Purrs In Our Hearts - Cat Forum UK
Cat Health & Behaviour => Health & Behaviour General => Topic started by: JenGeorgieBob on December 14, 2015, 16:41:55 PM
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Hello,
Please excuse the long post, but just wanted to get everything down.
Billy, 7 years old Ragdoll, ex-stud kept in a pen in the garden, arrived here with Zarny end of July. Initially quite a wary scaredy cat, especially in comparison with Zarny (however she was a hand rear, so possibly settled in more quickly). Zarny is his ex partner so to speak and the father of most of her kittens. Neutered shortly before we got him.
After various communications due to vet visits and details needed it has emerged that he was considered so laid back, he was often placed in with other entire neutered males during his stud career, which I doubt has helped his confidence!
They get on well, and when they first arrived seemed very bonded, I think as Zarny is more people focused she is a bit more independent from him now.
We are still in the process of him adapting to the home environment, at first he was terrified of the TV, but this has calmed down somewhat. Gradually improved with us though, and a bit of a morning routine developed when I could get a 5 minute cuddle before breakfast time, get a lovely purr out of him every morning. Could very much cuddle on his terms, but quite regularly. Very playful, and almost seems to forget himself when he plays. Always quite wary of OH though.
We started having problems with him urinating outside of trays which we went to the vets for, at the beginning of September. The only physical symptom was a couple of mouth ulcers (he was then tested for Calici Virus and came back clear, the only cause being stress). Metacam for a few days and back to keeping him in one room.
Gradually allowed more access to the flat but again the peeing problems started up (and when they flare up badly he will not use a tray at all). Back to the vets and he was tested for cystitis – came back as non-specific inflammation, no signs of infection, so again, stress. Back to keeping him in one room.
He was kept in one room throughout November, briefly allowed access to one corridor in December and starting peeing again, back to the vets and given comicalm (sp?) anti-depressants to put him to help with his stress levels.
However, this is when it gets tricky. He is very picky with his food so hiding the tablets is no good, we have tried webbox sticks (he now won’t eat any webbox sticks as he doesn’t trust them). Cheese, corned beef, ham, chicken, tuna, catnip, (he won’t eat dreamies). We then have to force them down him, but he is a nightmare to pill! He is so very strong and so hates the pills and us. We called the vets in despair and were told to wrap him in a blanket to pill him, this is still a real struggle. A glimmer of hope offered in the form of a putty, developed for hiding pills, especially alluring to cats….nope…not having any of it.
One nightmare evening trying to pill him, everything went everywhere, OH’s leg scratched up badly and he is terrified of us! I can no longer get my morning hugs at all!
Our current plan is, giving up! We are leaving him un-pilled to see if we can build up our relationship again and will be telling the vets. The only good sign is that even through all this stress he still used the tray fine.
What have we missed? Are there any tips and tricks we should try?
We currently have feliway (plug in and spray) (pet remedy didn’t help)
Multiple resources in multiple locations (as much as possible within the limits of one room)
Beaphar weekly calming spot on applied
Food consists partly of royal canin ragdoll mixed with royal canin calm (they took some persuading to eat the calm).
Multiple trays (we have found he prefers covered and really likes his cupboard litter tray)
Daily play sessions to build on his confidence.
I had a teeny tiny purr for about 20 seconds this morning, but nowhere near what we had before this :censored: pilling nightmare! OH has started saying are we doing the best by him? Can we offer him the home he needs? Which is heart breaking to hear but said very much with Billy's quality of life in mind (although I don't think we are anywhere near that, I am much more hopeful!)
Are we being bad cat guardians by not continuing with the pills?
Have ordered a Vicky Halls book online to brush up on my behavioural knowledge, but are there any other books anyone would recommend?
Well done for making it through this looooong thread and thank you for any help!
Jen, Billy and Zarny. :)
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We got our male cat at age 8 months, 5 months after we took his sister home. We experienced similar problems with nervousness although he was being sick everywhere, not weeing. He is a lovely cat and has improved slowly over the last 5 years. He is still skittish around OH, doesn't like loud noises, sudden movements but he sits with us every night on the sofa and joins us when we have company (these are both things he never used to do).
