Flea Treatment - A warning and simple precautions

[Beanie]

Milly's Mum,

No problem.

[Millys Mum]

Wouldnt matter if i worked at vet uk or not, as its my opinion on frontline! 
Some people read things about flea treatments on here and do freak out, Leos mum did when reading about bob martin as she had used it on him. Dont want to scaremonger.

I didnt know that profiles were for personal sites, on music forums i visit my profile, and everyone elses, has links to bands and sites that i generally find interesting  they are not there to mislead people.

There is leeway with dosages, FL spot on can be used in kittens of only 1kg, they are obviously getting a higher dose than an average 4kg cat.

I resign on this as feel like its gone full circle 

[Beanie]

Thanks for clearing that up Des. I assumed it was a profile about the person which included their rescue site or their own website, etc. I used to have mine on there but it has beedn dormant for quite  awhile now so not worth the link.

I do actually use Vet Uk and am extremely happy with their service.

[Hippykitty]

Re my comment about permethrin having been a common ingredient of flea sprays pre frontline etc:

I think I was getting confused with PYRETHRUM  which is from the same family but which was not toxic to cats. Modern POM flea treatments don't use it, but it was a common anti-flea substance - which had to be applied every few days - before the miracles of FL and Programme etc.

[Desley (booktigger)]

The VetUK links are actually charity links Pete, charities are able to get commission off sales, which is a help to us, as we can get things cheaper than the vets, and then get commission periodically.
I do understand your point about weight, and it is easier for people to get products now. i can't get on VetUK to check the sizes for dogs, but I have had large fosters that have been similar weights to small dogs like Shih Tzu's, and never really thought about it that way.

[Beanie]

OK point taken about Permethrin not being in either Frontline for Dogs or Cats but I would just add that some cats - like our Barney - are larger and heavier than some dogs, so I'm not sure how that works with Frontline. Not looking to panic anybody but I am looking to make people think.

My reference to Vet UK is because you have a link to it in your profile (see below). I, therefore, assumed that you were employed by them or owned the company; I was under the impression that links on Purrs profiles were to websites/companies with which people have a vested interest rather than a website of their choice, which is a bit misleading.

http://www.vetuk.co.uk/idevaffiliate/idevaffiliate.php?id=172

[Millys Mum]

I said

Just to confirm to people with both cats and dogs, you are not in danger of poisoning the cat when you flea the dog as it just contains fipronil

As in the cat wont be having contact with the toxic permethrin when treating a dog with frontline. Your post implied that having dogs treated with FL around cats was dangerous and could panic some people who keep both species.

They make different products because they are for bigger sizes. My post further down shows the %age of active ingredient in the range so you can see it goes up by weight.

I cant see a link to vet uk but i quoted from NOAH the data for frontline, its a public database of info sheets for many drugs.

[Beanie]

Hi Milly's Mum,

I assume the angry sign was about Bob Martins and Johnsons in which case I wholeheartedly agree. I now know that Frontline for Dogs contains Fipronil and not Permethrin as you state unlike Bob Martins and Johnsons.  Fipronil is described as a slow acting poison used on fleas amongst other insects.

Fipronil is used as the active ingredient in Frontline Top Spot at about 9.8% concentration for flea and tick control. It is slightly absorbed by the skin.

I note that you show in your details a link to the Vet UK website. Do you work for them or is it your business? If so, you may be able to answer one thing that is puzzling me. You say there is no danger to cats from Frontline for Dogs. I don't understand that because if there was no danger the Frontline would not make different products for cats and dogs. Why bother making two different products?

Incidentally, I was talking to my veterinary practice this morning and sadly they had a case of cat poisoning yesterday. The owner applied a flea treatment for dogs to the cat. Sadly, the cat died in agony from Permethrin poisoning and the vet couldn't save her. The family were distraught but I have always failed to understand why anyone with half a brain cell would give a treatment to a cat marked by the manufacturer as being specifically for dogs. Would any human being take a cat antibiotic for a human condition? I don't think so.

However, maybe I'm being a little harsh if you are saying that Frontline for Dogs will not poison a cat as it doesn't contain Permethrin. If so, I'm confused and would appreciate your clarity.

 

[Millys Mum]

I don't have any dogs but my local pet supply shop also confirmed that dog flea treatment includes Permethrin. Permethrin is also used in wood preservatives and ant killing products

That doesnt include FL or other prescription treatments, its the like of bob martin and johnsons. Which should be stopped from sale 

The spray (more of pump really) is great for little kittens too as you can rub in with gloves on.
It also lasts longer than the spot on so not a bad thing.

Frontline for Dogs includes the active ingredient of Permethrin which can be fatal for cats.

Just to confirm to people with both cats and dogs, you are not in danger of poisoning the cat when you flea the dog as it just contains fipronil.

