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Cat General => General Cat Chat => Topic started by: Den on July 18, 2010, 18:36:29 PM

Title: It shouldn't happen at a vets - Panorama. Thursday, BBC1, 9PM
Post by: Den on July 18, 2010, 18:36:29 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00t66pb

I saw the advert for this a little earlier and it's shocking. I'm not sure if I will be able to watch it, but thought I'd mention it here for others.

One of the vets in my practice scruffed Mig the bun right in front of me after I told her not to. Needless to say she has been banned from having anything to do with my animals - if I can't trust her in front of me, I certainly can't any other time.
Title: Re: It shouldn't happen at a vets - Panorama. Thursday, BBC1, 9PM
Post by: Kittybabe (Ruth) on July 18, 2010, 19:20:38 PM
This is about Medivets. I'm not sure I'll watch it but it might be worth it for those who are clients to form their own opinions on this.
Title: Re: It shouldn't happen at a vets - Panorama. Thursday, BBC1, 9PM
Post by: zenagarfield on July 18, 2010, 19:27:40 PM
i wish i could watch this but i know that i would cry, the poor things. it makes me so angry that these horrible things go on and you leave your pets there with the best intentions
Title: Re: It shouldn't happen at a vets - Panorama. Thursday, BBC1, 9PM
Post by: puggy1975 Zoe on July 18, 2010, 20:14:37 PM
Seen it advertised in paper. Not sure if i can watch but least it is exposing them. Was not sure if would have been vets now but from what i read its not
Title: Re: It shouldn't happen at a vets - Panorama. Thursday, BBC1, 9PM
Post by: Michelle (furbabystar) on July 18, 2010, 20:17:17 PM
but least it is exposing them.

I will try and watch it for exactly that reason....
I almost feel I owe it to the animals involved (does that make sense ?)
Title: Re: It shouldn't happen at a vets - Panorama. Thursday, BBC1, 9PM
Post by: puggy1975 Zoe on July 18, 2010, 20:23:28 PM
Makes great sence. The more i think about it i really should watch to find out what these poor animals get put through.

And spread the word. Exposure is the best thing for people treating animals bad when they meant to be helping.
Title: Re: It shouldn't happen at a vets - Panorama. Thursday, BBC1, 9PM
Post by: Yvonne on July 20, 2010, 11:14:07 AM
I had never heard of Medivets previously so did a search and found this:

http://www.medivet.co.uk/news_view.asp?id=112
Title: Re: It shouldn't happen at a vets - Panorama. Thursday, BBC1, 9PM
Post by: Janeyk on July 20, 2010, 11:54:17 AM
I saw the ad for this last night after Panorama and the few clips they showed turned my stomach.  It made me so angry to see, I won't be able to watch it but thankfully what's been going has been discovered and reported.
Title: Re: It shouldn't happen at a vets - Panorama. Thursday, BBC1, 9PM
Post by: Pinkbear (Julie) on July 20, 2010, 12:02:20 PM
I've seen some trailers (maybe not all versions?) on the telly and to be honest I'll wait to see the whole programme before passing comment. The trailer bits I saw didn't feature anything I haven't already seen or expected to see in a busy vert surgery... A vet surgery is not a natural place to be and a pet's behaviour while there can often be atypical of the way that pet normally behaves. First off, they are not there for fun and are usually in some form of pain when they arrive. Many of the cats I've dealt with are certainly very angry at times of stress or when in pain. And none of my own cats would allow a stranger to scoop them up in a strange place without a strong complaint even when they are fit and well. I know that scruffing can evoke a lot of discussion but it is a relatively safe way of handling angry or stressed animals. It might be upsetting to watch but there's usually a good reason why vets do it... I've never met a vet or vet nurse that enjoyed making an animal upset.

Hopefully this will not just be a sensationalist piece designed to alarm people with no conclusive evidence. If I see blatant mistreatment or abuse in the full programme then that's another matter... but I'd also like to see some unbiased professional comments featured in the programme and an explanation of the correct and safes ways to handle distressed and dangerous animals.  ;)
Title: Re: It shouldn't happen at a vets - Panorama. Thursday, BBC1, 9PM
Post by: Den on July 20, 2010, 12:22:36 PM
Without wanting this to turn this thread into a discussion on scruffing. I know fully well my vets will scruff Memphy and I've given them my permission to do whatever they have to with him. He is very, very dangerous in a vets surgery. He's a total Jekyll and Hyde. However, Mig is as cool as a cucumber. My vet said they usually don't like dealing with rabbits as they are a bit of a nightmare for them (my vets are large animal), but they find Mig a pleasure because he is so good, so relaxed and so well behaved. He doesn't flinch instead he just has a good wander around being nosey and leaving mountains of hair over everything. Even when he was having his stitches out he just led there and the nurse said she's never had a rabbit that easy. Yet when I took him and had the 'now banned vet' she was soooooooooooooooooooo rough with him. I told her he doesn't need scruffing and will just sit there but she did it her own way. Miggy loves the vets and is certainly not stressed. I don't mind scruffing if it needs to be done, such as with Memphy, but not when it doesn't need to be done, such as Mig. None of the other vets/nurses would ever consider grabbing Mig by the neck .. however, they are getting to the stage of doing a coin toss over who is the lucky soul who gets to deal with Memphis   :scared:
Title: Re: It shouldn't happen at a vets - Panorama. Thursday, BBC1, 9PM
Post by: Pinkbear (Julie) on July 20, 2010, 12:34:05 PM
I think that's the crux of this though, Den. The trailer showed a vet nurse scruffing a cat totally out of context with background information. For many folks not used to this kind of thing the sight of that might distress them and cause a knee jerk reaction without understanding why it was scruffed or thinking about the best way to transfer an unknown, strange potentially distressed and dangerous animal from A to B.  :tired: I am afraid in a vet surgery you WILL see distressed and upset animals... you wouldn't go into a hospital and be stunned to see sick people.  :shy:

I do so hope it's an unbiased and fair programme and can substantiate it's points.... what are the chances of me getting my wish?  :innocent:

Title: Re: It shouldn't happen at a vets - Panorama. Thursday, BBC1, 9PM
Post by: Janeyk on July 20, 2010, 12:41:33 PM
Vets are supposed to be caring and the clips I saw last night didn't look pleasant,  there was only one scuffing clip but the animals looked to be treated roughly and cruel I thought a dog was being hit.   I can't watch programmes like that so won't be able to comment after it's been on.
Title: Re: It shouldn't happen at a vets - Panorama. Thursday, BBC1, 9PM
Post by: Kirst on July 20, 2010, 16:42:28 PM
I shall watch it with interest - My local emergency vet is a branch of Medivet , and on the occasions I have been there my cats have been treated like royalty , I couldn't have asked for better service.
Title: Re: It shouldn't happen at a vets - Panorama. Thursday, BBC1, 9PM
Post by: Claire_smc on July 22, 2010, 12:58:10 PM
There's an article here explaining some of the stuff that will be on the programme, written by the person who did all the undercover filming

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1296672/Medivet-undercover-investigation-sick-animals-abused-pet-owners-ripped-trainees-carry-life-death-procedures.html
Title: Re: It shouldn't happen at a vets - Panorama. Thursday, BBC1, 9PM
Post by: Den on July 22, 2010, 13:16:03 PM
I don't think I'll be watching it but will read what people have to say about it out of interest. I've kind of learned to stay away from BBC exposes after Pedigree Dogs Exposed  :scared:
Title: Re: It shouldn't happen at a vets - Panorama. Thursday, BBC1, 9PM
Post by: Rosella moggy on July 22, 2010, 13:31:52 PM
I read that article Claire but like Den would prefer not to watch programme and rely on other Purrs peeps to let me know what they think. 

