats indoors as cruel. You'll no doubt find a number of indoor only homes here on Purrs. Out in the real world though its rare. I believe we are the complete opposite to the USA.
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where the local chavs seem to hang out, I just don't feel they'd be safe
I am not familiar with the term "chavs". I need a Brit to Yank translation please. ;)
CHAV ....
Chav (pronounced /ˈtʃæv/ (CHAV)) is a term applied to certain young people in the United Kingdom. The stereotypical "chav"—known also as a charver in North East England[1]—is an aggressive teenager, typically unemployed or of working class background,[2] who repeatedly engages in anti-social behaviour,[2] such as street drinking, drug abuse and rowdiness, or other forms of juvenile delinquency. "Chavs" stereotypically wear tracksuits and hoodies made by brands such as Nike, Reebok, Burberry and Adidas
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where the local chavs seem to hang out, I just don't feel they'd be safe
I am not familiar with the term "chavs". I need a Brit to Yank translation please. ;)
:rofl: :rofl:
I'm not tellin! :evillaugh:
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Mine are allowed out in daylight , and are shut in from usk till dawn!( If I can cartch em! :evillaugh:)
Beavis has outdoor access but much prefers to be inside -
Jerry and Gizzy's mood changes with the weather , and Fred-cat being Ex Stray does not like being shut in.
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I believe we are the complete opposite to the USA.
I am not sure on that. Each state here can often be isolated like a country in behavior and beliefs. For example, here in Montana I would say the majority will side with they belong outdoors. My big issue with that one here is in the winter. (see the post I made elsewhere here about Scott, the jerk here and his cats) Of course here in Montana, at leasr where I live, the rednecks also allow their dogs to run loose with no tags! I have almost hit a beagle here several times last months alone. Out closest neighbor had a dog named Jake who was free. Jake was a sweet thing and always hung out with us at our home. He loved to go for walks with us too. One day he was taken by a bear. :( But the attitude here in Montana (and likely the neighboring states) is that a pet is a possession and do with it what you like. :(
When I lived in New Jersey I rarely saw cats outside. Of course that is the most densley populated state by square mile too, and Montana is the least in the lower 48.
Not sure about the thought in California. By the pics of people I see I think they like to carry small cats and dogs in purses. ;)
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Thanks for the explanation of the term Michelle. :)
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Hmm, have to say that is interesting then. When I was researching indoor vs outdoor a lot of American sites came up and they all said the USA and UK are very different in regards to this debate. I'm a member of a number of American sites and it is always indoor cats when the subject comes up. Outdoor ones are always barn cats rather than pets. You walk around the neighbourhoods here and there are always cats around ... Can honestly say I've not seen a cat on the streets in the USA ... I've travelled around New Jersey, New York, Tennessee, Alabama and Georgia. I'm slowly working my way around the rest lol!
I take your word for it, it just doesn't quite tally with what I've read or been told.
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All my cats have unrestricted access to the outside world
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Den + Memphis,
Sadly I see dead cats on the roads here far too often. If the majority of people in Montana thought indoor only then I wond not see them. But I really believe it depens on where you are. Yes, there are tons of barn cats in Montana, but likely not in NJ because of the lack of farms and wide open space (well, eastern New Jersey at least). A co-worker here is always complaining about her neighbor's cat digging up her garden.
But the midset can differ here from state to state.
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Something else I wanted to add, which is utterly random. Is how rare fenced gardens in the USA seem to be. Here everyone has fences, hedges or walls around their back gardens. Usually 6ft but can be smaller. Over the years reading posts about dogs and seeing pictures 3/4 do not have physical fences. Seen loads of ones with invisible fences (which I hate with a passion). Its just so noticeable to me .. So its either the norm or just a border collie owners quirk. Saying that though even my friends and their neighbours are fenceless too.
Random observation over.
See I've never heard an American person moaning about outdoor cats. Dogs yes, lots of times. Lol I'm going to go and ask everyone now just out of curiosity. Not that I don't believe you because I do ... I've never met anyone from Montana before.
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Mine also have 24hr access via the catflap, im not sure they have ever attacked anyone although they do love to sit on the neighbours car :naughty:
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:shocked: I can't get to the bottom of the posting window.
Was trying to say I've not met anyone from Montana that I could ask.
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This is a difficult topic but a very good one for discussion. It is becoming more and more popular to have indoor cats but we also still love the "idea" that they have their freedom to roam when they want to.
I was brought up with dogs and never been without an animal in my life so when i moved to my 1st flat and as i went out to work every day, i didn't think it was right situation for a dog so thought i would adopt two cats. I didn't know much about cats back then only about dogs. I have always loved to treat my furballs (the cats, not the little things they cough up! :evillaugh: ) as if they were "guests" in my home and for them to decide when they wanted to go out or stay in. So i went with the main of the cats owners (this was years ago) and got a cat flap and my three cats could go out from 2nd injections & neutering -day and night if wanted. I loved this as they could do as they pleased when i was at work etc they were very happy cats (oh except my Ben who was being bullied a bit by my Bow but i didn't realise it back then! ) A total cat slave novice!! :stupid: Just thought you love and treat them the same as dogs!!
I lived in a built up area with traffic all around. I was so lucky back then. None of my babes got hurt outside, none got run over (I did loose Bow from illness :( ) . I guess they got traffic wize as there was constant traffic all about or i was just so lucky!!
When i moved out with my now Hubby to the country, just outside of the New forest area i thought they are going to love it here (Ben & Arnie) There are lots of fields etc
Yes they loved it but 1st i lost my Arnie at 7 years old. He just went missing and i have never know to this day what happened to him :( My Ben lived for another 5 years and died of Oral cancer but he never got run over round here. I guess he was anervious cat and didn't go far?
Anyhoo, After a while when i lost ben, I got two wonderful little Ginge and white monkeys from CP (Ochi & Rio) had no prob with not thinking they shouldn't go out as up till them i had no RTA with any of my cats (we think Arnie was stolen as he was a Blue Burmese :( ).
Bad times started around here! Ochi was the 1st to be killed in an rta on the road just over my back garden. The feilds are across that road and although it's not a partically main road out side of rush hour & 30mph limit, they speed down there :( He was 18mths old.
Little Gizzymo was adopted (found left in a bag in the feilds) so he joined our family to keep Rio company. It was then i decided to make our garden Cat poofed. The ups et , pain and shock of loosing my darlin Ochi so suddenly, i wanted that never to happen to Rio and now Gizzymo.