It has been very slow improvement but improvement nonetheless. It is a cliche but time is all it takes. I understand it can be upsetting and frustrating but even small wins each day really give us hope and he now seems miles apart from how he was.
Unfortunately we never solved the pill issue. We either have to grab him or get the vets to do it. He won't take any himself no matter how many treats we cover them in.
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I don't mind giving him time, and am happy to accept him a he is rather than expecting a different cat. It's just the urinating outside the tray we can't risk, as it will damage the flooring, and obviously it is a clear indication that he isn't happy.
Glad to know we are not the only ones with a no-go on the pills! :thanks:
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Sorry I can't help with the urinating aspect. Is it urinating or spraying / marking? I know most neutered cats don't do it but it's not unheard of. I wonder if there could be an underlying health issue. Bless him, I hope the vets can help you work something out.
Also, I suppose being a stud cat all of his life and suddenly being neutered could possibly have made him out of sorts.
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The Vets have ruled out anything physical, so it is likely down to his history and experiences sadly. I suppose the decision now is whether to continue to push with the medication, or allow longer in the one room and see how he does, poor Zarny doesn't like being in the one room. It's one or the other eh?
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Do you know if the breeder passed on any info about his past behaviour? Yes, it might be worth trying the one room for a short while just to see if he settles. I know it's really difficult when you have 2 cats with completely different temperaments trying to please both.
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To be honest, she doesn't seem to have known him really. I think he was one among many and get the impression he didn't get much attention, especially considering when others clamour for attention more.
Bless him, just wish i could speak cat!
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I suppose it could even be that he isn't that used to people. Hope it all improves soon.
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Oh Jen, so sorry to hear that Billy's issues haven't improved :( :hug:
Would a puppy pad in the places he is weeing be an option? I know you don't want to encourage urination outside the tray but if you think of 'replacing the puppy pad' the same as 'scooping the tray' it's a quick easy job with no mess to clean up.
On the tablet front I really do consider myself qualified to advise! When Riley first got ill I used to hide his tablets in treats... except since he became ill his appetite completely changed - he doesn't even eat dreamies anymore :Crazy: I managed to get the tablets into him hidden in treats for the first few months, then he started refusing them. It was incredibly stressful as without the medication he will die, simple as :( I started to try and force the tablets into him, foolishly one day in nothing more than a dressing gown and ended up out of breath, bloodied and wounded with a very stressed and upset Riley!
In desperation I rang the vets and asked for an appt with the vet or nurse who was the best at giving tablets... nurses are more likely to give them more often behind the scenes so are likely to be better than vets... I went to my appt and nearly broke down in tears explaining that I couldn't tablet Riley, and that if I couldn't tablet him I was effectively sentencing him to death :'( I was also worried that if my interaction with him was catching him and manhandling him 4 times a day he would be frightened of any contact with me and hide.
She showed me the best way to wrap him and up and give me his tablets, I am such a pro it is a 2 second job - it's only twice a day now due to a meds change but the strange thing is he actually comes when he hears the click of the tablet pot now! I lay out 'his' dressing gown (a lovely thick fleecy one) wrap him up and pop the tablet in, followed with a squirt of water from a syringe to make sure it goes down. When I lay his dressing gown out he actually walks over it meaning I don't even have to 'catch' him!
That was a very long winded way of suggesting you pop him along to the vets to get a practical lesson in tablet giving! I know that Billy is obviously going to be less trusting of you due to his past and being 'new' to you but if you can make the tabletting a 2 second job it needn't set him back, especiially if he gets something 'good' afterwards - whether that be a play session or a favourite food. Riley always gets fed straight after his tablet so he obviously associates tablets with dinner.
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I love Helens post and so pleased it worked for her and Riley.
Have to say that I woukd stop the stress tablets and forget about them as think there is nothing sure about them working and just causing him to hate you.............he doesnt have Rileys build up of love for a long time with Helen.
I can only add my sorry tale with Napoleon ....................I only have one complete working hand and cannot bend the other very mich a grip small things and no real strength in it so pilling completely useless unless it can be crushed and fed in something else.
However Napoleon suffered from seizures which needed 7 days of injections which I used to adminster each time.........luckily je was a placid cat and so affectionate.
I got his meds after a seizure but noticed that the liquid was the wrong colour and turned out it had been made up with out of date powder even though I had questioned it at the time.