We use an independent practice but owuld have to rely on Vets Now for out of hours cover.  As it is based at a local PDSA practice, I would hope that it is staffed by caring people  :-:

It is a bit like a horror story.  Truly shocking  :(
Title: Re: It shouldn't happen at a vets - Panorama. Thursday, BBC1, 9PM
Post by: Pinkbear (Julie) on July 22, 2010, 14:07:15 PM
There has just been a bit about it on the lunchtime news as well. They showed a highly distressed dog which was obviously in some kind of pain as well. It seems to be a teaching establishment of some kind, or at least a place where they take on trainees, and this 'student vet assistant', AKA the under cover reporter, couldn't put a catheter in the dog's leg to administer a pre-med. Then she made a huge thing of being asked to do it because she was unqualified. She also claimed another member of staff had hit the dog but the clip didn't show that happen, well not as far as I could see. It was probably her bad luck that her first catheterisation happened to be on a large and angry dog but I suspect it was a case of 'in at the deep end' to test her character and see if she really was prepared to stick it out. (Lots of wannabes fancy a bash at working in a vet but when the reality bites they run for the hills. I have always felt I couldn't/can't face it because I see too much of the pain, grief and ignorance of some owners I see during my CP work. ) It looked like the supervision she had wasn't ideal but then again we do not know what else was going in that day... perhaps all the qualified people were in another room fighting to save an animals life?

It is very clear, though, that they are using this footage of this poor dog's state to alarm and sensationalize. I've had to carry out minor things such as cleaning wound sites or applying medication to cats and kittens and when they are distressed the sound of crying and struggling will break your heart. That doesn't mean I'm being careless or heartless while doing it.... but to the outsider it looks and sounds like torture. With a large dog brute force with the restraint sometimes has to be applied I would imagine and sometimes it's going to go badly as was the case in the footage it seems.

They also showed clear evidence of bill hoiking and covering up an in-house whoopsie which resulted in a minor injury to a dog's pad. There was some evidence of other minor botches and perhaps one or two staff being a bit iffy in their practices and approach.... but no worse than our general complaints about Vets Now re pricing and I've seen similar complaints about attitudes and handling on this forum. Every good practice gets lumbered with a dodgy nurse or vet on occasion.... they tend not to last long once the truth is known!

Still open minded here and will watch the full programme with interest. But so far I'm not convinced this practice deserves a Panarama style lynching. Vets Now is a far better target for them!

That link, Claire, written by this 'under cover' girl, read like she's seriously gunning for the Pulitzer! Far too flowery for a basic piece of journalism for my nature... makes me suspect whether she has ponced up her evidence as well as her text.
Title: Re: It shouldn't happen at a vets - Panorama. Thursday, BBC1, 9PM
Post by: Claire_smc on July 22, 2010, 15:00:37 PM
Yep, I felt a little uneasy while reading it, not sure why but something about her just didn't sit right with me. I won't be watching it either as I don't have a TV but I will read with interest what people think. Personally I think it will be biased and sensationalist and out of context myself too and should be watched with an open mind.
Title: Re: It shouldn't happen at a vets - Panorama. Thursday, BBC1, 9PM
Post by: Susanne (urbantigers) on July 22, 2010, 16:24:46 PM
I will watch it with an open mind.  So often these programmes set out with an agenda and then edit footage in a way that seems to prove their point, but doesn't necessarily tell the whole story.
Title: Re: It shouldn't happen at a vets - Panorama. Thursday, BBC1, 9PM
Post by: Den on July 22, 2010, 18:19:09 PM
According to BBC News just now having a little JRT dog like the one named Lulu can cost an owner £22,000 in their lifetime. Where do they come up with these figures  :Crazy: if BBC news can be so OTT with their 'facts' then hate to see Panorama tonight.
Title: Re: It shouldn't happen at a vets - Panorama. Thursday, BBC1, 9PM
Post by: Desley (booktigger) on July 22, 2010, 18:22:18 PM
According to BBC News just now having a little JRT dog like the one named Lulu can cost an owner £22,000 in their lifetime. Where do they come up with these figures  :Crazy: if BBC news can be so OTT with their 'facts' then hate to see Panorama tonight.

Just what rescues need - overexagerated figures to put people off pet ownership!!
Title: Re: It shouldn't happen at a vets - Panorama. Thursday, BBC1, 9PM
Post by: Feline Costumier on July 22, 2010, 18:25:05 PM
Well my vet practice when I lived in London was a small, local branch of Medivet and I found them to be absolutely brilliant. They had two nurses, both of whom made the effort to remember who you were and who your pets are. I saw two different vets in my time with them and they were both really lovely. Dave used to get massive cuddles with the vet cradling him like a baby while discussing him :Luv: Neither of mine are in the least bit bothered by going to the vet and both vet and nurses were full of praise for my two whenever we went in. When Chilli went AWOL they were lovely and really helpful.

So I will watch with interest and a very open mind being that my experience with them was so positive.
Title: Re: It shouldn't happen at a vets - Panorama. Thursday, BBC1, 9PM
Post by: Mark on July 22, 2010, 20:41:49 PM
I think bad vets are the exception. There was a programme last year about a vet in Canterbury that was struck off for bad practice - a really nasty, evil  :censored:  >:(

A woman that worked in a petshop also told me how he abused her sick cat when he came to PTS at home. I won't go int detail but suffic to say, he should be PTS himself for what he did.

I am recording it but will have to watch when OH isn't around. I would like to keep an open mind about it.
Title: Re: It shouldn't happen at a vets - Panorama. Thursday, BBC1, 9PM
Post by: Janeyk on July 22, 2010, 20:53:31 PM
Yes the vast majority of vets will be extemely caring but there will be exceptions and, from what I gather that's what will be shown, not out to say all vets are the same but exposing what's been videoed etc and what I saw was very upsetting.
Title: Re: It shouldn't happen at a vets - Panorama. Thursday, BBC1, 9PM
Post by: Christine (Blip) on July 22, 2010, 20:56:35 PM
I am about to watch it, with a completely open mind.
Title: Re: It shouldn't happen at a vets - Panorama. Thursday, BBC1, 9PM
Post by: Kirst on July 22, 2010, 22:10:05 PM
Hmmm I jusy hope that people will not let their pet suffer out of hours rather than take it to Medivet.


I thought the whole thing was very onesided , I am sure there are plenty of good Medivet practioners out there.
Title: Re: It shouldn't happen at a vets - Panorama. Thursday, BBC1, 9PM
Post by: Feline Costumier on July 22, 2010, 22:22:05 PM
I think, as awful as a lot of what they showed was, it has to be considered the size of the business and the length of time she worked for them at various branches to build up the cases shown.

There will be bad everywhere, in every profession and particularly if someone in a position of power filters out their own bad practices to those being managed by them.

I don't think it is anywhere near as bad as I was expecting and to my relief neither my past branch or the vets and nurses who I have dealt with were featured in the programme.