I tried my hardest to make Rio (who was used to going out for a long time) happy kust in the garden but he was so depressed and to see him like that broke my heart. I ended up letting him out at times in the day. I even started to go out with him at 5am to 7am in the morning to make sure he never went nesr the road!
Time moves on and i started to think that maybe Ochi's accident was a one off. It was very hard for me and i felt in a no won situation ie either seeing Rio depressed and locked in or the danger of letting him out. The descion i made then i will never forgive myself for. It was ok for 2 years. They both went out, lived life to the full and were very happy cats. Pampered and sploit most defiantely!! :Luv:
One day Rio never came home, I eventually fouind him in the roadside bushes. :'( :'( :'( He was my sole cat. :'( :'( :'( :'(
I then kept Gizzy in. Tried so hard for months but ended up with the same hard descision as with Rio when Ochi died. Gizzt was worse than Rio had been, so depressed that he couldn't go out. Purrs peep will know the anquish i wen through either seeing him so upset or letting him be happy as an outside/indoor cat again. The descion i made agin was with Gizzy's happiness. He died a week later.
My two lads now i have totally kept as indoor garden only cats. They are save as they will never be going outside. The road is just too temping to cross esp as it is quiet at times. They have known no different and are ok happy. I do feel guilty as i know they would love to go out. They do see the other cats out in the neighbourhood and look out at the window to them. I try every day to think of different things but they do get board. I do feel guilty that they could have a happier life being allowed out but that will only happen if we move away to a safer area.
So what i am really trying to say is
I have been on both sides here.
In my honest opinion, i love my cats to have their freedom to roam but only if the area is away from roads and is safer to do so.
Cats have natural instints to hunt ie they are made to catch & Kill prey. None of us can take that out of them and for indoor cats it is so important to forfill that instict or we are taking away their very nature.
Hey thats why we have the Da birdy!!!!
One day i will win the lotto and have a 2acre land all cat proofed with a little forest in the middle just for my babes!! :wish: Best of both worlds that is!!!
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Something else I wanted to add, which is utterly random. Is how rare fenced gardens in the USA seem to be.
At a guess it is just size of space. Hmm... Ahh, in the 80's I was dating a gal from Morden in the UK. She would live with me for a while (3 to 6 months at a pop) and I would go there for a while. I remember her always noting how big things were. Roads, cars, yards. So I suppose that since we started with so much space between homes, we developed the mentality to not need a fence and it became ingrained in the US mentality. We do have them though. Heck, I tried to put up a garden here and had to fence it in to prevent the deer from reducing it to a pile of dirt.
Just my guess on it.
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:shocked: I can't get to the bottom of the posting window.
Was trying to say I've not met anyone from Montana that I could ask.
I have the same damn issue whether I use IE8 or Firefox. I have just taken to entering my post in a text editor and then pasting it in the message window. That worked for me just fine. ;)
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Yup. Years and years ago I was attacked by a cat. Damn thing scratched me up well and I was a bloody mess. No, I was not playing with it initially. I was like 12 and it came running at me and just attacked. Not that this type of thing happend often...
Cats can scratch you whether they are indoors or outdoors - I don't see the logic that keeping them indoors is going to prevent them scratching people. :-:
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In my ideal world all cats would have the option of going outside, be that free access via a catflap or into a enclosed run with things to climb and scratch. HOWEVER there are cats that need to remain indoors for their own health/ safety (e.g. deaf) or for the heath/ safety of other cats (e.g. FIV) and there are cats who prefer their home comforts! I previously lived in a village cottage and had two rescue cats that adored the outdoor life, hunting in the fields and sunning themselves in our garden. When I split with my ex-husband I made the agonising decision to leave them in that perfect place. :'( Now I have a flat and another rescue cat, Noah, who was specially chosen for me by Adel CP as he cannot go outside for his own health (pododermatitis) and actually shows NO interest in what is beyond the front door!
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:shocked: I can't get to the bottom of the posting window.
Was trying to say I've not met anyone from Montana that I could ask.
I have the same damn issue whether I use IE8 or Firefox. I have just taken to entering my post in a text editor and then pasting it in the message window. That worked for me just fine. ;)
I'm finding it ok but there are some funiies going on tonight! Hey it's on a USA server that's prob why!!! ;) :evillaugh: :hug:
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I again can see both sides of this. My first cat Lucy, when I was a child had cat flap access and came and went as she liked. We inherited her from a lady down the road and she was used to going out. She died aged approximately 16 or 17 (we never knew for sure how old she was).
Several years after Lucy died I brought a little grey bundle called Casper home, he was 12 weeks old and very dinky. He stayed indoors until he was neutered and then he was allowed cat flap access like Lucy had been. We had quite a big garden and a quiet dead end lane behind but Casper was a wanderer. We lost him for several days once when we think he got shut in someones garage.
Several years later, I moved out into a maisonette in a quiet area and had planned to take Casper with me, but mum was rather attached to him so I adopted 2 ginger ninjas from the local RSPCA. I originally planned to let them out freely whenever we were home (we have no back door so no cat flap). Just under a year later I had a call from mum to say that Casper had been hit by a car and was at the emergancy vets. Luckily he pulled through but lost a back leg as a result of the accident and although he is pretty much back to his old self now, the first few months were incredibly painful, both for him and us. Unfortuantely he is a defiant cat and no amount of trying will keep him in now that he is all better. He breaks out of all kinds of cat flap blockades!
My girls started off going out fairly regularly when we were home and in the hours of daylight but gradually they have been less and less keen on going out and at the moment if they get out when we come through the door, they almost always turn round and come back in. They don't seem unhappy at all and enjoy their cat tree immensely as well as da bird. I feel so much more secure knowing where they are and that they are safe, but one day I would like a big cat proofed garden so that they could be outside and safe.
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Wow, I can see I did hit a few nerves and sparked some posts. ;)
So let me ask a couple questions:
1. What is the difference between allowing a dog to roam outside and a cat? To keep this fair say dogs under 20lbs.
2. If you believe in allowing cats outside, does your belief change if the cat is larger? Would it be okay for a 20lbs Maine coon? How about a 30lbs Savannah F1 or F2?
THanks for all the great opinions, input and ideas. Oh, did anyone look over the KittyWalks stuff and Katwallks? What did you think? The KittyWalks people have some great outdoor cat runners. Back when I did sell them several customers in the UK bought them for their gardens! I have been searching for the images one elderly UL customer sent of her cat in the TOwn & Country unit in her garden. She really liked it. I cannot find the images. If I do I'll post them.
