Topic: Re: Ripleys Thyroid (Read 7075 times)

Desley (booktigger) · « **Reply #21 on:** August 22, 2009, 20:58:50 PM »

Carol, have pm'd you what me and JAne were talking about - I know Neo Mercazole used to be used for cats, but that shouldnt be crushed either.

One other thing to remember regarding cutting/crushing tablets is that it isn't just about how it is released into the cats system, it can affect the owner too, as you are risking exposure to the ingredients and they can work on our thyroid and cause us to have thyroid probs and it is also a suspected human Teratogen, so women of child bearing age should be incredibly cautious using this, I do have a friend who had issues conceiving after treating a hyper-t cat, it could just be coincidence, but it might not. I dont know if the same stands for Vidalta

Janeyk · « **Reply #20 on:** August 21, 2009, 21:50:14 PM »

Quote from: CarolM (Wendolene) on August 21, 2009, 21:30:32 PM

Quote from: Janeyk on August 21, 2009, 19:07:41 PM
I don't know about cats but Carbimazole stabilized my thyroid which was very high. I took it for nearly 2 yrs and had regular blood checks (still do) the dosage was gradually reduced and I have not relapsed since - touch wood.

There's nothing wrong with carbimazole per se Janey - its putting it into a controlled release format that I object to. Once you've done that you've introduced a lot of unnecessary variables and at that point having to cope with yet another variable, the metabolism of carbimazole to methimazole, just adds to the problem. A few years ago neither Vidalta nor Felimazole were available and vets used to prescribe the 'human' carbimazole (which is ordinary tablet) and was actually easier to use than either of the veterinary products now licensed because its easy to split, and can be crushed and mixed with food and doesn't have the nasty bitter taste that felimazole has.

I'm glad Ripley is doing better

Right I see, yep my 2 cats were on the same tablet as myself I never crushed it though but it did have a taste to it I thought.

CarolM (Wendolene) · « **Reply #19 on:** August 21, 2009, 21:30:32 PM »

Quote from: Janeyk on August 21, 2009, 19:07:41 PM

I don't know about cats but Carbimazole stabilized my thyroid which was very high. I took it for nearly 2 yrs and had regular blood checks (still do) the dosage was gradually reduced and I have not relapsed since - touch wood.

There's nothing wrong with carbimazole per se Janey - its putting it into a controlled release format that I object to. Once you've done that you've introduced a lot of unnecessary variables and at that point having to cope with yet another variable, the metabolism of carbimazole to methimazole, just adds to the problem. A few years ago neither Vidalta nor Felimazole were available and vets used to prescribe the 'human' carbimazole (which is ordinary tablet) and was actually easier to use than either of the veterinary products now licensed because its easy to split, and can be crushed and mixed with food and doesn't have the nasty bitter taste that felimazole has.

I'm glad Ripley is doing better

Janeyk · « **Reply #18 on:** August 21, 2009, 19:36:13 PM »

Glad to hear that Ripley seems better and that you have received some info. It's really quite strange actually because vets seem to have rather opposing views about thyroid meds, Desley and I heard were discussing some negative info we heard about Felimazole the other day. I am taking Pep for his thyroid bloods checking next week and I'm going to have a good chat with my vet about what I have heard regarding this subject.

ripleysmum · « **Reply #17 on:** August 21, 2009, 19:14:32 PM »

I contacted Intervet today, the pharmacutical company that make Vidalta, and I got a reply from a Nikki Morgan, veterinary support officer, this was her reply

Dear Lydia,

Thank you for your e-mail. Ideally Vidalta should not be spilt or broken and you would need to discuss dosing with your Vet as Vidalta is available in a lower mg strength. If your vet needs help with your cat's particular case then they can give the Veterinary Support Group a call on 01908 685685 as 30 mmol/l is within the euthyroid range and we would not expect to see signs of Hypothyroidism.

Hope this is of help.