I stand by what I think and would happily use my branch of Medivet again (Finchley).
Title: Re: It shouldn't happen at a vets - Panorama. Thursday, BBC1, 9PM
Post by: nickynoo93 on July 22, 2010, 22:24:19 PM
I have seen a little bit of it, in the ad breaks of Hotel Inspector! I will watch it tomorrow on BBC iPlayer, and keep an open mind until I've watched it all.
if My kitties needed an emergency vet I would use whoever I could to see them.

Nicky
Title: Re: It shouldn't happen at a vets - Panorama. Thursday, BBC1, 9PM
Post by: Angiew on July 22, 2010, 22:29:04 PM
I think the pricing things annoyed me more than the medical things but then they were nothing I wouldn't expect - and a lot more from my favorite company "vets now"

I was annoyed at the blood letting thing at the rescue though!
Title: Re: It shouldn't happen at a vets - Panorama. Thursday, BBC1, 9PM
Post by: Pinkbear (Julie) on July 22, 2010, 22:41:41 PM
Well, well, well...  :sneaky:

I think I knew what kind of programme this was going to be when they came to the catheter incident which was featured on the trailer. The supervisor asked her specifically if she'd been trained to do it and she replied yes, she had. It was quite reasonable of the supervisor to expect her to not have a problem.  :innocent:

The biggest gripe on the programme was overcharging, which I think a lot of us agree almost all vets try to rack up the bill to some extent if they think they can get away with it. One Medivet practice tried to fiddle an insurance claim (presumably to help the owner) as it was a per condition policy. A dog presented with multiple symptoms and needed multiple treatments but there was one root cause which Medivet tried to cover up. By making three separate claims they did not exceed the policy's annual per condition limit.... Panorama reported them to the insurance company and now the owner faces a huge bill to cover the excess. Nice, Panorama!  :doh:

The programme admitted they did not witness any incidents of deliberate cruelty. Apparently she was under cover for 9 months and worked in 15 different practices and I think they showed around 4 incidents of poor practice. There was one male student whose attitude over a distressed Shar Pei stunk but he was confronted and later apologised. But there was also other footage of good, caring staff. In truth, if they can only find 4 cases over nine months in so many practices, I don't think Medivet have a huge problem.

I think they have got to look again at supervising students get and I don't like their business model. Then again I don't like any chains where staff change frequently as you never get a chance to develop a rapport. Overall I don't think they've proved the case about Medivet's being a bad place to take pets.

And can I say... the struck off vet that they featured... I was really impressed with the way he safely handled some very angry and potentially dangerous animals. Turning around the cat to distract it while giving it a jab was genius. 
Title: Re: It shouldn't happen at a vets - Panorama. Thursday, BBC1, 9PM
Post by: Mark on July 22, 2010, 23:00:25 PM
I posted about this before. There is a woman that now owns a window-cleaning business. She was telling me that back in the 80s when she was about 18, she worked for a local vet (who is still practicing)  and he was really into tinkering with computers. When animals came in for dentals, he would put them out and get her, an 18 year old unqualified nurse to do the dental while he went off to another room to play with computers.
Title: Re: It shouldn't happen at a vets - Panorama. Thursday, BBC1, 9PM
Post by: Angiew on July 22, 2010, 23:07:07 PM
Panorama reported them to the insurance company and now the owner faces a huge bill to cover the excess. Nice, Panorama!  :doh:



thought they said Medivet had offered to pay this?

I think us lot are too experienced with vets to be overly shocked but I bet the general public will be - shame it wasn't vets now!
Title: Re: It shouldn't happen at a vets - Panorama. Thursday, BBC1, 9PM
Post by: Den on July 22, 2010, 23:19:42 PM
It's what happened with Pedigree Dogs Exposed. I wasn't shocked and was really angry over the one sided nonsense. However, most saw it at face value and assumed all Ped dogs were like this. Not the fact it was a very tiny minority and not the norm. So not all vets will be like the ones shown at Medivet. However, the general public will just have the one side as presented by Panorama - they will be shocked. I've read a few comments and people have said they will be boycotting them. It might not look bad if you've got the experience and you might be able to point out all the things done right but all the public will see are the things done wrong.
Title: Re: It shouldn't happen at a vets - Panorama. Thursday, BBC1, 9PM
Post by: Mark on July 22, 2010, 23:46:31 PM
I messed up the recording so will have to watch it on iPlayer.
Title: Re: It shouldn't happen at a vets - Panorama. Thursday, BBC1, 9PM
Post by: Pinkbear (Julie) on July 22, 2010, 23:53:25 PM
Panorama reported them to the insurance company and now the owner faces a huge bill to cover the excess. Nice, Panorama!  :doh:



thought they said Medivet had offered to pay this?



Didn't catch the bit when they said that but that's a good gesture.  ;)

Yes, you're right about us being so used to vets. My own vet calls me his Skiiing holiday.  :rofl: :rofl:
Title: Re: It shouldn't happen at a vets - Panorama. Thursday, BBC1, 9PM
Post by: LesleyW on July 23, 2010, 00:31:04 AM
Panorama reported them to the insurance company and now the owner faces a huge bill to cover the excess. Nice, Panorama!  :doh:



thought they said Medivet had offered to pay this?


Didn't catch the bit when they said that but that's a good gesture.  ;)


They said that Medivet offered to pay customer's excess but in fact they were trying to do him a favour in the first place by claiming three different conditions so that he could continue to claim a further £1,000 for the ongoing condition of diabetes, now the customer will not be able to make a further claim.

I thought the problem was quite one-sided.  We never knew what the reporter said in her interview to get the job in the first place and, as stated previously, she only had to say "no" to the Nurse when asked if she had ever done a catheter before.  Alot of the accusations were not actually recorded but reported by her after the event.

Having worked in a vets, the animal's behaviour in strange surroundings can be completely different to that experienced at home by the owner.  Even my own dogs act differently when in the vets than at home and that's after coming with me everyday for five years.  Although the handling of the Red Setter was quite rough around the neck area, when that was what is was being treated for, the dog made the event look worse than it could have been.

I personally think the worst part of the programme was when the Vet and nurse were trying to anaesthetise the cat and the Nurse was holding it up like a ragdoll saying "respond to me now".  I found that offensive and repulsive.
Title: Re: It shouldn't happen at a vets - Panorama. Thursday, BBC1, 9PM
Post by: Kirst on July 23, 2010, 06:46:31 AM
Thats what bothered me the most too - althought the cat would have been unaware it's extremely un-professional and as she said herself , if it was her cat she sould have been livid!
Title: Re: It shouldn't happen at a vets - Panorama. Thursday, BBC1, 9PM
Post by: Desley (booktigger) on July 23, 2010, 07:52:20 AM
I found it nowhere near as bad as I thought, and there were really only the Shar Pei and the anaesthetic incident that weren't good. I thought Medivet were good at trying to separate the claims so the owner could continue claiming for the diabetes, what a shame that was reported. I also thought the bloke complaining about the price of an MRI was wrong - there are a few of us on here who have seen prices for that, and they have never been less than £2k - of course human ones are going to be cheaper, vets have to pay for the machine and then try and recoup some of the cost, and fewer animals than people will use it.
Title: Re: It shouldn't happen at a vets - Panorama. Thursday, BBC1, 9PM
Post by: Susanne (urbantigers) on July 23, 2010, 08:06:43 AM
I agree with what most have said - some not too good stuff but you are bound to get some of that with a large chain.  I thought the insurance was just to help the owner so, whilst not exactly ethical and the insurance company may well see it as fraud, wasn't something I'd criticise them for.
Title: Re: It shouldn't happen at a vets - Panorama. Thursday, BBC1, 9PM
Post by: Sue P (Paddysmum) on July 23, 2010, 08:20:56 AM


I found the comments of the veterinary expert interesting, as he seemed to think there were a number of incidents where the welfare of the pets being treated was at risk due to the procedure employed.

