congestive heart failure - RIP xxx

[Michelle (furbabystar)]

What does your Mum feel? I do understand if all concerned feel the poor old girl's had enough.

My Mum doesn't feel it would be kind putting her through lots of treatment.
Even giving her a pill is stressful, she has to be wraped up in a towel.

Going to try the recovery food to try and get her to eat...but failing that she is going to starve to death which would take some time and wouldnt be nice

[JackSpratt]

What does your Mum feel? I do understand if all concerned feel the poor old girl's had enough.

[Michelle (furbabystar)]

Sorry Michelle  I suppose you mum's vet wouldnt consider referring to a cardiac specialist? just in case there is something that can be done. My vet offered to do that when Sam was diagnosed, but after she drained the fluid and he stablised and began eating again, I decided that it wasnt really necessary, but I might have done if Sam hadnt improved.

I know it was mentioned but She is 17yrs old and the vet doesnt feel it is worth it

[Gillian Harvey]

Sorry Michelle  I suppose you mum's vet wouldnt consider referring to a cardiac specialist? just in case there is something that can be done. My vet offered to do that when Sam was diagnosed, but after she drained the fluid and he stablised and began eating again, I decided that it wasnt really necessary, but I might have done if Sam hadnt improved.

[Gill (sneakiefeline)]

Very sad 

[Michelle (furbabystar)]

Spoken to my Mum....

Its not looking good, she has stopped eating and wont even drink milk now, just having a little water.
Going to try the recovery food tomorrow but think its probably time to call it a day.....rather than force feeding her.

 

[Michelle (furbabystar)]

Hi again, once she is nice and drained to much less fluid, if she's not feeling too well and is weak, ask about her potassium (Swampy's dropped like a stone on frusemide) and if she can hold steady on the other diuretic spironolactone. UK vets don't use it nearly as much as in the EU and USA, not sure why (it doesn't drain as well initially) as it is so much kinder on their body as doesn't drain potassium away.
If you don't get your gelcaps let me know as I now have 100 of them! size 4.
When you get your size 3s won't you let me know how much bigger they are please as the vets have never seen size 3s, only 4 and 1. 1 is huge , for dogs really. 

Ok.....
she has 1/2 a Fortekor and 1/2 a frusemide
couldn't get the both in the size 4 but could in the size 3....
the size 3 is just alittle bit bigger

[swampmaxmum]

Hi again, once she is nice and drained to much less fluid, if she's not feeling too well and is weak, ask about her potassium (Swampy's dropped like a stone on frusemide) and if she can hold steady on the other diuretic spironolactone. UK vets don't use it nearly as much as in the EU and USA, not sure why (it doesn't drain as well initially) as it is so much kinder on their body as doesn't drain potassium away.
If you don't get your gelcaps let me know as I now have 100 of them! size 4.
When you get your size 3s won't you let me know how much bigger they are please as the vets have never seen size 3s, only 4 and 1. 1 is huge , for dogs really. 

[Bazsmum]

Hope once the new med kicks in she will feel much relief! 

[Michelle (furbabystar)]

 I ordered both size 4 and 3 as wasnt sure of the sizes......Spoke to Mums vet and she starts frusemide toorrow
Hopefully she will start to feel more comfortable once the fluid has gone. (i did ask about draining it but the vet said no)

[Michelle (furbabystar)]

You are an Angel Kate.......thanks hun 

[swampmaxmum]

I googled it and found these http://www.value-healthcare.co.uk/store/product_info.php?cPath=21&products_id=107

My vet charges £4.50 for 100 so looks like I've been ripped off!  I read on a CRF site btw that pets prefer the beef gelatin caps to the vegetarian ones. I'd thought the opposite so there you go, what do I know.
You can't put any foul tasting liquid meds in them btw as they melt really fast.

[Michelle (furbabystar)]

A (human) pharmacy can special order gel caps and will have a good pill cutter in stock - I used to work in Superdrug!

Thank You Fire Fox.....that has probably just made my life even easier xxx

[Fire Fox]

A (human) pharmacy can special order gel caps and will have a good pill cutter in stock - I used to work in Superdrug!