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Cant vote cos dont agree with any of the 4 lol.
My 4 can all go out when they want thro the flap and there is a field across a track at the back,
Because of the background of my 2 moggies , both are scared of the road and the traffic sounds. I have found Sasa across the road sitting in the gate of the school once a couple of years ago and think she was chased by wicked ginger who lived down the road and although she is semi feral and I cant touch her and she runs away if I get too close, I think she was waiting for me to rescue her.
It was 0200 in the morning and I saw a white blob across road from bedroom window and stormed down stairs , no shoes and called her from my side of road. There virtually no traffic at that time but the busier road is the other side of the school.
I think I may have gone into the middle of the road but didnt want her to run away from me cos would be heading to the busy road and my heart was in mouth cos I was so scared she would run. She decided I think that as I was in road it was alright for her to come back but of course then went 2 gardens up.
Next problem was how to get her back to my house! She decided she wanted to do that too and then horror, how was she going to get back over the big wall and gate!
Easy peasy she hopped onto small wall and then onto wheelie bin and onto top of big wall and more horrors cos Misa was sitting up there!
She went into the back and Misa too, think Misa was looking for his mate but too scared to climb down thank goodness.
It haunted me foor ages and always having a go at Misa for climbing up on the wall cos he likes to show off and can see across gardens from there but Sasa has never gone over again and hissy spitty ginger passed to the bridge a year ago.
My two birmans hardly ever go out any more by choice, its too wet and cold out there and they are 16yrs.
Back in London I had a cat who was dumped I think and she was also an out door cat and all cats in the area seemed to come and visit!
She knew her way from front door up the road and back down all the gardens home. She once rushed out of the dront door and was too quick for me and watched her walk up the road and next thing I knew she was banging on the kitchen window for me to bring her in on my shoulder......the cat flap was beneath her if she knew I was in :rofl: :rofl:
That was before Cat Chat and all the London cats seem to roam the area, one lovely big B&W used to visit me every night by crossing a road and then going home the same way, right till the day I left. Still think about him. :(
I never saw any RTA cats although the road was jammed with cars but lived a way fronm a very busy 24/7 main road and knew a colony of ferals and their kittens lived in another road about 5 mins away.
I believe the traffic is the most dangerous thing for them and love to see cats running free.
We are very different to the States cos we are so much smaller and we dont have very much freeroaming dangerous wild life like you do.
Also many americans who have come onto Purrs in the past have had very different attitude to cats than you and did not like what we said about some common practices in your country. You have so many more people than us and we believe that cats are a friend, a member of the family, not an accessory so consequently they left us .
I dont think you are like that at all but problems and things that happen in the States are not often the same over here, the two countries are very different in many ways.
I have no problem typing all I need in the box :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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Q1 - the law. Cats are protected in that they are allowed to free roam. Dogs are not, they have to be controlled. Not saying if I agree with this or not , but everyone who knows me knows which side I'm on in the cats Vs dog debate :naughty:
It is late and way past my bed time. I shall return to this thread in the morning.
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Forgot about those numbers lol
1. They are not native to the UK or USA really.
AS DEn says they are protected under the law here and this is really irrelevant
2. The can pose a hazard to drivers.
No thats the wrong way round drivers pose a hazard to them!
3. They can pose a danger to other wildlife.
There are more than enough mice etc to cope
4. They can pose a health hazard to people (assuming they attack you for some reason).
No health hazard here, cats do not usually attack humans in this country and the UK is rabies free
5. (more USA based) Declawed cats cannot defend themselves out doors.
No trelevant here cos declawing is illegal
6. If they are not spayed or neutered they are increasing the feral and stray populations and in the end causing more cats to be euthenized.
Hopefully most pet cats are neautered here but of course there are some owners who are either back stret breeding or just dont understand about this. We do not have the big places that just kill cats over here in large numbers like the States although we know there are many so called rescues who do not have a no kill policy.
Cp in particular do a lot of neutering of feral colonies here
7. The pose a health risk to other domestic pets (especially other cats).
I dont think they do!
8. The life span of an outdoor cat (part or full time) is greatly reduced.
Total rubbish ......sorry! but just not true in this country. Kocka went to the bridge at 20 yrs old from ill health and was a cat who roamed where evr she wanted.
9. Other wildlife and other outdoor domestic pets pose a health danger to your cat
Not in this country, we dont have the sort of wildlife you have
Ummmmmm have to say on balance dont agree with any of this cos although it maybe true in your country.
I dont think its really very helpful to make these statements in a foreign country cos every country is different and we are not comparing like with like.
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I can't vote either as don't agree with any of the choices :(. Our cats are allowed 24/7 access through cat flap.
It's a very difficult one but main argument in my book for indoor only is danger to cats through traffic. It is something that worries me a great deal as we lost Aslan to the road in 2006 but, apart from Dinah, our current lot don't seem to wander out the front unless I am in front garden and then I lock them in until I've finished whatever I'm doing.
Before our current furries, the final ages of our 3 previous "indoor/outdoor" cats was 3 (Aslan), 18, 19 and almost 21.
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Ya know most of my friends here incl my hubby think that cats should freeroaming and it's cruel to keep them "locked up" as they say no matter what. It is thier oppion and fine if thats what they think. :) I don't agree with them because of the danger in the area we live in at the mo. My neighbours had 5 cats and two within the last 6 months have been killed on the road One of them only this am :( :(
We in Uk generally still think cats should be freeroaming. That is a long tradision in UK thinking that way.
We used to think the same about dogs but with dogs ie free to roam, we hoomans have domesticated for much much longer than the cat and so gradualy it became common (ie the norm) not to let dogs freeroam. I remember when i was very little about 3 we had a golden lab and he was allowed out when he wanted, He used to go off and have his daily visits with shop owners and people who adored him. The shop was a butchers and Nelson got his marrow bone everyday from them and brought it back home to eat.
We now would never let our dogs go free like that!!
One my local friends i was having the same indoor /outdoor conversation with and i was trying to get her to understand why i don't let my cats out now. I said to her what is the reason we don't let dogs out on their own?
She said cause they could get hurt and it's not safe with traffic etc.......
Well i said surely it's it the same for cats!!!
The big diff in our opionions is tradition i think. I bet in a few years 50 or more that opinion or "Norm thinking" may change about cats and we think the same about them as we do our dogs now?!!