Nikki Morgan RVN MBVNA
Veterinary Support Officer

So as you can see, getting conflicting messages, she says in her email that with a T4 of 30, she doesn't expect to see signs of Hypo T, but Ripley definately went this way, she's ok now though, eating more and more alert and active. I think what I'll do is wait until next Wednesday, then ask for Ripley to go onto a different medication.

Janeyk · « **Reply #16 on:** August 21, 2009, 19:07:41 PM »

Quote from: CarolM (Wendolene) on August 21, 2009, 18:37:26 PM

Quote from: ripleysmum on August 20, 2009, 17:18:28 PM
I also asked HER about cutting Vitalda, see said "Let me check the data sheet" !!!!!!...she came back and said, no i can't be cut!!! !!!! But i have heard from other people who have rang the manufacturer of Vitalda that it can be....

Both those statements are true. The Data Sheet does say not to cut it but if you ring and ask they will tell you that although it is a controlled release tablet the coatings that make it controlled release are applied to the granules before they are compressed into a tablet rather than after compression and therefore it can be cut. So why do they say don't cut it? I've no idea

Personally I think Vidalta is a disaster and whoever decided to market a controlled release product for Hyper-T needs shooting. The theory is that controlling the way in which the medication is released gives smoother blood levels. BUT, and its a big BUT, in cats with hyper-T (or any other species for that matter) the hyper-T speeds up just about all bodily processes, including transit time through the gastro-intestinal tract. This can cause the tablet ( or part of the tablet) to be eliminated in the faeces before it has had time to be absorbed when the T4 levels are high. Therefore it doesn't work so you increase the dose. Same things happens again so you increase the dose again. Then it works, and in doing so it slows down the gastro-intestinal transit time. So now ALL of the increased dose is being absorbed and you are overdosing in a big way, so you have to stop treatment and then you are back to square one and it all starts over. IMO it may work for cats who are only mildly Hyper-T but for those whose T4 is high the difficulties of stabilising the dose are enormous. The fact that it contains carbimazole, which has to be converted to the active metabolite imethimazole, also confuses the issue because the rate of metabolism iis affected by the degree of Hyper-T. The whole thing has too many variables and is far too complicated. I would NEVER even consider using it.
Felimazole (which is methimazole) is a much more straightforward option. Its not problem-free (nausea can be a problem) and stabilising the dose will still take time but you have a much better chance of getting there than you have with Vidalta.

Sorry to rant and it probably doesn't help you with your immediate problem but as you may have guessed its something I feel very strongly about. I hope you get it sorted soon for both yours and Ripley's sake.

I don't know about cats but Carbimazole stabilized my thyroid which was very high. I took it for nearly 2 yrs and had regular blood checks (still do) the dosage was gradually reduced and I have not relapsed since - touch wood.

CarolM (Wendolene) · « **Reply #15 on:** August 21, 2009, 18:37:26 PM »

Quote from: ripleysmum on August 20, 2009, 17:18:28 PM

I also asked HER about cutting Vitalda, see said "Let me check the data sheet" !!!!!!...she came back and said, no i can't be cut!!! !!!! But i have heard from other people who have rang the manufacturer of Vitalda that it can be....

Both those statements are true. The Data Sheet does say not to cut it but if you ring and ask they will tell you that although it is a controlled release tablet the coatings that make it controlled release are applied to the granules before they are compressed into a tablet rather than after compression and therefore it can be cut. So why do they say don't cut it? I've no idea