So had to take him back toi get more but they didnthave the powder in date so the young vet suggested that he be given it in pill form until meds came in next day.
She tried and tried, tried with a pill popper thing................no luck and suggested wrap in a towel, mapoleon totally freeaked out.....................he had another seizure when he got home. Pilling him was no option at all.
Its one of my dreads that I end up in Helens situation.
I have had two cats with ckd who could not be medicated but both lived to 19 and 20yrs.
OK the funny story concerns Ducha, Napoleon brother! Took them to the vet for for jabs and worming etc etc and vet could noy get a pill into Ducha cos ha spat it out every time after holding in mouth. She brought in a nurse to help and got one into him......we all thought! We watched for ages and he just sat there looking innocent and as soon as we went phew and turned away.........................spit and it was out again! We then changed to a spot on wormer for both!
However back to Billy, I think he is going to take a long time to come back round to how you had got him too before the pills, pleased dont let your OH convince you to let him go. He will get there but will take loads of patience and care. Dump the pills.
I would go with puppy pads around trays or in places he uses...................hope its the same places cos that makes it easier. Lupin sprays over the back of a special high backed tray which is a real pain but he is too tall now for a covered tray and wont use it...............reckon thats why he had one tbh.
Do Zarney and him need to be kept together in one room while you are not there? If not I would allow her to roam.
Does he come out of that room of his own accord if you open the door when you come home?
Its just so terribly sad that as a stud cat he was not treated well and after 7 years that will take a lot to reverse but with good care and love he will make it.
Vicky Halls is known not to like groups of cats together, dont know how she thinks about two and think this is a situation outside of what she is used to but she does do consultations. This is quite an abnormal situation I think and afraid I dont like cat counsellors much as some have such weird ideas.
However another possibility is to write to My Cat magazine because they may have an interest in this situation and be willing to have one of their coucellors visit................they seem quite sensible to me.
Please PM me if you want to talk more or we cn go into the chat room which I have now found lol
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Wow, thank you for all the help, just to add we do use puppy pads, we went through a stage of having to cover the sofa every night but that is no longer a target thankfully.
That story sounds very familiar, Billy cheeks it and spits it right out! The only way to get it in is using a pill popper thing to get it to the back of his throat. All the while he screams at the top of his voice like we are committing blue murder!
It's good to hear about Riley, I think if he starts urinating everywhere again we will book an appt at the vets with the nurse there to get a proper lesson.
Having said all this tonight I had an almost proper hug, well a stroke but with a proper purr! He then left his igloo bed to sit next to the sofa (he likes some films, especially kids ones, frozen is his favourite :evillaugh:), so he sat next to the sofa to watch planes with us. He then moved to the front of the sofa! Engrossed in the film, but sitting next to OHs legs, looked back at us a couple of times and when we got up walked away to his scratch post to watch. Walked, not run!
The disaster pill evening was Saturday night, so maybe he is starting to forgive us?
Zarny gets a bit upset if she can't see him, so she is kept in with him and when we are home she pops out with us to do the dinner, make a cup of tea. He does want to leave the room but then we get the peeing?
I hadn't thought of the cat magazine, that is a good idea!
Going to carry on with the safe room technique and in the new year start letting him into the rest of the flat, if he goes downhill or starts peeing everywhere again then we get that appointment. It's nice to have a plan, will update with any more progress as well,
Thank you
:hug: :hug: :hug:
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Loads of good luck with Billy and hope he has a great christmas his first of real freedom ;D
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Am tearing my hair out, had such lovely cuddles with him this morning, back to before the pulling, but he hasn't used his tray all night, wee everywhere!!!! He weed on top of the litter tray cupboard!
Going to have to go back to vets, but I so desperately wish I could speak to him. My accommodation is linked to my work, if he continues like this not only will we lose our home but I will lose my job!
Please please please Billy, use the tray. Please.