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Pepsi is an indoor only cat, there is a number of reasons for this:
When she was rescued she was extremely nervous and shy, I think if she went outside she'd be scared to death. Carol at the Cat Orphanage also believed she was an indoor only cat in her old home so wouldn't 'miss' it as she'd never been outside to begin with.
We live fairly close to a big main road and junction, about 5 minutes away by foot.
According to one of the fosterers living in our area, the place where we live is quite well known for bad things happening to wandering cats >:( Thinking about it, I've been living in the area since August, and have only ever seen one cat wandering the streets.
We don't have a garden, only an awful yard thing.
I think Pepsi is perfectly happy being indoors only, she never seems to be bothered about going outside at all. When I was looking for a rescue cat I requested one that was to be indoors only. I'd never take in a cat that had been used to being allowed to roam around freely and keep them inside, infact we saw a lovely cat called Alfie, and all that was stopping me from bringing him home was the fact that he was acting as though he'd been an outdoor cat in his old home.
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Well, all of mine are allowed in the back garden -its pretty big and has a 6ft fence all the way round which they are too old/lazy to think about climbing .
Winston is the only one allowed round the front as when he was younger -if i tried to stop him -he would just jump the 6 ft gate - then he realised i would worry he would hurt himself -so now waits for me to open it .
He is then watched out of the window to see where he goes - always one of the end gardens ( i live on a old RAF site and at present there is no through road ,so is fairly quiet and loads of cats round here ) -if he isn''t back within 10mins -i go and fetch him back and then he goes in the back garden with the others -occasionally he is allowed to sit out the front or in his cat house with me constantly keeping an eye on him every 5 mins to check he is still there .
If i see him wander off -he gets fetched back !!!
They are all in by 8pm in winter and 10.30pm in summer .
The back door is open all day for them to come and go as they please -unless its raining ! Then they are all in of their own accord.
The neighbours probably think i am mad ,as i go looking for Winston and talking to him when i fetch him home the 100yds !! - or telling him off if he has tried to bully another cat thats in its own garden ! Winston thinks he owns all the gardens round here and he is a big boy !!!!
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Again, I can't vote as I don't think I agree with any of the statements. Outside access (in the UK) can be safe and appropriate sometimes and not at others. People living near dangerous roads or other hazards should really concider building cat run or cat proofing their gardens. People with cats carrying FIV should also keep their cats isolated from other cats, and also away from potential sources of infection considering compromised inmunity issues. For others living in rural or quiet areas I see my reason why a cat shouldn't be allowed it's freedom. ;)
My own cats have limited outside access and can travel no more than 3 gardens away before they come across impassable barriers. They can't get to the road no matter which direction they go as we live in a square terrace with no road access from any of the adjoining houses. In effect it's a giant cat proof encompassing several houses. So not sure if that classes them as outdoor cats or not. :evillaugh:
I've heard the "they're not native animals" argument before and it doesn't hold logic. Mankind has developed, altered and adjusted animal genetics to such an extent that none can really be concidered 'native'. Just take a look at your own (USA) enormous stock of dairy and beef cattle and compare those to the breed standards in existance 100 years ago. :innocent:
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There are a couple points brought up that I want to ask about and comment on now.
1. Non-native species not holding water. Well, perhaps not to you all there. I am not sure eon the history of introduction of a non-native species there, but here and in other places the consequences was the loss or almost total loss of a native species. In the USA I can think of a few that have been problematic, including the English Sparrow, Starlings, Kudzu, Buckthorn, asian muscles, Africanized bees and a lot more. Off the top of my head I believe Australia has a big problem with rabbits. There are some polar islands where cats were left when the post were abandoned and the came close to wiping out the native bird population. I do not fault the non-native animals for they are just living and surviving. I fault the people who introduced them, sometimes by mistake and others with intent to do something else. But history shows the introduction of species can devastate an area or animal population or country. How would you feel about the introduction of raccoons to the UK? I would bet over time it would cause a major problem. (since raccoons were native to North America I am assuming this has not been done there, at least I hope not) So my point is simply that in a more natural ecosystem the introduction of a foreign species can be very harmful in the long run.
2. When I asked about allowing dogs some simply said it was not allowed, against the law. Well, I was not looking for clarification of K laws. I wanted to know your personal opinion on that. So let me modify the question, assuming it were not against the law….
3. Several have brought up closed gardens or groups of gardens. Good point, I had forgotten that many places there have the (I am not sure of the proper term) row houses and the yards in many were walled. Given that and given a cat cannot get over the wall I would consider allowing my cat out IF they wanted. My cat ^Hamlet^ would have loved that. As it was in New Jersey I had set up a rope from one end of the deck to the other and he wore a harness and it was connected to the rope, so he could roam around. But I never left him alone and did not feel safe doing so. So again let me modify the whole question on allowing cats out…. Assuming you lived in a well populated area in a house with a small unfenced yard and knowing your cat could roam 35 miles away if he chose to, would you let it out? My thought is perhaps that is a key difference on this. Not a lot of closed in yards out here where your cat cannot get out.
Personally I am enjoying the interactions and responses. :) Thank you for indulging me.
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My cats are allowed out but they are safe - infact they only go out in the garden. I don't think cats should be allowed to roam freely if near roads - too many getting lost to the road and I know I'd be devastated if it happened to one of mine.
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All four of mine are indoor only, and I wouldn't let them out unless I had a secure garden.
I am from Baltimore Maryland though so my opinion is more American than English.
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Outside access (in the UK) can be safe and appropriate sometimes and not at others. People living near dangerous roads or other hazards should really concider building cat run or cat proofing their gardens. People with cats carrying FIV should also keep their cats isolated from other cats, and also away from potential sources of infection considering compromised inmunity issues. For others living in rural or quiet areas I see my reason why a cat shouldn't be allowed it's freedom. ;)
That pretty much sums up my view. We live in a quiet area; chosen specifically with cats in mind 20 years ago altho still lost Aslan to RTA in 2006. Whilst I would love to keep ours in at night, Freddie simply will not allow it and that's an end to it. Trying to allow him 24/7 access and not the other 5 just wouldn't work.
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I too haven't voted as I don't feel any apply to me.
My boys are mainly indoor cats, but they have supervised access outside.
Jess came to us as indoor only, as he was nervous and hadnever been out. Milo came from rescue and was a stray.
We wanted indoor cats as we naively thought they would be easier (how wrong were we), we also live on a road which isn't really busy but is used as a cut though. There is also a park at the end of the road and kids hang out there and I don't trust them either.
