Purrs In Our Hearts - Cat Forum UK
Cat Health & Behaviour => Health & Behaviour General => Topic started by: MelB on February 26, 2012, 00:30:40 AM
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Hi there, I'm a newbie and really worried about my senior cat. He's about 18 and his health has been fantastic up to now. I noticed he was losing weight so took him to the vet who ran some bloods and said he was hyperthyroid. She started him on Vidalta 10 mg once daily and he's been on that for about 2 weeks. He was ok at first but he seems really lethargic and disinterested with a spaced-out look about him. He's not eating much either. I am so worried and I don't want to give him his meds tomorrow. My partner says that will affect his blood results if I take him to the vets next week and won't give them a true picture but I'm so worried I can't bear to give him any more. His coat has also gone greasy looking and a bit spiky. I've read a few things online, particularly in the US, about 10 mg being too high a dose to start with. Has anyone else had probs like this? I think his T4 was only slightly elevated and I hadn't noticed much else other than the weight loss, although I think he was a bit restless and vocal so they could have been symptoms I guess.
I've been a bit tearful tonight cos he's my baby and it's started to hit home that he is getting on a bit and that he's not going to live forever. I can't imagine life without him though tbh and I will be devastated if these tablets do him more harm than good. Any advice wd be much appreciated. :Luv2:
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If you look in this section you will find a very recent discussion on this
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Hi MelB :welcome: to Purrs
Sorry it is not under happier circumstances :(
I think a Lot of People find Purrs the same way ( I did :( )
But...This is such a wonderful Busy Forum, and I'm sure once all the other peep's wake up tomorrow there will be
someone to answer your question's
18 years is a Brilliant age ;D and I'm sure every day has been filled with Love from yourself
also Give ( No name Furkid ) a wee pet from me :care:
Also, do not believe everything you read on the net, " sometimes the best thing to do is not to "
Hugs for you
:hug: :hug: :hug:
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Hi there and :welcome: to Purrs
As Helen says many people find Purrs through illness but very much hope your lovely boy starts improving. This is the latest thread on the subject so you will see cats respond differently to the different medications for HyperT. I imagine vet has suggested 3 weeks and bring him back for more blood tests but I'm sure vet will have said to bring him back earlier if he starts to decline?
http://www.purrsinourhearts.co.uk/index.php/topic,40273.msg710447.html#msg710447
Sending every best wish for you both :hug:
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Hi MelB,
Sorry to hear about your cat.
What was his T4 on diagnosis? If as you mention the T4 was only slightly elevated then yes the 10mg is most likely too high a dose. I agree with what you've read because what you describe sound to me like overdosing and it's very possible he's now hypothyroid which is something you want to avoid owing to the impact on his kidneys for one thing. I would call the vet and explain the current symptoms and they should advise you to discontinue the medicaton. In fact I would have a bloodtest now to confirm the current T4 status.
Hope he improves soon!
.
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:thanks: everyone for your responses. It's just nice to discuss things like this with other experienced cat owners. I will post a photo of Toby once I figure out how to do it - he looks much younger than his years! I've never had a cat live to this age so it's all new territory for me and I have to admit that I'm a bit of a neurotic pet owner but that's only cos I love him so much.
I've decided not to give him his meds today. He looks groggy and keeps crying which is upsetting me. The vet didn't give me the exact T4 result but I'll press her for some further info. Another thing I haven't mentioned is that he's been having facial twitches for a couple of years - well these seemed to have increased since starting the treatment so maybe another sign that they are not suiting him.
Anyway will ring the vets first thing tomorrow and just hope my baby is back to his old self soon.
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Our Max had Vitalda started on 15mg a day and that wasn't enough so he was then moved up to 20mg a day and he had very high off the scale readings and stabilised after 4 weeks and had the left hand thyroid removed last Wednesday and the pararthyroid was left and now no more tablets required
If in doubt go back to the vets and get blood tested sometimes the amount may not be high enough to counteract the high readings
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Hi Mel :welcome:
Welcome to Purrs - I joined for almost the exact same reasons you did - our cat was diagnosed Hyper-T a while ago but we have had various ups and downs with her since then, and I have to say all the lovely people on here have been a huge re-assurance and help!
On the topic of Vidalta, its a mixed bag of reactions as you probably have already read, but I would agree that for a 'slightly elevated' T4 I am a bit suprised that you are on 10Mg straight away. When Schmoo was diagnosed her T4 was sky high, but even with that, our vets started her on a low dose and worked up to her current dose - which is actually now 10mg Vidalta.
Felimazole is the alternate tablet for HT, and although its a twice a day tablet unlike Vidalta, the starting tablet is 2.5Mg - so 5mg a day total. But hopefully your vet will have talked you through all this this morning!
Let us know how you got on :hug:
Helen
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Thanks.
Toby's condition has improved dramatically since stopping the Vidalta on Sunday. The vet said I had done the right thing and she will try an alternative. I'm going on holiday soon (hate leaving him :() so going to defer starting the new tablets until I get back - I want to be around when he starts this so I can keep my eye on him! The vet seemed to be happy with this.
Fingers crossed that we will get this sorted in the end.... ;)
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Unfortunately Toby has taken a turn for the worse :(. I had to see the emergency vet last night because he was having head tremors and seemed really weak. The vet said his heart rate was very high and wondered if he had had a stroke. I've taken him to my usual vets today and they are running some bloods and checking his blood pressure.
I'm so upset - he was perfectly fine before starting the Vidalta tablets. As I mentioned previously, the only thing I had noticed was that he was losing weight despite a healthy appetite.
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Hi Mel
Oh no, I'm so sorry to hear this :(
Firstly though - I know its hard but try not to feel bad about putting him on the tablets - you were only doing what was advised, to try and help Toby long term. HyperT if left untreated can cause all sorts of other problems which can be quite serious, so the vets couldnt in good concience leave him untreated.
Its such a shame he reacted badly to Vidalta, but hopefully the vets will be able to review his bloods and see what caused the problems last night and sort it out. It might be his T4 shot up again, and trying him on the alternate pill (Felimazole) might help.
Thinking of you though - I know how horrid it feels when things arent going to plan (we had months of ups and downs initially - and still do), but just keep telling yourself you are doing your best to help him based on the vets expert advice :hug:
xx
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I do hope that Toby will be OK, sometimes a fast heart rate is just fear, as Misa is like that when he goes to see a new vet .
Sending loads of good wishes :hug: :hug: :hug:
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It appears that Toby has had a stroke tonight. He's in the animal hospital and they are going to treat him with oxygen and medication. I've never seen something so frightening. The strange thing is he's been at the vets having bloods etc all day, they said everything was fine including BP. I brought him home, opened the basket and his head just dropped to the floor and he was walking around looking drunk. He then just started falling asleep on the rug in a strange position.
I have never witnessed anything so awful and I feel that this is possibly the end. I'm so upset I can hardly see the screen for tears. I love pets but this is just the hardest part....He has been my baby for 16 years. My partner keeps telling me that it will be nothing to do with the Vidalta but as he was absolutely fine before, I cannot be so sure. Life is so awful at times.
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Very sorry to hear this :hug: Hope he can find the strength to pull through and is able to make a recovery :hug;
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I am so terribly sorry :hug: :hug: :hug:
I hope they can do something to help him
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:hug: :hug: :hug: for you Mel. This is a horrible thing to have happened to you both. But it might have happened even without the meds. Please try to be a good to yourself as you can. You're doing everything you can hon. X
Gentlest pats for Toby.
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So sorry to hear about Toby, I hope he will be ok, sending positive vibes :hug: :hug:
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Oh Mel I'm so sorry, I hope the vets can help Toby :-[
Thinking of you all :hug: :hug: :hug:
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:( I'm so sorry Mel
Keeping my fingers crossed that the vet can help Toby
:hug: :hug: :hug:
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Thanks everyone!
I've just had a call from the vets to say he is improving massively on the oxygen, steroids etc. Apparently he has just wolfed down a full bowl of food and his eyesight is returning! I can't believe this in such a short space of time - he looked at death's door a few hours' ago.
I'm not going to get too excited yet as I know these things can be a massive roller-coaster but fingers crossed .....
P.S. I've just read a quote on this site that said "Its not unknown for sudden correction of hyperthyroidism, especially in the elderly (be it human or animal) to result in a stroke when the body's systems suddenly slow down", although I can't figure who originally posted that information. I would be very interested to communicate with them and find out where they got the info from. I am starting to wonder whether the Vidalta dose was too high and hence the cause of the stroke.
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This is the link to the quote
http://www.purrsinourhearts.co.uk/index.php/topic,23803.msg417812.html#msg417812
Sadly as you will see Jersey girl didnt come back but what Desley said in the last post sounds very relevant. Also earlier in the thread someone says the tablets cant be split and taste foul.
I am so pleased that Toby has taken a turn for the better and hope it continues :hug: :hug: :hug:
The tablets definately cannot be split and have to given at same time of day every day.