The RCVS chap just seemed embarrassed and ill at ease when answering questions about whether "trainees" (not junior student veterinary nurses") should be undertaking any of the procedures such as taking blood while the vet was absent etc as he knew it shouldn't happen but clearly expected that it had already happened given the presence of the Panorama investigator.  And I have to say that if I found anyone treating either of my pets the way that Aron the Vet Nurse did witht he Shar-pei, or the way the girl who couldn't administer the anaesthetic properly to the cat that Lesley refers to, I'd have been very likely up on an assault charge.

I also think that despite what medivet had to say about not being a well-balanced programme (well no, it wouldn't be - they're made to expose malpractice not extoll good practice)  they could hardly deny the blatant potential intention to re-use  transfusion blood (of which the veterinary expert engaged to comment on the practice was highly critical and agreed it should have been binned, end-of) the over-charging for items which were never used, and the unnecessary "testing" to rackup costs.  

Julie, thanks for explaining what the vet was doing while distracting that cat.  I still didn't like to see it, and wouldn't be happy if I discovered my vet using that method on my cat.

Our vet is a sole practitioner, and he's up against it in terms of competition and the latest up to date hospital equipment etc, but for all that, he assesses an animal's behaviour prior to any action.  He's occasionally said to me when Paddy's needed an injection or tartar removed from his teeth (for which he can't have any anaesthetic procedure)  "hold him tight, because this will hurt and he'll scratch..."   I've never had to hold Paddy tight, and he has never made any attempt to scratch, a fact of which our vet always comments "I keep forgetting, he's a very respectful patient..."  

If a vet assumed he was going to scratch and deployed a method such as that "just in case" I'd be horrified and disgusted, and I just don't know after watching last night's programme whether many of those vets were particulatly committed to their jobs.  There was a marked contrast between the older mixed animal practice vet, and the younger vets, one of whom seemed very unsure of herself.  Trying to intubate a cat when she hadn't given the anaesthetic throat relxant, not realising she had got it wrong but persisting anyway not only looked uncomfortable to watch, but the expert did comment that it was dangerous and could have seriously damaged the cat.  

And what about the dog who had a skin condition?  He injured his paw when the vet nurse caught it in the door of his cage (after accidentally hitting his head too, she said) and as a result he had cut his pad.  They admitted it had definitely happened in the surgery but then made a blatant phone call to the owner saying it must've happened on his way to the vet and that they could sell her a cream for £13 if she wanted it.  The girl then crowed about what a good job she'd done flogging the cream and blagging the cover-up.  Not pleasant, and no way they could deny that wasn't what they did.

I'd agree that lack of adequate supervision appeared to be the biggest problem.  

The programme did say that most of the procedures which were carried out were carried out correctly and with a good standard of care, but highlighted that really we need to be aware of what can (and does) go on in some practices, and to have an awareness about us when taking our pets to the vet.     The fact Medivet made a 20 million pound profit last year was quite telling.    They took free blood from rescue greyhounds, sold it on at a massive profit, but in return gave free dentals to the rescue dogs.  After the way one of their vet nurses carried out a dental, I'd elect to keep my blood and do without the dental if I was a greyhound.  Then again,  as to the dogs in question, they don't get the choice, do they?

Lots of food for thought.

Title: Re: It shouldn't happen at a vets - Panorama. Thursday, BBC1, 9PM
Post by: Teresa Pawcats on July 23, 2010, 09:07:38 AM
I actually found the program boring, I kept thinking keep watching and we will get to the important bit soon. Yes rules broken, animals endangered and some staff showing total lack of respect for those precious lives, but at the end of the day it was BBC sensationalism.
Cant help but think this was a waste of an hours air time which could have been used to highlight other things.

In truth I thank God for my wonderful independent veterinary practice and all the caring staff there.

   
Title: Re: It shouldn't happen at a vets - Panorama. Thursday, BBC1, 9PM
Post by: Christine (Blip) on July 23, 2010, 09:27:32 AM
Some thoughtful comments here, to which I have nothing especially to add.

My own vet has a sign up today inviting people to ask questions or have a guided tour 'in the light of recent media coverage'.
Title: Re: It shouldn't happen at a vets - Panorama. Thursday, BBC1, 9PM
Post by: Pinkbear (Julie) on July 23, 2010, 10:25:20 AM
My own vet has an annual open day and lays on a sort of garden party. Everyone can walk around behind the scenes and see everything and ask any questions. There's no real animals being treated as he 'closes' for business that day so the cages and kennels are empty but are occupied by bandaged up teddy bears and stuffed toys. Last year he had even had a fluffy snake draft excluder fitted with a drip in one of the pens.  :evillaugh:

Title: Re: It shouldn't happen at a vets - Panorama. Thursday, BBC1, 9PM
Post by: Christine (Blip) on July 23, 2010, 10:38:59 AM
My own vet has an annual open day and lays on a sort of garden party. Everyone can walk around behind the scenes and see everything and ask any questions. There's no real animals being treated as he 'closes' for business that day so the cages and kennels are empty but are occupied by bandaged up teddy bears and stuffed toys. Last year he had even had a fluffy snake draft excluder fitted with a drip in one of the pens.  :evillaugh:

Ours does exactly the same, complete with teddy bears.  We went a couple of years ago: it was quite interesting to see behind the scenes.  Apropos of nothing very much, they have now opened a small cattery next door called 'The Pawchester' :).
Title: Re: It shouldn't happen at a vets - Panorama. Thursday, BBC1, 9PM
Post by: Bren22 on July 23, 2010, 10:45:38 AM
The programme was far less horrifying than the trailers had suggested.  I was getting a bit bored to tell the truth - and also seeing worrying likenesses to the NHS - uncaring nurses, sloppy supervision etc.  Then it was interrupted by a phone call from a gent I rehomed Treacle2 with, so we talked about how well she was getting on with his little dog and him.  A much more rewarding time.
Title: Re: It shouldn't happen at a vets - Panorama. Thursday, BBC1, 9PM
Post by: Den on July 23, 2010, 10:54:14 AM
I've just been following the discussion in other places too and I have to say ...  :scared:

There are a lot more negative comments and people have been genuinely shocked/disgusted/sick to the stomach over the programme elsewhere. From reading Purrs I think Hmmm, so it wasn't so bad after all. Actually, I asked my mum what she thought and she said she was expecting worse. I read other places and there is a lot of "never going to Medivet ever again" "wouldn't touch "Medivet with a bargepole" type comments. Definitely a lot of use of the word "cruelty".
Title: Re: It shouldn't happen at a vets - Panorama. Thursday, BBC1, 9PM
Post by: Mark on July 23, 2010, 11:20:50 AM
Just watched it. Most of the major issues were about greed rather than cruelty. I agree it is awful that inexperienced staff were doing things they aren't trained for. Obviously everyone has to start somewhere but they should have been supervised. Greed again. Often animals have to be handled firmly but gently to get things done quickly and safely. One of the things that disturbed me the most was the dog with the cut foot. Accidents do happen but they should have apologised and treated the dog rather than lying to cover up and making the customer pay. The moron that said she had 'blagged it' should be sacked - in fact she should be charged with fraud. I was also concerned about giving the increased doses - as the man from the RCVS said, it is controlled death and should only be done by highly experienced people.
Title: Re: It shouldn't happen at a vets - Panorama. Thursday, BBC1, 9PM
Post by: Canterbury_cats (Sharon) on July 23, 2010, 11:56:56 AM
I am not actually sure whey the original thread had a deleted button on it this morning but now this all appears! Nevertheless.. i did watch the program.. bearing in mind my Niece is a emergency vet nurse at VetsNow which is like Medivet a large umbrella emergency vet company... There are some vets in this area that are under the umbrella CVS org as well.. Anyhow... knowing what i know from my neice background even sjhe eas uneasy with the way some of these animals were poorly treated... we all know good vets and bad and behind the scenes this trust is carried through and they have the animals interest at heart..
Smaller independant vets struggle with big organisations taking over practices... In the end we all have our opinions how well our own vets are... Rescue sometimes highlights the divide between owned animals and rescues.. as if a vet goes on to treat a stray there is not usually any money it in.. (unless a rescues comes in to take the animal on)... 
This morning i have received 2 emails re the program from 2 different vets... so it obv caused a bit of a stir in the proffession
Title: Re: It shouldn't happen at a vets - Panorama. Thursday, BBC1, 9PM
Post by: Pinkbear (Julie) on July 23, 2010, 15:08:20 PM

There are a lot more negative comments and people have been genuinely shocked/disgusted/sick to the stomach over the programme elsewhere.

Out of interest, were these dog forums?  :shify: I have often felt dog forums are a bit more 'militant' than us.  :evillaugh: Also a high proportion of experienced rescue volunteers (and lets face it between us we've more time in more vet surgeries than a standard pet owner ever will) have posted to this thread and so I feel it has a more objective and rational feel to it and less knee jerk and emotional responses.  ;)
Title: Re: It shouldn't happen at a vets - Panorama. Thursday, BBC1, 9PM
Post by: clarenmax on July 23, 2010, 15:22:10 PM
I've just watched this on iplayer, and was expecting to see much worse if I'm honest.

Title: Re: It shouldn't happen at a vets - Panorama. Thursday, BBC1, 9PM
Post by: Den on July 23, 2010, 18:18:33 PM

There are a lot more negative comments and people have been genuinely shocked/disgusted/sick to the stomach over the programme elsewhere.

Out of interest, were these dog forums?  :shify: I have often felt dog forums are a bit more 'militant' than us.  :evillaugh: Also a high proportion of experienced rescue volunteers (and lets face it between us we've more time in more vet surgeries than a standard pet owner ever will) have posted to this thread and so I feel it has a more objective and rational feel to it and less knee jerk and emotional responses.  ;)

Two were, yes  :-[ But one wasn't. One was non animal related.
Title: Re: It shouldn't happen at a vets - Panorama. Thursday, BBC1, 9PM
Post by: Christine (Blip) on July 23, 2010, 20:06:23 PM

There are a lot more negative comments and people have been genuinely shocked/disgusted/sick to the stomach over the programme elsewhere.

Out of interest, were these dog forums?  :shify: I have often felt dog forums are a bit more 'militant' than us.  :evillaugh: Also a high proportion of experienced rescue volunteers (and lets face it between us we've more time in more vet surgeries than a standard pet owner ever will) have posted to this thread and so I feel it has a more objective and rational feel to it and less knee jerk and emotional responses.  ;)

Wise words, Pinkbear.  Wise words indeed  :hug: 
Title: Re: It shouldn't happen at a vets - Panorama. Thursday, BBC1, 9PM
Post by: Desley (booktigger) on July 25, 2010, 11:40:47 AM
This has just been posted on CC

Updated response from Medivet... http://www.medivet.co.uk/news_view.asp?id=115
Title: Re: It shouldn't happen at a vets - Panorama. Thursday, BBC1, 9PM
Post by: Sue P (Paddysmum) on July 25, 2010, 11:48:46 AM


Interesting.  Good to see they're now investigating nad in some instances have taken action.  Shame it had to happen in the first case.  Maybe bettre training and supervision of their staff will result.  Then again, maybe not.......
Title: Re: It shouldn't happen at a vets - Panorama. Thursday, BBC1, 9PM
Post by: Janeyk on July 25, 2010, 11:53:20 AM


Interesting.  Good to see they're now investigating nad in some instances have taken action.  Shame it had to happen in the first case.  Maybe bettre training and supervision of their staff will result.  Then again, maybe not.......

I agree
Title: Re: It shouldn't happen at a vets - Panorama. Thursday, BBC1, 9PM
Post by: Pinkbear (Julie) on July 25, 2010, 12:07:28 PM
Think they overlooked the blood recycling bit. The guy who ordered that to be done was the guy who co-owned the company.  :tired:
Title: Re: It shouldn't happen at a vets - Panorama. Thursday, BBC1, 9PM
Post by: Angiew on July 25, 2010, 14:18:16 PM
Think they overlooked the blood recycling bit. The guy who ordered that to be done was the guy who co-owned the company.  :tired:

tbh, I would think this fairly standard practice. How many bags of Hartmans are you charged for for example and many more drugs where you pay for the lots but only use a portion.
Title: Re: It shouldn't happen at a vets - Panorama. Thursday, BBC1, 9PM
Post by: Sue P (Paddysmum) on July 25, 2010, 21:03:00 PM
Think they overlooked the blood recycling bit. The guy who ordered that to be done was the guy who co-owned the company.  :tired:

tbh, I would think this fairly standard practice. How many bags of Hartmans are you charged for for example and many more drugs where you pay for the lots but only use a portion.

Angie - think it was more the fact the inference was this guy was going to use a blood product for another animal when it should in fact have been binned.
Title: Re: It shouldn't happen at a vets - Panorama. Thursday, BBC1, 9PM
Post by: ayjaybee on July 27, 2010, 12:50:19 PM
Well, well, well...  :sneaky:

I think I knew what kind of programme this was going to be when they came to the catheter incident which was featured on the trailer. The supervisor asked her specifically if she'd been trained to do it and she replied yes, she had. It was quite reasonable of the supervisor to expect her to not have a problem.  :innocent:

The biggest gripe on the programme was overcharging, which I think a lot of us agree almost all vets try to rack up the bill to some extent if they think they can get away with it. One Medivet practice tried to fiddle an insurance claim (presumably to help the owner) as it was a per condition policy. A dog presented with multiple symptoms and needed multiple treatments but there was one root cause which Medivet tried to cover up. By making three separate claims they did not exceed the policy's annual per condition limit.... Panorama reported them to the insurance company and now the owner faces a huge bill to cover the excess. Nice, Panorama!  :doh:

The programme admitted they did not witness any incidents of deliberate cruelty. Apparently she was under cover for 9 months and worked in 15 different practices and I think they showed around 4 incidents of poor practice. There was one male student whose attitude over a distressed Shar Pei stunk but he was confronted and later apologised. But there was also other footage of good, caring staff. In truth, if they can only find 4 cases over nine months in so many practices, I don't think Medivet have a huge problem.