Personally I think Vidalta is a disaster and whoever decided to market a controlled release product for Hyper-T needs shooting. The theory is that controlling the way in which the medication is released gives smoother blood levels. BUT, and its a big BUT, in cats with hyper-T (or any other species for that matter) the hyper-T speeds up just about all bodily processes, including transit time through the gastro-intestinal tract. This can cause the tablet ( or part of the tablet) to be eliminated in the faeces before it has had time to be absorbed when the T4 levels are high. Therefore it doesn't work so you increase the dose. Same things happens again so you increase the dose again. Then it works, and in doing so it slows down the gastro-intestinal transit time. So now ALL of the increased dose is being absorbed and you are overdosing in a big way, so you have to stop treatment and then you are back to square one and it all starts over. IMO it may work for cats who are only mildly Hyper-T but for those whose T4 is high the difficulties of stabilising the dose are enormous. The fact that it contains carbimazole, which has to be converted to the active metabolite imethimazole, also confuses the issue because the rate of metabolism iis affected by the degree of Hyper-T. The whole thing has too many variables and is far too complicated. I would NEVER even consider using it.
Felimazole (which is methimazole) is a much more straightforward option. Its not problem-free (nausea can be a problem) and stabilising the dose will still take time but you have a much better chance of getting there than you have with Vidalta.

Sorry to rant and it probably doesn't help you with your immediate problem but as you may have guessed its something I feel very strongly about.

I hope you get it sorted soon for both yours and Ripley's sake.

clarenmax · « **Reply #14 on:** August 21, 2009, 09:34:32 AM »

I was told to cut the Vidalta tabs in half with Max as he wasn't coping well on a tablet every other day, and the vet wanted a smaller amount but a constant one, there's so much conflicting information I'm not surprised you're frustrated sweetie

Is there another vet you can talk to the practice? If you're not happy with the advice you're being given, I'd definitely get a second opinion, even if it means going to another practice

Desley (booktigger) · « **Reply #13 on:** August 21, 2009, 08:25:42 AM »

If you check Noah compendium, it does say that Vidalta shouldnt be cut or crushed, and if you need a smaller dose, a different medication should be tried, but normally you leave them off meds for a couple of days till they get their appetite back and then start them on something else. But, if her values have gone down so much, then that is probably the reason she is off colour, as she doesn't need such a high dose, and it is reducing her T4 too much. Is there another vet in the practice?

Millys Mum · « **Reply #12 on:** August 20, 2009, 19:16:22 PM »

Im not sure of previous thread but is it the vidalta making her ill? Could you try felimazole instead? Sometimes what suits one cats doesnt suit another

Imo any thyroid treatment shouldnt be cut or crushed

Janeyk · « **Reply #11 on:** August 20, 2009, 17:58:32 PM »

Tbh I wouldn't worry too much, did she check his heart rate etc? I think your vet is saying to keep off for for a reason obviously because he seems much better not on them (and his bloods were stable) and then I would think she will check his bloods again and see how things are going - is that what she said she will do? I can understand your concerns though. If he has been better not taking Vidalta and his thyroid hormones have risen again she will then probably suggest trying a different drug.

If you are really dissatisfied with your vet all I can only suggest is you change vets but I would try and talk to her first and ask lots of questions, can you do that? It's difficult fo us to say really because your vet will have all the results etc. I don't know whether you can cut Vidalta, I keep Pep's whole because his fosterer crushed them and they didn't work so I leave them whole but I would follow what your vet says so she has the exact records of what's going on

ripleysmum · « **Reply #10 on:** August 20, 2009, 17:18:28 PM »

Yes and i am really upset and angry and bewildered, and everything else, SHE (the vet) said to keep Ripley of Vitalda until next wednesday ( that will be 8 days off meds) to QUOTE "See how she goes", then make an appointment to see her again. In the meanwhile Ripleys T4's are gonna go sky high, her kidney function is gonna decrease and her liver enzymes go up !!!!, no doubt she will get Cystisis again. I also asked HER about cutting Vitalda, see said "Let me check the data sheet" !!!!!!...she came back and said, no i can't be cut!!! !!!! But i have heard from other people who have rang the manufacturer of Vitalda that it can be....I could cry, we are going to be back at square one again, and it's my cat that is suffering throughout all of this (and me). You guys on here know more than she does, and she gets paid a fortunate for giving me naff advice !!!!

I am spoon feeding my baby every couple of hours,tending to her every need, worrying myself silly and SHE can't see that. Yes Ripley does seem happier since being of the meds and eating much more, but it's bittersweet as i know her levels are going to go up again.