Just adding some links although you may have seen these and they are not necessarily very helpful maybe
http://www.fabcats.org/owners/hyperthyroidism/info.html
Next link is very old but I think interesting and is over active not under as stated in link
http://www.catforum.com/forum/38-health-nutrition/125610-underactive-thyroid-cats.html
This is another link from Purrs and Rosella is still an active member and is about the same age as the link above
http://www.purrsinourhearts.co.uk/index.php?topic=16905.0
From what I have been reading am wondering that because the T4 level only slightly elevated, whether Toby is actually hyperT at all and that this is masking something else? I am no expert on this unlike others on Purrs.
Sending lots of good wishes :hug: :hug: :hug:
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Oh thats great news Mel - got my fingers and toes crossed he keeps getting better! :hug: :hug:
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All the very best for Toby poor love, sending hugs for him and hope he's soon much better :hug: :hug:
I know that each case is individual but just to say that I have 2 hyperthyroid cats doing very well on Vidalta and have had other cats - and been hyperthyroid myself. Thyroid very much affects all other organs in the body so it's such a complex illness. I hope that things settle down now for Toby and he makes a wonderful recovery very soon.
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Thanks everyone for your support it's much appreciated :hug:
I've just spoken to the vet and she said he is doing brilliantly - in fact she can't believe how lively he is for a cat of that age! Everything seems to have returned to normal after the stroke. I've read a few posts on other websites about people having their pets pts after a stroke, but on reading up on the subject, it does in fact seem that the prognosis for cats is generally pretty good.
I can take him home tonight - I can't wait to give him lots of cuddles ;D. The house seemed empty this morning without him. I even started preparing his breakfast this morning out of habit!
I guess I will be a bit more neurotic than usual over the next few days, watching for any signs of this happening again. The vet has said it's difficult to know what caused this and he would have to have lots of tests including MRI to confirm a diagnosis. I don't think I'm going to put him through all that and I have to be sensible as unfortunately I don't have any pet insurance!
I have been told that if he continues to have seizures then there is treatment to control this. As long as he is happy and not suffering that is the main thing.
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We have Smudger feral here who had a stroke last November and the vets thought his prognosis would be poor so home we came with some very strong antibiotics and steroids in injection form and now its March his head tilt is far less pronounced and he eats for Scotland and is now walking around a lot more and seems happy in himself so they can recover a lot of tlc and treats worked for us so good luck :hug:
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At some point, when you are both more settled, it might be helpful to make some notes of what happened and when, so you are more prepared in the event that Toby starts to show hyperT symptoms again. Start with what symptoms Toby showed that made you take him to vet initially and go from there.
Also insist on copies of all the blood tests that were done. Just explain you will find it helpful to see these to help you understand what happened. They are surprisingly easy to follow as they give the result and then the "normal" range next to it. I think some can be a little trickier than others as "normal" can differ depending on cat's age. Think normal T4 range gets lower with age. Need also to bear in mind that hyperT cats can sometimes have underlying problems that become more apparent when thyroid more under control. Sorry he is not insured but that would have cost a fair bit given his age.
Following on from Tom's illness and sadly pts a few years ago, I always now request copies of blood tests. I was convinced at the time that UK vets were generally giving too high doses too quickly esp for borderline hyperT cats. I thought that practice had changed tbh. I know Fred was borderline hyperT but vet didn't treat as it was helping his kidney problems.
Am so pleased that he has made such a marked recovery :) :) :)
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Pleased to hear he's picked up :) Go Toby! :hug:
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Brilliant News, So chuffed for ya!! :wow:
Give the wee Mannie a Hug fae me too :Luv:
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Hope Toby is still doing well :hug:
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Hi all
Toby was looking very unwell and spaced out for the first couple of days after his seizure and I have to say I was rather worried about him. However, he really has started to pick up now and he's pretty much back to his old self. I can't believe it and I just wanted to say thanks everyone for your kind wishes :wow:.
The problem I am faced with now is what to do about the HyperT treatment. I still firmly believe that all this was brought on by the Vidalta and if I start a different tablet I don't know whether this is going to happen again.
I know that HyperT is a serious condition but his T4 was only slightly raised and I just can't seem to face giving him something that might cause a seizure - what a conundrum!
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I think its something to seriously talk to your vet about and ask what they would do if it was their cat............that usually makes them think!
Sometimes its better not to medicate but it has to be done with full knowledge of the outcome.
My inclination would be not to medicate this early but to keep a check of the levels and how your cat is acting.
Seizures are a terrible thing to watch and my late Napoleon had them for 2 years plus but they dont remember what happens and cats cant swallow their tongues. They can however do you a lot of damage with their thrashing claws so always wise to have a pillow close to protect yourself but never hold them down, just keep em safe from sharp things.
I used to give Napoleon injections for 7 days after a seizure with a very powerful ab cos it was thought that he had a brain infection rather than epilepsy.
The medicine for epilepsy is very strong and will knock a cat sideways for a month or so after starting , so one really needs to be sure that its needed before going that route.
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My vet doesnt tend to medicatate if T4 is borderline/slightly raised.
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Hi
Just been reading your post. Me and Chelsea are new here but it was your post that prompted me to join. She is 18 in a couple of weeks and has always been healthy but we'd noticed she'd got thin and mentioned this to the vet when she went for her jabs. Turned out she is hyperthyroid (T4 93 against a 19 -50 reference range) and she was put on 10 mcgs of vidalta on 14th Feb only to come off them by the 24th as she was so disorientated and not herself. Slowly we saw an improvement and I discussed herbal remedies and homeopathy with the vet who supported me in going to a herbalist vet who suggested a homeopathic remedy. That arrived Saturday, she had the required three doses and then two yesterday and I ended up taking her back to the vet this morning as she was staggering around and falling over trying to walk.
I've gone from having a feisty old lady full of character if a bit on the thin side to having a rag doll of a cat I've been trying to hand feed and get water down by syringe.
All the vet can suggest (she had a very thorough exam today) is to refer her to a specialist so I'm hoping she holds out until Wednesday when we're off to the Royal Veterinary College.
I just want to know if anyone has tried anything else as the vet reckons she'll have a similar reaction to the other thyroid med.
I'm desperate to get my cat back - she was fine until she went on Vidalta :censored:
L
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I just wanted to send positive thoughts for Toby and for Chelsea.
Our former cat, my beloved Paddy, had a stroke at 15. It was a severe stroke which left him deaf, and it was touch and go for 48 hours immediately after. His head was tilted to one side, he was disorientated and would yowl regularly because he found everything very confusing, and needed a lot of reassurance. Our vet told us he didn't think he would make it, but that it was better and less stressful for Paddy if we took him home, kept him quiet and in a dim, restful atmosphere to see how things resolved.
However, he went on to make a very good recovery, although also being diagnosed with Hyper-T shortly afterwards. Medicating him was our only option, but he steadfastly refused to accept pills, no matter what we tried, and we all got very stressed trying to make the medication thing work.
Ultimately, our vet advised against medicating as the stress was having more of an adverse effect on Paddy. Instead, we had regular 3 monthly checks. He became thinner over time, but following his stroke lived for another five years which, as a few here can testify, were fulfilled, active and happy years. In the end his kidneys failed which was something we knew would happen, but he lived far longer than we initially believed would be possible.
Am hoping this will give you some comfort, and to let you know that sometimes there are more ways than the obvious to approach a problem.
We always said that we would let Paddy set the pace, and quality of life was our main guide.
:hug: :hug:
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Thank you. I've spent the last few days feeling so helpless. She's just been making her way round the kitchen by walking along the walls and then stops for a rest by wedging her head against something to hold her steady.
Vet reckoned she'll last no more than a max six months without the meds but we'll take heart in Paddy's story x
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Louise :hug: Our vet was not optimistic either, and regularly told us he'd be surprised if Paddy didn't worsen "soon" but each time he saw him he expressed anew his surprise at how well Paddy was managing. I'm a firm believer in one step at a time, and taking each day as it comes. :hug:
Paddy would eat like a horse, and would sometimes bring up bile, but on the whole he managed well under supervision.
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Well she came in from the vets, ate and threw it all up this morning. I was asked about "options" this morning and there is no way I'm letting that happen unless it truly is for the best. :thanks:
I'll just keep getting up and checking on her tonight again and then hope she doesn't stress too much on Wednesday morning as it will take us about 45 mins to get to there.
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Topping up the hugs and hoping that Toby and Chelsea have had a better night. :hug:
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Hi Louise
I'm so sorry to hear about Chelsea. Your situation sounds very similar to mine. I have to say I don't know what to do about the HyperT either, as I too think the alternative treatment will have the same effect as the Vidalta. I just wonder though whether 10 mg Vidalta is too strong to start with. I have certainly read a lot of stuff (mainly in the USA) that suggests that the best course of action is to start at a low dose and move up gradually. I wonder whether my Toby became hypotensive in the end because he was so lifeless and whether me stopping the tablet caused a surge in his levels resulting in a stroke. I'ts just a guess and I'm certainly no expert.
Toby is doing really well since the stroke and is pretty much back to his old self, so things might not be as bad as they seem for you at the moment. I really hope that this is the case. I would certainly be interested to know what your vet has to say - you would expect them to know what they are doing at the Royal Veterinary College!