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oh Jen that is awful for you, I wish I knew what to say, I assume he is restricted to one room at night - you've probably tried every litter under the sun as well I'm sure :hug:
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Jen I use the good old fashioned plastic hall runner stuff under my frit boxes and have some cardboard round the walls in my cat box room - oh yes we have a room with wall to wall grit boxes containing clumping clay litter, wood pellet litter, paper litter and 4 trays with nothing in them as some of mine hate any litter under their paws may be worth thinking about changing the litter - I use cat attract clumping clay from zooplus and mine seem to like the very fine stuff the best in fact Onyx Mau rolls in the boxes on the compete change out - the fine stuff does track a bit but it is wonderful most of mine love the stuff!
Re the pilling can you try "pilling" them both I do this with a couple of the ferals who are on tablets and currently am using raw mince wrapped round their tablets and they now think its a treat, the others get theirs in human pate they seem to favour the fish varieties from M & S but have used various meat one as well, then there are the pill pockets they can be a godsend
I am currently pilling Bailey my very ill alpha boy and he hates me as I was also doing 200mls of Sub Q fluids a day for a week - I look like I have been shredded to bits but he is now taking his meds in pate and nearly loves me again
Another thing to try is Margicol human tablets for calming (from any health food shop) I had good effects with them on 3 ferals a bit hard to crush and chuck on wet food but the old teaspoon trick worked for me
A Shower curtain with a throw on it is another way of protecting furniture - ferals can be a nightmare when first trapped
Puppy pads seem to encourage them not to hit the box in our experience that's why we went to the plastic runner and my inside cats have a strip for their food bowls as well as we have 8 bowls and 2 water bowls in the middle of the room and they tend to be messy sods
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Liz that is very interesting...where can you get that plastic runner from?
Wonder if it would stop Lupin spraying over the tray!
I dont think you should go back to vets with Billy cos that will also stress him out even more......................Lizs ideas should help you protect your home and job......................write to MY Cat mag, they can only say no.
Do you have insurance? If so ask your vet if he can refer Billy to a behavorist as I think behavorist is probably the only way to go long term.
What do you clean Billys mess with? Has something happened to make him very stressed last night?
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what litter do you use? I know that Vicky halls always recommends going for the finest you can find, catsan gold is very fine
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Little :censored: has just peed in the tray.
Have tried a few litters but not cat attract, will try and get some tomorrow. Thanks the tip for plastic covering, will try and get some.
Have a vet appointment at 5:30, I want a full check from tip to tail to make sure it's nothing physical. He limped on his back leg very briefly earlier. Probably nothing a he is now tearing round the room after the flying frenzy.
With pilling we are trying him on different foods, but there is nothing he likes enough to hide a pill? Tried half a dreamy wrapped in corned beef and he spat it out as if it was poisoned. Will ask later for a demo of wrapping him.
Thanks
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:rofl: :rofl:
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probably a good idea jen, I hope you can get it sorted, it must be pretty hard going
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:hug: :hug: :hug:
If you do decide to persevere with the tablets after the wrapping demo then I highly recommend a thick dressing gown instead of a towel - works so much better for me. Also the syringe of water is essential to get the tablet down, Riley flails his tongue around when you open his mouth so there's no way it would go down without the water, I don't squirt directly onto the tablet as it might choke him but I squirt sideways into the mouth which still flushes it down.
If food isn't going to be the 'reward' after the tablet due to Billy's fussiness then maybe get the flying frenzy out the same time you go to 'catch' him so he associates being caught/wrapped with an immediate play session of something fun.
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How did he get on at the vets Jen? Any bright ideas from them?
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Well he had an all over check, he has a dodgy tooth which is probably not helping matters. She was worried by how tensely he was holding himself (she could barely feel his stomach as he was tending his muscles so much) and that it was a bit of a vicious circle, he gets tense, feels pain and discomfort, which causes stress and him to get tense and so on.
So we have some metacam for the tooth and stress to see if this helps, she said surgery for the tooth should hold off for a bit until he has calmed some what.
She said if we can't pill him, don't worry and stress ourselves as he will pick up on that. Try, but don't worry too much with the pills.
We also had a bundling masterclass from the vet nurse, she made it look so easy! Wham bam thank you ma'am! Was really useful to get a step by step walk through.
So, we tried ourselves this evening and it went fine! No stress, he calmly walked away afterward rather than diving for cover and accepted a treat. Tomorrow will be the test I think, but we have a plan. He ate his metacam on a small forkfull of Felix before having his bowl of dinner too, so that is sorted.