[Michelle (furbabystar)]

Thank You so much Kate,
I will ring them tomorrow and see if I can get some. xx

[swampmaxmum]

Hiya Michelle, the gelcaps I have are made by Meadow Laboratories Ltd, Romford Essex. It's a grey container of 100 empty gelatine capsules and the small ones are size 4. If you draw a blank, let me know and I'll get some for you if you want some. I've got to order more myself soon & could split it 50/50. Strikes permitting, I can post them to you, they are very light.

My vet wouldn't drain either Max or Swampy as admitted it was a highly skilled procedure and he didn't know how and he thought it was too dangerous. It also depletes the body of electrolytes etc as the fluid disappears so fast. However, I've read about it being successfully done on the CRF site and also obviously Gillian's vet knew how to do it too for Sam.  Mine were given IV frusemide to drain them initially, then the pills. If it's bad fluid, the vets seem to stay with frusemide (which makes cats and dogs feel unwell and weak as it depletes potassium) rather than the milder spironolactone which doesn't deplete potassium. (American yahoo group are always on about using that one instead of frusemide). Just a thought but has your mum's vet contacted a cardiologist for their opinion?

[Bazsmum]

It must be an awful dilemma, the way to try and buy her some extra time could also kill her! 

[Gillian Harvey]

Well this is what I said to my Mum Gillian but the vet doesnt want to do that because he feels she could have a heart attack at any moment....and he doesnt feel stressing her out is worth it  (???!!!!!!)

To be honest I know what your mum's vet means - the difference with Sam is that he was already at the surgery having a scan when my vet phoned to tell me what she'd found (the fluid) and that she would keep him in to drain the fluid off right away. I didnt really have time to think about it (and I didnt know so much about heart failure then - so didnt know the risks really). However, it has given Sam another year so far and a good one too 

[Michelle (furbabystar)]

Michelle, is it possible the vet drain more fluid off, surgically? Thats what Sam had done and then he went on frusemide to prevent further fluid build up.

Trouble is, until the fluid is gone they feel too uncomfortable to eat - I know Sam's appetite was poor initially, but once the fluid was gone he started eating well again. 

Well this is what I said to my Mum Gillian but the vet doesnt want to do that because he feels she could have a heart attack at any moment....and he doesnt feel stressing her out is worth it  (???!!!!!!)

[Gillian Harvey]

Michelle, is it possible the vet drain more fluid off, surgically? Thats what Sam had done and then he went on frusemide to prevent further fluid build up.

Trouble is, until the fluid is gone they feel too uncomfortable to eat - I know Sam's appetite was poor initially, but once the fluid was gone he started eating well again. 

[Michelle (furbabystar)]

Thanks Kate -

My vets dont seem to do them 

Sorry to be a pain, could you tell me the name of the them and who makes them pretty please

[swampmaxmum]

Hi again Michelle, I get them from my vet who orders them in. They come in a container of about 100 and aren't very expensive. It took me ages to realise that horrible tasting pill giving could be de-stressed!
I also have a brilliant american pill cutter I got from them as most pills will need cutting to fit into the gelcaps. Hope you find them.

[Millys Mum]

Phone a few chemists, when you find a cat lover they will help you source some 

[Michelle (furbabystar)]

Kate bee googling but can't find them....

Where can we get them from ?

[swampmaxmum]

sorry, please forgive me Michelle, I am a bit too frazzled to make sense right now, let alone read properly. Please give my very best to your mum. 

gelcaps are little gelatine capsules that you can put whole or cut-up pills into, then you give the gelcap and the cat doesn't taste the pill.  I cut up (for eg foul tasting) steroids using a pill cutter, then put them in a size 1, the smallest, and it's been a godsend. Size 4 is pretty big, too big for most cats, but size 1 or 2 are very useful. You can always give more than 1 gelcap too if the pill is big. HTH

[Bazsmum]

Oops sorry! I posted earlier that it was your friends cat! 

Hope you mum gets to spend some quality time with her babe! 

[Michelle (furbabystar)]

Oh Michelle, don't lose hope. I know you are treasuring every moment with her & just take a day at a time and it could be longer than you think. It's so hard, I know. It's ok if she is slow. I'm sure she's enjoying your love

Is the other diuretic spironactone (sp?) as that one doesn't deplete potassium. Frusemide made both of mine feel so weak and ill. You could always put it in a gelcap couldn't you so she couldn't taste it?

sending big purrs and hugs   xxx

Hi Kate,

This is my Mums cat...not mine.