I will keep my fingers cross for you and Chelsea :hug:
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Hi Mel
Thank you!
I have to say, being hypothyroid myself, that doses must surely vary according to the severity of the overactivity and according to the cats size and i definitely think she is hypo.
Chelsea was ok this morning after a really bad day yesterday (she's not the same cat as she was three weeks ago but ok based on recent history) and when I got back this afternoon but has been wandering around half asleep again for the last hour or so and falling over so she has now been put firmly on her bed in the hope she'll have a sleep and stop wandering round.
I'm really glad that Toby is getting on well after his stroke - just proves you can't write a good cat off!!
Will post tomorrow when I get back from RvC.
Here's to Toby!
L
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Well RvC have been fabulous.
It turns out her strange behaviour has been down to a meningioma brain tumour so my baby is currently recovering in intensive care.
Now to sort her thyroid out but I don't think I want to put her through anymore surgery.
All I can say is don't give up and thank god for insurance!!!
Louise
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Oh Louise :hug: :hug: Sending lots of positive vibes for Chelsea's recovery. It must be a relief to know what the cause of her behaviour change was, and trusting all will be well following the surgery.
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:thanks: :thanks: :thanks: :thanks: :thanks: :thanks: :thanks: :hug: :hug:
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Sending lots of good wishes for Chelsea :hug: :hug: :hug:
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Hi everyone
I'm a new member who joined the group today as I was searching for info on the drug Vidalta, and really need some advice and info..
My cat Opal was diagnosed with hyperT 6 weeks ago and was put on this drug...Opal hasn't improved and is lethargic, can hardly walk as she has a very wobbly gait, and I have difficulty getting her to eat...
At the beginning of her treatment, she could walk normally, but I noticed her abnormal gait just a few days after treatment. I took her back to the vet, as I was so worried, and he asked when did this wobbliness start, to which I replied that its strange as its been ever since she started the medication! He decided that her gait was probably due to muscle wastage because of her weight loss, she weighed just 2.3kg! But he felt she was also de-hydrated, and was kept in and put on a drip....After this she was no better, and now the vet said her problems are neurological..!
He never once told me this could be a side effect of Vidalta, and she has steadily gotten worse, rather than improve...
She has gained a little weight, and her coat isn't as greasy as it was, but she looks so awful, and sometimes I look at her and think should I let her carry on like this..
But last night was the last straw as she fell down four stairs..So this morning I researched this drug only to find many people have had similar problems..I spoke with the vet, and raised these concerns, and was told to take her off the drug until Monday...
I have a few issues with the vet which I have to raise. One being her heart is so rapid at 240, and the vet hasn't prescribed anything for this due to the rise is usual with hyperT cats, and the fact that the meds "should" help with this. The vet told me today that at her last blood work her thyroid was normal, whatever that is, but she is still on the 10mg dose of Vidalta..
So as from tomorrow, Opal is off the Vidalta for 5 days, has a very rapid heartbeat, so will be on no medication at all...!
The vet seemed very unconcerned about this, but to be honest I am very concerned, more about her heart..
Any advice would be great..
Thanks
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There is another thread , should be in this section, and will try and bring it up for you.
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Oh that would be great, as I did search Vidalta, but just got this thread
Thankyou Gill
:thanks:
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There are two threads and have brought them to the top for you and have also pmed you.
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sounds very much as if she has been overdosed and become hypo, which is not unusual with Vidalta
sadly there are too many vets who know too little about HyperT - and I'm afraid yours may well be one of them, as he surely should have suggested trying Felimazole rather than taking her off all medication
do look at the Yahoo support group for owners of HyperT cats - you will get a lot of useful information on there, and will find it easier to get the right treatment for your cat if your vet realises you know what you're talking about
having her off the Vidalta meanwhile should help very short term, but I would be very reluctant to go back to it - in my opinion (which is almost entirely from what I've learnt from the Yahoo group) she should be put on a low dose of Felimazole - no more than two doses of 2.5mg a day, and even better, given her reaction to Vidalta, one 2.5mg pill cut in half twice a day to start, given that her T4 came down so quickly on Vidalta - you may well be told you can't cut the pills, but if you use a pill cutter and rubber gloves or tweezers, and don't let the cut bits come in contact with your skin, there is no danger
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Hi Alli,
Like you I found this site whilst my poor old fur baby was having trouble after being prescribed these pills. Before the tablets she was a very lively and loving albeit skinny, 17 and a half year old girl. After being on the tablets, initial dose of 15mg per day she soon became very lethargic and quiet. Her bloods were re-tested and her levels had gone up! So she was prescribed a higher dose of 20mg per day. However before she started on the new dose one night she appeared to me to have a stroke, her back end collapsed and she lost bladder control. Of course I took her to the vets and after a lot of umming and r-ing they gave her a steroid injection and prescribed some heart pills for her racing heart. I took her home and nursed her through the night, making sure she was eating and drinking. The day after she improved slightly and the vet was happy with her so didn't want to see her for another 2 days, during which she improved even more, she was walking again although very wobbly, and she once again became her lovable self. So when I went back 2 days later the vet said all was fine and to start her on the higher dose, which I did on the following day. 2 days later she had another stroke and this time the vet said it was enough, her poor little body couldn't take any more, she had dropped to 1.9kg. So sadly last Tuesday I had to say goodbye to the most precious thing in my life. I told the vet that I blamed these tablets as when she was off of them she improved and as soon as she went back on them that was it. The vet said maybe so! I was so angry I wasn't told of the side effects before I gave her them, if so I would have been more aware of what to look out for, and no way would I have put her back on them. I just wish I'd done the research before hand, as for the past week I've cried more or less no stop as I blame myself for what I put my poor baby through. I'm crying now as I'm typing this which has taken me a few hours to do. Please, please, please, don't put your beautiful Opal back on these horrendous tablets, speak to the vet about an alternative, or if her levels are normal, just let her live her life normally.
I really think something should be done about this as the more I look into it, the more angry I am becoming that our fur babies are suffering because of this tablet!
If you want to ask me any questions feel free to ask, or pm me if you would prefer and I'll do my utmost to help you.
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Sorry, I have trouble with this post as the subject matter is so raw for me still and the events of last year are still very much with me but Chelsea's experience was similar to Smokeys although it was a brain tumour not a stroke which was the root cause.
She had no symptoms of this prior to vidalta and I do have an issue with the vet not picking up on her standing in corners pressing her head against the wall and leaving it for RVC to give her an MRI when they had the capability and could have checked sooner when she was not so weak.
I wish I had pressed RVC for the biopsy results to find out how aggressive the tumour had been as that would have given a clue as to the possible role of vidalta in this.
Thyroid issues aren't that well understood by vet or doctor. It's a subject I have quite strong views on and would urge anyone to, as Kay says, join support groups as the experience of others in a similar situation could well be invaluable.
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Hi Anjie & Louise
Im so sorry to hear both of your devastating news, and I have decided after everything I have read about this drug that Opal will not be going back on it..
The vet told me to take Opal off the drug for 5 days, and put her back on them Monday, which I won't be..So I have made an appointment for Tuesday to discuss other treatment, and also I am going to print off all the bad stories and show them to whichever vet I see..
Its terrible that this medication is allowed to be on the market with so many sad ending stories...I dont think the vet will like our conversation on Tuesday..
Thank you for replying to my question at such a difficult time for you both :(
I appreciate your help, and I will keep you all informed how things go
Allison xxx
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This is all so tragic :(
Please also print off Carols techi stuff from the other thread because to me as a layperson, feel this has something to do with the whole story.
Sending loads of good wishes to Opal :hug: :hug:
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sadly there are too many vets who know too little about HyperT - ....
Kay has hit the nail on the head with this. Whilst It is my personal opinion that Vidalta is subject to more problems than the other oral hyper-T treatments for the reasons that I stated on Anjie’s thread http://www.purrsinourhearts.co.uk/index.php/topic,42835.0.html any of the hyper-T drugs can have these effects if started at too high a dose – which sadly is not uncommon.
The easiest way to explain what happens is to liken hyperthyroidism to drug addiction. Although the drug (or in this case the excess thyroid hormone) is harmful, the body gets used to it and becomes dependent on it. Sudden withdrawal can have very unpleasant and sometimes life-threatening consequences. The greater the amount of drug the addict is taking and/or the longer he has been taking drugs, the greater is the shock to the system when he withdraws . The same is true for the hyperthyroid cat. The higher the thyroid levels, and/or the longer the cat has been hyperthyroid prior to treatment, the greater the chance of an adverse reaction to treatment. Attitudes of vets are changing (thank goodness) but the message hasn’t got through to everybody yet. Some vets still think that a high initial dose is called for in order to correct the problem quickly.
Of course this is an oversimplification and many other factors can affect how a cat reacts to treatment but if they were all started on a low dose and gradually increased as necessary, then I’m sure we wouldn’t have so many sad stories like these. Getting the dose right can take time (and many expensive blood tests) but its worth it in the end.
My heart goes out to all of you who are suffering. :hug: :hug: :hug:
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Allison
Please just keep asking questions. I was new to Purrs this time last year and it was my absolute rock.