So, watch and see how he does, deal with the tooth if needed and the next step will be a behaviourist, as that is covered by his insurance.
Just seems so many ups and downs, aren't ragdolls supposed to be laid back, calm, easy going? :rofl:
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And thanks for asking :shy:
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That all sounds quite positive :)
I'm pleased the bundling masterclass was useful, if I hadn't had mine I'm certain Riley would not be here today - it literally saved his life.
For the stress side of things have you tried Zyklene? Not used it myself but think reports are overall positive about it, and it sprinkles on the food so no extra pilling needed.
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Yes they are but of course that doesnt include a full tom used for breeding and not kept with a family.
If the vet said forget about the pills , surely you are not going to try them again?
It sounds like there is a big snuggly boy in there just waiting to be set free. I used to watch Sasa watching the other cats being stroked and could see how much she waanted to be stroked to but just couldnt allow herself. 7 yeats on uddenly she would let me stroke her on the stairs and she waits at the top every night for me to go to bed ;D
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I get my plastic flooring from ebay and its comes in 5metre rolls and is fab
Jen just try and relax I have serial pointers and used to get so stressed and now just clean it up and move on, I use treats and ours get human food as treats we use 10 slices of assorted meats every evening so they associate good stuff its just the human stuffs them with meds and worming tablets :)
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I dont need 5m roll lol
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Well we can confirm the pills make him constipated :-[ poor boy. They also cause urinary retention, making him pee less frequently but much larger quantities. So we have stopped them.
On the plus side he is now refusing to take his metacam on food, so the training has proven itself tonight! :) all done and dusted within 5 minutes, settled back down and eating a treat (he likes a sainsburys range of xmas treats, just in case they stop doing them we have 20 bags in! :rofl:).
He has 2 mats in his fur as well that I need to try and tackle at some point, how do you groom a fussy cat? Waiting for him to be in the right mood... :shy:
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Misa is almost impossible to groom and has very long fur. Because of his arthritis now know why he cant groom a number of places cos he just cant reach.
If he will tollerate I comb parts he will let me and leave the rest, Once the furr grows I try and get a comb under the matt and cut it off above comb but failing this the vet will trim off the matts at his health check..............he has a lovely little electric trimmer and misa is so scared at vets he just lies there.
Try to get Billy used to being combed in unmatted places but tbh I would just leave him right now and try and get other stuff sorted.
Napoleon who was a birman so very simliar coat to a ragdoll used to matt.........they are not supposed to!,,,,,,,,,,and did the same with him!
The parts that matt get very painful which is why they dont like you touching.
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If he is in a good mood I can get away with brushing his top and sides, but no tummy, no siree and his wild mane is a finger comb only. There are 2 mats deep in his chest hair. Had him in a good mood (doing the above finger combing if I haven't just made that up :-: ), and can I find these :censored: matts? No, they have disappeared somewhere?
That myth about ragdoll fur :evillaugh: Zarny's mane is too long for her to groom, she ends up chewing the ends and looks like a mini lion :evillaugh:
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Also a myth about birman fur except Lupin cleans his short!!
Both the bros had wonderful long coats but Ducha never matted.
Oh tell me about the disappearing matt :rofl: :rofl: Misa would say what disappearing matt............you mean the one you catch with the comb!!
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star has been known to bite her own matts out - we have a mikki comb that Gillian recommended - not sure if you knew her but she had about 8 Persians and was a professional groomer so I trusted her judgement on these matters! it keeps on top of issues before they arise now but when we did struggle with stars coat deep mats where shaved off in a few seconds with a wahl machine!
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Just had a mini brainwave... have you tried Rescue Remedy? I know Teresa of Paws Inn used it with good effect, you rub it into the outer ear so depends on whether he's OK with that but worth a go.
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We did try that in the early days but might re-visit it. Had peeing again today outside of tray :censored:
Going to get that carpet protector stuff so we don't get so stressed about the damage he could do.
On the plus side we had a smooth metacam administration earlier, it sounds odd but he gets popped in his carrier (left out all the time as a bed) taken next door, outside of his 'safe' room where we have a table. He is bundled in a towel (as per instructions from lovely vet nurse). Then it's back into the carrier and his safe room for a treat (either food or play). All done with minimal stress for him and us!