Yes think the other tablet is Frusemide....
What are these gel caps ?

[swampmaxmum]

Oh Michelle, don't lose hope. I know you are treasuring every moment with her & just take a day at a time and it could be longer than you think. It's so hard, I know. It's ok if she is slow. I'm sure she's enjoying your love

Is the other diuretic spironactone (sp?) as that one doesn't deplete potassium. Frusemide made both of mine feel so weak and ill. You could always put it in a gelcap couldn't you so she couldn't taste it?

sending big purrs and hugs   xxx

[Janeyk]

aww, hopefully she is still comfortable though 

[Michelle (furbabystar)]

Saw her today -
She has alot of fluid build up but apart from that is ok, just takes things slow. She isn't eating much but then she isn't doing anything.

The vet said she could have a different tablet that would help with the fluid but he said it was a really bitter tasting tablet and the stress it would cause her having it isnt worth it.
His parting words to my mum were "Take her home and enjoy her my dear" 

[Bazsmum]

Aw bless! Thinking of your friend and her darling babe Michelle and wishing them all the best! 

[Michelle (furbabystar)]

She has been back to vet today.

She hasnt improved as much as the vet would have liked her too....the roof of her mouth is still very blue too.

Basically the vet has said to allow her to do and eat what she wants (although she isnt eating much ) and carry on with the fortekor.
He coudnt guarantee that she will still be here at xmas, although he says she isnt in any pain at all which is the good thing

[Gillian Harvey]

Gillian, on your taurine and co-enzyme Q10 supplements, do you have the cat dose per 3 or 4 kgs cat please? If your vet knows about this, you are so lucky as most of them haven't a clue about supplements.

I havent used the coQ10 or the Cardio Strength, my vet was happy for me to try them though. I've just stuck with the fortekor, diuretic, rutin and taurine combo because it just seems to be keeping him well and stable. Sam weighs about 3.6/3.9 and I give him 500mg of taurine per day. Most of the dosages I found out from the feline heart group and holisticat.

[Fire Fox]

The vet I saw with Max when he had congestive heart failure and kidney failure said that the cardiologists all treat it with fortekor and diuretic combos.

Gillian, on your taurine and co-enzyme Q10 supplements, do you have the cat dose per 3 or 4 kgs cat please? If your vet knows about this, you are so lucky as most of them haven't a clue about supplements.

Many GPs don't have a clue about optimum nutrition for humans either!! I think there is just too much to know with medicine, more so for veterinary medicine as each species of animal is different.

[swampmaxmum]

The vet I saw with Max when he had congestive heart failure and kidney failure said that the cardiologists all treat it with fortekor and diuretic combos.

Gillian, on your taurine and co-enzyme Q10 supplements, do you have the cat dose per 3 or 4 kgs cat please? If your vet knows about this, you are so lucky as most of them haven't a clue about supplements.

[Janeyk]

The leaflet says for heart disease in dogs and renal insufficiency in cats but I don't see why it would help cats as well - it basically opens up arteries so blood can flow more easily.

I know, strange isnt it.

I wonder if its just be that it hasnt been made legal for cats (like with the matacam a few years ago)

I enquired why Pep was on Fortekor (I thought it was for CRF) and was told, by several peeps that it was originally formulated for heart probs but they found it also help kidney probs.

[Gillian Harvey]

It is licencesed for cats with CRF - don't know about license for heart failure in cats, but is licensed for heart failure in dogs as that is what is was originally intended for.

[Michelle (furbabystar)]

The leaflet says for heart disease in dogs and renal insufficiency in cats but I don't see why it would help cats as well - it basically opens up arteries so blood can flow more easily.

I know, strange isnt it.

I wonder if its just be that it hasnt been made legal for cats (like with the matacam a few years ago)

[JackSpratt]

I wasn't sure if you were feeling terribly pessimistic when it was written.... Hope the info helps. 

[Michelle (furbabystar)]

Do you mean useful or was that done on purpose....?

  I meant useful (god i'm thick at times)

Thanks for all the info, will pass it onto my Mum xx