I would also echo Carol's view on doseage. Too much of what is, in effect, a downer too quickly would cause a massive shock to the system and with most cats tending to become hyper in their senior years it is probably too much strain on their systems in some cases.
Thyroid hormone was once described to me as the oil which lubricates the systems of the body - too much and your systems work too fast, too little and they rust up. I would challenge the vet on putting Opal on and off medication as she'll swing hyper to hypo and back in a very short cycle. Graves' disease is the human equivalent of hyper and hashimoto's can give you the short term highs and lows where you can feel on top of the world, then tip into hyper then crash into hypo for no external reason.
Keep chatting on here, some people as you have seen have extensive knowledge and can offer practical advice, everyone though will be kind and understanding.
:hug: :hug: :hug:
Louise x
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Is Opal doing Ok without the drugs?
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I think one reason that vets prescribe Vidalta is that it is only one tablet a day (rather than two with Felimazole) which is easier for owners esp with difficult to pill cats. Problem is though that Vidalta doesn't come in low enough dose to start treatment on low dose.
Have to say, I hate Vidalta (due to probs I had with Thomas RIP) altho I know that others on here have had good results with their cats.
My mom's cat Susan (very small cat) was diagnosed HyperT last summer and, sure enough, Vidalta was the opening gambit of vet which I refused and insisted on lowest poss dose of Felimazole. She went Hypo on 2 tabs a day and now takes only 1 tab of 2.5mg Felimazole a day.
Fred RIP had both kidney and borderline thyroid probs. As the hyperT was only mild and actually helping his kidneys, we never did treat the thyroid condition.
It is important that you read as much as you can Allison and get a copy of blood test results. I assume kidneys tested as well as thyroid? As you read up, make notes of questions you want to ask your vet. Each cat is different and will respond in it's own way to treatment. What does however seem to be a common thread though is that medicating from a low dose and increasing as necessary seems to be a safe way to proceed.
This is not a bad place to start reading. Although the site itself is more devoted to kidney probs (CRF), hyperT is quite common with cats who suffer from CRF http://www.felinecrf.org/hyperthyroidism.htm
The vet told me today that at her last blood work her thyroid was normal, whatever that is, but she is still on the 10mg dose of Vidalta.
Have you any idea what the difference was between the result of blood test 6 weeks ago when first diagnosed compared to what "normal" was at last test? If not, you need to find out to get some idea of how much Opal's condition has altered. I understand normal range can vary with age and with each cat and you need to be aware that HyperT can mask underlying kidney problems ..... It's a complicated illness as the thyroid impacts on so many major organs.
Sending every possible good wish to Opal :care: :care: :care: and you for that matter :hug:
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Thanks Louise & Carol for the further info..
Are you saying that as Opal is off Vidalta until Monday that this could be harmful?
Do you think I should get her to the vet tomorrow and get her started on a new medication asap?
I have never had a hyperT cat, so its all very new to me..I just am at my wits end as to what to do for the best..I don't want to make a mistake, and cause her more problems..
I didn't question the vet taking her off the Vidalta for the 5 days, as I do think it has caused her extra problems...I did think that 5 days without the pill would help get it out of her system, and then a re-start with a new drug would be a fresh start...Is that correct procedure??
At the moment Opal seems fine off the the tablet, and definitely isn't so wobbly today, and she was having a little groom earlier, which she hasn't done for a while...I have been wiping her over with baby wipes, and giving a gentle brush through with a soft baby brush.. But she still is looking sad and awful condition.
Thanks for all you help and advice everyone, and I have joined the Yahoo hyperT forum, where I have had lots of advice and help there also..It seems everybody has the same opinions of Vidalta..
I am learning so much from you all, and when I return to the vet, I will be armed with so much info on the illness, thanks to you all :Luv:
THANK-YOU
Allison :Luv:
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Hi Rosella
My vet didn't show or explain to me any of Opal's test results.. The most I have learned is from here and Yahoo hyperT forum..
I initially took Opal to the vet due to she had lost weight quite quickly, and bloods were taken. I asked that they tested Opal for everything, and they just told me that she was hyperT, and everything else was okay.
I am going to ask for the blood results, as she has had the first with the diagnosis, and the 10 days later another lot done when I had to return due to her wobbliness, and not eating...They said the second bloods were all fine, and when I rang this week with my concerns, the vet said in passing that Opal's last bloods showed her thyroid as normal..But I don't know any details as what that means...
Now I know a little more (from here, with thanks) I really think I need to see the vets and ask them to explain to me why they have started her on such a high dose ...Its just all so confusing as they just dish out the meds, send you home, without any explanation....Maybe its my fault for not asking more!!
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Try making a list of what you need to ask and speak to vet tomorrow.............sounds like he is not very helpful and keeps all info to self.
On the results it shows the level of your cats and the normal level so you can see what is high or low.
Get all thew results printed from them , you have paid for them after all.
Why does this always happen at a weekend or worse at a long bank holiday.......sigh
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Thanks Gill
I am going to ring them sometime tomorrow, and hopefully get an appointment for Saturday. And yes you are right I have paid for the right to see the test results...So far nearly £700 worth of the right too!!!
At the moment I am just searching the net for details of the T4 test, so I understand it in a bit more detail...
Just gave Opal a little brush, and now she in her comfy bed
Bye for now and thanks for your help and advice..I really appreciate it xxx
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What I'm saying Allison :hug: is that I really don't like the sound of her being on the off then back on meds again as she'll swing between hyper and hypo. Both can make you feel pretty grotty and it just doesn't seem right.
If you think of hyper as everything working too fast, almost like a spinning top and you always feel hot, you are given meds to slow this down, too much would make that top stop spinning too abruptly and go out of control and your temperature would plunge so meds should, in my opinion, be carefully controlled so that the body gradually slows everything down and there is less of a shock to the system. If it slows too slowly so as to have no effect then you add a bit more in until things work just right and vice versa if you need to speed things up a little.
By stopping and starting the medication poor Opal won't know if she coming or going.
Age, weight, severity of symptom, ability of the body to process the meds are different for all of us and as its a life long condition it's not like taking antibiotics where a short sharp shock is needed.
I've got some links somewhere to thyroid sites for humans. As soon as I get to work I'll dig them out and will PM you as whilst the physiology is clearly different the symptoms are pretty much the same so it will help with a general overview of the condition as a whole.
:hug: :hug:
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This is adverse reactions part of data sheet for Vidalta. NOAH's compendium is an excellent source of info for animal drugs.
Not sure whether this will just confuse matters but you need to be aware this is not a straightforward condition and whether or not to completely discontinue treatment will depend on the degree of the adverse reaction. A qualified vet and your concerned and enquiring mind is best combination to make the decision. In the absence of more information on blood results and the fact that Opal seems to be improving, my inclination would be to discontinue treatment as advised by your vet to give the drug time to exit Opal's system.
http://www.noahcompendium.co.uk/MSD_Animal_Health/Vidalta_10_mg__ACY-amp_ADs-_15_mg_prolonged-release_tablets_for_cats/-58685.html
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just about the only justification for trying the Hills low iodine diet is adverse reaction to medication, but only after Felimazole had been tried as well
I really do feel a low dose of Felimazole is the way forward at the moment
incidentally, I joined the Yahoo group after Trigger had been diagnosed but before any medication had been started, and the information I got from there was so useful when seeing the vet - all blood results are emailed to me now as a matter of routine
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Hi, I am new to the forum and found purrsinourhearts through an internet search for vidalta. Great the site is here! Flossie, who is 2.2 kg now in weight, was prescribed 15 mg daily dose of Vidalta this Monday. Although she only had three doses given, her heart started to race faster, she began to drink much more, had very frequent need to pass stools and had projectile vomiting (which she has never had). I have now temporarily stopped the tablets whilst working out the best way forward. The vet when told of her symptoms since taking the medication didn't suggest any amendment to dose (which I have read should be the case with the drinking more symptom when taking Vidalta). He did however say we would need to consider having her put down if the tablets couldn't be taken. We have already explored the Hills low iodine diet and this also produced the side effect of need to pass very frequent stools. It was very difficult to administer the tablets to Flossie in any case as she is a very independent cat. Any comments would be very much appreciated. Hi to everyone on this Forum from Flossie and Jenny!