I think they have got to look again at supervising students get and I don't like their business model. Then again I don't like any chains where staff change frequently as you never get a chance to develop a rapport. Overall I don't think they've proved the case about Medivet's being a bad place to take pets.

And can I say... the struck off vet that they featured... I was really impressed with the way he safely handled some very angry and potentially dangerous animals. Turning around the cat to distract it while giving it a jab was genius. 


Just to elaborate on the overcharging and costs - The profession could and should be more transparent about prescription policies. Most pet owners are unaware of their legal rights with regard to prescription medicines for their pets and are losing out financially as a result.
During a veterinary consultation, if a prescription medicine is recommended as a treatment, a prescription should be offered by the vet as an alternative to purchasing the medications from the surgery. By law this prescription can then be fulfilled by any vet, pharmacist or, usually more economically, by an online veterinary pharmacy.
In many cases pet owners are being engineered into spending far more than is actually necessary by getting treatment for their pets from their local veterinary surgery.
Veterinary prescriptions are charged at a “reasonable fee” which may be as much as £20 and certainly more than the real cost of the treatment.  Many vets further exploit pet owners by insisting on one prescription per medication or refusing to allow repeats. Both these tactics are unprofessional and little short of extortion where one prescription could easily cover all medications required, with repeats marked for a maximum of six months.
In the case of animals with a lifetime condition this can create a massive and unnecessary financial burden for the pet owner while the veterinary practice reaps the benefit.
Very often it is the animals that suffer when owners cannot afford to continue with prescription medications or veterinary diets. If veterinary surgeries are encouraged to act in line with legal requirements to practise an open and fair prescription policy, then pet owners can explore alternative options for their fulfilment.  By shopping around, particularly at online sites (such as www.vetuk.co.uk), owners can access significantly better value medications and special dietary foods for their pets, with the added advantage of delivery to home.
The fact that this issue is not being addressed indicates a complete lack of owners’ understanding of procedures in the veterinary profession which many practices are exploiting to the detriment of the very animals they purport to treat.
Title: Re: It shouldn't happen at a vets - Panorama. Thursday, BBC1, 9PM
Post by: Janeyk on July 27, 2010, 16:11:31 PM
Well, well, well...  :sneaky:

I think I knew what kind of programme this was going to be when they came to the catheter incident which was featured on the trailer. The supervisor asked her specifically if she'd been trained to do it and she replied yes, she had. It was quite reasonable of the supervisor to expect her to not have a problem.  :innocent:

The biggest gripe on the programme was overcharging, which I think a lot of us agree almost all vets try to rack up the bill to some extent if they think they can get away with it. One Medivet practice tried to fiddle an insurance claim (presumably to help the owner) as it was a per condition policy. A dog presented with multiple symptoms and needed multiple treatments but there was one root cause which Medivet tried to cover up. By making three separate claims they did not exceed the policy's annual per condition limit.... Panorama reported them to the insurance company and now the owner faces a huge bill to cover the excess. Nice, Panorama!  :doh:

The programme admitted they did not witness any incidents of deliberate cruelty. Apparently she was under cover for 9 months and worked in 15 different practices and I think they showed around 4 incidents of poor practice. There was one male student whose attitude over a distressed Shar Pei stunk but he was confronted and later apologised. But there was also other footage of good, caring staff. In truth, if they can only find 4 cases over nine months in so many practices, I don't think Medivet have a huge problem.

I think they have got to look again at supervising students get and I don't like their business model. Then again I don't like any chains where staff change frequently as you never get a chance to develop a rapport. Overall I don't think they've proved the case about Medivet's being a bad place to take pets.

And can I say... the struck off vet that they featured... I was really impressed with the way he safely handled some very angry and potentially dangerous animals. Turning around the cat to distract it while giving it a jab was genius. 


Just to elaborate on the overcharging and costs - The profession could and should be more transparent about prescription policies. Most pet owners are unaware of their legal rights with regard to prescription medicines for their pets and are losing out financially as a result.
During a veterinary consultation, if a prescription medicine is recommended as a treatment, a prescription should be offered by the vet as an alternative to purchasing the medications from the surgery. By law this prescription can then be fulfilled by any vet, pharmacist or, usually more economically, by an online veterinary pharmacy.
In many cases pet owners are being engineered into spending far more than is actually necessary by getting treatment for their pets from their local veterinary surgery.
Veterinary prescriptions are charged at a “reasonable fee” which may be as much as £20 and certainly more than the real cost of the treatment.  Many vets further exploit pet owners by insisting on one prescription per medication or refusing to allow repeats. Both these tactics are unprofessional and little short of extortion where one prescription could easily cover all medications required, with repeats marked for a maximum of six months.
In the case of animals with a lifetime condition this can create a massive and unnecessary financial burden for the pet owner while the veterinary practice reaps the benefit.
Very often it is the animals that suffer when owners cannot afford to continue with prescription medications or veterinary diets. If veterinary surgeries are encouraged to act in line with legal requirements to practise an open and fair prescription policy, then pet owners can explore alternative options for their fulfilment.  By shopping around, particularly at online sites (such as www.vetuk.co.uk), owners can access significantly better value medications and special dietary foods for their pets, with the added advantage of delivery to home.
The fact that this issue is not being addressed indicates a complete lack of owners’ understanding of procedures in the veterinary profession which many practices are exploiting to the detriment of the very animals they purport to treat.


thanks for that, very informative  :)
Title: Re: It shouldn't happen at a vets - Panorama. Thursday, BBC1, 9PM
Post by: MrTopCat on July 28, 2010, 09:43:50 AM
Is this programme available on bbc iplayer?
Title: Re: It shouldn't happen at a vets - Panorama. Thursday, BBC1, 9PM
Post by: Steff - Petsearch Bedford HQ on July 28, 2010, 14:14:17 PM
Yes it is, I watched it on Sunday.

I heard about it but wanted to see for myself so I was aware and so I could also make my own opinion.
Title: Re: It shouldn't happen at a vets - Panorama. Thursday, BBC1, 9PM
Post by: Gill (sneakiefeline) on July 28, 2010, 15:46:03 PM
Well, well, well...  :sneaky:

I think I knew what kind of programme this was going to be when they came to the catheter incident which was featured on the trailer. The supervisor asked her specifically if she'd been trained to do it and she replied yes, she had. It was quite reasonable of the supervisor to expect her to not have a problem.  :innocent:

The biggest gripe on the programme was overcharging, which I think a lot of us agree almost all vets try to rack up the bill to some extent if they think they can get away with it. One Medivet practice tried to fiddle an insurance claim (presumably to help the owner) as it was a per condition policy. A dog presented with multiple symptoms and needed multiple treatments but there was one root cause which Medivet tried to cover up. By making three separate claims they did not exceed the policy's annual per condition limit.... Panorama reported them to the insurance company and now the owner faces a huge bill to cover the excess. Nice, Panorama!  :doh:

The programme admitted they did not witness any incidents of deliberate cruelty. Apparently she was under cover for 9 months and worked in 15 different practices and I think they showed around 4 incidents of poor practice. There was one male student whose attitude over a distressed Shar Pei stunk but he was confronted and later apologised. But there was also other footage of good, caring staff. In truth, if they can only find 4 cases over nine months in so many practices, I don't think Medivet have a huge problem.