Shall I just cut the vitalda in half and ignore what SHE says, I feel like i am stuck between a rock and a hard place!!!!!!

Janeyk · « **Reply #9 on:** August 20, 2009, 16:38:14 PM »

Any news yet?

ripleysmum · « **Reply #8 on:** August 20, 2009, 15:30:45 PM »

Quote from: Desley (booktigger) on August 18, 2009, 08:16:49 AM

Welcome to Purrs. If her levels are down to 30, her meds will probably need adjusting, as a level of 30 doesnt normally require medication (unless your scale is different, my vets scale is 55 at the end, so anything from 40 upwards either needs a more comprehensive test or meds). When is she goign to the vet?
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i am ringing the vet back at 3:50 this aft to talk to her so will keep u all posted

Janeyk · « **Reply #7 on:** August 20, 2009, 14:00:52 PM »

Hi Ripleysmum,

I have split the second half of the welcome topic to this section so it gets more attention

ripleysmum · « **Reply #6 on:** August 20, 2009, 12:51:41 PM »

Quote from: Desley (booktigger) on August 18, 2009, 08:16:49 AM

Welcome to Purrs. If her levels are down to 30, her meds will probably need adjusting, as a level of 30 doesnt normally require medication (unless your scale is different, my vets scale is 55 at the end, so anything from 40 upwards either needs a more comprehensive test or meds). When is she goign to the vet?

The scale the vet used is between 16 and 60. Rips has been of the meds for 2 days now and she has started eating now and being more active, just like she was before starting `Vidalta, but i know her T4's will have gotten high again, so back to square one basically

Bazsmum · « **Reply #5 on:** August 18, 2009, 17:38:33 PM »

Quote from: ripleysmum on August 18, 2009, 10:37:16 AM

I wondered that too, anyway vet said the meds can sometimes mask other problems such as kidney and liver so thats what i will find out today.

Good luck for the results!

ripleysmum · « **Reply #4 on:** August 18, 2009, 10:37:16 AM »

I wondered that too, anyway vet said the meds can sometimes mask other problems such as kidney and liver so thats what i will find out today.

Janeyk · « **Reply #3 on:** August 18, 2009, 09:56:08 AM »

I wonder whether the drop in Ripley's thyroid function could be contributing to this lethargy and loss of appetite? from my own personal experience once the thryoid levels start to fall you do feel much different from being really hyper and having this huge appetite to feeling chilled out, not as hungry and quite sleepy - infact I am watching for this change with my Pepper. Sometimes if levels keep falling with humans they do block and replace if they suspect the thyroid may rise if they reduce the tablet dose. Not sure whether they do this with cats though.

ripleysmum · « **Reply #2 on:** August 18, 2009, 09:44:13 AM »

I have just returned from the vets and again told her my concerns, about Ripleys apathetic nature and poor appetite, i told her i had been doing lots of research and her answer "my cat has ben on Vitalda x amount of years and she is happy", well maybe she is but i'm not. Anyway she has taken bloods to check for Liver and kidney function and she will ring me with the results this afternoon. She did mention something about maybe reducing Ripleys dosage to every other day, but to be honest, i wasn't really listening as i was a bit taken a back by her attitude, she was in a mod cos 2 vets had called in sick whilst i was waiting and she is on her own, well thats her problem, no need to be bolshy with me!!!!. Anyway Ripleys weight hasn't changed, lost no more, gained no mre.

Desley (booktigger) · « **Reply #1 on:** August 18, 2009, 08:16:49 AM »

Welcome to Purrs. If her levels are down to 30, her meds will probably need adjusting, as a level of 30 doesnt normally require medication (unless your scale is different, my vets scale is 55 at the end, so anything from 40 upwards either needs a more comprehensive test or meds). When is she goign to the vet?

Author Topic: Re: Ripleys Thyroid (Read 7075 times)