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has your vet not mentioned trying her on Felimazole? it has to be given twice a day, but the pills are very small, and easily disguised
I'm afraid some vets in the UK are behind the times when it comes to HyperT - in the US, where there is far more understanding of it generally, Felimazole is always the first drug of choice
the symptoms you describe, though, are classic for HT rather than the treatment of it, and I suspect it isn't the Vidalta causing them - for your vet to be ready to throw in the towel already is ridiculous - HT is not at all uncommon, and is certainly not a reason for a cat to be pts
I suggest you take her to another vet, and ask to try Felimazole - initially on a low dose, as too often too high a dose is given and causes side effects - starting low and increasing later is the way to go
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Hi Kay, Thanks a lot for your reply. Vet hasn't suggested Felimazole and I will now look for another vet and will raise Felimazole as a suggestion, if not raised by vet. Do you have any idea as to the dosage usually started at with Felimazole. :thanks: and best wishes
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I have to Hyperthyroids and both on Vitalda my 15yo feral who has no teeth and drinks her food has her 15mg tablet crushed in her tea not ideal but one needed skin to heal between pillpopping so we went down this road and it works for her my other boy is on 20mg a day and had his thyroids removed but takes his tablets only in M & S pate we tried Felimizole and didn't work for ours and neither could have the radiation treatment as they would not cope being out of the home environment
It can take a bit of time to work but speak to your vet and go armed with research mine listened and we follow what works for our 2
If drinking huge amounts would also check for diabetes as symptoms can be similar in the beginning - I am on my third diabetic so now we know the signs
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Hi Liz, Much appreciate your sharing of your situation with Vidalta and glad it's working for your two. Also thanks a lot for advice re. diabetes, don't think this has been checked and will make sure before moving to another vet. Think I've lost faith in present vet as too quick to suggest pts so will move on and start afresh with new one to explore options. Best wishes Flossie and Jenny
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2.5mg twice a day is the advised starting dose of Felimazole, though many vets prescribe double that
I got 6 weeks worth of it down the throat of my Trigger by hiding the tablets in pieces of Webbox - I made sure it was not in the first or last pieces of the stick, so he didn't notice one of the bits was a bit harder than the others :sneaky:
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Thanks, Kay and much appreciate the suggestion re. how to take tablet. Hadn't heard of Webbox, sure from the reviews Flossie will love the sticks! Will keep you posted with progress with new vet. Flossie seems more comfortable already for not taking the Vidalta. Has Trigger's HT settled with the Felimazole? Hope so..
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Definitely seek a second opinion.
How old is Flossie and is she insured?
The radiation treatment could be an option.
:hug: and :welcome:
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Flossie is just 13 and yes she is insured to £1000. Couldn't increase the cover now as pre-existing before seeking to increase. Is radiation treatment expensive? :Luv: Flossie and Jenny
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I think it costs a bit more than that - I'm
not 100% but I think it's in the region of £2000. Basically she would get a dose of radiation which destroys the thyroid and if it is successful that is that. No more tablets or blood tests. The bill mounts up as she would have to be in isolation in hospital for a while whilst her radiation levels drop.
It is non intrusive and is used in the States all the time
Here only certain veterinary hospitals can do it (the Royal Veterinary College in Herts does it) as it is classed as experimental but it's also a treat that is used for humans with Graves' disease.
At Flossies age I would definitely look into it.
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Thanks a lot for the information, Louise. Flossie is very small (2.2 kg) and has lost weight since having HT. Don't know if this would affect her ability to be considered for radiation treatment?
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The HT makes her lose weight as it speeds up her metabolism.
It will be issues such as kidney problems which would prevent her having the treatment.
It would also mean she is in isolation for a few weeks.
There is someone on here whose car has been successfully treated but I can't remember who. Kay, do you know??
I would have had my Chelsea treated last year in a heartbeat but sadly at 18 she had other complications which meant it wasn't possible.
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it was my Trigger, Louise - I took him to a centre in Wootten-under-Bassett, which was cheaper than Bristol, and the same distance to travel - their isolation period was 14 days, plus two days of tests - it is the hospital stay which bumps up the bill - it cost me £1500, and that was a year ago
because HyperT can give some support to dodgy kidneys, the centres have to be satisfied there is no other underlying disease, so the kidney levels have to be monitored for around 6 weeks while the cat has either Vidalta or Felimazole - if you can find a better vet, Jen, the necessary blood tests should be carried out, and her overall health carefully assessed, whilst bringing down her HT - do you know what the level was?
do make sure you are copied with all blood test results, as it will enable you to use the internet to carry out your own research
my Trigger was fine during his 6 weeks on Felimazole, had no effects from his 14 days of enforced isolation, put up with two 3 hour journeys to get to Wootten and back, and actually came home a little heavier than he went - so all in all it was well worth it for him and me - he was 11 at the time so had a good few years ahead of him, which does make a difference when weighing up the options
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I built my 2 back up using kitten food higher in calories
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Louise, Kay and Liz, Thank you all so much for your advice and support.
Liz: Can any kitten food be used or is there a particular one which is good?
Kay: Webbox now ordered for next time try tablets. I haven't got the blood test results yet but will request them before seeking a second opinion and will let you know the results so far as soon as have these.
Will now progress with the advice from you all and update when sought 2nd opinion.
:Luv: Flossie and Jenny :thanks:
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Jenny
Webbox paste is also a big hit with the girls for tablet taking.
Good luck and let us know how you get on
:hug:
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Louise,
Thank you and shall post again as soon as any more updates. Great to be able to share concerns.
:Luv: Flossie and Jenny
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I use M & S Fish pate for Max's tablets and after trying everything and then some this works and he now sits on the kitchen table waiting for his tablets
When I say I have tried most things I live with a band of very untrustworthy ferals and worming them is on a spreadsheet with who had what and what worked and what failed :shocked:
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Thanks a lot Liz. Life sounds interesting with the ferals. I lived in the countryside when young and we always had 'extra' cats as well as the indoor ones to feed, had 13 altogether at most I recall! Shall try the pate when Flossie next has tablets. :Luv: Flossie and Jenny
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Hello everyone, how spooky there is a comment on this post this week. I came back from my holiday last Saturday to find Smokey's daughter Blue in a bit of a state with a nasty eye infection and her eye full of blood so I rushed her to the vets as soon as I had put down my suitcase. I was told that Blue had suffered a haemorrhage that could have been caused by a tumor behind the eye, and also to be told he thought she had HyperT. I just broke down, I was in such a state. I did manage to tell the vet about my concerns over Vidalta and no way was Blue having them. Anyway, she was prescribed some drops to clear the eye infection and we had to go back 3 days later. So on the Tuesday I saw another vet, one that had treated Smokey, and because there was improvement in her eye she wasn't to concerned about that or the tumor, but was about HyperT. She spoke to me in depth about the condition knowing my concerns and said they would all be fine if I decided not to treat Blue (who btw is 17). I decided to have the blood test done and waited 24 hours for the results.
The vet rang when the results came back and it was confirmed Blue has HyperT, again we spoke on the phone at length, then I decided to go see her face to face. Everything else was fine with the bloods, no kidney probs, no cancer showing up etc. She said to me they usually prescribe Vidalta as it is just a one a day pill, and spoke about an op, radiation treatment etc. I didn't want to go for the op because of the risk at her age, I decided against the radiation treatment because of the isolation, Blue is a lap cat who like lots of love and affection and would suffer on her own, and the vet agreed with that, she said it would be too stressful for her. That left me with non treatment or tablets, and of course I want my fur baby to get better so asked for her to be treated with Felimazole. The vet said that was the best option and decided on a dose of 2.5mg twice a day. She said if I had any concerns whatsoever that I was just to take Blue to the surgery and any vet would see me straight away as they were all as concerned about my welfare as well as Blue’s, how sweet is that! So on Thursday morning I tried to give her a pill and she was having non of it! Smokey was such a star about taking pills but Blue no way! So I got a small piece of bread and rolled it around the pill then put some butter on it and she wolfed it right down. So that is how I have been giving her them. We have to go back in 3 weeks or so for her levels to be checked so fingers crossed they improve.
Jenny, if you voice your concerns to your vet I’m sure they will be understanding and let you try the Felimazole. Please let me know how you get on.
Hugs from Anjie, Blue, Belle and my new fur baby Bonnie.
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Hi Anjie, Really appreciate your sharing of your situation with the Vidalta. Flossie was prescribed a 15 mg tablet once a day, way too higher a dose now I think upon researching. Going to get the blood test results then try another vet. Sometimes the relationship just doesn't gel right with a vet so going with instinct in respect of how they've handled Flossie so far. Always great to hear when a vet is supportive. Shall keep you posted. :Luv: Flossie and Jenny and hugs also to Blue, Belle and Bonnie
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The dosage can time in Vitalda mine are now stable Clio on 1 x 15mg tablet and Max on 20 mg - 2 x 10mg tablets
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My Licky is finally stable at 1x15mg a day which i give him at night as it makes him a bit sleepy so he sleeps through the night and awake all day. He also gets a 2.5mg of heart tablet at night as he has a mild heart condition from the HyperT which is monitored. I suggest with Vidalta that all owners are aware that it can cause strokes etc so make sure your vet is checking blood pressure and heart rate. :)
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Hello! I'm new and am trying to absorb all the different advice on here regarding Vidalta.
My 19 year old cat, Dot Dot, has been put on 10 mgms of Vidalta. No instructions other than "one a day...come back in three weeks."
There was no way I could get a pill down my cat in one go, it had to be crushed which my vet decided was "better than nothing". I asked if there was a different medication.."NO". Having been this route before for many years with my own problem "hypothyroidism" where doctors are just about as dumb as vets....no...dumber! regarding thyroid, I realised I was in for some reading and "site searching", which is why I am here :)
From you I have gathered that; yes,there are rather nasty side effects with Vidalta, that it would probably be better for me to give Dot half in morning and half in evening rather than one dose. She is very knocked out by the medication. Wobbly on her legs, constantly itching,looks very sick and just wants to zonk out really. Not a happy cat at all and I speak fluent "feline" after over 50 years of cat love and communication.