After we had Jess a few months we started taking him out on a harness we did this for a year and on the whole he was a good boy. Milo also learnt to go out on a harness but wasn't as good on it as Jess was. So we decided to let them off and see what happens. Jess is so good we can now leave him outside on his own (no cat proofing) and he'll just lay in the sun and wonder about his never shown any interest in going futher and I don't think he will. Jess is quite scared of our neighbours (we have a low fence one side, but I know if either boy got over they wouldn't worry) Milo likes to be fussed by them but only if we are holding him, but he is weary of them and I like it this way. Milo however does climb the trees, and charge about and I wouldn't leave him on his own, he has walked along the back fence before :-:.
Its funny because neither want to go out in the evening at the moment as they know its dark but come the weekends they are begging to go out we open the door then they realise the sun isn't blaring down and come back in, occasionally they will have a wander but they aren't fussed.
I think each cat is very different and there is no set rules you have to go along with and compromise on what the cat wants and what is best for them. I have had people comment on me our situation and how it is wrong, but I know my cats and what works for us.
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None relevant to me either. Mine go out the back but I certainly wouldn't let them out the front as there is a road.
I had to stop for a cat crossing a side street the other day. I drive slowly in back streets but not everyone does. Also knowing what some people are like now - my friend Cathie says on more than one occasion, she has seen "people" swerve to purposely hit foxes, pheasants etc crossing road - so I'm sure cats are fair game for low-life idiots >:(
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I have one cat who I wuld dearly love to be an indoor cat - yes, he is a danger (to himself) as he sits in the road, and comes to meet my car and I worry about him even though we're on a quiet estate.
We live in the country, on a quiet estate (just one road, a mile outside the rest of the village) with fields and woods behind us. The cats love it there - yes, they do hunt but we seem to have cornered the world's population of sparrows (and I'd say 99.999% of the prey brought in is voles) and there is, generally, a very healthy bird population in the area. If we lived in a town, that would be a very different matter and I would make the garden completely enclosed so they couldn't go out/hunt/sit in the road. Unfortunately, because of the layout of the part of the estate we're on, it is impossible to enclose the garden without also doing next door's (and stopping him getting in/out easily, too).
I don't put collars on mine - have seen too many near misses with cats and even quick release collars - but they do come in at night and are in during the day if me or OH aren't at home. They probably spend an hour out a day in winter, at most, and perhaps 3 or 4 hours in summer. Although Baldrick will go out in the early hours of the morning, he normally comes back in within half an hour and then doesn't go back out until the afternoon. They are in by 7pm in winter, and unless I can't catch one (very rare), 9pm or earlier in summer.
I also have 3 yard cats who are outdoors only cats (although the oldest seems determined to sleep in the stable 24/7!). Of course keeping them inside would be pointless, they are partly there to keep the mice down (they seem to be inviting rats iin though :censored:). Well, if I'm honest I started feeding them because I wanted to encourage them into the stable so I had cats around me at the yard, too - the mouse control is a bonus ;) The oldest is one who was completely feral until 2 years ago, and is at least 17 years old now (probably older).
I don't see how the non-native species comment can be justified, TBH. Are humans native? ;) And I've seen far more wildlife issues caused by humans than cats, I think I've killed more birds when I've been driving than my cats do (not deliberately, I should say) when they fly into the car :( And the damage caused by cutting hedges too early, when birds are still nesting, far outweighs the damage cats can do IMO (some farmers where I am start hedge cutting on 1st August regardless of what is still nesting).
I agree with Leanne that cats are all very different - Baldrick was supposed to be an indoor cat only but as soon as he could manage the stairs (long before he was old enough to go out anyway, really) he wanted to go out, and keeping him on a lead caused more problems than it solved! If all mine were hunting vast numbers of birds, I would look at ways of stoppng that. Also, I have spoken to our non-cat owning neighbours about the cats using gardens as litter trays, and they aren't bothered about that at all (again, I know I'm very lucky in that respect with where we are). As far as I know none of mine have ever attacked a person, although again Baldrick would be the one to do that as he's so friendly, all the kids on the estate maul him around. But he doesn't care (and the one time he scratched one by accident, her parent just said it serves her right!), and he's so sociable that everyone near us knows him and loves seeing him around.
With ours, I do weigh up the pros and cons of them being in or out, and think we've got the balance about right for where we live, and the cats we have.
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Another one who none of the options fit!
I have a cat who lives with my Mum as she is too old and set in her ways to be moving round with me. She has always been an indoor/outdoor cat but never goes far and loves her home comforts. Now she is about 16 years old she mostly spends her time asleep on a comfy bed. My Mum lives in a quiet street with very little traffic so it is as safe a suburban environment as you can get.
I now have two cats of my own. When Chilli first became old enough to go out (after vaccs and spaying) I lived in a terraced house on a road which could be busy. I was a little less educated then but was lucky that she never went round the front of the houses, too much effort I think! I then moved further up the same street and I now shudder at the thought of what she must have dealt with every day. A lot of traffic and she loved to meet me walking home from work and certainly when I was walking with her she didn't always look before she crossed the road. She then went missing for three months, a little while after I got Dave. That was when I decided Dave would not be going anywhere unsupervised while I was living there. She turned up three months later and was kept in until they went to fosterer while I went overseas for a time.
While at two separate fosterers they had access outside, first in a secure courtyard and then free outside access in a rural area where again it was as safe as it could be in that sort of environment. Chilli again did a disappearing act, this time only for a few weeks.
Now I am on a busy main road in a flat so going outside is just not going to happen. Neither of them show any real interest in going out the front door. Chilli likes to nosy at whoever is at the front door and Dave runs away! It was a real concern for me that they would hate being kept indoors, even though they had done it happily before. I didn't need to worry, they are both very happy.
They are still very young so I hope to move to somewhere in the future where I can catproof the garden or live rurally and allow them access outside. Chilli does love to hunt though and would therefore be kept in overnight to reduce the possibility of her reducing the native bird numbers.
As for dogs, no they shouldn't be allowed to free roam. They are far too unpredictable and there are enough attacks by dogs as it is. This is down to mostly poor ownership, I understand that but dogs are just too much of a risk. Your own experience of being attacked by a cat is the only one I have ever heard of and cats also inflict a lot less damage than a dog. You don't here of people being mauled to death by cats do you?
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Can we please not go down the dogs are vicious creatures who maul people to death route.