[Beanie]

I wrote

In 2005 the VPIS received 246 telephone calls which increased to 246 the following year for Permethrin based poisoning enquiries.

That should have read In 2005 the VPIS received 221 telephone calls which increased to 246 the following year for Permethrin based poisoning enquiries.

Ela,

I can understand the difficulty with ferals and applying flea treatment although I've never had to do it.

[Ela]

Personally I would not entertain the sprays.

We have all our garden/feral cats sprayed with Frontline with they are under anaesthetic at the vets, none have ever suffered with any adverse effects.

[Beanie]

Ela wrote

That would be the Frontline Spot-on's then would it? The spray is for cats and dogs.

Yes my comments refer to the spot on. Personally I would not entertain the sprays.

Milly's Mum,

I don't have any dogs but my local pet supply shop also confirmed that dog flea treatment includes Permethrin. Permethrin is also used in wood preservatives and ant killing products.

The common signs of poisoning with this product include salivation, tremors, convulsions, twitching, hyperthermia and tachycardia. THis can happen within 1 -3 hours of coming in contact. The VPIS say that prognosis is usually good with very prompt veterinary intervention. Curlycat would be better placed than me to know what veterinary treatments are available.

In 2005 the VPIS received 246 telephone calls which increased to 246 the following year for Permethrin based poisoning enquiries.

Hippykitty,

I honestly don't know if Permethrin was standard in cat and dog flea products some years back.



I have just re-checked my Frontline Spot On Cat information and, as I thought,  it contains the instruction Do not allow treated animals to lick each other or rub against other animals or furnishings until the application site is dry

[Hippykitty]

Before modern flea treatments, wasn't permithrin a standard ingredient of both cat and dog flea sprays? I seem to remember using masses of it in 1995 when there was a flea epidemic and before FL, Programme etc were developed.

[Millys Mum]

Wasnt sure about dog FL having Permethrin in it so checked NOAH:

Dog:

Presentation
Spot on solution containing 10% w/v fipronil. Presented in plastic pipettes, each containing 0.67 ml (67 mg fipronil), 1.34 ml (134 mg fipronil), 2.68 ml (268 mg fipronil) or 4.02ml (402 mg fipronil).

Cat:

Presentation
Spot on solution containing 10% w/v fipronil. Each pipette contains 0.5 ml (50 mg fipronil).

So its a case of overdosing with dog FL not toxic additives.

[Ela]

That would be the Frontline Spot-on's then would it? The spray is for cats and dogs.

[Millys Mum]

Good post 
Although Lola would like to add she doesnt need anybody to lick her frontline as she can do it herself. The maufacturers do say it wont cause any harm tho 

I dont think unPOMing frontline causes more problems as people could have cats and dogs, buy from a vet and just decide to use on the cat. Iv never heard the receptionists give warnings when selling flea control, they just ask for weights.

[Beanie]

I've just seen th Sensitivy to Stronghold thread started by Mark and would like to expand on one of the comments from Liz.

I recently attended a lecture by a leading UK poisons expert from the Veterinary Poisons Service who advise the veterinary profession amongst other profesional bodies. It rather staggered me that the number1 reported poison that kills our cats were owners is Permethrin. As an aside but not relative to this thread - paracetemol is high on the list. The mind boggles as anyone who gives paracetemol to thei cats should be shot oor be certified,

The really annoying thing is that it simply needn't happen with simple knowledge and care. The continual source of this poison is owners applying Frontline for dogs to their cats thinking it was exactly the same as Frontline for Cats. It is not. Frontline for Dogs includes the active ingredient of Permethrin which can be fatal for cats.

Whilst I know it wasn't applied to the cats in Liz's story, there are lessons there for all. Whilst Permethrin is not present in Frontline for Cats,  you should follow the manufacturers advice and keep cats separate until the liquid has had time to dry on them. From memory I believe they talk about an hour but this a minimum rule of thumb and I prefer 2 hours to be safe. The reason is that cats who are of the same family or close may lick each other and get the liquid in their system, which can cause problems.

In the case of cat and dog families, as a matter of course I would also keep them separate when applying Frontline for Dogs or similar treatment.  Whilst Permethrin is not fatal to dogs it can be to cats if they lick the Frontline on the dog(s).

At one time the aforementioned flea treatments were only available on prescription from your vet. Whilst it is welcome that it has now opened up to chemists, etc, from a cost point of view, it is perhaps even more important to be alert to the dangers. My post is prompted by a local chemist selling Frontline and freely admitting that he didn't know the difference about dog and cat versions or anything about the Permethrinactive ingredient problem for cats. He said that he may refer any questions to the pet supply shop. That is simply frightening but not born out of ignorance. It is, in his case, born out of not caring about animals, not having sufficient penalties for wrong advice (as with human beings) and the lure of the £ sign. Needless to say I shall be monitoring him.