I have heard mentioned Felimazole,Methimazole and Transdermal gel. Can anyone help me regarding these please? Would any of them be obtainable in the UK and is there a chance they would not be so vicious for my poor old Dot? She's very tiny but she does eat and drink quite well.
I really can't see that her life is worth living feeling so obviously ill ( I know how it feels when levothyroxine goes wrong)
I am going to the vet tomorrow with her for her first blood test, after 3 weeks, and, as suggested on here, I will ask for the blood test results.
If anyone can help me on this journey with their experiences I would be extremely grateful. I know 19 is a very good age for any cat and I don't expect wonders but I can't bear to see her suffering because I am dosing her with this ghastly medication. Am I being cruel?Perhaps it's better for nature to take it's course?
:thanks: ellarose
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:welcome:
Hi ellarose, My cat, Flossie, aged 13 is now not taking any medication presently following a few days of taking Vidalta during which she became very dehydrated, had more frequent need to pass stools and rapid breathing (definitely increased symptoms during taking Vidalta than before). From posts on this site, I believe that Felimazole is available here in the UK and am looking to change vets soon and seek their advice regarding Felimazole as I cannot find common ground with present vet. However, it has been interesting to monitor closely Flossie's health since stopping the Vidalta. Presently she is calm, less frequent toileting and good appetite and thirst levels now normal. Flossie is also a tiny cat, like Dot Dot. Just thought I'd share my experiences so far and happy to give any advice, if you have specific questions. Very best wishes sent to you and Dot Dot.
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Hi Jensuz. Thanks for the reply. I will wait until tomorrow and the result of her blood test. I'm only going to give her half a tablet in the morning and see what she's like on that. I'll ask my vet re the other medication and if she can't help me then Dot and I will change vets. I changed doctors to get decent treatment for me so will happily do the same for her.
I'm so pleased to be able to talk to other people who understand the problem. Thank you very much for getting back to me so quickly.
ellarose. :thanks:
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:welcome: to you both. I found Purrs in similar circumstances too so do understand.
Ellarose you can ask for alternative treatments. Vidalta seems to be a preferred option as it is a once a day dose but I think the levels are too high. As you'll know from your own situation there is no one size fits all (I'm hypo too and take cytomel) and the medical profession seem badly informed on the subject.
That said you can't leave a cat hyper for too long.
Kay, Liz and Tiggys Mum have more experience on this than me so hopefully they will pop by soon but if you want to change to Femilmazole then there is no reason why you can't. Unlike Vidalta it can be crushed and you need to give it more than once a day but this allows for a gradual build up of medication.
Good luck.
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I am crushing Clio ferals 15mg Vitalda tablet and have done so for the last 6 months as she has no teeth and I value my hands and other body parts she may be 15 but can revert when she want to I also have her on Complivet and Flumax supplements from the vet twice a day in her other liquidised meals and lots of cat milk and she is stable at 3.75kgs and has just had her annual booster with no ill effects
Max takes his tablets in marks and Spencers fish human pates
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Such a lot of help on here I feel quite emotional! Feels just how it was when I found "Health Unlocked" for my own thyroid problems after which I went from strength to strength and hope Dot does the same.
Dot's problem is that the dose is obviously too much for her so this morning I crushed tablet and will give it to her over the course of the day. It's a slow release pill so suppose that's what it would do normally...only a bit more efficiently! She looks fine so not going to be ill all day again thank goodness. Will certainly ask for different medication and if the vet won't help then Dot and I will be off to find someone who will supply it. Did it for myself and will certainly do it for her !
I'm making lists of all advice given and will be ready for the vet this afternoon at 3.15.
" The best doctor in the world is a veterinarian. He can't ask his patients what is the matter -- he's got to just know. ~ Will Rogers "
Hmmmmm...we shall see!!
:thanks: ellarose
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Also if you have catss from same litter they will more than likely be HT if one is. We had two frok a litter and they both had HT at later year. Its in the genes. X
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Hi Ellarose,
I found this site doing research about Vidalta when my Smokey was prescribed it. She was 18 and went down hill fast after taking it. So when Blue (Smokeys daughter) was recently diagnosed there was no way I was giving her it, so the vet gave me Felimazol and for 2 weeks she has been fine, she has stopped contstantly screaming for food and put quite a bit of weight on. Now this weekend she has been vomiting and is now off of her food bless her. I was told you cannot crush either of the tablets so I have been hiding them in bits of Webbox or chicken. I'm calling to vet today to make an appointment to have her checked out again. Like Dot Dot, Blue is a tiny cat and always has been so any weight loss is major to her. Please keep us informed on how Dot Dot goes on.
hugs
Anjie
x
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hi, Ellarose - welcome to the merry-go-round called feline Hyperthyroidism
I can clear up this one for you - 'I have heard mentioned Felimazole,Methimazole and Transdermal gel. Can anyone help me regarding these please?'
Methimazole is the name given to Felimazole in the US - it is basically the same drug given to humans, and has been licensed later than Vidalta, which is why some vets seem unfamiliar with it - the Transdermal gel is a way of applying the Felimazole/Methimazole by rubbing it into the ear, and is widely used in the US for cats whose stomachs find it difficult to cope with the drug internally - it is not as yet available in the UK though
the secret for all cats with HT to start low and increase the dosage only if the levels do not come down sufficiently over time - Felimazole can be cut but as it is a humangrade drug should be handled with care
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Hi Ellarose, Shall be thinking of you and Dot Dot for the appointment this afternoon. I too have found the support on this site amazing, only recently joined myself, and continue to feel whatever happens I will cope as I can post and chat here. :Luv: Flossie and Jenny x
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Hello Jenny and Kay.
Thanks for the info Kay. I am taking all this down and absorbing!
Went well at the vets. Didn't know vets could be so young...she must have started to qualify when she was about 12!
To cut a very long story short we are waiting for result of blood test to see what is going on. Dot had put on .24 kilos which I think is 8.5 ozs and very good for a cat who only weighs 2.6 kilos. I asked if I could change to Felimazole, which vet had not heard of. She went to ask someone and then told me yes we could change as Dot's side effects were so bad. All in all it was a good consultation...I think the vet now knows more about hyperthyroidism in cats than she did before I went in! Thanks to everyone on here who helped me to get it right for Dot.
Now it's just wait and see what the blood test tells us.
:thanks: ellarose
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:hug:
Very pleased for you both.
You'll learn the longer you are on here that there are some very wise and experienced members and so one of them will always be able to point you in the right direction.
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so far so good then - do ask for a copy of the blood test results, which you are of course paying for - it will help you to get informed advice from other forum members, and off the internet
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Hi Ellarose, Glad consultation went well, makes all the difference to anxiety levels! Shall be here for blood test results. In the meantime, very best wishes to you and Dot Dot.
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I think your name is back to front Ellarose or perhaps it's me ;) :)
There is another thread atm on Felimazole. Here it is.
http://www.purrsinourhearts.co.uk/index.php/topic,43793.0.html
I posted the link to the NOAH fact sheet for Felimazole there but do so again here for ease and also for Vidalta. Use the "previous" and "next" arrow keys to move through the factsheets.
http://www.noahcompendium.co.uk/Dechra_Veterinary_Products_Ltd/Felimazole_ACY-reg_ADs-_Coated_Tablets_for_Cats/-40419.html
http://www.noahcompendium.co.uk/MSD_Animal_Health/Vidalta_10_mg__ACY-amp_ADs-_15_mg_prolonged-release_tablets_for_cats/-58685.html
I think the general consensus seems to be start off with low doses if blood tests indicate it is safe to do so. The idea is to let the body adjust to the meds and slowly increase as dictated by blood tests until they settle within normal range. It can take a while with some cats. Naturally if a cat has very high results, the vet is likely to suggest a higher starting dose.
Felimazole now do tabs as low as 1.25mg so much easier to adjust dosage with Felimazole which is usually twice a day meds. Not so easy with Vidalta which is a once a day slower release med.
Sending every good wish to Dot Dot :hug:
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Ha ha! thanks for you reply Rosella...how strange with the name. It's actually my first grandaughter's first and second names put together. Always use on Internet or I forget who I am!
Yes am starting to feel very familiar with this thyroid problem having had the same troubles myself, and a decent doctor/vet is as important as the medication itself. I am obviously in the hands of a novice vet at the moment and get passed from one to the other and they never seem to READ UP THE NOTES before a consultation so unless I know what is going on they have no idea (I even had to ask her to weigh Dot, so important for such a frail little animal) I think I have scared the pants off the latst one with my questions so no doubt will have a note on Dot's record "BEWARE OF KNOW-ALL OWNER!" They will be drawing straws for who takes me on soon lol!
I will do my research as I have done for myself and have so much help on here from kind cat lovers which makes it so much easier.
I am 100 % sure that Dot was very over medicated with the Vidalta but the blood test will tell me exactly what is going on and, after I asked...and the baby vet had read the instructions on the medication (can you believe that?) then I have been told I may have the Felimazole, which I will certainly try. Must be patient now and just wait.