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Sorry Den, I perhaps didn't make my opinion clear. I love dogs and with the right owners are fantastic pets and creatures. Unfortunately there are cases where dogs can be dangerous and as we were asked for our opinions on dogs being allowed to roam, my reasons for them not being able to are for those that have been reared and treated incorrectly and through no fault of the dogs own, do become dangerous. This is as sad for the dog as for dog lovers but it is sadly something that happens far too often.
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I am most certainly in the camp of cats should be allowed outside, however there are certain cats i.e injured/deaf/disabled/ill/very old or very timid that an indoor life may suit better.
It has always been my opinion that if you live in a flat without a garden or somewhere not appropriate to let cats out then one of the ones in the category above may suit best, I know I couldn't wait to be able to let mine out into the world so they could explore, have more room to play and act like a cats should :sneaky:
But that is just my opinion and don't wish to upset anyone with any other ideas 8)
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Ah, I didn't see the question about whether dogs should roam loose. Personally (having been prevented by going in my own front door by a neighbour's loose dog!) I'd say no - they are bigger, and therefore far more likely to inflict serious damage on someone if they did go for them. Of course, cats can cause injuries and I'd never dream of saying that all (or even most) dogs are likely to bite people but I think the potential for injury is greater with dogs than with cats. Also dogs hunt in a pack, and several loose dogs in an area would take on a pack mentality - that could cause problems with them attacking cats for a start. And, being a horse owner, the last thing I would want is to have loose dogs anywhere near my horses - it's bad enough coping with farm dogs.
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That is fine. I myself like to believe there is no such thing as a dangerous dog .. only bad/dangerous owners. They are the muppets who would allow free roaming.
Referring to the question posed though.
I don't think a comparison could be made between the two. It is in the mindset of people here that cats can free roam and dogs can't. It is a way of life. All other pets are kept where they don't roam. I know what you are getting at, but it is one of those things that you aren't going to get an answer to. The best you are going to get is dog people will say no pet should free roam and cat owners who say cats should free roam and dogs shouldn't. Then you get everyone in-between and the ones who say dogs shouldn't be allowed out full stop, even with a lead and under control.
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1. Non-native species not holding water. Well, perhaps not to you all there. I am not sure eon the history of introduction of a non-native species there, but here and in other places the consequences was the loss or almost total loss of a native species. In the USA I can think of a few that have been problematic, including the English Sparrow, Starlings, Kudzu, Buckthorn, asian muscles, Africanized bees and a lot more. Off the top of my head I believe Australia has a big problem with rabbits. There are some polar islands where cats were left when the post were abandoned and the came close to wiping out the native bird population. I do not fault the non-native animals for they are just living and surviving. I fault the people who introduced them, sometimes by mistake and others with intent to do something else. But history shows the introduction of species can devastate an area or animal population or country. How would you feel about the introduction of raccoons to the UK? I would bet over time it would cause a major problem. (since raccoons were native to North America I am assuming this has not been done there, at least I hope not) So my point is simply that in a more natural ecosystem the introduction of a foreign species can be very harmful in the long run.
Coolcybercats, you confused me there and perhaps I wasn't clear enough with my answer either. You said your opinion was not to allow cats outside because they are not native animals. You didn't state your concerns were about the problems of them breeding in uncontrolled conditions and 'escaping' from domestic situations that way.... well I volunteer a lot of my time and efforts in trapping, neutering and releasing feral and farm cats for Cats Protection. We have never subscribed to allowing unneutered cats out to mix with local animals and indeed without first being neutered. This is based on concerns for the cats and the suffering that ensues from an inadequate food source, lack of vet care, not enough safe shelter... not concerns for the local wildlife who, as you say, are most probably not 'native' in the first place. :evillaugh:
Actually we do have problems with introduced species in the UK such as Mink and the Grey Squirrel... what can I say? If only people had NEUTERED them before they turned their backs. >:(
P.S. If you got Sparrows over there please can you send them back? The Carrion Crows (thriving due to increased human refuse scattered around) are eating all the chicks and we have very few Sparrows left. :( Not sure where the Carrion Crows came from though. :tired:
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Sorry Den, I perhaps didn't make my opinion clear. I love dogs and with the right owners are fantastic pets and creatures. Unfortunately there are cases where dogs can be dangerous and as we were asked for our opinions on dogs being allowed to roam, my reasons for them not being able to are for those that have been reared and treated incorrectly and through no fault of the dogs own, do become dangerous. This is as sad for the dog as for dog lovers but it is sadly something that happens far too often.
I agree with this too. I work for a dog charity and I am still very weary of dogs I don't know.
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P.S. If you got Sparrows over there please can you send them back? The Carrion Crows (thriving due to increased human refuse scattered around) are eating all the chicks and we have very few Sparrows left. :( Not sure where the Carrion Crows came from though. :tired:
It's us in Shropshire, we have all the sparrows. They are in huge flocks where I keep the horses, hundreds of them.
I've done my share of neutering feral and farm cats, too, so they don't add to the population and problem of feral cats breeding. But the ferals I've adopted have been very useful in pest control and without yard cats I'd have suffered a lot more damage from rodents to horse feed and equipment.
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I ticked the first option because I don't feel it's safe to allow my cats outdoor access due to living near a busy road. I also live in a flat so it would be difficult (though not impossible) to get around the practicalities as I don't have my own front door. I don't think everyone should necessarily keep their cats indoors though. It depends on the cat and the locality. It's a balancing act between total safety and total freedom. I think cats benefit enormously from going outside and it isn't easy to take the decision to deprive them of the advantages of an outdoor life. It's also not easy to keep them happy indoors as it requires a lot of effort to provide anywhere near enough stimulation. But it can be done and I wouldn't feel happy letting my boys risk the dangers outside where I live so I have chosen to keep them as indoor cats. I'm happy with my decision and think that they are happy and contented cats. I'm sure they'd enjoy the outdoors (esp Mosi) but I dont' think they're unhappy with the life they have. In an ideal world I'd go for a cat proofed garden so that they could have some safe outdoor access.
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I would say the ideal situation is to have a cat proofed garden for them to safely play in the open fresh air, but if that's not possible they are much better off inside the safety of your own home. While the traffic and cars are the most obvious dangers, there are so many other possible perils out there, your puds going missing and never to be found, being poisoned by a malicious neighbour, attack by a loose dog or some other predators, getting in fights with other cats and sustaining serious injuries, coming in contact or eating god knows what out there and picking up illness (and possibly fatal), to mention a few. At the end of the day it is a personal choice, but I would never let my boy go roaming around out there by himself.