We are starting to look at his relationship with Zarny, as I don't think that helps things, she is very me me me which makes it difficult to play or give affection. Started this evening taking her out the room to play with one person and the other stays in with Billy. I also think he likes to guard his litter trays, so might be getting upset if Zarny uses his favourite one? Have adjusted locations slightly to create a bit more distance between trays (within the limits of one room) and he instantly guarded the one furthest away. Starting to think he probably shouldn't have been homed with Zarny who seems oblivious to his attempts to be the dominant cat! (Which could possibly go back to her being a hand rear?)
Anyway, just some thoughts and considerations...
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You are thinking well ;D ;D
I wonder if him not using the tray is as you suspect Zarny had used it.
I know Lupin doesnt like to use a tray that the others have used and he goes into hi ritual of walking to me and away and will take me to tray.................and he watches to make sure I empty it and then doesnt used it but goes away happy. :censored: devil cat bossung me around!
Yes I am sure there is a difference to a hand reared cat and a stud who has just been used for that purpose and not lived in the house with humans and cats.
They will adjust, give then time...............a lot of time!
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You could get some dried catnip, cats normally go mad for it, sprinkle it on top of his litter tray, see if it attracts him to it? :naughty:
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Ah but Billy isn't just any cat, nosiree, he is a connoisseur of catnip and only the very finest fresh catnip will do!
He does react to dried catnip? Only fresh. Weird :Crazy:
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Any cat will tell you fresh is the best lol
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:) what about catnip spray?
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I feel like I am saying no all the time, but nope catnip spray just doesn't do it for them :evillaugh:
On the plus side we have had 2 days no pee, and are managing to metacam him smoothly every night with minimal stress. That lesson with the vet nurse was such a fantastic idea, thank you Helen! It's done really quickly and as soon as he is back in the living room he waits for his treat and takes it from my hand.
Have been reading the Vicky halls book which has proven to be quite helpful, it's where I started the thought about Zarny and noticed the tray guarding. We have a system which, touch wood, seems to be working? I was likely part of the problem, so we both ignore him, don't approach, don't talk to, nothing. Unless he comes to us first. This has been a bit hard but it means all interactions are completely up to him and on his terms. He also gets 3 half an hour play sessions during the evenings (some with, some without Zarny).
He is hiding less, out more (even just out stretched on the floor snoring his head off) and seems a bit more chipper. I don't think he will ever be a cuddly cat, but as long as he is a happy cat that's all I care about.
Early days but we both feel more positive at the moment and will continue as we are.
:) :hug: :hug:
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So pleased the nurse lesson has helped, as his confidence builds you might be able to miss out the carrier bit too - even quicker and less hassle. One step at a time though! Here's hoping that 2016 is going to be his year and pee free! :)
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You sound so much more positive now and hope everything continues to work well ;D ;D
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Hello,
Just thought I would update this as I haven't in a while. Billy is still a wary cat but he has come on leaps and bounds!
We have had 2 wees outside of trays for the whole of January so far!!! ;D and they were for very specific reasons (Zarny peed in his favourite tray and there was some competition over a new comfy bed so he peed in it :evillaugh: )
We now have the corridor open to them, so they aren't stuck in one room :wow: (and still no peeing!)
With the extra space we have extra trays and beds and he seems much less worried about his resources and doesn't guard his trays so much and shares one of the beds with Zarny. We have started putting their dry food all over the flat and on a treat board which has proved popular. He has a bed right at the end of the corridor where he takes himself off to when he wants some peace and quiet but otherwise spends most of his time with us in the living room or chasing Zarny up and down the corridor!
He gets multiple play sessions every day and really loves being able to play. OH can now stroke and brush him (when he is in the mood) which is a massive improvement. He still doesn't like people walking towards him and is a bit of a scaredy cat but he has come on so much. When we have our morning hugs I tell him how much of a brave soldier he is!
So if anyone else thinks about taking on an ex-stud, I would say be prepared to put in the work but it can work! :Luv:
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Wow this is great news and so pleased how he has improved...........................told you time would help and you have done all the right things. Well done ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
So next are the pics :rofl: :rofl:
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It's great to hear how well Billy is doing ;D and that is largely down to your patience.
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It's great to hear how well Billy is doing ;D