For the past two days I have crushed one 15 mg tablet up and given it to her three times during the day. She is fine on that so I am very hopeful. Am being careful and use rubber gloves...it's quite an operation but Dot is worth it.
:thanks: ellarose
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did you see my earlier link to the Yahoo group? http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/feline-hyperT/
joining that group is particularly worthwhile for owners whose cats are not coping well with HT medication, or have more than one medical problem
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Thank you Kay I have joined. Just waiting to be accepted. I gave" Purrs in our hearts" as a reference!
:thanks: ellarose
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Hello everyone, Going to another vets for second opinion this morning. Will post how it goes later. Very best wishes all :Luv2: Flossie and Jenny xx
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Hi Everyone, Flossie has had a much better experience at the new vets this morning :) She has been prescribed 2.5 mg Felimazole to be taken twice a day for three weeks and see how her symptoms are during this time. Did ask re. blood test details from previous vet and apparently it only says 'high' for HT on consultation details so going to request actual blood test results now. Vet did put to me the option of having thyroid removed if she stabilises. Any experience of this anyone may have would be much appreciated. Anyway shall keep updating and take care all. :Luv: Flossie and Jenny
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Our Max had his thyroid removed but a small part was in operable so 18 months after the op his symptoms were back so he is on Vitalda 20mg a day and Clio feral due to her nature at times is keeping hers and on 15mg a day
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Thanks, Liz for info. :Luv: Flossie and Jenny
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the problem with thyroid surgery is that there can be ectopic tissue elsewhere, which simply kicks in if the main gland(s) - there are two of them - is removed - if the enlarged gland(s) can be easily felt then surgery might be successful - it was never an option for my Trigger, as although he is naturally skinny several vets couldn't feel his thyroid at all
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Thanks, Kay for your message. That's the problem also with Flossie at the moment. as she is a tiny cat the thyroid can't be felt. Shall keep posting with any updates. 1st Felimazole tablet happily taken mixed with Sheba, so that's a relief. Take care :Luv: Flossie and Jenny
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Hi Jenny
I seem to be in a similar predicament to you. The result of Dot's blood test was that she is being over medicated and I have to collect Felimazole 2.5 x2 per day tomorrow. This means Vidalta was not for her. Spreading it out over the day had been better for her but it was still too much. I have asked to collect blood test results when I collect pills tomorrow. There was some umming and ahhing on the telephone but I will make sure I don't leave without them. The amount this is all costing means I feel entitled to have the results to hand.
Do you know if they can refuse me? I have to take her back in 2 weeks for another blood test and then hope we can have a bit of a rest from vets for a while if she gets to a decent level.
Tomorrow I'm off to the doctor to have my thyroid blood test....all part of the fun lol!
ellarose
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Hi Ellarose, We do very much seem to be on the same path with the treatment for Dot Dot and Flossie. I have asked for blood test results from the previous vet to be requested by the new vet and I will also request them direct so hopefully should get hold of them one way or the other. I'm uncertain of the situation regarding the right to have them but would definitely think we do have. If you do have any problems do post and I'll try to research further. Hopefully, someone else on the forum may have an opinion on this too. Wishing you well for tomorrow and keep me posted re. Dot Dot. :Luv: Flossie and Jenny
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I have asked for blood test results at two different surgeries and had no problems at all
it's really important you know the thyroid level, as if it is not much above the top of the norm, it would be better to start her on half that dose of Felimazole, to see how she goes, given that she is such a small cat
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Provided you've paid for the blood tests you're entitled to disclosure of the results.
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it's really important you know the thyroid level, as if it is not much above the top of the norm, it would be better to start her on half that dose of Felimazole, to see how she goes, given that she is such a small cat
I have to say that, whilst I am very much prone to acquiescing like a lamb to vets usually (coz ya know they "did the time" so to speak), I would stand my ground on this and have to agree with Kay. Surely it makes sense that size of cat and level of blood results are what must direct the dosage :-:
Thanks heavens our vet puts up with my constant queries. Apparently, when OH went to collect our darling Ruby after her dental last week (in my absence in Ireland), he and our lovely vet discussed how I have a tendency to question them both. As if! :innocent:
Given past experience, I would always insist on seeing blood results for HyperT and kidneys. I'm a numbers kinda gal. They make more sense to me than someone else's description of how mild/severe it might be; given that most results give "normal" parameters to compare.
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Hi All, Just following on from recent posts. Could anyone advise if lethargy is a sign to be concerned about when first taking Felimazole. Flossie has only started 2.5 mg today and had one tablet. Although vet has prescribed 2 x 2.5 mg per day, I am concerned to not over medicate as she is so tiny (only 2.25 kg). Will be able to write with more info when have blood tests and, Rosella moggy, thanks a lot for advice posted to also have kidneys results. Also, another query has come up since writing to previous vets for details for insurance claim. The matted fur which Flossie has they have stated will not be included on the HT claim as it isn't related and therefore wouldn't get any help with this cost (£65) as it is below excess level if claimed as separate treatment. However, I have read that this is a symptom of HT. I am intending to query and would much appreciate if anyone has any detailed research knowledge in this respect. :Luv: Flossie and Jenny
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lethargy can indeed suggest a too high a dose, causing a hypo, but this would go back to the giving of the Vidalta, as it wouldn't come on that quickly
as she too is very light I'd suggest cutting the pills in half - too low a dose does a lot less harm than too high a one, and I suspect 2.5mg altogether, in two 1.25mg doses, is the way to go initially
HT does affect the coat, making it look unkempt and spiky - not sure it would cause mats, but if your vet will say it is a side effect surely the insurance would accept that
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Paddy was hyper-T in his latter years, and he was a semi-longhair. He used to get mats round his rear legs and tummy, some of which we had to cut out, as they were too bad to comb out, which he found painful as he got older. He was still self grooming, so we suspected it was a side effect ofthe Hyper T, if that helps?
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Have had results of both Dot's blood tests.
the story so far. She presented feeling terrible and the first blood test results were:
24th Sept 2013 Total T4 = 62.50 nmol/L Normal Range 13.00 - 50.00 H so she was hyper but not desperately so.
She was given Vidalta 10 mg and was not well on it at all. In spite of instructions I crushed tablets and gave some to her twice a day which improved things. At least she didn't seem ill.
After three weeks the second blood test results:
16th October 2013 Total T4 = 9.27 (see above for range etc) So now she's hypo! They have changed her medication to Felimazole 2.5 mg twice daily (thanks to your advice on here...I asked if they would change it) I have been warned about crushing tablets...rubber gloves etc.
Dot weighs less than 2.5 kilos although I have managed to put a few ounces on her. I wonder if she is still being given too much but suppose must do as I am told (I'm being very good so far)
Would appreciate comments from those with more experience please.
Have been given 2 weeks pills and then she will have another blood test. This is a fair test of how she will react to it I suppose.
:thanks: ellarose
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no wonder she reacted so badly - that is a huge drop in thyroid level in a short space of time
personally I wouldn't hesitate to halve that Felimazole dose, as she needs her level to go up at the moment, and she seems to be sensitive to drugs
my Trigger, weighing twice as much, came down from 60 to 45 after 4 weeks on 1.25mg Felimazle twice a day, and my vet, and the clinic offering the radioactive iodine treatment, were satisfied with that drop
and he never had the slightest sign of any side effects
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Thanks for the quick reply Kay.
Can you explain the difference between the two medications?
Seems strange that Dot's levels are so low and still they are pumping medication in to her that lowers it even further. I suppose they know what they are doing? I have to admit don't have faith in either doctor or vet regarding thyroid.
Think I have to stick it out for the two weeks and do as I am told...watch her like a hawk and decrease the medication only if she seems under any type of stress. After that I will feel I am entitled to have an opinion and let it loose!
The next set of blood tests will tell all.
They haven't taken her weight into consideration or her great age (19) and I'm sure it's relevant.
ellarose
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I'm afraid I don't think they have much idea at all about the proper treatment for Dot - being hyper gives some support to failing kidneys, and reversing it so quickly risks causing total kidney failure - to overdose her like that shows a very high degree of ignorance of the condition, in my opinion
if you posted her levels on the Yahoo group they would be begging you not to medicate at all until the level had come up, and certainly not at 5mg a day - I don't feel I have their expertise to say that myself, as I understand it is so difficult to go against your vet
lethargy is the first sign of overdose, but at Dot's age she isn't going to be particularly lively, so it's a difficult one - go by your gut instinct, I'd say, whatever anyone, including the vet, says - keeping her as well as possible is the main aim, and you are the best placed to achieve it
I haven't researched the difference in the medications - I think they are based on the same drug, but Vidalta was formulated for animals, and Felimazole, which is the same as the Methimazole used to treat overactive thyroid in humans, was licensed later for veterinary use, which is why some older vets stick with the Vidalta they first started to prescribe
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Ellarose
You know what it is like to be hypo and how sometimes you are have exaggerated symptoms no matter what you are told about optimal medication?
You also know Dot Dot better than anyone else in the world.
I would apply your knowledge here with Kay's advice and treat Dot Dot gradually and yes weight will play a part in her level of medication.