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sorry I am not British, though I have lived there also in the Us (now living in Rome Italy for almost 7 years), maybe my opinion doesn't count but I would stick to this opinion wherever I may happen to live...
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I think each cat is very different and there is no set rules you have to go along with and compromise on what the cat wants and what is best for them. I have had people comment on me our situation and how it is wrong, but I know my cats and what works for us
I'd say that this is the most important point when trying to decide on whether a cat should be indoors/outdoors. I could quite happily state that I think all cats should be kept indoors but I know that this isn't practical and it would be cruel for cats that are used to being freedom to go wherever they like, which is why I chose the first option. Although I think the best way is what most people here have been saying, cats that live mainly indoors, but are allowed out into a secure garden to have a bit of a sniff around, and enjoy the sunshine and the fresh air. Sometime in the future I hope to move to a house that has a nice little garden so I can try putting a harness on Pepsi and letting her have a wander around to see if she likes it, as stated in my previous post that isn't possible now but I don't think she's any worse off for it.
I'm still a little bit funny about letting cats go wherever they want, as it seems like there's so many risks out there, I'd be mad with worry all the time. I do kind of agree with the initial question of outdoor cats having a shortened lifespan, not from a natural life point of view, but from an accident based death kind of point. An outdoor cat is more likely to meet with a fatal accident, whether it's being hit with a car, picking up an illness from another animal, being attacked by a dog etc etc than an indoors only cat, so although if none of these things does happen, an outdoor cat's life may not be shortened, there is more chance of it's life being cut short unnaturally IYKWIM? Again though it's all down to the cat and what their wants and needs are. I'm not condemming cats being allowed to roam completely, as like I said I know that some cats would hate being cooped up all day and being denioed this freedom, it's just not for me
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I think as long as the cats happy it does not matter, and my opinion is final and all that matters!!! lol
I wish Ronnie would decide which one he is as Im sicking of getting up to open the door!
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I would agree with an option that said:
"I allow my cats outdoor access but believe other people should are perfectly entitled to deny such access to their cat in the interest of the cat"
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Your own experience of being attacked by a cat is the only one I have ever heard of and cats also inflict a lot less damage than a dog. You don't here of people being mauled to death by cats do you?
I do know that that cat attack was rather rare, not meaning to imply it was common place. More that it can happen. And yes, a dog can do a lot more damage based from it's size. Though I did have to get some stitches and rabies shots after the cat attack. And I have no idea why that happened. Of course in my life I have been attacked by far more dogs, and strangly all 3 times were Irish Setters, which now give me the creeps.
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Can we please not go down the dogs are vicious creatures who maul people to death route.
Den + Memphis, I never meant to imply dogs are vicious at all. On the contrary, they can be wonderful and loving. Though like any animal owned, they will be shaped by how they are treated and trained. Sadly some people are just jerks and I am always so sad when I hear of animals having to be put to sleep because of how they were brought up or trained. I with the people who did that to them were put to sleep too sometimes. :(
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I think as long as the cats happy it does not matter, and my opinion is final and all that matters!!! lol
I wish Ronnie would decide which one he is as Im sicking of getting up to open the door!
:rofl:
But that's what we are here for ie Hoomans to serve cat at all times!!! ;) :evillaugh:
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That is fine. I myself like to believe there is no such thing as a dangerous dog .. only bad/dangerous owners. They are the muppets who would allow free roaming.
Referring to the question posed though.
I don't think a comparison could be made between the two. It is in the mindset of people here that cats can free roam and dogs can't. It is a way of life. All other pets are kept where they don't roam. I know what you are getting at, but it is one of those things that you aren't going to get an answer to. The best you are going to get is dog people will say no pet should free roam and cat owners who say cats should free roam and dogs shouldn't. Then you get everyone in-between and the ones who say dogs shouldn't be allowed out full stop, even with a lead and under control.
Hi again Den + Memphis,
Good response. I like it. :)
So, are their many Main coon, Savannah and Serval cats in the UK?
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Actually we do have problems with introduced species in the UK such as Mink and the Grey Squirrel... what can I say? If only people had NEUTERED them before they turned their backs. >:(
P.S. If you got Sparrows over there please can you send them back? The Carrion Crows (thriving due to increased human refuse scattered around) are eating all the chicks and we have very few Sparrows left. :( Not sure where the Carrion Crows came from though. :tired:
Wow, did the grey squirrels come from North America? The east here has tons of them! Out here there are some, but more red squirrels.
And English Sparrows? Oh, come get them! Sadly they were introduced (if I remember right) in Central Park NYC in the early or mid 1800's to help with some infestation I think. They took over and like Starling spread everywhere, having no natural preditors, and caused great harm to the native black bird populations. But, I admit I feed all the birds that come by our home with a lot of feeders, except in the fall as we have a few black bears that like to break the poles and feeders and take our trash. :(
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sorry I am not British, though I have lived there also in the Us (now living in Rome Italy for almost 7 years), maybe my opinion doesn't count but I would stick to this opinion wherever I may happen to live...
dolcetta46, It does not matter where you are, your opinion counts as much as anyones. :)
And yes, as you said, it is a personal choice. I never meant to tell people to not let out their cats. In the end people will and can do what they personally feel is best for their situation. :)
Rome? I would love to see Rome! I was born in Naples!
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Me again :na na naa na:
I justed wanted to add. That think there isn't really a right and wrong and agree that it's down to each different cat personality and health also the area you live. :briggin:
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Yep, the grey squirrels were introduced from the US, and pretty much wiped out our native red squirrels as they brought over diseases which the reds couldn't cope with, and were also bigger and stronger so took all the food and the ladies away from the reds!
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except in the fall as we have a few black bears that like to break the poles and feeders and take our trash. :(
:scared: I presume you let the bears have your trash!! :-: I can just see you running after them in your dressing gown to get your trash back! :evillaugh:
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Yep, the grey squirrels were introduced from the US, and pretty much wiped out our native red squirrels as they brought over diseases which the reds couldn't cope with, and were also bigger and stronger so took all the food and the ladies away from the reds!
Is the Isle of Wight now one of the only places we have the reds?
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Just had to slope off to check my facts about the red squirrel but turns out I was right. We still have a fair few in scotland and apparently the Highlands are the place to be to spot them. Even if you don't spot the red squirrel, the surroundings will still be beautiful ;)
Here is a list of places to spot them. No mention of the Isle of Wight though.
http://www.forestry.gov.uk/website/wildwoods.nsf/$$SearchMammal?Openform&OP=Mammals&PS=(FIELD+Form+Contains+AccessPoint+or+Forest+or+Wood)+AND+(FIELD+Mammals+Contains+Red+squirrel)
Edited to add that I think the grey squirrel is in fact now considered a pest here?