I think they have got to look again at supervising students get and I don't like their business model. Then again I don't like any chains where staff change frequently as you never get a chance to develop a rapport. Overall I don't think they've proved the case about Medivet's being a bad place to take pets.

And can I say... the struck off vet that they featured... I was really impressed with the way he safely handled some very angry and potentially dangerous animals. Turning around the cat to distract it while giving it a jab was genius. 


Just to elaborate on the overcharging and costs - The profession could and should be more transparent about prescription policies. Most pet owners are unaware of their legal rights with regard to prescription medicines for their pets and are losing out financially as a result.
During a veterinary consultation, if a prescription medicine is recommended as a treatment, a prescription should be offered by the vet as an alternative to purchasing the medications from the surgery. By law this prescription can then be fulfilled by any vet, pharmacist or, usually more economically, by an online veterinary pharmacy.
In many cases pet owners are being engineered into spending far more than is actually necessary by getting treatment for their pets from their local veterinary surgery.
Veterinary prescriptions are charged at a “reasonable fee” which may be as much as £20 and certainly more than the real cost of the treatment.  Many vets further exploit pet owners by insisting on one prescription per medication or refusing to allow repeats. Both these tactics are unprofessional and little short of extortion where one prescription could easily cover all medications required, with repeats marked for a maximum of six months.
In the case of animals with a lifetime condition this can create a massive and unnecessary financial burden for the pet owner while the veterinary practice reaps the benefit.
Very often it is the animals that suffer when owners cannot afford to continue with prescription medications or veterinary diets. If veterinary surgeries are encouraged to act in line with legal requirements to practise an open and fair prescription policy, then pet owners can explore alternative options for their fulfilment.  By shopping around, particularly at online sites (such as www.vetuk.co.uk), owners can access significantly better value medications and special dietary foods for their pets, with the added advantage of delivery to home.
The fact that this issue is not being addressed indicates a complete lack of owners’ understanding of procedures in the veterinary profession which many practices are exploiting to the detriment of the very animals they purport to treat.


I am interesdted who you represent AJB and please can you give us a link to where these legal requirements are published.

Thanks Desley for that link, very helpful  ;D
Title: Re: It shouldn't happen at a vets - Panorama. Thursday, BBC1, 9PM
Post by: fluffybunny on July 30, 2010, 20:30:23 PM
I don't think the issue of prescription/medicine charging is quite as straightforward as that. 

As I see it, my vet needs to work out a sensible pricing policy that covers all aspects of the business.  Yes this may mean that I am charged more for drugs - and in fact I bet the vets can't buy them as cheaply as the online retailers as they won't sell as much - but it is all part of a finely tuned balancing act with the rest of the practice.  If she doesn't make any money, then she can't afford to pay for decent staff, high quality equipment etc.  I am confident that most vets reinvest much profit to provide better facilities, not purely to give themselves lovely long expensive holidays (although good luck to them if they can do that too). 

If every client started getting a prescription and going to online drugs companies, then the vet's profits in this area would dip, and they would have to compensate by increasing costs somewhere else - more expensive consultation or operation fees, for instance.  It's just a fact that vets have significantly higher and more varied overheads than an online drug company who needs little more than a giant cupboard and an internet connection. 

I am not against online drugstores, but I don't think it's a balanced argument to say that the current situation is outrageous.
Title: Re: It shouldn't happen at a vets - Panorama. Thursday, BBC1, 9PM
Post by: Mark on July 30, 2010, 21:28:10 PM
What would make more sense is for things to have a RRP, allowing for a decent mark-up. Some vets charge outrageous prices. I remember my mum who is a retired widow on a small pension, being quoted £48 for a Feliway - and that was 3 years ago. I got her one for about £20. A fair profit is understandable, but some vets seem to pluck numbers out of thin air.

I agree that some of a vets profit has to come from consumables.

I had to do an assigment before xmas about starting an animal business. It was a grooming parlour cum cattery. I put in that it would sell toys, food, treats, grooming equipment etc to make extra money.
Title: Re: It shouldn't happen at a vets - Panorama. Thursday, BBC1, 9PM
Post by: Pinkbear (Julie) on July 30, 2010, 23:16:10 PM
I don't think prescription drug prices were debated or discussed at all in the Panorama programme, were they? I think the bone of contention was based on unnecessary procedures, wasn't it?  :shify:

Interesting that AyJayBee has not been back to visit us. I also see he/she has left other similar posts on other forums.  :-: Anyway, these point are ones we have often talked about here. And we never have formed a concensus about just how much vets take the  :censored: out of owners.  :innocent:

Personally, I think if I walk into a private Vet or even a Doctor, I expect to be charged for those services I use. I don't expect to pay for those services I don't use. If I want my ears syringed I'm willing to pay a percentage of the nurse's wages plus consumables used and a reasonable surcharge for building wear and tear/electricity etc. I'm not going to pay towards someone else having a blood test. If I want Feliway I don't expect a surcharge for a vet nurse because I don't need one. And it's nice that a Vet might have his/her own MRI scanner but why should I contribute towards paying for it if I've never needed it used on my pets? :tired:
Title: Re: It shouldn't happen at a vets - Panorama. Thursday, BBC1, 9PM
Post by: Mark on July 31, 2010, 09:19:46 AM
And it's nice that a Vet might have his/her own MRI scanner but why should I contribute towards paying for it if I've never needed it used on my pets? :tired:

I disagree there. I like the idea that vets invest in equipment. I might not need an MRI scan now, but like the idea that should I need one in the future it is there.

Title: Re: It shouldn't happen at a vets - Panorama. Thursday, BBC1, 9PM
Post by: fluffybunny on July 31, 2010, 10:04:45 AM
I agree Mark.  Can you imagine the uproar if someone was told their MRI scan was going to cost £40,000 because they are the only one to use it and therefore they would have to pay the full cost.  Or that the facility they needed wasn't available locally because clients were only paying for exactly what they use and nothing more, and therefore they'd need to travel a 300 mile round trip with a sick animal to get the relevant diagnostics.  I think it's all about having reasonable equipment available for use by all clients as and when they need it and am happy to pay a little 'over the odds' for my day-to-day stuff if it means that overall charging is reasonable and it supports my practice to stay well staffed and well equipped.   
Title: Re: It shouldn't happen at a vets - Panorama. Thursday, BBC1, 9PM
Post by: Pinkbear (Julie) on July 31, 2010, 10:52:30 AM
What you're suggesting is a welfare state for pets, isn't it? We all contribute and we all have access. A fine, benevolent notion. But what if we found out the NHS had been giving away scanner sessions to BUPA? You need to concider the fact that Vets are private practices who make private profits.
Title: Re: It shouldn't happen at a vets - Panorama. Thursday, BBC1, 9PM
Post by: Mark on July 31, 2010, 11:36:23 AM
So as private businesses, they should be able to charge whatever they like and use the profits for whatever they like?
Title: Re: It shouldn't happen at a vets - Panorama. Thursday, BBC1, 9PM
Post by: Susanne (urbantigers) on July 31, 2010, 11:42:09 AM
Personally, I think if I walk into a private Vet or even a Doctor, I expect to be charged for those services I use. I don't expect to pay for those services I don't use. If I want my ears syringed I'm willing to pay a percentage of the nurse's wages plus consumables used and a reasonable surcharge for building wear and tear/electricity etc. I'm not going to pay towards someone else having a blood test. If I want Feliway I don't expect a surcharge for a vet nurse because I don't need one. And it's nice that a Vet might have his/her own MRI scanner but why should I contribute towards paying for it if I've never needed it used on my pets? :tired:

But we all do that with our taxes dont' we?  I pay for NHS services I havent' used for years (I've visited my GP about twice in the past 10 years), for schools when I have no children etc....  I agree with Mark and fluffybunny - I don't mind what I pay going towards the general running of the surgery because one day I might need those facilities.  The vets that I use is a referral practice and post graduate training centre.  The general practice is done by interns (all qualified vets but undertaking post grad training) but I find it reassuring that the specialist equipment is there if I need it.  I'm sure I pay a bit more than some would pay for procedures (although their prices for vaccinations, neutering etc. seem very competitive) but I'm willing to pay that in order to have access to the equipment and specialist staff should I need it.  When Magpie died, he was seen not just by the vet on call that evening, but by 2 other vets as well, one of whom is  a specialist and senior partner, and I wasn't charged for that.  He was just called in by the vet on duty (or maybe he was just around anyway, I'm not sure) and took a look and gave some advice.  So I got specialist treatment without paying for it.  That sort of thing is worth paying a little extra along the way for, imo.
Title: Re: It shouldn't happen at a vets - Panorama. Thursday, BBC1, 9PM
Post by: Pinkbear (Julie) on July 31, 2010, 12:40:39 PM
So as private businesses, they should be able to charge whatever they like and use the profits for whatever they like?

Yes, of course they should. And equally I'm entitled to decide what service I want to pay for and what I don't want to pay for.  :shy: Quote me a price and I'll either accept or decline. Like any other business. If the price is too high or the quality of work too low, go to another provider.... a bit like you and your painters, Mark.  ;)

The trouble is that some vets aren't operating on the free market and are making life so difficult for those clients who want a choice about what they wish to pay for and how much. If we complain about costs we're emotionally blackmailed into thinking it's the only way to save our pets or prevent suffering. They cannot have it all ways. If they want customer loyalty they need to give the clients a reason to be loyal. The way it is now, with some vets if you need to pay for repeated visits and repeated meds, YOU are the one who ends up penalised over and over by being made to pay over-inflated prices to pay for that client who may only visit the practice ONCE and use equipment that you'll never need.  :doh:

I fell into this one the hard way when I switched vets. Before I gave up medicating Jumpy I was with one practice who made me pay for a series of tests - none of which would make him better. I then was told Jumpy needed meds for the rest of his life 4 tabs a day at a cost of £60 a month. These tabs were £48 a month through Vet UK... but of course if I got them through Vet UK I would have needed a £20 prescription. I wouldn't mind paying an extra 5% or even 10% for the vet service but over 20% mark up is taking the mick. Think of how much extra I would have been forced to pay over the course of 5/10 years!  :tired: My new vet said the tests were irrelevent as we all knew what was wrong with Jumpy and we all knew it couldn't be fixed. He placed Jumpy on a different med - 1 tab per day cost of £35 a month. The same medicine, different manufacturer, lower mark up by the vet.  :sneaky:

So vote with your feet I say.  :shy:
Title: Re: It shouldn't happen at a vets - Panorama. Thursday, BBC1, 9PM
Post by: Ellen2010 on August 01, 2010, 17:41:04 PM
Pinkbear I know what you are saying about the vets mark ups.  I have a cat with renal failure and she is not on Renal diet, she is on ordinary cat meat as long as it is chicken, turkey or cod flavours. To that I have to add Renalzin which the vet last year was charging £34.20 150ml for visited Vet UK and get it for around £18 150ml, then she has lower urinary tract disease to boot so is on Cystease which the vets charged £16.95 for 50 and on Vet UK I get a tub of 100 for £14.95.  Luckily neither are prescription only.  Needless to say since being on these the past 17 months her tests have all shown that everything is within normal range and combined with her attitude when they go to take blood they have decided that unless she deteriorates that they will not carry out any more blood tests. 

Oh and the Vet kept trying me to get my medication from them until I said you can't match the price I pay and have been told that by the head office as was told at beginning of treatment to fetch a copy of what it was costing me so will continue to buy from where I am.  Ended up with one vet as she stabbed my cat god knows where twice not treating my cat and just grabbed my cat, left and phoned their head office up and complained about the vet.  Got told to take her back and they would get a senior partner there to examine the cat to make sure she was fine, he got blood first time and they dropped any charges from both visits and even run the blood tests free of charge.
Title: Re: It shouldn't happen at a vets - Panorama. Thursday, BBC1, 9PM
Post by: littlekitty on August 03, 2010, 10:27:36 AM
I watched this with my OH and we were both shocked at the procedures. The poor dog that they were trying to put the needle into was awfully distressed and all teh nurses could do was laugh.
Shocked at how the vet gave the cat his vaccine (swinging around with the needle sticking in it).
Have never heard of medivet and will not be using them in the future either.
Title: Re: It shouldn't happen at a vets - Panorama. Thursday, BBC1, 9PM
Post by: ayjaybee on August 18, 2010, 17:40:51 PM
I don't think prescription drug prices were debated or discussed at all in the Panorama programme, were they? I think the bone of contention was based on unnecessary procedures, wasn't it?  :shify:

Interesting that AyJayBee has not been back to visit us. I also see he/she has left other similar posts on other forums.  :-: Anyway, these point are ones we have often talked about here. And we never have formed a concensus about just how much vets take the  :censored: out of owners.  :innocent:

Personally, I think if I walk into a private Vet or even a Doctor, I expect to be charged for those services I use. I don't expect to pay for those services I don't use. If I want my ears syringed I'm willing to pay a percentage of the nurse's wages plus consumables used and a reasonable surcharge for building wear and tear/electricity etc. I'm not going to pay towards someone else having a blood test. If I want Feliway I don't expect a surcharge for a vet nurse because I don't need one. And it's nice that a Vet might have his/her own MRI scanner but why should I contribute towards paying for it if I've never needed it used on my pets? :tired:

Hello hello! Sorry not replied sooner - I've been away and not been checked on the forums. Nothing sinister about me representing anyone Gill (sneakiefeline) - I'm an owner of two cats and the same situation applies to me too. I just wanted to show that there is a daily scam going on with the prescription charges at some vets, something that the panorama prog didn't really cover.  I didn't mean to lessen what panorama showed, just to highlight another aspect which directly affects us as all as animal owners. I put it on other forums too as I thought it was important that people who have pets of all sizes knew. I used VetUK as an example because I use them and they do have info on their website which is informative http://www.vetuk.co.uk/prescription-faq-s-page-10/chapter/0 - it also has further links to www.competition-commission.org.uk/rep_pub/reports/2003/478vetmeds.htm, http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2005/20052751.htm, Another website to look at or refer too is  http://www.rcvs.org.uk/ which is the Royal college of vet Surgeons. Hope this helps clear up anything!  :)