There is no one size fits all to this.
People respond to the various drugs differently so there is no reason why cats wouldn't.
I would go with Kay's suggestion and build her up slowly.
The difference in the tablets as I understand it is that Vidalta is slow release meaning just the one daily tablet is required but thyroid hormones fluctuate during the day (they are highest at night).
Just like Levo, Armour or anything else you might be taking, sometime a split dose works better (which reminds me!!).
Hope that helps. I'm not the cat hyper expert on here but I do know a bit about human hypo.
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That's it! I've phoned the vet. Can't get in touch with one but have explained my worries to the receptionist who seems to know what I was talking about. She told me to "Stop the medication!" and she would discuss it with a vet and get back to me.
Thanks for the support on here, you stopped me dithering and hopefully will get a good result for Dot. If I hadn't asked for the results as you all suggested I would never have known what was going on.
The "cat fairy" obviously led me to this site!
Will let you know how I get on.
ellarose
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Am glad you have been told to stop the meds altogether.
I read or was told that "normal" T4 range is lower for older cats. You might want to query if that is true with vet. The fact that Dot is lethargic though certainly points towards Hypo.
If Dot shared our home, I would stop meds for maybe a week and try to get my hands on some 1.25mg pills and get money back for the ones prescribed so far. If they don't have in stock (only recently made available), they can order but you can just contact manufacturers and ask for details of where you can buy them. Your vet will of course need to give you a prescription though. It's not fair that you should have to go through all this when you will already be so worried about Dot :hug:
The matted fur which Flossie has they have stated will not be included on the HT claim as it isn't related ..........
Your vets are beginning to irritate me. "A poor and unkempt hair coat" is certainly one of the more obvious symptoms of HyperT to Joe Public and I have little doubt this is what lead to her matted fur >:( Another link for you from a safe source of info. http://www.icatcare.org/advice-centre/cat-health/hyperthyroidism-overactive-thyroid-gland
Actually I have gone back to your original post and I am not clear on Dot's original symptoms that led vet to test her initially for HyperT.
Also was it just a T4 tests or was she also tested for kidneys, liver, diabetes etc. I think some vets refer to it as a geriatric profile.
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Hi Rosella
I was hoping to be able to say I had got Dot sorted out but can't.
After phoning surgery and receptionist telling me to stop medication I waited for the vet to ring back and explain. No phone call.
Phoned again this morning to see perhaps if there was a message...no message and no one knew what I was talking about....a vet would ring back ....no phone call. The vets are closed for the weekend now so won't be able to do anything until Monday.
Dot is comfortable and eating so will just wait until Monday, try phoning again and if no luck will go to the surgery myself.
I obviously have to change vets as this one is useless. Given half a chance they will kill poor Dot Dot. She is old but not ready to go yet and I won't have them hurry her on.
Facts: her T4 level is now 9.27 after three weeks on Vidalta 10mg daily when it was 62.50 (range 13.00 - 50.00). I am then told to give her 2.5mg Felimazole twice a day. Common sense makes me ask why try to get the level down even more when she is now hypo? Or have I missed something?
I'm not doing her any harm am I? I hate taking things into my own hands when I am paying a professional but knowing what a mess doctors can make of thyroid problems and how I've had to go it alone so many times to get good results then I feel I should do the same for Dot.
:thanks: ellarose
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did you join the Yahoo Group, EllaRose?
if yes, I would ask what the advice is as to how long to wait before starting the Felimazole, basically giving the same info as in your post below - the most expert members are in the US, so you won't get an instant answer, but you should hear within 24 hours - ideally Dotdot should have another blood test in a couple of weeks, but it's not very fair on her to keep repeating what is a very uncomfortable experience (though I have to say my Trigger tolerates it very well after having had it done eight times)
and whatever the advice given by the Yahoo group, I guarantee it will be sounder, and based on far more experience, than your vet can offer
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Hello Kay
Yes I have sent all the info to the Yahoo site and will be interested to see what they say. Thank you for pointing me in the right direction. With all the help and advice I have been given I am very hopeful I will be able to do the right thing for Dot Dot.
:thanks: ellarose
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I see Jenny, who is based in the UK, has answered you, Ellarose
as all I know came from that site, I shall leave you in their capable hands :hug:
and now a response from Forrest, who is THE expert on there
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Hi Everyone,
Just wanted to update to present with Flossie and ask for advice re. blood tests. Flossie started on Felimazole in mid October and has so far responded well to the 2.5 mg per day. The vet had suggested 5 mg but I have kept to lowest dose so far and she is much improved. We have another appointment with vet on Monday and I now have the results from previous vet. These mean nothing to me and I would much appreciate advice regarding any information which can be gathered from same. I believe at the moment it is intended to do another blood test on Monday. The results are: alkp 187 HIGH(14-111) alt 715 (12-130) urea 14.7 (5.7-12.9) tt4 >90. Also states at another note-in house test: 90 nmol/L. Hope all well with all cats and their humans. :Luv: Flossie and Jenny
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I'd wait until the new results are in, to be honest, as high T4 - and hers was high - can play havoc with other readings
now the T4 has, it would seem, come right down, any abnormal levels will be more significant - but it's something your vet should be able to advise you about - and posting the results on the Yahoo group for Hyper cats will get you some expert opinions from those who have been there and done that
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Kay, Thanks a lot for the advice and I've now applied to join the Yahoo group. Very best wishes, Jenny and :Luv: Flossie
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Hi Everyone,
Flossie has had vets appointment this morning. The vet decided not to do a blood test as I haven't been giving Flo 5 mg (only 2.5 mg per day), although suggested by vet to give her 5 mg. It has been suggested to try her with 5 mg per day and the blood test will be done in three weeks. Her heart is still beating very fast and a murmur can be detected. Slightly off subject, Synulox 50 mg to be given at half a tablet twice daily has been also
prescribed as Flo has been itching skin where fur was matted and is now gradually regrowing after she tugged it all out over a period of
several days. Should anyone have experience of this medication, please could you respond. I am doing my own research so if any
specific detail I think of interest to know, I will post. Very best wishes, Jenny and :Luv: Flossie xx
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My thought is take control of your vet and tell him;her what you want.........if you want a blood test tell them!
They can recommend but you are the one that decides........yes or no, what they say is not obligatory on you :hug: :hug:
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Really appreciate your thoughts. I made the decision not to go ahead with the blood test as felt would then only have to put Flo
through one again after having the 5 mg for the three weeks. She has actually put on a little weight, is now 2.35 kg having been
2.25 kg last time weighed. :Luv: Jenny and Flossie xx
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Hope her weight keeps on going up :hug: :hug:
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I'm sorry, but to double the dose when she is putting on weight, and seemingly more like herself, makes no sense at all - especially when her skin irritation may well be a side effect of the Felimazole
are you giving 2.5mg in one dose? it is better to cut the pills and give a half twice a day, as they work best if the dosage is kept even through 24 hours - personally I would not increase the dose just because her heart rate is high, as that could simply be down to the stress of a vet visit
I'd carry on with 2.5mg a day, preferably in two doses of 1.25mg, and monitor her weight yourself until you go back for the next vet visit
pity vets don't apparently do the research on feline HT that we can do at the flick of a cursor - but whatever you are told, you are the world expert on Flossie, and you should trust your own feelings about how she is doing
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It’s a great sign that she’s gaining weight. But as well as the signs you’re seeing, getting bloods done would tell you exactly what’s going on with her thyroid. If you’re continuing on the 2.5mg a day I would be asking for blood tests in the next few weeks just to keep an eye on things.
Re. her skin problems. Did this start after she went on the drug? Or before?
My Bailey scratched away all the hair round his neck before he was diagnosed with hyperT and would pull it out in clumps. It stopped as soon as he went on felimazole and his levels came down, so that can be a symptom of the hyperthyroidism
I’m just trying to figure out whether it’s a side effect of the HyperT or if it’s the meds causing it.
You mentioned her heart rate being up. That’s the big concern with this condition. It might be worth talking to your vet about medication for the heart if you’re keeping her on the lower dose of felimazole. I had Bailey on Atenolol short term for his heart until we could get him stabilised. It made a big difference for him.
Really glad she is doing OK and hope she continues to improve.
I’ve been lucky that with two of mine on felimazole I never had any problems – other than, like you, trying to find the right dose!
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Great to have your advice, Kay and Nicky, really appreciated.
Presently my instincts are to continue with the 2.5 mg and post the results of the blood test in three weeks. Don't think the vet will be
very happy with this decision though so may keep it to myself and just get the result for advice on the forum again.
Kay: The advice given by the vet to increase dose to 5 mg was due to the fact that, as you've advised, fluctuations are caused in levels if not
given twice during the day so will try the 1.25 mg twice a day.
Nicola: Regarding the scratching, this has started since Felimazole and is in the area where Flo had matted fur and got the fur out
herself gradually by persistent tugging. It is sore and weeping at times and she nibbles at it. Think it's mainly an irritation from
her pulling out the matted fur so may not be linked to the medication.
Thank you again, so much feel better for being able to discuss on this forum.
:Luv: Flossie and Jenny xx