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There are a few reds dotted around the UK I think, I know a couple of parks I've been to have signs up stating that there are a couple, and if you spot them to ring a number so they can be trapped. They are massively endangered though. The grey squirrel is a massive pest, in fact there is talk of a huge cull of them with hopes of reintroducing the red squirrel. And then there's the black squirrel which is threatening both the reds and greys.... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-561946/The-pack-mutant-black-squirrels-giving-Britains-grey-population-taste-medicine.html
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Maine Coons are a popular breed here. Not sure how popular, but they aren't rare.
As for Savannahs and Servals - they are very rare and expensive. My friend (in Georgia) has a Savannah called Troy and he's gorgeous :Luv2: before you ask .. He's an indoor cat lol.
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Definitely red squirrels still in Scotland and the north west of England, and I think some in the NE too? I thought it wasn't just disease but also a general loss of habitat that was killing reds off too? I can't see the point in a grey cull for most of the country, reds won't move back if they haven't got anywhere suitable to live, but do understand the need to stop the greys encroaching on areas where the reds still live. We did have two red squirrels where I used to live (still in Shropshire) about 15 years ago but again, loss of habitat and the fact there only seemed to be two of them probably got them as there weren't many greys, either.
When we got our two oldest, as kittens, the plan (as I said on another thread) was to get an older cat and that would have been an indoor cat. Strange how plans go wrong - but I adore the two we've got (and one of them has now taken it upon himself to be a house cat anyway!).
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except in the fall as we have a few black bears that like to break the poles and feeders and take our trash. :(
:scared: I presume you let the bears have your trash!! :-: I can just see you running after them in your dressing gown to get your trash back! :evillaugh:
I have learned to take the big can into the garage at night from October to late November. This year I forgot once and found that one of the bags was removed and brought way up the mountain side where it was opened and there was trash all over. It took me quite a while to chase it all down.
Last year one snapped a 3"x3" post in half to bring a feeder down! So we also stop all bird feeding in the fall now.
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Maine Coons are a popular breed here. Not sure how popular, but they aren't rare.
As for Savannahs and Servals - they are very rare and expensive. My friend (in Georgia) has a Savannah called Troy and he's gorgeous :Luv2: before you ask .. He's an indoor cat lol.
Was not going to ask. ;) Most breeders out here who sell Savannah's make you sign a contract that you will never let it out on it's own. Of course most good shelters make you sign that you will never declaw the adopted cat, but that does not stop people at all. :(
Any idea what F rating your friends Savannah is? I would LOVE to have an F1 near Serval size except I won't buy a cat from a breeder and will only take in strays and rescues. Ahh, but I can dream of the day a stray F1 somes to my door and decided to make a new home. ;)
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Main coons are around.
The only Serval I know is from http://www.gayzette-bengals.co.uk/html/serval.html
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Main coons are around.
The only Serval I know is from http://www.gayzette-bengals.co.uk/html/serval.html
God! What a beautiful cat!
Out here you hear about people who raise bobcat kittens a lot and then when they grow they freak because they are so large and wild. You hear some real horror stories of them declawing and defanging them!
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Troy is an F2 :)
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I'm fascinated by the results of the poll, not sure if it has been skewed by the fact that quite a few of us have posted by abstained?? Surely 30% of us don't think deaf or partially sighted cats should be allowed to roam free, or perhaps they mean should be allowed into a cat proofed garden or adopted to an isolated farm? :wow: The problem then is that some rescue cats would never find a forever home - Noah is not suited to hard surfaces, other cats, dogs or children, so finding someone with grassed outside space but none of the above would be a real challenge.
Loving the rosetted Bengals. :Luv2:
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There was no option for me as I dont allow mine out- but would love it if they could go out safely, I think this could only happen in an ideal world. Sadly I have had to cat proof my garden for safety issues :shy:
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The poll is definately skewed cos it wasnt the right question for us with outdoor cats LOL
You will have to forgive my ignorance but thought Servals were wild cats?
The breeder shown on that site I believe has supplied bengals to Linda who breeds them and she has an F1 bengal I believe but he is neuatered,
She sadly lost her house in a fire this year and also one of her beautiful bengals, Minerva, such a tragedy
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Oh God that is sad!! (http://www.coolcybercats.com/images/messageBoard/Cry.gif)
Serval are wild cats, but a Savannah is a cross between a Serval and Domestic cat. The F rating is generations removed from Serval, so higher the # the smaller the cat, till it is just about house cat size. Some breeders here will sell off the Servals when they are no loger good breeding age. :( At least I have read of a few.
The poll is definately skewed cos it wasnt the right question for us with outdoor cats LOL
You will have to forgive my ignorance but thought Servals were wild cats?
The breeder shown on that site I believe has supplied bengals to Linda who breeds them and she has an F1 bengal I believe but he is neuatered,
She sadly lost her house in a fire this year and also one of her beautiful bengals, Minerva, such a tragedy
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Ahhhhhhhhhhh right didnt know the origins of the Savannahas, :thanks:
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We have an awful lot of red squirrels in our woods and also about a mile away we see them most days - not seen any grey ones since moving here so they are alive and kicking in the North east of Scotland
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We did that in conservation the other week. They are in Pockets - NE Scotland, Anglesey, Isle of Wight and a few other places.
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They have a red squirrel sanctuary near Blundlesands in Lancs
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Voted! I really think its up to location, cats character etc.... ;)
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I can't vote either, as none of them apply - I do allow my cats to go out, but not my fosters, although it does depend on the cat - the girls dont even come downstairs these days, never mind see the front door, Molly even spent all last summer chattering at birds from inside the house, although Zi came out the odd time. I couldn't keep Sam as an indoor only cat though, he sprays in front of you if he wants to go out and you refuse. He does wander and bully other cats though, and will also go in people's cars, hence his collar (the girls only wear them if they go outside). I have lived here for 8 years, and only known of 2 cats been hit by cars, one survived, one didn't, but I approved the one who didn't to adopt another cat from the rescue i volunteer for, as I still believe it is safe, and was just a tragic accident. I dont agree with people like my new neighbour who leaves her cat outside in all weathers, seemingly regardless of what the cat wants. I wont have a catflap though, cos of the cats that live round here, i only know of two that keep theirs indoor only.